What happened to Vanilla Cop?

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Brian Skies
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Post Post #57 (isolation #0) » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:35 am

Post by Brian Skies »

In post 56, Ether wrote:Not really, unless you also want to rename gunsmiths to be "gun cops" and encryptors to be "daytalk enablers."

I think encryptor is fitting for its role, but gunsmith bugs me. By definition, a gunsmith is closer to an inventor that gives a player a gun. But here, it's closer to a security guard with a metal detector.
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Post Post #59 (isolation #1) » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:44 am

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Gunsmiths have enough precedent at this point that it shouldn't be an issue for anyone on this site. But I still think it's a horrible fit for its role since it doesn't actually do anything its name suggests it should (as in making, selling, or repairing guns).
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Post Post #61 (isolation #2) » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:48 am

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In post 46, Kagami wrote:
kagami's role PMYou are a
Spastic Hummingbird Wizard
. Each night you may visit a player and learn if that player has a role that would cause alignment investigations to give misleading results.


Oh, my turn to claim? I'm a GF/Miller Cop.

I'm now really disappointed no one's made this a thing yet.
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Post Post #63 (isolation #3) » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:01 am

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Only because it's an incredibly ambiguous role that doesn't actually do anything as far as catching scum is concerned unless you're checking for fakeclaims, which we already have plenty of (flavor cop, name cop, vanilla cop, role cop in most instances, etc).
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Post Post #73 (isolation #4) » Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:21 pm

Post by Brian Skies »

Or change neighbors to roommates.
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Post Post #74 (isolation #5) » Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:42 pm

Post by Brian Skies »

I actually misread the description for the Spastic Hummingbird Wizard and thought it applied to all investigative results, but I find your rebuttal interesting and I still don't think it's completely terrible.

In post 64, Kagami wrote:No, it has clear pro-town utility.

As do most investigative roles, especially the cop. Hiders and IC's are also inherently pro-town.

In post 64, Kagami wrote:A miller will likely claim early, so it can confirm that player as innocent, and anyone else it would get a positive on is likely a godfather.

The problem with it is that it's inherently deceptive. The existence of the hummingbird wizard implies that these is a GF in the setup. If there isn't, then he, and the rest of town after he flips, will be looking for a GF that doesn't exist.

If there is a GF, then it's the GF who is unfairly deceived. He believes he is supposed to draw an investigation, when he is in fact highly vulnerable to it.

While a lot of players will claim miller early, I think you're disregarding that some players actually won't claim it and hope to make it through the game without having to worry about it. I also know that at least one or two players have openly admitted to preferring this route as you may get to skip the whole "Is he actually a miller or gambiting scum?" discussion.

While it will imply the existence of a miller or a godfather (and I guess any other role that may affect alignment related investigative results whatever those may be), I don't think it implies that one or the other has to exist as long as you have at least one of them. Granted, a lack of a miller claim will imply the existence of a godfather, but if the Spastic Hummingbird Wizard decides to claim or softclaim early, the godfather can take this as a cue to claim miller instead.

As far as a GF being deceived, what are they being deceived about? Until the town becomes aware that a godfather or a miller should exist, the godfather should still be playing like a godfather. Also, as long as you're compensating the scumteam in return and trying to keep the game balanced elsehwere, it shouldn't become that big of an issue since you're just changing the way the role interacts with the other roles in the setup, not how the players should be playing them. A cop that can only find the godfather should also have a lower chance of finding scum than a regular cop since there's only one scum member it can identify.

I'm also not fond of players trying to draw investigative results as a godfather and don't particularly care if they get lynched for it. It's rewarding if they can avoid the lynch, but it's something that doesn't bother me that much if it ends up backfiring for them because town would have had enough reason to just lynch them outright.
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Post Post #77 (isolation #6) » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:48 pm

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In post 76, Kagami wrote:My personal opinion is that a player should be able to work out a sound strategy for playing his or her role as soon as the PM is received, based on a reasonable model of typical game design.

I think any setup where scum can work out a sound strategy to win just because of a role PM they received is poorly designed. It's also one of the reasons why many players dislike cops, godfathers, and hiders.

In post 76, Kagami wrote:If a player has a role like godfather, which is essentially "you probably win the game if you draw a cop result," I expect the player to aim to be investigated by a cop. If the setup punishes that, it's a design error.

If the town lets a scummy godfather win just because they were checked by a cop and came up innocent, then that town never deserved to win as that's generally poor play. There's a reason godfathers tend to appear in games with cops in them.

In post 76, Kagami wrote:Not claiming miller in post 1 is just foolish, or intentionally aiming for a pro-scum meta. If a miller is investigated, the damage is probably game-losing. Claiming it also makes you conf-inno if there's a town rolecop in the game, and provides evidence that you're town even if there isn't.

As much as I'd love to argue with you over whether it's better to claim miller in post 1 or not at all (I belong to the former group but that's because I'm not confident I can pull off the latter myself), I think that belongs in a different topic. Also, as long as someone who decides to go the latter route is playing to his wincon and being actively pro-town and giving the town reasons to read them as town and not be investigated in the first place, I don't see the issue. Mass claims should happen before lylo situations anyway.

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