I swear to god.

[Zachrulez]

That changes if, say, every time Jake uses that only to ever prove that he's telling the truth. That is: as code for "I never lie when I say this" in an almost confirmable manner. At that point is changes to a trust tell in the same way "red text of truth" is.

I would assume you mean confirmable rather than almost confirmable.

The problem with "trust tells" is that in order to enforce a ban on them you need certainty that the player with the trust tell has no intention of ever taking advantage of the tell as scum. I'm not sure how you enforce that, because I could see myself building up a "trust tell" just for the ability to exploit it as scum.

I mean even if the player is holding to the tell over 50 games or more, at what point do you make the judgment that they will never exploit the tell as scum? They still could at any point in the future.

[Zachrulez]

At the point a player exploits a trust tell in even one game they've deliberately compromised that slot in that game through outside influences and should be banned or punished in some way. Just because they

could

somewhere down the line use it to 'conf-town' themselves as scum is meaningless.

Except that it isn't a trust tell if you're using it as either alignment. In both cases you're attempting to argue you're town.

Also meta gaming is technically bringing in an outside influence to a game.

[Zachrulez]

But it only stops being a trust tell once you actually use it as scum. If I used a trust tell 'properly' for 50 games and then used it as scum in my 51st game. It was still a trust tell for those first 50 games.

Also this is a very good point. Just because someone violated their own trust tell eventually didn't mean it didn't operate as a trust tell before that point.

But it doesn't if the intention to only use it as town never existed does it?

And a "trust tell" doesn't become a 100% reliable way of determining alignment at it's birth point.

That's the problem, it's not a trust tell unless it guarantees that you're town. I think it's dubious to argue that a 100% guarantee that someone is town because of something they do in game exists.

I'm not arguing that this kind of behavior is desirable to see exist. (Players that create 'trust tells' to get town reads they otherwise wouldn't.) I just find it difficult to define how you police that. Because I could invent a tell that "guarantees" I'm town when in reality I'm looking for an advantage when I'm scum. (I could birth the tell from my town games and use it at the first opportunity as scum for example.)

At what point do you define an action or statement as a trust tell, and how do you make the judgment call to punish it? That's where I struggle with this.

[Zachrulez]

Maybe you can punish people who fail to reproduce the tells when called on to as scum and intentionally get lynched to preserve the tell, on the fact that they're playing against their win con?

I can't see how you can punish a player when they're playing as a town alignment though.

[Zachrulez]

But it only stops being a trust tell once you actually use it as scum. If I used a trust tell 'properly' for 50 games and then used it as scum in my 51st game. It was still a trust tell for those first 50 games.

Also this is a very good point. Just because someone violated their own trust tell eventually didn't mean it didn't operate as a trust tell before that point.

But it doesn't if the intention to only use it as town never existed does it?

And a "trust tell" doesn't become a 100% reliable way of determining alignment at it's birth point.

That's the problem, it's not a trust tell unless it guarantees that you're town. I think it's dubious to argue that a 100% guarantee that someone is town because of something they do in game exists.

I'm not arguing that this kind of behavior is desirable to see exist. (Players that create 'trust tells' to get town reads they otherwise wouldn't.) I just find it difficult to define how you police that. Because I could invent a tell that "guarantees" I'm town when in reality I'm looking for an advantage when I'm scum. (I could birth the tell from my town games and use it at the first opportunity as scum for example.)

At what point do you define an action or statement as a trust tell, and how do you make the judgment call to punish it? That's where I struggle with this.

There are myriad ways that are really only confusing in MD threads. But to name one: purporting to create a trust tell is creating a trust tell, regardless of whether you intend to actually honor the trust tell.

What if you're purporting to create a trust tell as scum? (I'm having trouble seeing how that could practically be done, but assume it could.)

[Zachrulez]

What if you're purporting to create a trust tell as scum? (I'm having trouble seeing how that could practically be done, but assume it could.)

I would really need an example to be able to answer that question.

The basic problem is this: some people will gladly increase their chances to win as town in exchange for decreasing their chances to win as scum. The reasons for this varies (overall win rate increases, want to be the good guy, hate to be falsely accused, etc.), but setting up or purporting to set up a system that makes that trade-off damages the integrity of our games. And that's an existential problem for mafiascum as a whole, which is why we act on both real and faked trust tells.

The main reason I'm so interested in this is because I tend to rely on my meta as town when I play because there's a pretty big gulf between my play with the alignments.

I'm not really interested in deliberately creating a trust tell(s), but kind of concerned that referring to my meta gap might be seen as trying to use a trust tell?

[Zachrulez]

Are you purposefully doing stuff as scum in order to be able to rely on your meta when you're town? I gather not.

Generally speaking, referring to meta, particularly in the vague open to interpretation way that is most common, isn't going to get you in trouble.

No. I don't

deliberately

play in a way that makes my meta obvious. What I'm worried about is people seeing said stuff as intentionally creating a trust tell.