Cases are anti-town?

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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:21 pm

Post by Timeater »

Logic is subjective when it comes to interpreting the actions of other individuals
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:43 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 50, Timeater wrote:Logic is subjective when it comes to interpreting the actions of other individuals


Well, logic is objective; it's just that logic always relies on assumptions, by definition, and the assumptions can always be wrong. When someone is logically scumhunting always make sure you agree with their assumptions before you follow them.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:46 pm

Post by Timeater »

in a perfect world it is
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:00 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 37, Yosarian2 wrote:Seriously; voting on gut is fine if that's the best you can do, but if you actually have a reason for thinking person X is scum, it's usually best to say it. You can lead with a vote and explain later to get better reactions if you want, but if you have reasons, you should share them at some point. You might convince other people, or there might be some huge hole in your logic that someone else can point out.

Just remember that half the reason of making a case on someone is the chance that you might be wrong, and if you are, you want someone to explain to you why you are wrong. It's not a debating club; if you "win the debate" but lynch a town it doesn't help you.


This x10,000!


In post 28, gorckat wrote:I agree with Fonz here.

If I were to take the time to elaborate every single point in my agreement, that wouldn't increase signal and would be a pain in the ass to read.


The problem is that people think "case" and think "20 pages of elaboration" when it does NOT have to be that way. Sometimes, a point NEEDS elaboration to make any sense. Sometimes, you just SEE something that is scummy as fuck, but it's so subtle that you NEED to explain it, especially when playing against good players.

For example, I've felt the need to do big, logic-based cases on players like mith and VP Baltar and been proven right, because they're not terrible, and you can't explain their scumminess by going, "He's late on the wagons!" or whatever. They're good enough not to do shit like that.

In post 43, Yosarian2 wrote:
In post 41, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
In the end I'd say every read is gut.


That's really not true.

I can't tell you how many times that I had a town gut read on someone for most of the game, but I voted them anyway, because logic dictated that they had to be scum. Usually logic trumps gut.


Well, I wouldn't say "usually," but sometimes, logic trumps gut. And sometimes, gut trumps logic. Either way, if you don't examine the logic by putting the case out there, you can never examine the logic's validity.

In post 51, Yosarian2 wrote:
In post 50, Timeater wrote:Logic is subjective when it comes to interpreting the actions of other individuals


Well, logic is objective; it's just that logic always relies on assumptions, by definition, and the assumptions can always be wrong. When someone is logically scumhunting always make sure you agree with their assumptions before you follow them.


Also this.


I basically wholeheartedly disagree with everyone who says cases are scummy and/or anti-town. Cases are NECESSARY and IMPORTANT parts of the game, but should be used sparingly, and when warranted. Just because some people start spam fights with cases does not mean that cases are inherently spammy or anti-town.
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:21 pm

Post by Faraday »

In post 48, Yosarian2 wrote:
In post 45, crypto wrote:
In post 43, Yosarian2 wrote:Usually logic trumps gut.
this statement is delightfully retarded on so many levels


Ok, I should clarify that. Usually for people who are not bloody idiots, logic trumps gut.

what do you mean by logic here though?
are you thinking of me when you're with somebody else?
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:25 pm

Post by Magister Ludi »

Heh, I saw that edit Faraday.

I do agree with the logic more useful on average than gut crowd. People use logic in the real world, like when evaluating which of five different cars to buy, or health insurance, or etc., and yet come to mafia and throw that all out the window and just say 'gut' or instincts or whatever and don't really question themselves. I've come to think that on some occasions, people using 'gut' are just lazy and can't be arsed to explain themselves or take the time and evaluate.
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:22 pm

Post by kortul »

In post 53, Amrun wrote:I basically wholeheartedly disagree with everyone who says cases are scummy and/or anti-town. Cases are NECESSARY and IMPORTANT parts of the game, but should be used sparingly, and when warranted. Just because some people start spam fights with cases does not mean that cases are inherently spammy or anti-town.
I agree completely with this. Cases are just another set of tools to work towards your goal. They are used by both town and scum. There's no alignment attached to a tool. And when i am talking about the case, it is certain points against someone, that are not based on PoE. Whether it is a wall of text or just 2 short sentences - it is still a case.

