The normal queue is broken

[Thestatusquo]

Guys, the way we do normals is broken. The normal queue is broken. No one is signing up for normal games. I can't put my finger on precisely why this is, (though I suspect it has something to do with how sanitized we make them. No one wants to play a completely generic game. but this is a topic for a completely different thread) but the fact itself is undeniable.

Prof Fridays normal has been in signups for just under a month. Two players have signed up. Aegor's open took 20 days. DrPeppers took a full month. I went back and looked, we are averaging just about 27 days from game post to game fill. That is not a healthy queue. That is a queue that is just stuttering along. At the rate we're currently at players have to wait more than a YEAR to mod a normal game. Basically, almost no one is playing mini normals and it is causing the pace of the queue to slow to an absolute crawl.

This would not be a problem if we didn't have the normal queue in many ways as a proving ground for moderators to get their experience. I understand that we have the open queue and I understand that this helps, but frankly I don't think the open queue is a good place to gauge whether someone should get moderator privileges to begin with. I don't think it actually teaches the skills most important for being a moderator.

I understand that some (few) people do enjoy playing normals, so I'm not proposing we get rid of the convention entirely. I think we just get rid of the queue as it stands. It is abundantly clear to me that the demand from the player side of normals is nowhere near what our queue requires it to be for that queue structure to function.

I think a much more effective solution for the demand for actual normal games would be similar to the way we currently run large themes. Moderator decides they want to run a normal. Moderator PMs set up into NRG. Game gets approved. Mod posts signup threads. The only reasons we wouldn't do this are twofold. A) Necause it would launch too many normal games at once, but look at the results in the second paragraph: That simply isn't going to happen. At the rate of a new game a month this is more than reasonable. B) Because we would be inundated with new players trying to get their modding requirements. I propose we get out of this system entirely. In my mind there is no reason a new mod can't run a theme game, so long as it is reviewed and there is an experienced co-moderator. I propose we let them do so. Create a set of requirements (must be reviewed by a qualified player, must have a very experienced co mod, etc. whatever will keep them accountable and help them learn) and then go to town.

The point isn't the specific system I'm proposing. It's for the list mods and the powers that be and all of us to discuss. The point is there needs to be SOME new system, because the one we currently have is not working.

Let's fix this.

[mykonian]

That is rather alarming

Probably one route to finding out what's going on here is asking why people don't join said games. By their nature, normal games don't change much over time, and this rate of signups is much slower than how I think to remember it.

[saulres]

I don't think the open queue is a good place to gauge whether someone should get moderator privileges to begin with. I don't think it actually teaches the skills most important for being a moderator.

This is exactly backwards. The Open Queue is a great place for a mod to learn the most important skills for

running

a game. It's not a good place for someone to learn how to

design

a setup, and that's a key difference.

[Thestatusquo]

Whether or not you agree with my premise of how we should get new mods experience (and reasonable people can and will disagree) you are ignoring the larger point of the thread, which is that the normal queue does not work. AT ALL. The problem is caused by the fact that we have a much larger supply of moderators (who only want to mod opens and normals because they have to in order to get their experience.) than a demand to play those games (virtually non-existent right now)

We need to fix this problem, and I think the best way is to come up with a new way to get new moderators experience and privs. As an aside, I think the requirements I suggested allow us to correct for new mods not having the skills to run a game just as well as it corrects for not being able to design setups perfectly, but that's just tangential to the point of this thread.

[saulres]

You're right, I commented on a tree but wasn't looking at the forest. That's because I don't play Normals, so I guess I'm part of the problem.

When I get more time I'll comment on your other points. I think they're very valid.

[zoraster]

prof friday's game took under 3 weeks to fill

[zoraster]

Whether or not you agree with my premise of how we should get new mods experience (and reasonable people can and will disagree) you are ignoring the larger point of the thread, which is that the normal queue does not work. AT ALL.

The problem is caused by the fact that we have a much larger supply of moderators

(who only want to mod opens and normals because they have to in order to get their experience.) than a demand to play those games (virtually non-existent right now)

We need to fix this problem, and I think the best way is to come up with a new way to get new moderators experience and privs. As an aside, I think the requirements I suggested allow us to correct for new mods not having the skills to run a game just as well as it corrects for not being able to design setups perfectly, but that's just tangential to the point of this thread.

This is not nearly as true now as it once was. I don't think this is something that really needs to be fixed, though over the past few months the queue has had some other issues as Tierce has had some other real life things come up.

[Thestatusquo]

I see that now. I was only looking at tierce posts. I don't think it changes my overall point though. three weeks is still a huge time and doesn't change the fact that it would still take a mod over a year to get through the normal queue as it stands.

[Thestatusquo]

Just under a year. Even if three weeks were the average, if the queue stands at 14 people thats 42 weeks.

I honestly dont understand your attitude. "This problem used to be worse so therefore we shouldn't try to make it better?"

Bizarre.

[zoraster]

I don't see three weeks as particularly problematic.

