Why do people play open setups?

[Cheery Dog]

But scum, when cornered, should be forced to think about the game they're playing when they're caught. Fake claims should take effort.

Let's say someone is playing a fictional "super mario RPG mafia". Scum is pretty much caught and at L-1. Scum is assigned smithy, but can't claim Smithy from 'cuz that would be autolynch. Smithy is obviously one of the villains. But scum could claim Jinx or croco, because they're not quite a bad guys, may be in said hypothetical game, are not so obscure as to question "who is that", but are not so popular that they would have been given to actual town players. Scum couldn't claim Princess Toadstool because that role is obviously going to be assigned to a town player and will be counter-claimed in this hypothetical theme. Knowing the meta of super mario Rpg in this hypothetical theme game should be a benefit to town and scum alike.

I know I'm in the minority on this but since the topic came up I figured I'd share my thoughts on theme games and scum being handed safe fake claims.

a theme game without scum safe flavor claims would be easily broken by Day 1 flavor massclaim.

I disagree.

You've just stated in your example theme Princess Toadstool would be obvious town.

Therefore by not having the possibility that scum getting that (and other roles that you also describe as obvtown alignment), it reduces the lynch pool to just the not quite bad guys.

[reinoe]

But scum, when cornered, should be forced to think about the game they're playing when they're caught. Fake claims should take effort.

Let's say someone is playing a fictional "super mario RPG mafia". Scum is pretty much caught and at L-1. Scum is assigned smithy, but can't claim Smithy from 'cuz that would be autolynch. Smithy is obviously one of the villains. But scum could claim Jinx or croco, because they're not quite a bad guys, may be in said hypothetical game, are not so obscure as to question "who is that", but are not so popular that they would have been given to actual town players. Scum couldn't claim Princess Toadstool because that role is obviously going to be assigned to a town player and will be counter-claimed in this hypothetical theme. Knowing the meta of super mario Rpg in this hypothetical theme game should be a benefit to town and scum alike.

I know I'm in the minority on this but since the topic came up I figured I'd share my thoughts on theme games and scum being handed safe fake claims.

a theme game without scum safe flavor claims would be easily broken by Day 1 flavor massclaim.

I disagree.

You've just stated in your example theme Princess Toadstool would be obvious town.

Therefore by not having the possibility that scum getting that (and other roles that you also describe as obvtown alignment), it reduces the lynch pool to just the not quite bad guys.

Ok, I worded that a little poorly and I accept that. But there are also side characters who would nto be too obscure and are good characters: The Chancellor, One or both of mallows parents, Frogfucious, Frogfucious' apprentice, Link/Samus, Toadofsky, Fireworks Mole, or Culex. You can choose these and more and that's just off the top of my head. Knowing the rich tapestry of the theme game benefits town and scum alike.

[Antihero]

haha, no you don't understand...

what's your suggesting would create a game where it would obviously be beneficial to massclaim Day 1. if the town roles are main characters, they pretty much become "flavor ICs", confirmed by their flavor. eliminate the flavor ICs from the lynch pool, game broken.

you can get around that by either:
1) giving scum safe flavor claims (most mods intentionally leave a main character or two out of the setup altogether for this purpose)
2) making setup where ALL the town characters are minor/ancillary characters (and how screwed up is that?)

that's why, on this site, the (1) option is the convention.

[Zachrulez]

But scum, when cornered, should be forced to think about the game they're playing when they're caught. Fake claims should take effort.

Let's say someone is playing a fictional "super mario RPG mafia". Scum is pretty much caught and at L-1. Scum is assigned smithy, but can't claim Smithy from 'cuz that would be autolynch. Smithy is obviously one of the villains. But scum could claim Jinx or croco, because they're not quite a bad guys, may be in said hypothetical game, are not so obscure as to question "who is that", but are not so popular that they would have been given to actual town players. Scum couldn't claim Princess Toadstool because that role is obviously going to be assigned to a town player and will be counter-claimed in this hypothetical theme. Knowing the meta of super mario Rpg in this hypothetical theme game should be a benefit to town and scum alike.

I know I'm in the minority on this but since the topic came up I figured I'd share my thoughts on theme games and scum being handed safe fake claims.

a theme game without scum safe flavor claims would be easily broken by Day 1 flavor massclaim.

I disagree.

You've just stated in your example theme Princess Toadstool would be obvious town.

Therefore by not having the possibility that scum getting that (and other roles that you also describe as obvtown alignment), it reduces the lynch pool to just the not quite bad guys.

Ok, I worded that a little poorly and I accept that. But there are also side characters who would nto be too obscure and are good characters: The Chancellor, One or both of mallows parents, Frogfucious, Frogfucious' apprentice, Link/Samus, Toadofsky, Fireworks Mole, or Culex. You can choose these and more and that's just off the top of my head. Knowing the rich tapestry of the theme game benefits town and scum alike.

