The normal queue is broken

[BBmolla]

CTD is still alive?

whats up

[BBmolla]

So Matrix 6 is a unplayable setup that's unbalanced?

I dislike it personally.

[BBmolla]

Honestly, I don't have an opinion one way or another on the "Newbie mods in Newbie games" issue, although I do like the suggestion of allowing Micro Opens/Normals to be run by first time mods. Frankly, I'm not sure why that isn't already the case.

!!!

[Jingle]

I think balance in a newbie game is a reasonable assumption. Also, the current setup of opens/semi-opens is incredibly easy to run/rinse/repeat. Frankly, I don't have a problem with the way Newbies run now and am of the opinion "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Whether newbie mods in newbie games would be bad is debatable (and I don't think I'm the most well informed on the subject), but the setup itself is fine IMO.

If it wouldn't add a shitton of work, I'd be all for adding a third category between "vanilla" mafia and Themes. That would likely be another full queue though, and I'm not sure that the playerbase would require it, nor that we would see a noticeable change in the speed of any of the queues.

PEdit: Yeah, BB. So far that's the best suggestion I've seen on the topic. I also liked sthar8's ideas.

[Thestatusquo]

CTD, what do you think of the queue wait times for first mods? Do you think 3-4 months is too long? Is it just right? If it's too long, how do we create scenarios in which first time mods don't have to wait an extra 4 months on top of the 3 they already have to wait in order to moderate?

[reinoe]

Matrix 6 should be replaced because ____

[Thesp]

So Matrix 6 is a unplayable setup that's unbalanced?

I dislike it personally.

Can you explain why? I've skimmed this thread and see a lot of railing on about, but nothing concisely meaningful.

Newbie games are pretty awesomely structured, I think (and I personally love Matrix 6 as an ideal starter setup), and I'm not seeing why they should be messed with right now. If someone wants to give me a succinct answer as to why they should be, I'm all ears.

The wait time on Mini Normal games is a bit long, but it looks like they're going on average just under every two weeks this year. (This is based on a quick count of how many Mini Normals have a first post of January 1, 2014 or later - 28.) It's not great, but that doesn't seem atrociously long to me. Is there some huge problem I'm missing? I feel like I'm missing something.

[Thesp]

CTD, what do you think of the queue wait times for first mods? Do you think 3-4 months is too long? Is it just right? If it's too long, how do we create scenarios in which first time mods don't have to wait an extra 4 months on top of the 3 they already have to wait in order to moderate?

I don't think 3-4 months is too long to wait to moderate a game,

especially

for new mods. I want to make sure they're still around after 3-4 months after signing up to mod, personally. It wouldn't hurt if the wait time to mod was decreased a bit, but I think that is an issue of the ratio of (player base / people wanting to be mods) more than anything else.

[Thestatusquo]

CTD, what do you think of the queue wait times for first mods? Do you think 3-4 months is too long? Is it just right? If it's too long, how do we create scenarios in which first time mods don't have to wait an extra 4 months on top of the 3 they already have to wait in order to moderate?

I don't think 3-4 months is too long to wait to moderate a game,

especially

for new mods. I want to make sure they're still around after 3-4 months after signing up to mod, personally. It wouldn't hurt if the wait time to mod was decreased a bit, but I think that is an issue of the ratio of (player base / people wanting to be mods) more than anything else.

It is too long in my opinion for two reasons, first because we already have an imposed wait time for new mods. If we want to increase this, we should just increase it. Relying on the speed of the queue to check for new players sticking around is inelegant at best. Secondly, it has a splashover problem. Mods who are not new who would like to run normal games don't do so because the queue time is ridiculous.

[Thestatusquo]

Thesp, my problems with the structure of newbie games have nothing to do with matrix6 in particular, but rather have to do with how small setups with open design do not actually teach people how to play mafia, and do not actually provide a good test to new players to see if they can grok the game and are a good fit for our particular way of playing mafia, which I see as one of the core purposes of newbie games.