It takes nothing like a full year to get through the queue right now. It took about 3.5 months for Prof Friday, for example, which is if lower than our peak length and would have been much shorter if not for other issues.

Most people on that list have not received approval. Many flake on the review process. In the normal queue, it is a mistake to look at the list. Look instead at the approved list as that's the actual queue. If you get your game approved quickly (which is possible, I assure you), then you probably only have a 2-3 month wait.

[Thestatusquo]

"3 weeks is fine."

14 people in the queue. 3 weeks. 10 months to get through the queue.

[zoraster]

i edited my post to address that, sorry. thought i could get it before you saw.

[Thestatusquo]

Show me data. That's not what the data looks like to me.

[chamber]

I vastly prefer normal mechanics to themed mechanics. I don't play normals because I don't trust first time mods/they attract worst player lists. This will be a problem no matter where they mod first, I would trust them less elsewhere.

[zoraster]

My data is significantly more indicative of the wait than yours.

Prof Fridays: 3 months to enter sign ups
Marquis (about to enter sign ups): 3 months to enter sign ups
DoctorPepper: 1.5 months to enter sign ups

[Thestatusquo]

Then you could avoid their games and pick the normal games that are not run by first time mods? I don't understand how my proposed solution wouldn't completely solve your problem?

[Thestatusquo]

Also, LOL at zoraster claiming that the queue moves faster because players drop out. PLAYERS ARE DROPPING OUT BECAUSE THE QUEUE IS TOO LONG.

You can't take a negative (i.e. the queue functions like shit and causes people to abandon it) and claim it as a positive.)

[zoraster]

Most mods drop out in place, so to speak, rather than /out. They do so by never following through with the NRG and getting their setup approved. Take a look at that mod list. Only Marquis's game could enter sign ups at the moment because it's the only one approved for normalcy.

If you /in and get your game approved quickly, you will enter sign ups relatively shortly barring some mass influx of people finally getting their game approved.

[wgeurts]

Mabye a new way to help make new moderators more trust worthy is to do something like Newbie games IC but as a mod. What I mean by this is having an experienced co-mod simultaneously run the game and he will only take action if it goes wrong. This would provide a fail-safe system causing the distrust of normal games to diminish heavily.

[wgeurts]

Also the normals do seem a little strict, I was suprised when I saw bus driver and the likes were banned.

[Thestatusquo]

Catbug (12:03)
I think if they did something like, SEs should have completed one mini-normal, in addition to the 2 newbie games as a newbie in order to SE
Catbug (12:03)
and ICs suggesting that newbies finished with their first two games join the normal queue
Catbug (12:03)
would be a good idea
Catbug (12:03)
it seems to me the natural progression out of the newbie queue
Catbug (12:04)
normal games are a good introduction to closed setups, new roles, etc
Thestatusquo (12:04)
You're suggesting that we replace newbie games entirely
Thestatusquo (12:04)
with normal games?
Catbug (12:04)
no not at all
Thestatusquo (12:04)
Because
Thestatusquo (12:04)
I actually really like that idea
Catbug (12:04)
oh lol
Thestatusquo (12:04)
even if its not what you were suggesting
Thestatusquo (12:04)
haha
chamber (12:04)
Hes suggesting we actively funnel newbies to normals after a game or 2
Catbug (12:04)
well i think they may be a suitable middle ground
Thestatusquo (12:04)
she
Catbug (12:05)
yeah exactly
Catbug (12:05)
like it doesn't need to be a requirement or anything
Catbug (12:05)
but making the option more visibley available
Thestatusquo (12:05)
I kind of like the idea of having new mods and new players play together
Catbug (12:05)
yep
Catbug (12:05)
me too
Thestatusquo (12:05)
that keeps them both out of everyones way til they learn what they're doing
Catbug (12:05)
lol
Catbug (12:05)
that too
Catbug (12:06)
but also because they may be familiar with each other after playing newbies together

What do we think about the possibility of making the normal queue as it is currently constructed the newbie queue? I think its a really good idea, because it lets newer players and mods make their mistakes together and away from the more complex games of the site.

[Faraday]

If we're trying to retain new players, putting them with new, and potentially bad mods doesn't seem like a wise idea.

[Faraday]

Also, you can encourage people to normals all you want - but even newer olayers will still probably prefer to try a theme, even if it's a little more complex, just because they're more interesting. Also for a lot of people who come from other sites normals seem boring compared to the "role madness" games they may be used to.

[Thestatusquo]

We're not at a point where our biggest concern should be with attracting new players. We're the largest website for mafia in the world. If someone wants to try out mafia, they're going to come here.

I think more newbies are turned off by our boring, open, lite version of the game than would be by the mods who messed up in the normal queue.

[Faraday]

Maybe reck's idea to be more loose with the restrictions on the normal queue is actually a good one - so keep the normal queue as is but give mods more leeway with their flavour so that it might attract more people to their games (and perhaps expand the whitelist to give more options). I think the big problem is that normals are fairly boring to a lot of people, combine that with a first time mod and it's not a big draw.