In the few theme games I've had the pleasure to be a part of, obscure character claims are immediately suspected. So it's rather crappy to force scum to claim those characters and be suspected because all the super town looking roles are all taken. Giving the scum safe character's to claim is the only way to not bone them if the town decides to mass character claim.

[GreyICE]

But scum, when cornered, should be forced to think about the game they're playing when they're caught. Fake claims should take effort.

Let's say someone is playing a fictional "super mario RPG mafia". Scum is pretty much caught and at L-1. Scum is assigned smithy, but can't claim Smithy from 'cuz that would be autolynch. Smithy is obviously one of the villains. But scum could claim Jinx or croco, because they're not quite a bad guys, may be in said hypothetical game, are not so obscure as to question "who is that", but are not so popular that they would have been given to actual town players. Scum couldn't claim Princess Toadstool because that role is obviously going to be assigned to a town player and will be counter-claimed in this hypothetical theme. Knowing the meta of super mario Rpg in this hypothetical theme game should be a benefit to town and scum alike.

I know I'm in the minority on this but since the topic came up I figured I'd share my thoughts on theme games and scum being handed safe fake claims.

Except that mods used to do that. And it was easy. Playing in a maria themed RPG? Popcorn claim. Anyone who claims Mario/Luigi/Peach/Toad/Daisy is town, because of the exact logic you just used (not safe to claim any of those). Bam, 4 or 5 confirmed town. You don't even need to actually do anything now, the game only has 6 or 7 people who can actually be lynched, and you can probably clear all of them with ease. Honestly, if you brought the mafiascum old guard to any of the theme games that people run on other sites, it would be a town massacre due to how broken most of them are.


I think the meta has shifted a bit too far into making things easy for scum (scum should have to think about their claims - mod meta here, folks). But if you've got a theme RPG, scum need some sort of theme fake claims.

P.S. I've seen games be made ridiculous with things as simple as "the mod likes this character, they'd never make it a fakeclaim".

[tn5421]

That's why an artful scum claims VT and sells that shit well.

shouldn't work with an at least semi-competent town.

I can't stand the idea of scum being given a list of fake claims. It's hard enough trying to corner scum at L-1 only for them to claim a role handed to them on a silver platter in order to fake claim. And to fake claim a PR at that. If scum get to cornered they should be forced to think about the theme, conjour up something obscure enough to be in the game but not so likely as to be counter-claimed, and hope for the best.
's hard enough trying to corner scum at L-1 only for them to claim a role handed to them on a silver platter in order to fake claim. And to fake claim a PR at that. If scum get to cornered they should be forced to think about the theme, conjour up something obscure enough to be in the game but not so likely as to be counter-claimed, and hope for the best.

i disagree. players shouldn't have to factor flavor meta into their lynch decision. theme mods absolutely should give scum safe flavor claims.

But scum, when cornered, should be forced to think about the game they're playing when they're caught. Fake claims should take effort.

Let's say someone is playing a fictional "super mario RPG mafia". Scum is pretty much caught and at L-1. Scum is assigned smithy, but can't claim Smithy from 'cuz that would be autolynch. Smithy is obviously one of the villains. But scum could claim Jinx or croco, because they're not quite a bad guys, may be in said hypothetical game, are not so obscure as to question "who is that", but are not so popular that they would have been given to actual town players. Scum couldn't claim Princess Toadstool because that role is obviously going to be assigned to a town player and will be counter-claimed in this hypothetical theme. Knowing the meta of super mario Rpg in this hypothetical theme game should be a benefit to town and scum alike.

I know I'm in the minority on this but since the topic came up I figured I'd share my thoughts on theme games and scum being handed safe fake claims.

This specifically is kinda funny since Smithy is technically a godfather of a crime family.
Jinx would be a bulletproof townie or perhaps an x-shot vig.
Croco would be a survivor. Somewhat annoying but can safely be ignored.

I would love to see someone fakeclaim Jonathan (Johnny) Jones though. Or Frogfucius (probably an investigative role)
Culex would be a third party, whether survivor or serial killer.

I don't think fakeclaims should just be handed out, but you should get a hint or two. Not everyone knows the source material as well as others.

[Cheery Dog]

It does actually depend on how much flavor you put in the roles.

If it's just names, I'd expect scum to receive a list of names known to not actually be in the game.
If everything is flavored such as ability names, I'd expect the mod to offer scum extra fakeclaim service by fitting roles into the flavor.

