Fonzie's Guide to Early Game Survival for Newbies

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Fonzie's Guide to Early Game Survival for Newbies

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:44 am

Post by The Fonz »

HOW TO AVOID BEING AN EASY LYNCH

+ Explain, don't offer excuses. You didn't make that argument because 'I'm a newbie and I didn't know better.' You made it because you thought it was the right/protown thing to do based on the information and experience you had at the time. Why was that?

+ No matter how convinced you are that X is the scummiest player in the game, if you're the only one voting X while Y and Z have five votes each, you really ought to be offering an opinion on which of Y and Z is scummier than the other.

+ Be civil. Mafia players are human, and all else being equal they'd rather get rid of the guy who thinks they're a bunch of retards who dribble over their keyboards than someone who disagrees with them, but can see where they're coming from.*

+ Vanilla townie claims will leave you looking like a 'low-risk' lynch. People will always tread slightly more carefully around you if there is the chance you might be a power role. Even if you don't get lynched as a result of a premature claim, you've helped the scum narrow down where the actual PRs are. By the same token, 'noble' statements such as 'I don't mind getting lynched, it's better than no-lynch' are pretty much de facto vanilla claims (since lynching a cop, for example, is very much worse than no-lynch). Avoid them.

+ If you are forced to claim your role (which should rarely happen unless you are within a couple of votes of being lynched, or there is an impending deadline) go look at your role PM, or even better have it open in another tab while you write your claim. Claim your exact rolename, and try to explain as clearly as you can what any abilities you have do as well as your flavor justification for them if there is any. If this information comes out piecemeal, it may look as if you came up with each part of the claim separately.

+ Aim for a level of activity that is within the normal range for the game. By this, I don't even mean that you should necessarily avoid being the most active poster in the game (although the
least
active will always garner suspicion) - rather, that if you're posting half or twice as much as the next most extreme poster in terms of activity, you're probably going to be pissing people off and get considered either a lurker or a spammer. When in doubt, err on the side of more activity.

+ If you're struggling for things to say, try looking at other players' previous games, or reading in isolation someone no-one's really talking about.

+ If you find yourself getting angry and emotional, it may be best to step away from the computer for half an hour. Get some juice or something, read a chapter of a book, then come back to the game.

+ If you're being attacked as town, the player who seems the most convinced that you are scum is not necessarily the person on your wagon who is most likely to
be
scum.

+ Also, it almost never happens that all the scum push the same wagon simultaneously early on. If there is a serious wagon on you, then someone on it, and likely most of the players on it, will be town. You need to convince these people that you are a bad lynch. Suggesting that the basis for your wagon is that the scum have it in for you will not help you do this.

+ Referring to yourself as an easy target is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

+ However bad things look for you, never stop scumhunting. Don't be fatalistic and assume that your death is inevitable because four people want you dead, even if those people seem absolutely convinced.

+ There's nothing wrong with the odd joke or lighthearted anecdote, especially early on. But don't let your 'lulzy' posts outnumber your 'useful' ones.

*I actually hold civility to be a slight scumtell, but that's mostly because this advice works - it's a good way to avoid being lynched.


_______________________________________________________________________________
Really like to hear other people's thoughts on, and additions to, this guide. It's something I've been wanting to write for ages, because how often do you see a scenario where a newbie does something slightly scummy early on and then the momentum builds inexorably toward their lynch? They omgus, they start screaming, they prematurely claim... pretty soon, people who didn't even think the original act was that big a deal end up voting for them, either because they believe the reaction was itself scummy, or that the player has made herself enough of a distraction to require removal in the interests of a readable game.
Last edited by The Fonz on Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:16 am

Post by iamausername »

In post 0, The Fonz wrote:+ However bad things look for you, never stop scumhunting. Don't be fatalistic and assume that your death is inevitable because four people want you dead, even if those people seem absolutely convinced.


I'd add to this that scumhunting should always be your top priority. I've often seen people say things along the lines of "I can't hunt scum right now, I'm too busy defending myself!" - if you are having this problem, you have probably got your priorities wrong.

If someone seems to have misunderstood your intentions, it might be a good idea to explain what you meant, but if they seem to keep on misunderstanding, accept that perhaps the problem is you and most importantly, don't let yourself get caught up in arguing back and forth over the same point. You don't always need to get the last word in an argument. Move on and find something more worthwhile to talk about.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:02 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 1, iamausername wrote:
In post 0, The Fonz wrote:+ However bad things look for you, never stop scumhunting. Don't be fatalistic and assume that your death is inevitable because four people want you dead, even if those people seem absolutely convinced.


