Self-Voting: Why, barring setup, you should never do it

[Mr. Flay]

*sigh* Round and round we go.

[Thor665]

you gotta play to win, not to make a point, right?

Just out of curiosity.

When a player says 'I don't care anymore, lynch me!' and self votes.
There are two possibilities.

1. They are scum working an angle - optimal pro town move is to lynch them.
2. They are twon who already has some suspicion on them, has no way to justify or defend it, and would prefer drama to scumhunting - optimal pro town move is to lynch them.

What am I missing here?
Like, say I claim Miller and after a mass claim there are no claimed Cops. Regardless of my alignment I'm a pro-town lynch.
Just because town does something that makes killing them pro-town does not preclude it from being pro-town and it does make the goal to avoid town making pro-scum moves because *that* is playing to win.

[Psyche]

if you can be confident that player X is town, very rarely should you lynch them
i don't think player X claiming miller or playing poorly is one of those times discernably town players should be lynched
crappy play can usually be ignored

in other words, in both of the scenarios you put forward and most others, the optimal protown move is

to lynch scum

if you settle for any less specifically so that site meta will change, you're not playing to win

[Thor665]

You presume discernible in those comments.
Most self voters, if discernible, should be discernible *prior* to the self vote. If you need the self-vote to discern I am suspicious you are hunting for tells wrong.

I will disagree with you about that claimed Miller, but will happily remember it if I'm ever scum in a game with you

[Psyche]

in general i presume that everyone's reads are shit and will always be shit
so this is all just theoretical babble

[Thor665]

It is not - simple question, do you support town self voting?

By your own discussion of 'we shouldn't lynch town for bad play' then I presume your answer is 'no' because someone self-voting is trying to lynch town.
So you agree, you're just arguing that once they do a pro-scum act they should be assessed. Which I also agree with, though I note that I treat the self-vote as null always, because as a pro-scum wifom play I don't see value in assessing it.

[Psyche]

In general, should we trust our reads?
Most of my research says no.
But then I wonder what the alternative is.

Anyway, I never claimed that a self-vote is ever a town tell. I claimed that you shouldn't lynch a townread for self-voting, particularly in order to change site meta or punish bad play. Those don't count as playing to win. Pedit suggests you agree with me, but I hope I'm arguing with someone somewhere in this thread.

[Sakura Hana]

If a town read ever gets to the point of self-voting it's because they aren't being very town read by everyone else now are they.

[Psyche]

so..?

[Faraday]

wasting a lynch on mafia principles is way more anti-town than showing people they can get away with self-voting

ya, I don't understand people who do this either

[Faraday]

Like, say I claim Miller and after a mass claim there are no claimed Cops. Regardless of my alignment I'm a pro-town lynch.

Lynching a townie isn't pro town, unless you're using some weird definition. (Also this isn't super uncommon so doing it in this partic case seems kinda dumb)

[FakeGod]

wasting a lynch on mafia principles is way more anti-town than showing people they can get away with self-voting

ya, I don't understand people who do this either

it's to teach them a lesson

d'oh

[Bicephalous Bob]

if you policy lynched a townie for self-voting because your policy is to lynch anyone who did an obviously anti-town thing, then the next step is to push for your own policy lynch and self-vote

[reinoe]

Like, say I claim Miller and after a mass claim there are no claimed Cops. Regardless of my alignment I'm a pro-town lynch.
Just because town does something that makes killing them pro-town does not preclude it from being pro-town and it does make the goal to avoid town making pro-scum moves because *that* is playing to win.

Sometimes the town as a whole just plays like shit. Like have a Miller and a Tracker and nobody realizes that that shit don't add up. I'd consider self-voting in that situation to no longer be affiliated with a town that can't figure out that paradox. I'd self-vote before replacing out.

[Cheery Dog]

In general, should we trust our reads?
Most of my research says no.
But then I wonder what the alternative is.

Anyway, I never claimed that a self-vote is ever a town tell. I claimed that you shouldn't lynch a townread for self-voting, particularly in order to change site meta or punish bad play. Those don't count as playing to win. Pedit suggests you agree with me, but I hope I'm arguing with someone somewhere in this thread.

Just sheep a player that doesn't look like they know what they're talking about but is still somehow making sense.

[Thor665]

Like, say I claim Miller and after a mass claim there are no claimed Cops. Regardless of my alignment I'm a pro-town lynch.

Lynching a townie isn't pro town, unless you're using some weird definition. (Also this isn't super uncommon so doing it in this partic case seems kinda dumb)

In a theoretical and very broad sense - yes, every town lynch is anti-town and pro-scum.

That said, there are lynches that are pro-town in purpose and intent and with the information available to town, that end up being lynches on town.

The two are different things.

[FakeGod]

if you policy lynched a townie for self-voting because your policy is to lynch anyone who did an obviously anti-town thing, then the next step is to push for your own policy lynch and self-vote

GIMME BACK BY WESTERN AANG

I NEED MY STREET CONTACT BACK

[Konowa]

Sometimes the town as a whole just plays like shit. Like have a Miller and a Tracker and nobody realizes that that shit don't add up. I'd consider self-voting in that situation to no longer be affiliated with a town that can't figure out that paradox. I'd self-vote before replacing out.

Was this a dig? I feel like this was a dig? I almost made it work

[Zachrulez]

but when you take it to the main thing core element of someone going "FUCK THIS GAME IM PISSED SCREW YOU selfvote" as town its a player being clouded by emotions and they dont think logical.

Congratulations, you've just given scum cover to do this as well.

:ed: what quadz said.

It's not impossible to tell when it's being faked.

[Thor665]

Nor is it impossible to fall for it when it is faked.

Town shouldn't do it till we master that one.

[Zachrulez]

Nor is it impossible to fall for it when it is faked.

Town shouldn't do it till we master that one.

You can fall for any number of things when you're playing mafia.

Still doesn't change the fact that if you think a player is likely town you shouldn't lynch them.

[Scarab]

We are all prisoners

[quadz08]

of our owwnnn device

[Thor665]

Still doesn't change the fact that if you think a player is likely town you shouldn't lynch them.

I wasn't aware I was advocating that, but, sure.
I am advocating that self votes are not a good scumhunting tool and should never be used and ignored when they are.

[Marquis]

well that's different