They also aren't very enjoyable, as the stripped down versions of things tend to be. I realize this is a personal opinion, but I think its born out by the facts that a) not very many experienced players sign up as ICs and b) these setups do not fire very frequently outside of the newbie queue.

[Thesp]

CTD, what do you think of the queue wait times for first mods? Do you think 3-4 months is too long? Is it just right? If it's too long, how do we create scenarios in which first time mods don't have to wait an extra 4 months on top of the 3 they already have to wait in order to moderate?

I don't think 3-4 months is too long to wait to moderate a game,

especially

for new mods. I want to make sure they're still around after 3-4 months after signing up to mod, personally. It wouldn't hurt if the wait time to mod was decreased a bit, but I think that is an issue of the ratio of (player base / people wanting to be mods) more than anything else.

It is too long in my opinion for two reasons, first because we already have an imposed wait time for new mods. If we want to increase this, we should just increase it. Relying on the speed of the queue to check for new players sticking around is inelegant at best. Secondly, it has a splashover problem. Mods who are not new who would like to run normal games don't do so because the queue time is ridiculous.

I disagree on both counts. I think a delay between wanting to run a game and actually running the game is inherently worthwhile to verify the person still will have interest over that time period. That's not to say that an egregious delay would be okay, but I don't think 3 months is egregious. At all. And I don't know of anyone who wants to mod a normal game but won't because the wait time is 3 months rather than 1 month, though they may indeed exist. I just haven't seen evidence of it.

*ponders signing up to mod a normal*

Thesp, my problems with the structure of newbie games have nothing to do with matrix6 in particular, but rather have to do with how small setups with open design do not actually teach people how to play mafia, and do not actually provide a good test to new players to see if they can grok the game and are a good fit for our particular way of playing mafia, which I see as one of the core purposes of newbie games.

They also aren't very enjoyable, as the stripped down versions of things tend to be. I realize this is a personal opinion, but I think its born out by the facts that a) not very many experienced players sign up as ICs and b) these setups do not fire very frequently outside of the newbie queue.

I disagree 100% on this. I think they teach people the mechanics of mafia and our posting style very, very well. I also think that (a) and (b) that you state aren't terribly convincing. I'm inclined to think ICs stay away because of the playerbase and responsibilities involved with a Newbie game rather than its setup. I also don't think these setups fire often outside of the Newbie queue

because

they are available in the Newbie queue, and because fewer people tend to play normal/open setups (as the data has been indicating).

[Thestatusquo]

Then we just disagree, though I think you missed what I was actually saying for the first quote. I'm not saying I think there should be no wait time on modding a game, I am saying that if you want a wait time on modding a game, you impose a wait time. If you want to make sure newbies wait 6 months before we allow them to mod a game, you say you can't mod a game for six months. You don't just hope that the queue takes care of this. It's inelegant because it does not always accomplish that goal, and because it prevents others from quickly modding normal's when they want to, and because the wait time fluctuates. Sometimes it's two months, sometimes its six. Using the normal queue specifically slows it down. If we didn't funnel newbie mods there, it would be probably 10x as fast.

I think we have a fundamental disagreement here. You don't think 4 months is slow? That's an eternity. You should not have to wait 4 months from signup to running a game. I think your perception may be colored by your time on site, when day 1s sometimes took 2 months. This is not the case anymore. There is a new paradigm for the speed of mafia games, and 4 months is a very long time.

There have been examples in this thread. Pokerface didn't sign up for one until like 4 months ago, exactly because of the length of the queue. He's been on the site since 2009 iirc. I am currently in line and considered signing up for an open just to get it out of the way, even though I hate opens and would find modding them even more boring. The fact that the normal queue is almost exclusively populated by first time mods also gives credence to the argument that established mods avoid it because it is too slow.

[zoraster]

I kind of agree with Shea in part. I think if the primary reason we have someone waiting in a queue is so that they wait, we're not being very smart and we should just make them wait officially. That's particularly true now that we have far more meaningful hoops to jump through with the NRG review process, if all we're concerned about is someone showing that they're serious in between when they /in to mod and when they launch their game.