I'd add to this that scumhunting should always be your top priority. I've often seen people say things along the lines of "I can't hunt scum right now, I'm too busy defending myself!" - if you are having this problem, you have probably got your priorities wrong.


Yeah, I got lynched day one as a relatively new player because of that. What I would say, though, is it often happens that a newbie will become THE topic of conversation out of the gate, and in that situation newbies will defend themselves in such a way as to fan the flames, and it's not really possible to 'focus on scumhunting over defence' because it's the only issue in the game at that point. And keeping their cool at that point is really, really important to let it blow over.

I also think that a lot of more experienced players will choose to pile pressure on a newbie to see how they react, or because it's the only scum lead they've got, in a position where it's counterproductive. It's what I call the Newbie Escalator. I often think that turning the heat down, then seeing whether the newbie starts scumhunting when he isn't being attacked in every other post is the best way to get a read.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:33 am

Post by mastin2 »

Fonz, you mistitled this guide.

Half the site isn't newbies, yet they should read this stuff. :P
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:41 am

Post by The Fonz »

Is there a significant number of veteran players who are not VIs, but nonetheless known to be lynchbait?

Also, is that your shortest post ever? :lol:
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:07 am

Post by kuribo »

Fonz, with the Be Civil part, you should point out that there are players who are known to be extremely hostile. However, it's hard enough to emulate that one shouldn't bother trying. (theyll be sen as butthurt scum)

I just don't want people playing with me for example, and saying "wow, everyone always thinks he's town. I should yell more."
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:10 am

Post by Zdenek »

With a few additions, i think this could be the Guide to Playing Competently, not just early game survival for newbies.

Also, to be honest, if the goal is survival, I think emotional posts usually work better than civil ones, at least as you are being run up, but that's probably not something that should be encouraged in a guide.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:59 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

More than just "be civil" bring it to "be liked".

If you can make the rest of the game like having you around, you are far less likely to get lynched and can really get away with some stuff that normally would put a decent amount of pressure on you. I actually have a pair of alts who opperate almost exclusively on this theory and they have done fairly well for themselves.

The whole "rage post" thing is one of those double edged swords, most games will let you get away with it, but a few player lists will probably come close to policy lynching you for it. When I run into a caps lock player its basically the only time I ever wish that I was a vig, and I would policy vig any caps lock player N0/N1 given the chance.

I do kinda disagree with "how to deal with being stuck" though. Trying to meta is something that is very difficult for most players, let alone newbie players. I think after four years there are maybe half a dozen that I have a good enough grasp on their meta to actually do something about. Just freeform thoughts tends to be able to spark something from you, or someone else, and at very least tends to draw a question or two that when you explain may start getting you unstuck.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:55 am

Post by kuribo »

In post 7, LlamaFluff wrote:The whole "rage post" thing is one of those double edged swords, most games will let you get away with it, but a few player lists will probably come close to policy lynching you for it. When I run into a caps lock player its basically the only time I ever wish that I was a vig, and I would policy vig any caps lock player N0/N1 given the chance.


The thing is, there's a difference between "rage posting" and "rage posting while scumhunting." People tend to be more forgiving of shouting if they think you believe you've actually found scum.

Even then, in Mole Mafia, you were almost literally the only person calling me scum after AV died.

I kinda felt like my play there screamed partners with vezok and Edgowa: They sheeped my vote repeatedly, I fanned the fires between LLD and AV so that I could set up my mislynch on AV the next day, and then screamed at him until he made a serious scumslip. All while ignoring Lurk1 and Lurk2.

But then again, when you're scum, sometimes you tend to find yourself as obvious.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:29 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

I tend to do pretty good with reading CAPS players and then essentially just ignore them for the remainder of the game if I think they are town, if scum they are pretty difficult to lynch though. It just is so destructive unless the reads from the slot are perfect (as proved perfectly in that one by LLD) that I just dont even pay attention to it and encorage others to do the game.

Being liked I think is basically the same thing from my experiences (see Rainbowdash and Furry), as if you play the game in part to be liked its exceedingly difficult for anyone to lynch you without something ultra-difficult. I think those two account together have never been lynched with around 20 games between them.

Likeability may be one of the best things you can work on as a new player because really, you dont want to lynch someone who you like having around.

That game was one where I came in way to late to do anything about the position you set yourself up in without taking down partners first, and even though my gambit worked 100% perfectly clearing a small group, a couple town didnt understand it so called it scummy. Still have no clue how anyone saw AV as scum in that game still.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:13 am

Post by The Fonz »

In post 5, kuribo wrote:Fonz, with the Be Civil part, you should point out that there are players who are known to be extremely hostile. However, it's hard enough to emulate that one shouldn't bother trying. (theyll be sen as butthurt scum)

I just don't want people playing with me for example, and saying "wow, everyone always thinks he's town. I should yell more."


