Cases are anti-town?

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UberNinja
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:16 am

Panzerjager brought up the point that chamber thinks cases are scummy, and then chamber comes in and says "wellllll they're anti-town". I disagree entirely, and he won't explain it because he's tired. Somebody convince me of this shit because I am totally incredulous as to how this is even remotely considered valid.

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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:22 am

Far end of the anti-walls sentiment? Part of the 'don't tell scum how to act town' thing?

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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:35 am

Neither.

The quality of a case on someone tends to depend more on the rhetorical abilities of the player making the case than on the alignment of the player being cased. It's just confirmation biasy yuckiness.
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:47 am

In post 1, dicknose wrote:Far end of the anti-walls sentiment?


Broadly, this. Plus the idea that town has gut reads, intuitions, and can act impulsively, whereas scum wants to go to painstaking length to show that they have 'good reasons' for acting as they do. The basic premise is that cases rarely actually convince anyone who wasn't going to find the behavior scummy anyway. What they can do is give scum cover for sheeping. You can say in a line or two why you think something's scummy, and people will either agree with you or not. Cases lead to point-by-point rebuttals which lead to point-by-point justifications, which lead to TL/DR.

I subscribe to a milder version of this, in that I think who someone votes for and the timing of it matters far more than any kind of justification they can raise. I'll often vote without any stated reason, in the hope it will cause people to look at my target and figure out for themselves why I suspect them. Most often, though, they just go 'Derp no reasons, that's scummy, vote Fonz.'
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:01 am

Cases move the discussion into a realm of rationality where players play a game of logic without any definite source material. However deep an analysis might be, it's still just guesswork, and the longer the wall of text is, the more easy it is to lose focus of that single fact.

This is not, in itself, scummy, but it gives scum more room for persuasion.
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:06 am

The Fonz got to this thread before I could. So, I agree with him (>")>
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:28 am

And what do you propose to do to those of us who prefare logic to gut/instincts/etc? For me, gut based (or no explanation) votes are more scummy, than at least some explanation. But i agree that long walls are evil, and i think most players are just skimming them, so making a long case means that most will just ignore it or catch a point or two.

If you make it short, describing main points and maybe hiding evidence in spoilers, it is more likely that the target audience will actually grasp an idea why do you think someone is scum. Even if you do a VCA or something similar, it is still a case, just a specialized.

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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:59 am

I try to make my cases short but I still do them

Idk if I've ever made a case as scum, actually
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:00 am

If I really haven't that probably makes me a really easy read
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:17 am

In post 6, kortul wrote:And what do you propose to do to those of us who prefare logic to gut/instincts/etc? For me, gut based (or no explanation) votes are more scummy, than at least some explanation. But i agree that long walls are evil, and i think most players are just skimming them, so making a long case means that most will just ignore it or catch a point or two.


Well, things aren't scummy 'For you.' They're either scummy or not.

For me, gut-based or unexplained votes always draw more heat relative to ones which are neatly explained, even when the underlying motives aren't any less valid. I feel they are unfairly presented as scummy when they're not.
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:28 am

The longer a game goes on, the less likely you are to catch scum (thats a true stat homie/proportional to the number of players) - long winded cases dont really contribute to a succinct readable thread, especially when someone's assburgers is flaring up.
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:35 am

Also, the longer it goes on, the more likely it is unless you're tunneled that there are several points going either way, so you're better off really just stating what you think the key argument against them is: ie active lurker/slip/every town wagon/weird interaction etc.
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:37 am

Answer: No.

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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:52 am

In post 12, Yosarian2 wrote:Answer: No.

Next question?


The position itself is too extreme, but it's the most radical form of a reasonable tendency, towards concision.
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:02 am

In post 9, The Fonz wrote:For me, gut-based or unexplained votes always draw more heat relative to ones which are neatly explained, even when the underlying motives aren't any less valid. I feel they are unfairly presented as scummy when they're not.


Here's the thing ... I understand your point but we have two votes.

One with attached reasoning.
One without.

The first can be analyzed for such things as scum intent and how said reasoning melds with other posts by the player.

The second cannot.

While we seem to be on opposite sides of the spectrum as to thinking explanation is a Pro-Town action it is easier for scum to hide their pushes under the second kind of vote and say "I thought it was obvious, draw your own conclusions". Town can do it also but that only enables scum to do the same.
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:07 am

In post 3, The Fonz wrote: 'Derp no reasons, that's scummy, vote Fonz.'

Ditto me on this.

DISCLAIMER: Yes excessive walls and quote wars can be detrimental to the game.