If the mod wants a broken game possibility, they don't give any, although the game would also break slightly if scum are given complete fakeclaims and town attempts to massclaim day 1

The beet choice is to just have flavor names randomized separately to alignments/roles. (but then I haven't actually modded any theme games yet)

[reinoe]

It does actually depend on how much flavor you put in the roles.

If it's just names, I'd expect scum to receive a list of names known to not actually be in the game.
If everything is flavored such as ability names, I'd expect the mod to offer scum extra fakeclaim service by fitting roles into the flavor.

If the mod wants a broken game possibility, they don't give any, although the game would also break slightly if scum are given complete fakeclaims and town attempts to massclaim day 1

The beet choice is to just have flavor names randomized separately to alignments/roles. (but then I haven't actually modded any theme games yet)

This has been brought up several times: has anyone ever seen a massclaim on day 1 in a theme game?

[Cheery Dog]

This has been brought up several times: has anyone ever seen a massclaim on day 1 in a theme game?

Yes, that's why we're saying what we're saying.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23215 (not broken because scum had fakeclaims)
We may have only been doing characters, but it's still happened.

[Antihero]

This has been brought up several times: has anyone ever seen a massclaim on day 1 in a theme game?

as soon as people figure out you don't give scum fake flavor claims, they'll break your game

...and you'll also probably start having trouble filling theme games as a mod...

[reinoe]

This has been brought up several times: has anyone ever seen a massclaim on day 1 in a theme game?

as soon as people figure out you don't give scum fake flavor claims, they'll break your game

...and you'll also probably start having trouble filling theme games as a mod...

Challenge accepted.


Venture Bros Theme Game

Dean Venture
Hank Venture
Rusty Venture
Brock Samson
Dr. Orpheus
Jonas Venture Jr.
H.E.L.P.E.R.
Triana Orpheus
Master Billy Quizboy
Pete White
Sargent Hatred
Johnny Quest
Hadjji

Spot the villains. Any one of these people could be a hero or villain given any number of near random scenarios.

[Faraday]

Why would I want to randomise who's scum, when I can just say "X character isn't in the game", which does that in a better way. It's basically the same difference - if you make scum and town indistinguishable from flavour, you just do the same with real names and fake name claims. There's no inherent advantage for scum in either. So, like, what's your point?

[reinoe]

Why would I want to randomise who's scum, when I can just say "X character isn't in the game", which does that in a better way. It's basically the same difference - if you make scum and town indistinguishable from flavour, you just do the same with real names and fake name claims. There's no inherent advantage for scum in either. So, like, what's your point?

I'm not taking the additional step of giving scum extra help. Means all the difference in the world. Veering off topic possibly so...


Open games avoid the issue entirely.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Did you actually have scum in mind for that venture bros thing?

[reinoe]

Did you actually have scum in mind for that venture bros thing?

That's 13 players and I could forsee 3 scum in there.

For example. The Dean brothers. They're naive and one or both simply be getting misled by the big bad. Helper is a robot and what 7 of those people are smart enough to hack 'em? Rusty venture built a machine powered by the forsaken heart of an orphan and there was that episode where he almost did become a villain. Triana Orpheus is apprenticing under Dr. Orpheus' wife and could be getting trained in the dark arts. Brock samson kills hundreds of people in the line of duty, but let's not forget he takes joy in it. Johnny Quest is a recovering drug addict and could be in it for the money due to a relapse...


I could go on but any one of those characters could be a villain. That's why I specifically listed 13 characters. No fake claims necessary. Enough characters for a theme game.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay. That's a no. You don't have 3 specific scum in there. But you do have enough uncertainty that we can't be sure on this theme.

Anyway, back on topic. I play open setups because I'm not brave enough to leave my little pool of games I'll play. I started with newbies, then moved to open setups and haven't felt the need to play any other type of game.

[Magua]

Slight hijacking: Just finished FakeGod's Touhou-themed game. Fakeclaims were not given to the scum. A subversion, as one of the (Town) characters in the game started the game knowing everyone's character name, so that wasn't an issue, but I knew nothing about Touhou and it was a role madness game -- if I had had to claim a Mafia role based on the character flavor I would've been sunk. Knowing that this is the case, I am very unlikely to sign up for another game by the same mod because I don't want my unfamiliarity with the theme/flavor to become a penalty.

[reinoe]

Slight hijacking: Just finished FakeGod's Touhou-themed game. Fakeclaims were not given to the scum. A subversion, as one of the (Town) characters in the game started the game knowing everyone's character name, so that wasn't an issue, but I knew nothing about Touhou and it was a role madness game -- if I had had to claim a Mafia role based on the character flavor I would've been sunk. Knowing that this is the case, I am very unlikely to sign up for another game by the same mod because I don't want my unfamiliarity with the theme/flavor to become a penalty.

