Cases are anti-town?

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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:04 pm

Post by UberNinja »

Haha. Nice pic. But not to worry, iama. I know how to clean up my act from how you may have seen me play before. I have multiple, very distinct play styles, and I have very little doubt that I'll be an excellent IC thanks to quite a few comments I've gotten thus far, both from newbies and non-newbies.

So my gathering of this thread thus far is that "cases are scummy/anti-town in a sense because they encourage too much logic and not enough gut" is one reason people believe the premise of the thread, and "cases are scummy/anti-town because they tend to encourage walling/quote-stripe rebuttals, depending on the players in the game" is another. The flip side of the argument is that "cases are not scummy in any way; in fact they are necessary to convince more logical-minded scummers of a certain person's guilt where a simple 'that player is scum. just believe me' will just not do".

And those are all valid viewpoints. I just wanted to stimulate some discussion on the topic. If anyone else hasn't said anything on the topic and has a different opinion (or comments on what's transpired thus far) then I encourage them to post their thoughts.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:34 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Well-done cases are not anti-town.

The problem lies in the fact that 95% of cases are not well-done.

Hint: Cases don't have to be walls, and if yours is, it's probably not in the 5%. :P
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:56 pm

Post by quadz08 »

In post 102, mastin2 wrote:Cases don't have to be walls, and if yours is, it's probably not in the 5%.


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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:06 pm

Post by Timeater »

What about making cases semi-official like
fos
.
Boiling them down into the most simple terms so you can use
Case
.

Case:
I think mastin is scum for these reasons. Early game he was posting way too much. Its not apart of his meta at all to act like that. The way he came out of nowhere and defended Cyberbob, that was pretty scummy. Also he has been prone throw out a lot of meaningless reads and lists like the time he said Vi, Chesskid, and Uberninja were all town with dubious reasoning. His voting habits have been lazy, I dont think I've been convinced at his genuineness once when he's placed a vote. To top it off, he hasn't attempted VCA or posted a wall once!
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:36 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 103, quadz08 wrote:
In post 102, mastin2 wrote:Cases don't have to be walls, and if yours is, it's probably not in the 5%.


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Walling among them. I'm known on EVERY. SINGLE. SITE. I've been a regular on for my long-windedness. I made not one, but TWO MD threads about it, too. Rather than receive actually helpful advice, you people went "lolmastin", trolled the threads, and they were quickly derailed. And then died. Without giving me the help I was looking for.

I am very well aware that cases should be concise. Every. single. long. case. I have made has failed. EVERY one of them. My most convincing 'cases' were short posts I never intended to be cases at all.

Do note, however, that I've also found this to be true:
A long case and/or long countercase directed towards a single player can be incredibly convincing. (For instance, Oversoul completely shut down my case against him in OxyMoron Mafia.) If that same case were to be directed at multiple players rather than just the one, it'd be almost entirely useless. And that's where the shorter cases come in. A paragraph, maybe two at most. A case longer than that is pretty much worthless in a crowd.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:39 pm

Post by crypto »

In post 105, mastin2 wrote:But when it comes to theory, I DO know my stuff.

lol
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:41 pm

Post by Junpei »

ITT mastin claims to know everything that he needs to do, yet still whine when people don't give him advice. Impossible to break psychological patterns my ass - if you tried you could do it but I think you just love being flawed and weak.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:55 pm

Post by chamber »

Cases != Reasons (though I will often not give those either). There are a lot of issues with cases, they are biasing, they encourage the person you suspect to respond, 'winning' a 'case-off' is about whos a better debator, not about the strength of the case, they make the thread much more difficult to reread. They aren't only biasing for you ala confirmation bias as been pointed out, they are biasing for those reading the case too, they encourage others to focus on what you saw whether it was right or wrong, whether you saw the relevant points as to that players alignment or not. Everyone knows that arguing with the person you suspect is the best way to generate noise, you are never going to convince town that they are scum, and are never going to get scum to admit that they are scum. NOOOISE. So yeah, if you want to make a concise group of bullet points and ignore the target when he responds, go ahead and do that, but thats not what a 'case' was in 2006, and I don't really think its what a 'case' is now.


edit: And the logic vs gut debate is really dumb. Everyone should interact logically with everything at all times. There is nothing illogical about following your gut, unless its contradicted by hard facts, which almost never surface in mafia games.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:14 pm

Post by crypto »

In post 107, Junpei wrote:ITT mastin claims to know everything that he needs to do, yet still whine when people don't give him advice. Impossible to break psychological patterns my ass - if you tried you could do it but I think you just love being flawed and weak.
that is some pretty sweet armchair psychology there junpei i appreciate the analysis
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:17 pm

Post by Quilford »

holy shit junpei that was really fucking good of you to say man
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:22 pm

Post by Timeater »

In post 107, Junpei wrote:ITT mastin claims to know everything that he needs to do, yet still whine when people don't give him advice. Impossible to break psychological patterns my ass - if you tried you could do it but I think you just love being flawed and weak.