The thing is... there's veteran players who violate nearly all of these rules. If I went through every one and said "Well there are people who are good players but don't do this" on each one, it wouldn't be concise and it wouldn't be much of a guide. This is basically about how not to make everyone hate you right out of the gate. Quite often, who dies D1 is less about who's scummy, and more about who is going to be absolutely no use to the town, or a distraction, if they are left alive. If I get angry, or am unable to post very much, or tunnel, or get in a 1v1, it might not be good for my long-term prospects, but it's highly unlikely to get me killed that day. If a newbie does it, they very much could.

In post 7, LlamaFluff wrote:
I do kinda disagree with "how to deal with being stuck" though. Trying to meta is something that is very difficult for most players, let alone newbie players. I think after four years there are maybe half a dozen that I have a good enough grasp on their meta to actually do something about. Just freeform thoughts tends to be able to spark something from you, or someone else, and at very least tends to draw a question or two that when you explain may start getting you unstuck.


It's hard to get anything conclusive from meta... I think it's pretty good for finding something that can get discussion going. Also, doing meta is showing your work in terms of scumhunting - it's a good way to signal pro-town intent.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:01 pm

Post by Amrun »

Putting this in my future IC guides. It's great. It's a great starter for newbies who don't have direction.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:05 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 0, The Fonz wrote:*I actually hold civility to be a slight scumtell, but that's mostly because this advice works - it's a good way to avoid being lynched.

So are you ready to prove this or can we just both accept that this is a fundamentally flawed tell?
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:07 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 9, LlamaFluff wrote:I tend to do pretty good with reading CAPS players and then essentially just ignore them for the remainder of the game if I think they are town

So you don't accept your own fallibility? Just a heads up, that's one of the most common mistakes people make, and it isn't experience related, because I've seen newbies not commit it. Accept your own fallibility in every argument and every thought.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:11 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 12, Junpei wrote:
In post 0, The Fonz wrote:*I actually hold civility to be a slight scumtell, but that's mostly because this advice works - it's a good way to avoid being lynched.

So are you ready to prove this or can we just both accept that this is a fundamentally flawed tell?


Well, it's difficult to prove any scumtell works. Look at how long the lurking debate has raged.

But I definitely feel that town, in general, gets more frustrated and angry when things are going badly than scum do. Most of the nastiest, most personal, fights I've seen have been town on town. It's a subset of 'Town says what it thinks and doesn't care about the consequences, scum play to survive.'
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:13 pm

Post by Vi »

In post 14, The Fonz wrote:
In post 12, Junpei wrote:
In post 0, The Fonz wrote:*I actually hold civility to be a slight scumtell, but that's mostly because this advice works - it's a good way to avoid being lynched.

So are you ready to prove this or can we just both accept that this is a fundamentally flawed tell?
Well, it's difficult to prove any scumtell works. Look at how long the lurking debate has raged.

But I definitely feel that town, in general, gets more frustrated and angry when things are going badly than scum do. Most of the nastiest, most personal, fights I've seen have been town on town. It's a subset of 'Town says what it thinks and doesn't care about the consequences, scum play to survive.'
Very much agreed, but note that there are players who build their entire meta around vicious AtE (forbiddanlight being the most memorable one).
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:17 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 15, Vi wrote:Very much agreed, but note that there are players who build their entire meta around vicious AtE (forbiddanlight being the most memorable one).


There are players who build their metas around all sorts of things.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:22 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 0, The Fonz wrote:Also, it almost never happens that all the scum push the same wagon simultaneously early on. If there is a serious wagon on you, then someone on it, and likely most of the players on it, will be town. You need to convince these people that you are a bad lynch. Suggesting that the basis for your wagon is that the scum have it in for you will not help you do this.

This is just going to breed those terrible probability wagon arguments... "You think that THREE SCUM were on Jeffs' wagon day 1 early on?" Yes, I do, now sit down.

The Fonz wrote:
In post 12, Junpei wrote:
In post 0, The Fonz wrote:*I actually hold civility to be a slight scumtell, but that's mostly because this advice works - it's a good way to avoid being lynched.

So are you ready to prove this or can we just both accept that this is a fundamentally flawed tell?


Well, it's difficult to prove any scumtell works. Look at how long the lurking debate has raged.

