New Queue Structure Proposal

[xRECKONERx]

Reck's Queue Structure Proposal - rev. 10/22/2014

Goal:

The goal of this proposal is to alleviate some problems I see within the queue system.

#1) Normal games have slowed to a crawl, meaning it takes first-time moderators much longer to get through the queue. (For reference, 37 normal games have been run thus far in 2014, but 96 theme games have been run.)

#2) The sanitized/purist vision of 'normal' has become less and less in line with what the site currently views as a 'standard' game of mafia.

#3) Normal moderators are left with limited creative space (flavor restrictions and limited whitelist) and thus must run otherwise standard normal games in the theme queue.

#4) Newbie games are not indicative of the MafiaScum experience as a whole and do not offer a solid first look at our site culture, meta, and playstyle.

Proposal:

The full proposal is viewable at the above link. Current changes are as follows:

First-Time Moderator Options (Three Months on Site)

Newbie Game Queue

: Scrap the old newbie setup and allow first-time mods to mod a closed 10-13 player setup here. Available roles will be limited and no flavor will be allowed. First-time moderators will have an IC-like co-mod to help them through the process. Each newbie game will have at least 3 experienced players, and at least 6 newbie players. The other 1-4 slots may be filled by either player type. This queue will function similarly to the current mini-normal queue.

Open Game Queue

: Will still function the same as it does now.

Second Modded Game Options

Micro Game Queue

: Will still function the same as it does now, except for the modified normalcy requirements.

Standard Normal Game Queue

: 'Standard' replaces 'mini' to better illustrate its purpose. The normal whitelist will be vastly expanded to include most non-bastard / non-fringe mafia roles and modifiers. Hydras will still not be allowed. Flavor will be allowed, but moderators will be required to ensure flavor-breaking is impossible (either by randomizing flavor names/alignments, or providing sufficient fakeclaims to the non-town roles). No unique mechanics are allowed.

Standard Theme Game Queue

: I want to find a word to replace 'theme', but have been unable. This queue will feature games with non-normal roles, unique mechanics, weird factional distribution (while still adhering to uninformed majority vs informed minority), and heavier flavor influence.

Third+ Modded Game Option

Large Game Queue

: Both 'normal' and 'theme' games will be run out of this queue. 14+ players. Mods who /in to this queue announce what type of game they're running. Normals follow the standard normal guidelines and are sent to the NRG for review. Themes follow the theme definition. All large games require a backup mod/co-mod, regardless of mod experience.

Conclusion

:
The proposal isn't perfect yet, but I feel as though a structure following these guidelines will alleviate a lot of the issues with the current queue system, as well as update/modernize the queues to adjust to current site culture/playstyles.

[Vi]

Lexical replacements are probably not going to happen, as the people higher on the chain than me would call them "distinctions without differences".

4) Your proposed Newbie game queue is still a bad idea, even if the problem as stated here is true.

3) One unstated purpose of funneling first-time mods through the regulated queues (Normal and Open) is to make them show that they

can

run a game of Mafia well. To that end I don't think that there's a particular problem with them, considering that many first-time mods would run their Magnum Opus with all kinds of crap that will fall apart unless reined in.

2) Sure, but bear in mind that mith has Ideas about what the Normal queue should look like.

1) This is a problem independent of the structure of the queues now.

[xRECKONERx]

Mith indicated in the flavor discussion thread that he was open to including flavor.

[LlamaFluff]

#1) Normal games have slowed to a crawl, meaning it takes first-time moderators much longer to get through the queue. (For reference, 37 normal games have been run thus far in 2014, but 96 theme games have been run.)

So about 30% of players like playing normal games. Not sure what this is an issue

#2) The sanitized/purist vision of 'normal' has become less and less in line with what the site currently views as a 'standard' game of mafia.

So its not what YOU want. Okay. Again, about 30% of the mini games are normal. Do you have data backing up your claim or are you just throwing out stuff?

#3) Normal moderators are left with limited creative space (flavor restrictions and limited whitelist) and thus must run otherwise standard normal games in the theme queue.

This is a problem for first time mods only who want to run a theme game before anything else. Not sure what your point here even is. Mods who run normal games after they run a theme obviously like the restrictions as is.

#4) Newbie games are not indicative of the MafiaScum experience as a whole and do not offer a solid first look at our site culture, meta, and playstyle.

That's probably a good thing to at least get used to the pacing and arguments seen before throwing them in a hyper fast game with caustic players. I 100% believe that we would have a higher player retention rate with how we run newbie games now and if we mixed them heavily with other queues.