But as I've said, the wait is not particularly bothersome to me. If I have to choose a type of moderator to wait, I choose new moderators every time. If a new mod has to wait, they have to wait. It isn't my goal, but it also isn't harmful.

[Thestatusquo]

Its harmful for the two reasons I stated in the post directly above yours.

[zoraster]

We disagree on what is harmful then.

[Thesp]

Then we just disagree, though I think you missed what I was actually saying for the first quote. I'm not saying I think there should be no wait time on modding a game, I am saying that if you want a wait time on modding a game, you impose a wait time. If you want to make sure newbies wait 6 months before we allow them to mod a game, you say you can't mod a game for six months. You don't just hope that the queue takes care of this.

I understand what you're saying on the first quote, I just disagree with you. I don't think it's a worthwhile design goal for

anyone

(but especially players who have been on the site for only 3 months) to be able to enter the modding queue and run a game right away. I think a waiting period is beneficial for helping ensure moderators are going to stick around when they get to run their game, to make sure that enthusiasm doesn't cool off. (If the enthusiasm for moderating cools off during the wait time in the queue, it's sure going to cool down in the game itself, which is more catastrophic.) I think the wait time to enter the moderating queue and the wait time of actually moderating a game serve two different and equally useful functions.

I'm not sure my perception is colored by early 2-month day-long games. I'm pretty vocally on record that long days like that are very, very bad, and strongly support 2-week (or 3-week

at most

) days, with rare exception.

[zoraster]

for what it's worth, this is interesting:

Basically XOelf, your idea has already been ripped to shreds, but let me add a couple of points.

First of all, who cares if someone has to wait to mod? I have argued this many times, but a long wait to mod is good for the site. The longer a mod has to wait, the longer they are forced to play games and figure out what mafia is actually about before they can willy nilly mod a game. This is good because it 1) Makes the mod have a decent grasp of game balance, and b) makes sure that they actually like mafia and are going to stick around to finish modding the game and not take off. Newbie games have BY FAR the highest ratio of replacements:Original players.

If people can't deal with the wait to mod, then I say tough shit. I am far more interested in promoting good games, and keeping a healthy site than I am about the individual whims of mods who want to mod faster. I have been playing mafia for three years now, and I STILL don't know everything about game balance and set up crafting. I know a lot, sure, but if I'm still learning at 3 years, think how far back on the learning curves newer players must be?

Lastly, as thok has pointed out, shifting mod requirements shifts where the queue is, not how the fact that there IS a queue, or even how big the queue IS. As it is, it takes 12 players per one mod. If you increase the number of mods, the number of games increases, and thus it will take longer for each individual game to fill up. This means potential long waiting times to play the game. Bad news bears.

There really is no problem with the current rules system, as it is implemented, people just complain about it because it means they personally have to wait longer to mod, but that is good for the site.

The only other thing I wanted to touch on is Yaws comments on a lack of consequence for bad modding. In some sense, this is a tough line to walk, because we don't want mods that screw up to never be able to mod again, but we DO want to moderate the pool so that players don't consistently get bad experiences.

Any thoughts on this?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not allowed to change an opinion I had 5 years ago?

[Thesp]

for what it's worth, this is interesting:

Basically XOelf, your idea has already been ripped to shreds, but let me add a couple of points.

First of all, who cares if someone has to wait to mod? I have argued this many times, but a long wait to mod is good for the site. The longer a mod has to wait, the longer they are forced to play games and figure out what mafia is actually about before they can willy nilly mod a game. This is good because it 1) Makes the mod have a decent grasp of game balance, and b) makes sure that they actually like mafia and are going to stick around to finish modding the game and not take off. Newbie games have BY FAR the highest ratio of replacements:Original players.

If people can't deal with the wait to mod, then I say tough shit. I am far more interested in promoting good games, and keeping a healthy site than I am about the individual whims of mods who want to mod faster. I have been playing mafia for three years now, and I STILL don't know everything about game balance and set up crafting. I know a lot, sure, but if I'm still learning at 3 years, think how far back on the learning curves newer players must be?