That said. I think some back and forth or 'case making' is necesarry.
-For one, not everyone thinks the same way, and enlightening other town members to why XXX is scummy can be beneficial.
-The second aspect on the "scum will sheep wallers"...Well so what? Then analyze how the sheeped. What arguments the found strongest. Why they didn't agree with the opposing arguments. It leads to analyzable reactions and further inquiry.
-"Can create a veil for scum to hide behind" (this being one of the wallers in discussion). Yes, and quite effectively can be ruled out as TvT. This requires the town person to pull out of their tunnelvision and end the war before it becomes to excessive. Once A makes their points, B makes their points (maybe a little rebuttle)... there is THEN little reason to continue a back n forth. Whereas asking the populace their opinions on the matter can yield better information.

-To conclude if everyone only ever rights in 1-2 liners there can be little information attained. Yes I love initial gut reads, and seeing peoples reactions. But its hard to recall how people reacted (or how your gut even felt about them on pg 15 when the games now on pg 115). So imo, it must be a happy median.
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:17 am

When someone says "Whats your case, or make a case" - I think thats scummy

When you layout points people can quibble and pettifog endlessly, you aren't doing yourself or the town any favors. I'd rather just write a paragraph or two, aim a well-timed vote that can swing general moods, play to people's weakness, etc. I'm playing to the crowd, not whoever I think is scum. What would I have to discuss with him? I'm not saying close all channels of communication; just dont get involved in back and forths with the guy you think is scum. You dont need to convince him, lol. Finding scum/getting people to vote someone isn't some super logical process. People who tend to make it as such are usually just bad or scum.
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:20 am

Also;

All reads are gut reads.
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:43 am

I find players that go out of their way to make a huge detailed case are often scum. The thing about scum is that as scum, everyone has an impulse to show off. Use all the wonderful tricks you have. So when you make a case, you want it to be the biggest, bestest case ever.

In post 17, Timeater wrote:Also;

All reads are gut reads.

dear god please stop posting
I'll explain it to you. You have to get someone else to understand it for you.

also you should play Dishonored

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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:50 am

Games under the accepted meta of case building being pro-town end up like this in the nightmare scenario:

1. 10 page long case made on player.
2. 20 page long case rebuttal. (Where 10 is the response and 10 is the quoted case.)
3. 40 page long rebuttal to the case rebuttal.
4. 3 million page rebuttal to 3.
5. And
6. Back
7. And
8. Forth while the rest of the players in the game become apathetic to the game while no one is able to focus on anything else. Particularly disastrous if the exchange is town v town.

Cases aren't anti-town in themselves, but they can be like anti-town sticks of dynamite just waiting to blow a game into pieces.

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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:57 am

dear god please stop posting


You cant even comprehend what I mean. Autism in action. All we need now is for Junpei to weigh in.
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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:27 am

All squares are rectangles, but rectangles aren't square.

I read a Thor newbie game where he beat out a player who, rightly, had caugght him as scum basically by dismissing his walls with one liners.

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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:34 am

Its not that cases are inherently bad but they quickly turn into the ye old squire unfurling his scroll for hours on end - that really misses the point.

A "case" should really just be a summation of those things that are why you think someone is scummy with emphasis on the summation. Talking points make things happen, giant walls don't for the most part.

I'm not a great scum by any stretch but I'd say predominately I've been caught by gut versus "cases".
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:21 pm

Spyre wrote:I'm not a great scum by any stretch but I'd say predominately I've been caught by gut versus "cases".


Image

oh u.

People think cases should be these Spockian airtight vacuums that perfectly represent why someone is scum. Its kinda silly. I think in a lot of mafia player's minds (on MS) they have this glorified idea of the "case" that can never be lived up to, and yet in vain they desperately claw towards it, hoping one day they might actually make the perfect "case". Unless someone slipped, blatantly lied, has a guilty, whatever - almost every case will have holes. Its apart of the game.
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:32 pm

In post 23, Timeater wrote: Unless someone slipped, blatantly lied, has a guilty, whatever - almost every case will have holes. Its apart of the game.

Which brings us to scumhunting. You aren't going to catch a halfway decent scummer in blatant lies, or slips etc. And so 'cases'....or even points against these skilled players will be difficult to establish. And they will refute your 'case' as being altogether weak, or with holes.

Scumhunting is a multitude of many small things that culminate together. (Talking here about: gut, player reaction, VCA, genuineness, existing v trying to win, buddying/distancing/bussing, META, etc etc)
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