Newbie Game Queue

: Scrap the old newbie setup and allow first-time mods to mod a closed 10-13 player setup here. Available roles will be limited and no flavor will be allowed. First-time moderators will have an IC-like co-mod to help them through the process. Each newbie game will have at least 3 experienced players, and at least 6 newbie players. The other 1-4 slots may be filled by either player type. This queue will function similarly to the current mini-normal queue.

I could see a more closed setup newbie/IC/SE queue but:

1) There should be absolutely nothing added to the white list because its an INTRODUCTION to the site. Not a "check out all this crazy stuff" move. Like absolutely anything its best to ease someone into a new idea or concept instead of throwing them in the deep end.
2) No first time mods. First time mods have enough issues already with stuff, I do not want any first time mod or mod with past issues running newbie games. They have to deal with lots of player flakes already, mod flakes would just make it worse.
3) Players who are ICing should be held to current standards of ICs.

Standard Normal Game Queue

: 'Standard' replaces 'mini' to better illustrate its purpose. The normal whitelist will be vastly expanded to include most non-bastard / non-fringe mafia roles and modifiers. Hydras will still not be allowed. Flavor will be allowed, but moderators will be required to ensure flavor-breaking is impossible (either by randomizing flavor names/alignments, or providing sufficient fakeclaims to the non-town roles). No unique mechanics are allowed.

Why break up Normal and Theme? What if I want to play a game with current whitelist and no flavor like 30% of the current site does? You know the study you need to be doing? Asking normal players why they are choosing normal games and not theme games. If changing the definition of normal makes those who enjoy them no longer want to, why change it? Remove what a noticeable portion of the site wants because they are in the minority? Isnt 30% of players liking something worth leaving it alone when the 70% still have something they want to play? If players who play normal games want an expanded white list and flavor... then its something to talk about. I think those are two things most normal players like though.

[Thestatusquo]

It sure would be nice if the listmods and mods actually listened to suggestions instead of immediately and defensively trying to shoot them down. Everyone but you guys realizes there is a problem with the way normals currently work. If you would stop being defensive and just look for a second you would see it too.

[Psyche]

Eh, there has to be pushback for the conversation to work.

[xRECKONERx]

#1) Normal games have slowed to a crawl, meaning it takes first-time moderators much longer to get through the queue. (For reference, 37 normal games have been run thus far in 2014, but 96 theme games have been run.)

So about 30% of players like playing normal games. Not sure what this is an issue

#2) The sanitized/purist vision of 'normal' has become less and less in line with what the site currently views as a 'standard' game of mafia.

So its not what YOU want. Okay. Again, about 30% of the mini games are normal. Do you have data backing up your claim or are you just throwing out stuff?

How about the fact that 70% of games run are themed and 30% are normals? You literally just quoted the data. Ideally, for a queue not to be sluggish, it should run at the same efficiency as the other queue. That's my claim, anyway, and I don't think it takes away from normal games to add flavor except in extreme cases.

#3) Normal moderators are left with limited creative space (flavor restrictions and limited whitelist) and thus must run otherwise standard normal games in the theme queue.

This is a problem for first time mods only who want to run a theme game before anything else. Not sure what your point here even is. Mods who run normal games after they run a theme obviously like the restrictions as is.

A large portion (about half) of normal games ARE run by first time mods (or mods who have been gone awhile and are just coming back). When your queue is only 30% of the total games played, and only 50% of that 30% are run by first-time mods, it's time to sit back and think, "Hey, maybe someone has a point!"

#4) Newbie games are not indicative of the MafiaScum experience as a whole and do not offer a solid first look at our site culture, meta, and playstyle.

That's probably a good thing to at least get used to the pacing and arguments seen before throwing them in a hyper fast game with caustic players. I 100% believe that we would have a higher player retention rate with how we run newbie games now and if we mixed them heavily with other queues.

Unsure what you mean, did you mean "than" instead of "and"?

Newbie Game Queue

: Scrap the old newbie setup and allow first-time mods to mod a closed 10-13 player setup here. Available roles will be limited and no flavor will be allowed. First-time moderators will have an IC-like co-mod to help them through the process. Each newbie game will have at least 3 experienced players, and at least 6 newbie players. The other 1-4 slots may be filled by either player type. This queue will function similarly to the current mini-normal queue.