I'd say dismissing cases is anti-town - it means ignoring the interactions between two players of unknown alignment. Analyse the case: figure out whether you agree with the assumptions, interpretations of the facts, etc; whether the conclusions are logical, or not; whether all the facts were given or some are conveniently missing. If you agree with everything, good. If you disagree with assumptions or interpretations - argue. If you see the flaw in logic - point to it. Just be concise, and see the reaction of the case maker - is he actually considering your words, or just blindly pushing his points. Even if it will tell you nothing about the case target, it will allow you to get a better read on case maker.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:21 am

Post by crypto »

In post 48, Yosarian2 wrote:
In post 45, crypto wrote:
In post 43, Yosarian2 wrote:Usually logic trumps gut.
this statement is delightfully retarded on so many levels


Ok, I should clarify that. Usually for people who are not bloody idiots, logic trumps gut.
qualifying a stupid statement with a stupid conditional doesn't really help

intuition is experience-based and as far as i know it's not more valuable to morons than it is to smart people
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:26 am

Post by Timeater »

Everyone has a different idea on what the proper application of logic is. There are of course situations where a broad consensus can be reached through "obvious" logical approaches.
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:55 am

Post by zoraster »

Image

The word logic gets used in mafia largely to make those who argue for its superiority feel smarter. There are certainly times where logic is incredibly helpful in mafia. But when you deal with as many unknowns as mafia does, the general idea that logic trumps is not valid.

That doesn't mean I think cases are scummy, though. I think players should attempt to lay out why they feel what they do if for no other reason than it in turn gives other players a method of evaluation. It's hard for me to have "gut" on someone if they don't post. Unless I think their not posting is scummy, but that's pretty context sensitive.
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:59 am

Post by Timeater »

True dat homie
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:27 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 57, crypto wrote:
In post 48, Yosarian2 wrote:
In post 45, crypto wrote:
In post 43, Yosarian2 wrote:Usually logic trumps gut.
this statement is delightfully retarded on so many levels


Ok, I should clarify that. Usually for people who are not bloody idiots, logic trumps gut.
qualifying a stupid statement with a stupid conditional doesn't really help

intuition is experience-based and as far as i know it's not more valuable to morons than it is to smart people


Except that by the time you've gotten to the point of the game where have enough information to break it down like a logic puzzle and logically figure out who the scum have to be, then you win, you don't need to rely on intuition anymore at that point in the game. Although there's usually one dumb townie who ignores all that because of some stupid gut read that they've had since day 1, and they're pretty annoying.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:40 am

Post by quadz08 »

My personal experience in mafia games make me want to disagree with Yos.

The fact that Yos is a far better player than me is making me want to reconsider.

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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:47 am

Post by Timeater »

Yos you need to be specific and clarify exactly when and where you are talking about the application of logic. I feel most of the people in this thread were talking about logic in the sense as it applies to reads and scumhunting in general, not some specific aspect of the endgame. =/
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:14 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Well, obviously you can't do real, formal logic to find an answer until you have a LOT of facts, which usually means pretty late into the game.
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:21 am

Post by Timeater »

In post 64, Yosarian2 wrote:Well, obviously you can't do real, formal logic to find an answer until you have a LOT of facts, which usually means pretty late into the game.


uhh duh? my point and I think many other peoples points were that "logical" (note the quotation marks) cases are often far from the mathematical, formal logic you seem to be talking about. When someone makes a case, they think they are being logical, but then person B makes a case, and he thinks he's being "logical", person C makes a case against person B and she thinks she's being "logical". 99% of the time its just pseudo intellectual bullshit
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:39 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Oh, that's a very different kind of thing from what I was talking about. Obviously cases as a whole don't use formal logic; they should use reasoning and logical arguments, but that's not the same thing.