Lastly, as thok has pointed out, shifting mod requirements shifts where the queue is, not how the fact that there IS a queue, or even how big the queue IS. As it is, it takes 12 players per one mod. If you increase the number of mods, the number of games increases, and thus it will take longer for each individual game to fill up. This means potential long waiting times to play the game. Bad news bears.

There really is no problem with the current rules system, as it is implemented, people just complain about it because it means they personally have to wait longer to mod, but that is good for the site.

The only other thing I wanted to touch on is Yaws comments on a lack of consequence for bad modding. In some sense, this is a tough line to walk, because we don't want mods that screw up to never be able to mod again, but we DO want to moderate the pool so that players don't consistently get bad experiences.

Any thoughts on this?

I forgot that mini normals used to have 12 player limits, rather than the current 13. I imagine that requiring an even larger playerbase to fill games has at least a small impact on how frequently games fill.

[zoraster]

I'm not allowed to change an opinion I had 5 years ago?

Sure you are. My opinions have changed on a good number of things since 2009. I used to edit vote counts into people's posts, for goodness' sake!

But you argued pretty forcefully the direct opposite last time, and you've kind of treated it like this is this obvious thing that those in power or what not just want to ignore. Whereas while your opinion may have changed, I doubt you'd call past-shea simply someone with his head stuck in the mud.

Anyway, the reason I bring it up is that in the first case you had no personal interest in whether or not queues were fast or slow for mods (to my knowledge at least). Now you do. Maybe you just have more empathy because you're in a different situation, but it kind of plays out like now you've got an interest in fast queues and you just don't want to wait.

[Thestatusquo]

Ah, the good ol "You have a personal stake so your argument is invalid" stance. Really professional line to take there.

Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that that was five years ago and the situation was completely different. Couldn't be that at all. I suppose reck must have a personal stake here too. Probably everyone who is on the opposite side of the argument has less than pure motives.

Seriously, I can't believe you actually just made that post.

[wgeurts]

Just a point coming from the side of the party that isn't eligible to mod. The "The queue wait is good as it shows they will stick around" argument is bunk. We already have to wait 3 months to sign-up to mod and play at least one game, that's less than the current queue wait at the moment. If we're still here after 3 months we probally will be in another 3, it also seems rather elitist to allow more experienced mods faster wait times, how are unexperienced mods meant to then become "experienced" if the only games they can sign up for take a 5 month wait?

[Thesp]

Ah, the good ol "You have a personal stake so your argument is invalid" stance. Really professional line to take there.

Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that that was five years ago and the situation was completely different. Couldn't be that at all. I suppose reck must have a personal stake here too. Probably everyone who is on the opposite side of the argument has less than pure motives.

Seriously, I can't believe you actually just made that post.

Wait - weren't you just saying that my opinion was colored by my personal situation? How is it that when zoraster suggests that your opinion may be colored by your personal situation, it's a personal affront?

Just a point coming from the side of the party that isn't eligible to mod. The "The queue wait is good as it shows they will stick around" argument is bunk. We already have to wait 3 months to sign-up to mod and play at least one game, that's less than the current queue wait at the moment. If we're still here after 3 months we probally will be in another 3, it also seems rather elitist to allow more experienced mods faster wait times, how are unexperienced mods meant to then become "experienced" if the only games they can sign up for take a 5 month wait?

1) It does not necessarily follow that if a player is here after 3 months, that same player will still be here after 6 months.

2) The delay in the Normal Queue isn't designed to be inherently punitive on new mods, it's a natural outgrowth of player demand for particular queues. My last two games in the Mini Theme Queue that I modded took between 1.5-2 months from signup to taking players. 3 months isn't a whole lot longer than that - I don't think this is about elitism.

[Thestatusquo]

No, I was saying that your perception was colored by the way you expect mafia games to be. You have pointed out that you tbink this is false, and I have accepted that argument. That is drastically different from claiming that someone is only making an argument because they personally gain from it. The first one is a claim that perceptions can effect opinions, the second is a claim that the person arguing is not genuine.

[Thestatusquo]

Which, frankly, is indicative of the disrespectful way in which zoraster and vi have addressed this discussion.