I could see a more closed setup newbie/IC/SE queue but:

1) There should be absolutely nothing added to the white list because its an INTRODUCTION to the site. Not a "check out all this crazy stuff" move. Like absolutely anything its best to ease someone into a new idea or concept instead of throwing them in the deep end.
2) No first time mods. First time mods have enough issues already with stuff, I do not want any first time mod or mod with past issues running newbie games. They have to deal with lots of player flakes already, mod flakes would just make it worse.
3) Players who are ICing should be held to current standards of ICs.

1) I am not suggesting anything is added to the whitelist. I'm suggesting the minimal whitelist, aka newbie whitelist, is kept pretty small and restricted. Not once did I suggest expanding the whitelist for newbie games.
2) First time mods have issues with what, exactly? Why do the old guard on this site have an opinion that somehow, playing more games as a player will make you better prepared to moderate? Nothing is to stop a normal game from having newer players, and nothing is forcing newbies to play a newbie game first. At least this way, you have a co-mod (think "IC Mod") holding your hand in case anything goes wrong. I would also not want a mod with past issues running newbie games -- we screen for ICs now, why can't we screen for IC mods? That seems WAY easier to screen for than IC players.
3) Disagree. Players who are veterans shouldn't be looked upon higher for any reason. The IC system has been stupid and broken for a long time, there is no reason we should continue it. Sure, knowing what WIFOM means is helpful, but in general it means we have newbies looking up to a single player as their lighthouse for introduction to this site, and that onus should not be on anyone (not to mention, the types of characters we've put it on are pretty bad). A good mix of old and new without anyone having the responsibility to be the "authority" is the way to go.

Standard Normal Game Queue

: 'Standard' replaces 'mini' to better illustrate its purpose. The normal whitelist will be vastly expanded to include most non-bastard / non-fringe mafia roles and modifiers. Hydras will still not be allowed. Flavor will be allowed, but moderators will be required to ensure flavor-breaking is impossible (either by randomizing flavor names/alignments, or providing sufficient fakeclaims to the non-town roles). No unique mechanics are allowed.

Why break up Normal and Theme? What if I want to play a game with current whitelist and no flavor like 30% of the current site does? You know the study you need to be doing? Asking normal players why they are choosing normal games and not theme games. If changing the definition of normal makes those who enjoy them no longer want to, why change it? Remove what a noticeable portion of the site wants because they are in the minority? Isnt 30% of players liking something worth leaving it alone when the 70% still have something they want to play? If players who play normal games want an expanded white list and flavor... then its something to talk about. I think those are two things most normal players like though.

Your assertion that 30% of the current site would prefer flavorless normals to flavored normals is unfounded.

You have a point, though, in that a study should be done to figure out what is driving these players.

30% of players isn't a valid statistic. The point, I think, is that the normal queue can be lubricated to run much better if we eased up the requirements. And then, if people still wanted their flavorless, strict normal games as they are right now, they would still have an option in playing under the new first time mod queue.

[Psyche]

I still have the infrastructure for Project Poll...

[reinoe]

It sure would be nice if the listmods and mods actually listened to suggestions instead of immediately and defensively trying to shoot them down. Everyone but you guys realizes there is a problem with the way normals currently work. If you would stop being defensive and just look for a second you would see it too.

Does anyone have a problem with me piggybacking on this issue to air my gripes about voyeur and follower not being considered normal? Because I think this thread needs more cowbell.

[zoraster]

voyeur and follower i think are slated to be added soon, but kind of on the backburner. no promises on that.

[chamber]

#1) Normal games have slowed to a crawl, meaning it takes first-time moderators much longer to get through the queue. (For reference, 37 normal games have been run thus far in 2014, but 96 theme games have been run.)

These are misleading numbers. Most of the problems being talked about are in the mini normal queue, yet the biggest disparity in those numbers is between large normal and themes.

#2) The sanitized/purist vision of 'normal' has become less and less in line with what the site currently views as a 'standard' game of mafia.

This can be tested, I'm not sure it's actually true.

#3) Normal moderators are left with limited creative space (flavor restrictions and limited whitelist) and thus must run otherwise standard normal games in the theme queue.

The issue with allowing flavour has always been that some people want flavourless games. I think this is another spot where polls could help determine if there is an actual problem. (I don't think saying 'welp ONLY 30% like to play games in this queue' is actually a fair criticism, it's ok for that to be true.)

#4) Newbie games are not indicative of the MafiaScum experience as a whole and do not offer a solid first look at our site culture, meta, and playstyle.