But I definitely feel that town, in general, gets more frustrated and angry when things are going badly than scum do. Most of the nastiest, most personal, fights I've seen have been town on town. It's a subset of 'Town says what it thinks and doesn't care about the consequences, scum play to survive.'

Alright, so first off..

Vi: I don't build my meta; I don't care about it when I play at all. I played aggressive/polite/hostile earlier on and now I pretty much exclusively play calmly. This is important because...

Fonz: You can prove how scumtells work, at least the theory behind them should be very solid. Lurking isn't a scumtell mainly because no one knows how to define lurking specifically. If you can prove it's a scumtell, it isn't one or you don't know why it is. If you don't know why it is then, unlike rudimentary mathematics classes, you shouldn't apply it.

It is purely a matter of personality and to call people who are always calm scum is ridiculous, especially considering your evidence is the negation = town (which I won't bother refuting at this time). Don't confuse logical negation with the rhetorical negation I'm using here. Scum are calm when their personalities allow it, town are calm when their personalities allow it. There is no correlation between alignment and calmness because calm is a state of being. Levels of control over ones' emotions is a skill which is not lost of gained through alignment, rather a property of ones' persona.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:24 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

In post 13, Junpei wrote:
In post 9, LlamaFluff wrote:I tend to do pretty good with reading CAPS players and then essentially just ignore them for the remainder of the game if I think they are town

So you don't accept your own fallibility? Just a heads up, that's one of the most common mistakes people make, and it isn't experience related, because I've seen newbies not commit it. Accept your own fallibility in every argument and every thought.


Huh?

I know that even if I think they are town, im just not able to coexist with them too well, and continued interaction will eventually lead to a confrontation no matter what I think about them because I just want them out of the game so I can think straight. It may not be the best solution, but its the most effective one I have found if I get stuck in a game with a CAPS player depending on the rest of the playerlist.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:28 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 0, The Fonz wrote:No matter how convinced you are that X is the scummiest player in the game, if you're the only one voting X while Y and Z have five votes each, you really ought to be offering an opinion on which of Y and Z is scummier than the other.

Huh? You mean you're saying that if there are two wagons which are greater than yours, you should consolidate votes? Too vague and misleading. Assuming that's what you mean, there are too many variables that you aren't accounting for, especially seeing as this is "early game survival". If you simply mean offering an opinion, then I'd like to hear how that wouldn't be interpreted as wagon cheerleading (rooting on a wagon without voting it).

LlamaFluff: So once you have a town read on them, you assume that you are right (infallibility)? Never had a town read on someone and later decided they were scum or they turned out to be scum (mafia scumhunting god)?
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:29 pm

Post by Amrun »

No, that's not what it's saying. It's saying that you should offer your opinion of the largest wagons, not change your vote.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:34 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 20, Amrun wrote:No, that's not what it's saying. It's saying that you should offer your opinion of the largest wagons, not change your vote.

The way it's worded seems to imply that you should say "I think X is scummier than Y", which seems rather unproductive and would get called out by everyone.

"You think X is scummier than Y huh? You're the only one voting Z; do you think X or Y are scum? Your post implies that much, yet you aren't voting a lead wagon? Trying to root on a wagon without getting your hands dirty I suppose?"

Easy lynch?
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:37 pm

Post by Amrun »

No, that absolutely does not always happen.

That happens at DEADLINE. It shouldn't happen before. There should probably be a deadline clause in the original post, though.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:39 pm

Post by The Fonz »

In post 19, Junpei wrote:
In post 0, The Fonz wrote:No matter how convinced you are that X is the scummiest player in the game, if you're the only one voting X while Y and Z have five votes each, you really ought to be offering an opinion on which of Y and Z is scummier than the other.

Huh? You mean you're saying that if there are two wagons which are greater than yours, you should consolidate votes? Too vague and misleading.


No, I'm saying that regardless of how convinced you are that your little wagon is by far the best, you should still be willing to comment on the relative merits of the leading wagons. Or in short, if you don't take positions on important game issues, you will be accused of being afraid to take a position on important game issues. Quite often, you will see a newbie who is ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED someone is scum and won't talk about anything else, and this is detrimental to that player's survival chances. Whereas if the player said 'Look, if it came down to A and B, I'd rather lynch B because XYZ, but I'd still much rather lynch C because UVW,' they'd look a lot better.
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Junpei
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5226
Joined: June 24, 2011

Post Post #24 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:42 pm

Post by Junpei »

Oh. In that case I think you should say "Have reads on everyone in the game", since that is much more productive, is helpful in not getting you lynched, achieves the same purpose, and promotes scum hunting.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.

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