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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:44 pm

Post by Junpei »

In post 110, Quilford wrote:holy shit junpei that was really fucking good of you to say man

np bro, he likes it when people give him harsh criticism - just ask him
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:47 pm

Post by quadz08 »

Mastin: I didn't mean to insult, honestly. Know that I think that your contributions to MD are helpful and interesting. (Your cop thread in particular was great, it changed my perception on how to play it.)

It was meant to be lighthearted, my apologies if it came across differently.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:54 am

Post by chamber2 »

CASES ARE SCUMMY
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:48 am

Post by saulres »

I really prefer when other people give cases with their vote. You may not want to give one because you think they're of no value in getting your target lynched, but I don't think you're looking at it from the other side -- it gives me no read on
you
.

Since you could be scum, I don't want to waste my time looking over someone you voted for with no reasoning when from where I'm sitting, you could be scum trying to distract me from what I'm looking at. Give me a case and then I have something to think about when evaluating you.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:31 am

Post by Tammy »

In post 114, saulres wrote:I really prefer when other people give cases with their vote. You may not want to give one because you think they're of no value in getting your target lynched, but I don't think you're looking at it from the other side -- it gives me no read on
you
.

Since you could be scum, I don't want to waste my time looking over someone you voted for with no reasoning when from where I'm sitting, you could be scum trying to distract me from what I'm looking at. Give me a case and then I have something to think about when evaluating you.


This. Cases do more for me being able to evaluate the person making the case than who the case is on. If I can evaluate the person who made the case positively then I'm more likely to take some of their opinions into account...other than that meh.

Cases can be dangerous in a sense because some town are too lazy to think for themselves or actually read. I've written cases that I don't think were all that persuasive, but people voted the way I wanted anyway. I figure it's because they went "hey that has a lot of words and paragraphs, must be accurate" without actually reading. Then they don't have to feel responsible if it's wrong because hey "there was a case!"
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:48 am

Post by Faraday »

In post 114, saulres wrote:I really prefer when other people give cases with their vote. You may not want to give one because you think they're of no value in getting your target lynched, but I don't think you're looking at it from the other side -- it gives me no read on you.

Getting my targeted lynched as scum gives you a read on me!

(Plus it's not hard to fabricate a case as scum, like it really isn't. )
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:47 am

Post by saulres »

In post 116, Faraday wrote:Getting my targeted lynched as scum gives you a read on me!


I don't actually agree with this. Either there's something I still need to learn, or it's just not true. If you don't tell me why you vote, how is getting someone lynched going to help me know your alignment?

(Plus it's not hard to fabricate a case as scum, like it really isn't. )


Well, yes, of course scum can make a case. But then that's something to look at, both before and certainly after flips.

I've noticed a trend in this thread -- for the most part, those arguing against cases have a join date before around 2010, and those arguing for them have a join date after 2010. That parallels my experience playing with people like CES, and the problems I've seen when oldies and newbies play together. I wonder why that is.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:48 am

Post by quadz08 »

It's fairly recent, this thread of obscenely long games and wallposts. Newer players have taken the site's tendency towards -analysis- and emphasizing dayplay to an extreme, in many cases.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:51 am

Post by zoraster »

what? Walls were a way worse problem in the old days. Like... not even close.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:55 am

Post by quadz08 »

Maybe I'm jumping too far back in history then. When I read old games from like 05-07/08, nothing ever goes longer than 20-30 pages.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:58 am

Post by zoraster »

that's potentially a sign that wall posts were worse. If you're typing up 2,000 word essays with Point-by-point analysis, you don't have time to post a ton of smaller posts that add pages to a game.

The past couple of years the tendency has been toward LOTS of smaller posts.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:59 am

Post by quadz08 »

Oh zor, no. The posts were tiny. Like, it was to a point that I actually don't think I could've played effectively on the site; there wasn't enough information to draw on.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:00 am

Post by Ellibereth »

I always get the feeling that I've seen this type of conversation so many times previously.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:15 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 121, zoraster wrote:that's potentially a sign that wall posts were worse. If you're typing up 2,000 word essays with Point-by-point analysis, you don't have time to post a ton of smaller posts that add pages to a game.

The past couple of years the tendency has been toward LOTS of smaller posts.


In 05 there were more of a mix of smaller posts and bigger posts, then around late 07-09 the wall posts hit their max, and they have been on the fall ever since. Of course in 05-6 games were -really- short compared to now too, in terms of total posts and total words.
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