I'm sorry to hear that you did not have access to The TouHou Character Wikipedia, despite your apparent internet connection. Did you make FakeGod aware of this tragedy after the game?

[Magua]

I'm sorry to hear that you did not have access to The TouHou Character Wikipedia, despite your apparent internet connection. Did you make FakeGod aware of this tragedy after the game?

Ah, I see from your sarcasm that I was unclear. I will restate:

I play Mafia games here to play Mafia. I don't care about the Touhou flavor, and more importantly, I don't want to care about the Touhou flavor. It's not relevant to what I want to be doing, which is, I'll reiterate, playing Mafia. If the mod wants to bring other skillsets into their game and make them important, that's fine, their prerogative, but not what I'm going to enjoy or want to play in again.

Does that help? Kindly reply sarcastically if it doesn't, and I'll use smaller words.

[Jake from State Farm]

I feel if a mod is running a theme game, they should offer flavor fake claims. But that's off topic of course

[Lost Butterfly]

I'm not taking the additional step of giving scum extra help.

You haven't really explained how scum get a bigger benefit from a game setup up "the normal way", than yours? What's the difference? Also making the scum ambiguous in the flavour can be boring/not always work very well.

[reinoe]

I'm sorry to hear that you did not have access to The TouHou Character Wikipedia, despite your apparent internet connection. Did you make FakeGod aware of this tragedy after the game?

Ah, I see from your sarcasm that I was unclear. I will restate:

I play Mafia games here to play Mafia. I don't care about the Touhou flavor, and more importantly, I don't want to care about the Touhou flavor. It's not relevant to what I want to be doing, which is, I'll reiterate, playing Mafia. If the mod wants to bring other skillsets into their game and make them important, that's fine, their prerogative, but not what I'm going to enjoy or want to play in again.

Does that help? Kindly reply sarcastically if it doesn't, and I'll use smaller words.

If you're scum don't get "caught". If you are "caught" then you should be willing to put in the effort to save yourself. Now I understand that some people would rather be handed a get out of jail free card, I already acknowledged that my opinion is in the minority. I did not know that accessing a wiki is beyond the scope of so many players but I'm learning new things about mafia all the time.

[Antihero]

I play Mafia games here to play Mafia. I don't care about the Touhou flavor, and more importantly, I don't want to care about the Touhou flavor. It's not relevant to what I want to be doing, which is, I'll reiterate, playing Mafia. If the mod wants to bring other skillsets into their game and make them important, that's fine, their prerogative, but not what I'm going to enjoy or want to play in again.

to be fair to fakegod... the game was a upick, which kind of inherently assumes a flavor knowledge.

[Antihero]

If you're scum don't get "caught". If you are "caught" then you should be willing to put in the effort to save yourself.

...you're still not taking into account endgame/massclaim situations. then, for scum, it's a game of "claim something random and hope that it's not in the game", which is a game of luck and that's not really the spirit of mafia.

parting words because it's off-topic: i'm telling you renoie... i've run theme games and i've played a lot of theme games. if you make your games breakable by flavor, you will receive post-game ass chewings and people will not sign up for your games. that's my advice, take it or leave it i guess.

[zMuffinMan]

But scum, when cornered, should be forced to think about the game they're playing when they're caught. Fake claims should take effort.

Whether or not this should be the case is debatable

But apart from that, here's a list of reasons you're wrong:

- Not all themes have that large a character base, so the chance of scum getting caught out PURELY based on flavour is extremely possible if you don't give them fake claims in some themes
- Not everyone is familiar enough with flavour of some themes to know which characters are "obscure" and which aren't, so suggesting that scum could choose an obscure character to fake-claim is not really viable
- Even if you are familiar enough to know which characters are obscure and unlikely to be in the game, you're still basically trying to outguess the mod and hope to get lucky. And if you happen to choose a flavour claim that's already in the game, you get caught out PURELY from flavour, which should never... ever... fucking happen in a mafia game.
- Further, if you somehow manage to pick an obscure enough character that you won't be counter-claimed and you're lucky enough to be right, it still limits potential fake-claims, because not only would you have to research the character and figure out what makes sense with flavour, you'd also only be able to claim a role that makes sense with that flavour. Which is dumb, because let's say, for example, that someone tracks you to X, you need to both come up with a reasonable fake character claim and then something that matches that character to explain why you visited X, which leaves you open to counter-claims from several different angles (this would not occur in a game without flavour)
- As others have mentioned, games could be nearly broken by flavour claims. And again, that's not how mafia should be played

You seem like you've been stung by believing someone's claim based purely on flavour. Bad luck, I guess, but fake flavour claims (and sometimes fake role claims if roles are dependent on flavour) are a necessity. If you weren't trying to game the flavour, you wouldn't have an issue here.