New newbie setups

[ConSpiracy]

After we discussed the Leadership of an IC most of the people complained about the newbie setup: F11. I agree with the F11 setup becoming a bit boring and their being incredibly swingy. On top of that I recall Mr. Flay saying somewhere the F11 favored scum, so it may be a good idea to start brainstorming about new possible newbie setups. Because the other thread was made for another purpose I made this thread to specificly discuss new newbie setups. I am by no means an expert in balancing games, but I can make some suggestions:

Info and protection

1 informative role: Cop, Tracker, Watcher, Roleblocker
1 protective role: Doc (other PR is macho), Jailkeeper, Bodyguard
OR
2 alignment confirmed masons

And

2 mafia goons
5 VTs

It is just a start, but I think it is possible. The informative role can't out himself since he doesn't know what the active/protective role is and the protective roles are basicly just helping town a bit. The only problem would be the swingieness with the power roles, since a tracker is worse than a cop, the same is for the bodyguard and the doc/jailkeeper. Note that roleblocker usually counts as a protective role, but is purely informative in this game.

Teaming up

2 PRs, all in combination with another: Cop-Bodyguard, Tracker-Jailkeeper, Doc-macho Roleblocker, Hider-Watcher, aligment confirmed masons
2 mafia goons (they know the PR combination)
5 VTs

It negates the swingieness form the other proposal, since the combination of power roles are determined at start. To solve the claim problem of the scum team, they know which combination is used. The problem with this setup is that the Power Roles will be put in a leading position since they have far more information than the VTs. However that may not be a big problem, since the power roles aren't leading the town in the F11 that much either.

Both setups are far from ready to play, but they are good starts to think about new setups. Feel free to discuss either my proposals or proposals made by others.

[Vi]

I'm not sure F11 is "incredibly swingy", although there are certainly variations that favor Town more than others.

Info and Protection, for instance, is just as swingy (based on what roles get selected) and has the massive drawback of leaving scum with no chance of a safe counterclaim. Plus they either have to hit at least one power role within the first two Nights, or they're in trouble. This says nothing of the results the power roles can provide, i.e. a blocked kill or an investigation result.

Teaming Up looks similarly abusable. Cop-Bodyguard should have the Cop and Bodyguard claim immediately, and have the Bodyguard target the Cop. The Town gets confirmation on the Cop, the Bodyguard, and whoever the Cop investigates... in a 9 player game. Optimum scum play is to counterclaim Bodyguard and hope for the best. In the Hider-Watcher setup, the Hider claims and calls all targets in advance.

[zoraster]

I think it's pretty swingy, Vi.

Getting a particular setup

This is the most apparent. If a setup is balanced with a cop, there's really little chance that it's also balanced with... well, nothing. It is bizarre to me that people defend the mountainous setup if they think the other setups are in any way balanced.* Town has won 32% of mountainous games and 45% of cop+doc games. Perhaps THE most important factor in determining whether you win, then, is whether you got town or mafia and on which side.

*Of course, they're not balanced... except maybe cop+doc+rb but that's not really the discussion we're having right now

Within each setup

The swing here is pretty massive. Given that each power role is pretty powerful, a quick death or outing of the game's cop swings the game pretty hard. Similarly, a quick death by a roleblocker in the cop+doc setup is an almost a sure-fire town win.

[zoraster]

Yeah the problem with the suggestion above is that it doesn't really solve the problem. Cop, Watcher, Tracker and Roleblocker are NOT interchangeable. It's not Conspiracy's fault, but this type of design laziness is something that a good reviewer wouldn't allow, yet we treat it as perfectly acceptable within F11.

Anyway, let me think on the challenge Vi. It's a sizable one because there are a lot of different demands beyond the normal balancing. It needs to be pretty basic, it needs to not be too swingy, it needs to be something that ICs and SEs can explain, and it needs to balance 7v2, not an easy task.

[hitogoroshi]

Is there some sacrosanct reason for 9 players? I'm mulling on possible alternatives, and I'm wondering if that's a constraint for traditions sake or if there's a good, concrete reason for it.

[zoraster]

Is there some sacrosanct reason for 9 players? I'm mulling on possible alternatives, and I'm wondering if that's a constraint for traditions sake or if there's a good, concrete reason for it.

Well, going smaller just makes matters worse. Going larger has the problem of making the games last quite a bit longer, increases the complexity for players involved.

But all those would be okay with me if I had a good answer to this, and I just don't know:
Do more games not start because we lack Mods, ICs, SEs or Newbies?

If it's Mods, ICs or SEs, then going with a larger game (11 or 13 players, for example) would help (assuming no one demanded more ICs because we're upping the total number). If it's newbies, then going higher causes a pretty large problem. I think a fair number of newbies sign up for a game gung-ho, but then it takes a whole week or more to get them a game, and by then their enthusiasm is gone. I've heard the argument that we shouldn't want those people here, but I think that's far too broad.

