Cases are anti-town?

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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:51 am

Post by Timeater »

There are reasons people have gut feelings

It doesn't come from the ether
watch for the eggshells
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:51 am

Post by quadz08 »

Fair point.
Current Avatar: Kronk. Duh.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:03 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 75, Timeater wrote:There are reasons people have gut feelings

It doesn't come from the ether


Sure. Like I said, gut feelings are useful, and shouldn't be ignored.

If you can identify where you got them from, though, and point out where you got a bad gut feeling from and why you have a bad feeling about person X this game, it's more useful to the rest of the town.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:08 am

Post by Timeater »

I think its both weird and interesting the way MS has developed and grown its own lexicon surrounding certain terms (gut and logic for instance). Pinpointing the exact meanings of such words as defined by this community (in the context of mafia) might be enlightening. And entertaining.
watch for the eggshells
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:37 am

Post by Junpei »

Gut: An emotional response to a post

Logic: A mechanical examination of a post

To clarify on the latter: The mechanical examination uses tools of subjectivity of what is suspicious, what certain things mean, and what certain things are true.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA41ggsdeXE
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:45 am

Post by Alchemist »

lol
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:14 pm

Post by crypto »

In post 61, Yosarian2 wrote:some stupid gut read
just stop trying
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:18 pm

Post by RXK »

most gut reads can be backed up by logic and most (accurate) logic reads have some gut behind them.

it's not mutually exclusive.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:20 pm

Post by crypto »

your fantasy world where the outcomes of mafia games are generally governed by situations in which elements of "gut" and "logic" are both applicable but in which logic always or almost always trumps gut is a fucking ludicrous

@yos
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:05 am

Post by VisMaior »

no. logic still trumps. The problem is, that logic needs a premise to base deductions on. The premises can be wrong.
"logic is in the eye of the beholder" -LyingBrian in Eyewitness 1
"correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the CHANCE of something happening always 50% (either it will or it won't)?" -LyingBrian in BJs Wild West mafia
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:35 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 84, VisMaior wrote:no. logic still trumps. The problem is, that logic needs a premise to base deductions on. The premises can be wrong.


Ironically, your premises do not support your conclusion, even though they're correct.

It doesn't
logically
follow that logic trumps precisely
because
logic needs a premise to base deductions on and premises can be wrong.

In Mafia, premises are frequently wrong. Furthermore, these premises as often as not come from intuition themselves, so to the extent the conclusion was correct because of logic, it was actually correct because of the correct "gut" premise.

---

There is a name for mafia games where players are able to use only logic to beat their opponent. These games are called broken.
.
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:38 am

Post by VisMaior »

Very accurately observed, however, I feel there is a misunderstanding. When I said "logic trumps" I meant, building a case supported by logical deductions is better than going with the gutfeelings only. Therefore, my statement did not contaion a premise, nor a conclusion: it wasnt a logic argument, merely a statement.
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"correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the CHANCE of something happening always 50% (either it will or it won't)?" -LyingBrian in BJs Wild West mafia
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:49 am

Post by Bricktoes »

"The problem with" isn't a synonym for "because of." Logic fails again. :(
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:10 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 83, crypto wrote:your fantasy world where the outcomes of mafia games are generally governed by situations in which elements of "gut" and "logic" are both applicable but in which logic always or almost always trumps gut is a fucking ludicrous

@yos


You do realize that I was only talking about an endgame situation where have enough facts that you can logically figure out who the scum has to be, right? How is gut applicable in that situation at all?
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:27 am

Post by Om of the Nom »

My gut is always right in LYLO.
“Leftover lady, let alone the strongest to be subdued.
If I only had the magic key that would unlock the realms to the plateau of the highest me.
Even though I’ve been badly bruised, living in a house to become a popular muse.”

hey beautiful ! how was your day ?
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:16 am

Post by crypto »

In post 88, Yosarian2 wrote:
In post 83, crypto wrote:your fantasy world where the outcomes of mafia games are generally governed by situations in which elements of "gut" and "logic" are both applicable but in which logic always or almost always trumps gut is a fucking ludicrous

@yos


You do realize that I was only talking about an endgame situation where have enough facts that you can logically figure out who the scum has to be, right? How is gut applicable in that situation at all?
jesus christ
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:31 am

Post by 4nxi3ty »

this feels like the whole right brain vs. left brain debate
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:31 am

Post by Justin Timberlake »

in that it's dumb?

the dichotomy of logical vs gut scumhunting is stupid
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:33 am

Post by 4nxi3ty »

nah not quite dumb just repetetive and circular
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:36 am

Post by 4nxi3ty »

as for cases i think the major pitfalls is it can drain stamina from both the writer and reader, and if your wrong about reads you end up doing a lot of work for the scumteam.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:44 am

Post by Timeater »

In post 92, Justin Timberlake wrote:in that it's dumb?

the dichotomy of logical vs gut scumhunting is stupid


i know right
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:10 am

Post by RXK »

we can have both
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:43 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

You have to have both, obviously. There's no "dichotomy between gut and logic".
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:04 am

Post by chesskid3 »

Just here to point out that

people who vote based on gut don't usually make LYLO.

Whether that's because they suck and get lynched/claim a pr and die or because maf nk them because they dont want them in lylo is up for debate
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:47 pm

Post by UberNinja »

In post 39, Yosarian2 wrote:I should be clear, though, that when some people say "reactions tests" they mean "I'm going to do something stupid, scummy, and anti-town and see how people react", and that's a terrible idea. Never do something actually anti-town in order to get a reaction, or the reaction will be "all the townies quicklynching you"

Not surprisingly, I too disagree with Yos... as always.

I tend to think reaction tests of doing stupid and/or scummy things are brilliant for helping to find scum. Scum doesn't have reasons to vote townies, so you have to give them reasons to vote townies. If the reason for voting you is better than the reason to vote someone else, they'll vote you.

You just have to a) know the difference between a townie voting you and a scum voting you (Junpei hints at this in #38), so you can get them lynched, b) have the time/patience to explain to people that it was a reaction test, and c) have the street cred to steer the wagon off you before you're quicklynched.



But reaction tests are for another thread, which, entirely coincidentally,
I just made
about ten minutes ago, mostly in response to having returned from Scummer of Love in desperate need of playing more mafia than I am right now (which is very little, and none IRL :(), but also because I want to have something to point to for when newbies ask me why I do what I do when I begin ICing in a week or two.
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