Now, if you're saying that a reasonable sounding case shouldn't necessarally trump your gut, I would agree with that. It all depends. That being said, cases are more useful then gut for everyone else.

Timeater: "I have a gut feeling Pooky is scum".

If I'm town and don't know either of your alignments, that's more useful to me informationally then you not doing anything, but only slightly.

Timeater: "Pooky looks scummy because of his OMGUS attacks in post 45, 83, and 127; he has consistantly lurked when not under attack, he's used what appears to be dishonest and slippery logic in his case in 235, and I generally have a bad gut feeling about him."

Now I have a lot more to work with; I can go look at those posts and facts, and form my own opinion. If you're wrong about some of it, I can correct you on it, and see if you're being reasonable or are just trying to get Pooky lynched. If you're right about some of it, I can say that I agree with you about point X (thereby adding another data point for everyone else, this one about me), and I can ask Pooky about some of it, and see how he responds.

All in all, a case, even a short, simple case, generates a ton more data for everyone else in the game then just a dull "I have a gut feeling that person X is scum", and it generally moves the game foward better. A gut vote is better then doing nothing at all, and no one is saying you should ignore your gut, but when you can make a case, it's better.
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:44 am

Post by The Fonz »

The problem I have is when someone makes a case that 30 different things a player has done are scummy, and I can't tell which are the key points, and at least 4-5 of the points are ridiculous and total confirmation bias and they cause me to ignore, or have my eyes glaze over before I get to, the 1-2 that actually nail the guy as scum.
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:47 am

Post by quadz08 »

It seems to me that the general consensus is that WALLS ARE BAD.

Sound good? Good.
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:48 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 67, The Fonz wrote:The problem I have is when someone makes a case that 30 different things a player has done are scummy, and I can't tell which are the key points, and at least 4-5 of the points are ridiculous and total confirmation bias and they cause me to ignore, or have my eyes glaze over before I get to, the 1-2 that actually nail the guy as scum.


Yeah, fair enough. It's good to make both kinds of cases; short posts, which focus on the key parts, and longer, analysis-style posts, that let people see a little more of your thoughts and some of the smaller scumtells.

Just don't let someone distract you from your real points by debating about stupid stuff. Every now and then, you just have to repeat "Um...you defended scum. For 30 posts. And then you hammered the cop." and keep the attention on the main points.
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:50 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 68, quadz08 wrote:It seems to me that the general consensus is that WALLS ARE BAD.

Sound good? Good.


Bad walls are bad. Good walls are good. Except for lazy people who skim them, and to them walls are irrelevent.

Basically, if your post goes long because you have a lot to say, that's fine; it's when people start trying to just flood the thread with BS to hide how weak their points are that it gets really annoying.
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:00 am

Post by quadz08 »

Eh. Business style writing: fit the most important points in as small of a space as possible. That's good communication, and good communication is what makes good scumhunting.
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:05 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

In post 68, quadz08 wrote:It seems to me that the general consensus is that WALLS ARE BAD.

Sound good? Good.


No, not really.

In post 65, Timeater wrote: 99% of the time its just pseudo intellectual bullshit


Again, no not really.

You are using the tried and true "throw mud at it" to manner of presentation you don't agree with. I'm not surprised you chose that specific phrase because I've heard that before from some of your 'runnin krewz'.
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:33 am

Post by Timeater »

wat

i was over exaggerating but there is a lot of PIB in "logical" cases, imo
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:45 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 71, quadz08 wrote:Eh. Business style writing: fit the most important points in as small of a space as possible. That's good communication, and good communication is what makes good scumhunting.


Sometimes. Nothing wrong with brainstorming/thinking out loud/sharing your thoughts as they hit you style of posting either, though. That has the advantage of making it easier for people to read you, and might get their minds going as well.
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