[Vi]

Is there some sacrosanct reason for 9 players? I'm mulling on possible alternatives, and I'm wondering if that's a constraint for traditions sake or if there's a good, concrete reason for it.

Newbie games are for people to try a sample game on this site and see if they like it. If they don't, they can leave. There's no other reason; the ridiculous three-week deadlines are for allowing time to replace flakers. Now consider that nine-player games finish more quickly and mess over fewer people if they get ruined than, say, 13-player games.

They're "trial-size", if you will.

Perhaps THE most important factor in determining whether you win, then, is whether you got town or mafia and on which side.

Without disagreeing, this is hardly unique to F11.

Within each setup
The swing here is pretty massive. Given that each power role is pretty powerful, a quick death or outing of the game's cop swings the game pretty hard. Similarly, a quick death by a roleblocker in the cop+doc setup is an almost a sure-fire town win.

But power role swinginess is in every game, as is the swing in who gets which role. You have to balance to average play.

The idea behind F11 is that while each variant is not necessarily balanced, the group of the four together may be. In particular, it allows the scum to falseclaim and it prevents the Town from being able to make assumptions about which power roles are in the game. This is a huge correction over C9.

Do more games not start because we lack Mods, ICs, SEs or Newbies?

It varies. For the most part VRK is good about getting games started quickly, so it's only rarely because of a lack of newbs. The other three tend to be missing based on however the title of the Newbie Queue Thread changes. Back when I was modding, it was a lack of mods, usually.
On a side note, I would rather toss either SEs or ICs from consideration altogether, tbh - one can usually do the other's job.

[zoraster]

Without disagreeing, this is hardly unique to F11.

Well, that's probably true. But that's why my suggestion wasn't to go to a normal setup, but rather simply have four setups we think are balanced.

But power role swinginess is in every game, as is the swing in who gets which role. You have to balance to average play.

The idea behind F11 is that while each variant is not necessarily balanced, the group of the four together may be. In particular, it allows the scum to falseclaim and it prevents the Town from being able to make assumptions about which power roles are in the game. This is a huge correction over C9.

First, yeah. I guess I agree I don't know how to remove the power role swing from the game entirely, so that's probably not a great point for or against changing the system

Second, while I understand the reasoning behind "the four together may be" balanced idea, I think it's flawed for two reasons: (1) it's clearly NOT balanced over all four games and (2) that's not a very fun or equitable way to view it. The idea that it's overall balanced doesn't exactly comfort me as town in mountainous. I didn't have a chance to in any way influence that. It might as well just be a coin flip whether I win or lose. And while it may be "balanced" (even though it's not), it's not balanced in a way that has anything to do with game play.

On a side note, I would rather toss either SEs or ICs from consideration altogether, tbh - one can usually do the other's job.

I wouldn't be opposed to just scrapping ICs all together. I don't think we actually lose all that much.

[Vi]

Second, while I understand the reasoning behind "the four together may be" balanced idea, I think it's flawed for two reasons: (1) it's clearly NOT balanced over all four games and (2) that's not a very fun or equitable way to view it. The idea that it's overall balanced doesn't exactly comfort me as town in mountainous.

I didn't have a chance to in any way influence that. It might as well just be a coin flip whether I win or lose.

And while it may be "balanced" (even though it's not), it's not balanced in a way that has anything to do with game play.

Wait. Did you just equate drawing mountainous with a Town loss in the bolded? Take that back and try again.

It's also balanced in a way that has EVERYTHING to do with game play; specifically, it weakens the power roles, strengthens scum from "somewhat helpless", and brings it closer to mountainous. Whether that's the good kind of balance or not (if nothing else it's better than follow-the-Cop in terms of requiring more than a brain stem) is arguable, but it's certainly part of balance.

The other problem is that while I can accept that I might be expecting too much from Towns, theoretical 50% balance is honestly lame. Pie E7 may be theoretically balanced between Town and scum but that's because most games DO come down to a coin flip (well, counterclaims). Improving the Town win rate will push the setup more toward THAT, which is a step

down

from where we're at.

---

Suggestion.

M. Goon
M. Roleblocker
~vs.~
Cop
50% Doctor, 50% V. Townie
5x V. Townie

*No Follow the Cop
*Potential for safe Doctor claim
*Cop

[mastermind]

You should also keep in mind that the newbies have probably only played a couple games of mafia at most, and adding complex roles (tracker/jail keeper)/rules might confuse them and become disinterested. I feel like having a good newbie game experience is to just learn how to play all the basic roles (town, cop, doc, goon). It might be boring, but the newbie forum is just to learn how to play the game and to get accustomed to the forum.

[TheButtonmen]

After we discussed the Leadership of an IC

most

a handful of the people complained about the newbie setup: F11.

FTFY.

I agree with the F11 setup becoming a bit boring and their being incredibly swingy.

Explain how it's swingy or boring*?

On a side note, I would rather toss either SEs or ICs from consideration altogether, tbh - one can usually do the other's job.

I wouldn't be opposed to just scrapping ICs all together. I don't think we actually lose all that much.

Absouluty disagree, I think most of the problems we have with the newbie queue is due to the concenentration of newbies in the games, we need more experienced players in them not less.

*If you claim it's because there isn't enough PR's I will some how develop the power to slap you through the intertubes.

[Glass]

I think that F11 is fine. Swinginess is part of what makes it NOT boring. The doc might save a NK, the roleblocker might be lynched day 1, the cop may get himself lynched day 1. Every time different things can happen, and it teaches newbies to adapt to different situations. The mountainous setup may be maf-sided but the mafia can't just relax because they don't know it is a mountainous; they still have to waste their kills going PR hunting instead of killing townies for their play.

Maybe I am a pessimist but whenever I draw VT in F11 I always assume that it is mountainous, if a cop shows up with a guilty, cool. But in no way do I expect anything besides my scumhunting to find the mafia. I personally think that is what we should be going for, teaching newbies that they need to rely on their scumhunting instead of PRs.

[popsofctown]

I greatly approve of 5VT/2scum/2mason being in the mix

[ConSpiracy]

Info and Protection, for instance, is just as swingy (based on what roles get selected) and has the massive drawback of leaving scum with no chance of a safe counterclaim. Plus they either have to hit at least one power role within the first two Nights, or they're in trouble. This says nothing of the results the power roles can provide, i.e. a blocked kill or an investigation result.

I forgot the fake-claim part, my bad.

Town has won 32% of mountainous games and 45% of cop+doc games.

These are the numbers I wanted. Scum wins in 66% in one of the four setups. That is far too much.

You should also keep in mind that the newbies have probably only played a couple games of mafia at most, and adding complex roles (tracker/jail keeper)/rules might confuse them and become disinterested. I feel like having a good newbie game experience is to just learn how to play all the basic roles (town, cop, doc, goon). It might be boring, but the newbie forum is just to learn how to play the game and to get accustomed to the forum.

Well, we talked about it in the other thread and one of the reasons we are lacking ICs is because the setup is a bit boring and the same every time. On top of that cops and docs aren't the only power roles in the other games, jailkeeper/tracker/watcher are used the same amount nowadays.

Explain how it's swingy or boring*?

There aren't enough PR's . No actually, the setup is the same every time. I think it would be good getting some variation in it. Standard games as Little Italy have variation in it, too.
It's swingy because there is a huge difference between the mountainous and the cop/doc/rb setup.

Suggestion.

M. Goon
M. Roleblocker
~vs.~
Cop
50% Doctor, 50% V. Townie
5x V. Townie

I think it is better thinking about the fake-claim, but is this just not close to removing the mountainous setup in F11?

[TheButtonmen]

Explain how it's swingy or boring*?

the setup is the same every time. I think it would be good getting some variation in it.

Relevant.

It's swingy because there is a huge difference between the mountainous and the cop/doc/rb setup.

That's not what swingy means and you just complained

how it had no variation.

[Vi]

On a side note, I would rather toss either SEs or ICs from consideration altogether, tbh - one can usually do the other's job.

I wouldn't be opposed to just scrapping ICs all together. I don't think we actually lose all that much.

Absouluty disagree, I think most of the problems we have with the newbie queue is due to the concenentration of newbies in the games, we need more experienced players in them not less.

Nobody said we should remove experienced players from games.

On top of that cops and docs aren't the only power roles in the other games, jailkeeper/tracker/watcher are used the same amount nowadays.

Watcher isn't used much.

I think it is better thinking about the fake-claim, but is this just not close to removing the mountainous setup in F11?

Not really.

Removing the mountainous setup in F11 and changing nothing else means the scum will know when there is both a Cop and a Doctor, because there will be a Roleblocker.
The setup I put up doesn't have the chance of no Cop, which would hurt Town win rates more than no Doctor.
The setup I put up may have a Cop+no Doc+Roleblocker in the same game, which can't happen in F11. The uncertainty of whether there is a Doctor is part of the balance.

---

Masons in a Newbie game sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen - the good kind normally, the bad kind if the newbies think it would be okay to talk via messenger or IRL during the day.

[Zachrulez]

If we're willing to go down to 8 players, I would suggest licence to kill as a potential setup for newbie games. There's no follow the cop issues in the game, they seem to generally run smoothly and are pretty well enjoyed. Hell, the setup even bypasses RVS. (Which is massive death in games in general, particularly when run by less experienced players.)

I'm in no way suggesting the elimination of F11, (only to have it supplemented with other setups) the real issue for me is that the frequency of playing only that setup in the confines of newbie games wears kinda thin. (As far as what the setup is INTENDED to do it serves it's purpose.)

[Twistedspoon]

Masons in a Newbie game sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen - the good kind normally, the bad kind if the newbies think it would be okay to talk via messenger or IRL during the day.

this

[ConSpiracy]

Explain how it's swingy or boring*?

the setup is the same every time. I think it would be good getting some variation in it.

Relevant.

It's swingy because there is a huge difference between the mountainous and the cop/doc/rb setup.

That's not what swingy means and you just complained

how it had no variation.

Yeah, same with cops and docs, mafia fake-claiming them... Not very much varation.

Oh right, I used the wrong word. My bad. The F11 is swingy by means of town/scum-favored. Mountainous is far worse than having cop+doc

Watcher isn't used much.

It isn't? Well it should be used more then. I think it a good way to learn town reads. I bet that watcher can be as good as a cop if somebody is good at picking town reads.

Removing the mountainous setup in F11 and changing nothing else means the scum will know when there is both a Cop and a Doctor, because there will be a Roleblocker.
The setup I put up doesn't have the chance of no Cop, which would hurt Town win rates more than no Doctor.
The setup I put up may have a Cop+no Doc+Roleblocker in the same game, which can't happen in F11. The uncertainty of whether there is a Doctor is part of the balance.

You are right. Maybe this setup is a better way to start thinking about the newbie setup. What would you think of this as an improvement of yours:

2 roles out of these: (cop 25%, doc 25%, roleblocker 25%, vanilla 25%)

EDIT: no duplicates

1 mafia goon
1mafia roleblocker
5 VT's

- Cop can't out himself
- fake-claims are fairly easy
- all setups are fairly the same with only "doc+vanilla" being underfavored

Maybe there could be put in some other roles, such as tracker/watcher/jailkeeper, but I am getting the vibe from the players posting in this thread that those roles aren't really good for newbies.

[Powerrox93]

2 roles out of these: (cop 25%, doc 25%, roleblocker 25%, vanilla 25%)
1 mafia goon
1mafia roleblocker
5 VT's

I like that set-up. Not to unpredictable, but still a good way to introduce someone to mafia

[Empking]

2 roles out of these: (cop 25%, doc 25%, roleblocker 25%, vanilla 25%)
1 mafia goon
1mafia roleblocker
5 VT's

I'm pretty sure that there's all ready a similar (but better) game like this already. It is straight up better than the current set up I'll grant you that.

[Lord Fonzi]

2 roles out of these: (cop 25%, doc 25%, roleblocker 25%, vanilla 25%)
1 mafia goon
1mafia roleblocker
5 VT's

- Cop can't out himself
- fake-claims are fairly easy
- all setups are fairly the same with only "doc+vanilla" being underfavored

Maybe there could be put in some other roles, such as tracker/watcher/jailkeeper, but I am getting the vibe from the players posting in this thread that those roles aren't really good for newbies.

That's "Two Of Four B7," with the addition of a mafia RB and the slight tweak of allowing duplicates.

[ConSpiracy]

You are right, I read "Two of four".
Differences:
- Miller instead of VT. I think VT would be better though for fake-claim purposes. And since millers can be quite confusing.
- 7 instead of 9 players. Getting out the miller and getting in the mafia RB makes 9 player plausible in my eyes.

And I forgot to say that, but duplicates weren't allowed. Those would make the game confusing and some duplicates are a bit overpowered (2 cops or 2 docs)

[Lord Fonzi]

There was A7 (my initial suggestion) and B7 (Kelly Chen's variant with the miller replaced by VT). Yours looks like B7. I actually quite like the possibility of duplicates. Town can't automatically rely on counterclaims. Doc-doc isn't actually broken with an RB. If both are obvtown AND the roleblocker dies, it's pretty much unwinnable, but that's a pretty extreme case and also relies on one scum player playing very badly and two town playing very well. Even cop-cop isn't unwinnable for a scumgroup with a roleblocker. Very hard, granted, but the mountainous setup is equally hard for town. The only difficulty would be dealing with the multiple roleblockers floating around.

Ed: Maybe add a one-shot vig and make it 20/20/20/20/20 which reduces the possibility of the extreme results? Cop-cop would be 1/25 rather than 1/16.

[zoraster]

Vi:

Is it really a bad thing that mafia will be able to tell whether it's a cop+doc setup or not? I mean, it gives them some guidance for fake claiming, but I think that's a trade town will take to get rid of mountainous.