They aren't, but that's because newbies cause a shitty play experience. They are either going to cause it to each other, or cause it to everyone. The current newbie setup is for everyone else's benefit not for theirs.


In short, I don't think you've addressed the one real problem that exists in any of your goals. (that the normal queue times are slightly too long because that's where we funnel new mods).

[chamber]

'Would you play in a normal game that allowed light flavor in role PMs? *
For example, would it bother you if you had a character name associated with your role PM, as long as the flavor didn't intrude elsewhere?

Yes
No
Maybe '

That question is bullshit, please change it to be more fair.

[shaft.ed]

In regards to having flavor in normals, I understand the issue with flavor claiming, but what if you just have a rule where any "character" included in the game is randomly assigned to any role in the game so that there is zero question as to how the mod designed the flavor to match each role/alignment slot

[xRECKONERx]

Why is it bullshit, holy fuck, give suggestions instead of pissing on it

Pedit: that's exactly what I suggested last time it came up

[Thestatusquo]

The issue with allowing flavour has always been that some people want flavourless games. I think this is another spot where polls could help determine if there is an actual problem. (I don't think saying 'welp ONLY 30% like to play games in this queue' is actually a fair criticism, it's ok for that to be true.)

While I agree with this in principal, it is NOT ok for that to be true if we also happen to use that specific slowest queue for moderators to gain their modding experience.

[chamber]

In regards to having flavor in normals, I understand the issue with flavor claiming, but what if you just have a rule where any "character" included in the game is randomly assigned to any role in the game so that there is zero question as to how the mod designed the flavor to match each role/alignment slot

I would have no problem with that. I'm not sure it's what the people asking for flavour actually want. (I mean my ideal game is a flavoured game with normal mechanics, but I don't want to just give the middle finger to people that like flavourless games)

[chamber]

Why is it bullshit, holy fuck, give suggestions instead of pissing on it

Pedit: that's exactly what I suggested last time it came up

It was worded to get the answer you want. More people like themed/flavoured games so that's going to dominate the poll. Instead stratify it somehow like.

Your ideal game is:
Normal mechanics with no flavour
Normal mechanics with flavour
Complex mechanics with no flavour
Complex mechanics with flavour.

[xRECKONERx]

This proposal would still have flavorless, strict normal games in the form of the new newbie games.

PEDIT: Okay, what if I changed it to:

"Would you be more likely to play in a game with light flavor than you currently would be to play in a normal game?"

[chamber]

More people like themes, people will answer yes to that, my proposed question is better because it actually shows the separation of pro vs anti flavour sentiment among those that prefer normal mechanics.

[Psyche]

Even normals have light flavor. You've gotta be more precise.

(that was @reck)

[xRECKONERx]

More people like themes, people will answer yes to that, my proposed question is better because it actually shows the separation of pro vs anti flavour sentiment among those that prefer normal mechanics.

Okay, I've added your question to the poll.

Even normals have light flavor. You've gotta be more precise.

(that was @reck)

That's why I specifically mention:
For example, would it bother you if you had a character name associated with your role PM, as long as the flavor didn't intrude elsewhere?

[LlamaFluff]

How about the fact that 70% of games run are themed and 30% are normals? You literally just quoted the data. Ideally, for a queue not to be sluggish, it should run at the same efficiency as the other queue. That's my claim, anyway, and I don't think it takes away from normal games to add flavor except in extreme cases.

Is that a bad split? Why do you care that there is a queue that 30% people are happy with as is? Is it going to be required that its a 50-50 split or something? It is efficient but there are just less people who want to play in it so it moves slower.

I don't see why this is an issue. We went through why flavor doesn't belong in normal games before. Again, you should be asking those who WANT to play normal games because if 30% of mini games are normal, there is obviously a demand for them.

A large portion (about half) of normal games ARE run by first time mods (or mods who have been gone awhile and are just coming back). When your queue is only 30% of the total games played, and only 50% of that 30% are run by first-time mods, it's time to sit back and think, "Hey, maybe someone has a point!"

So this is about the mods and not the players? Arent games about the players? I really don't see a problem with a queue that is half new half old mods. Again, the demand for games is there. There are mods who can keep up with the demands. Show me how it is an issue that there is a demand and the demand is met.

That's probably a good thing to at least get used to the pacing and arguments seen before throwing them in a hyper fast game with caustic players. I 100% believe that we would have a higher player retention rate with how we run newbie games now and if we mixed them heavily with other queues.

Unsure what you mean, did you mean "than" instead of "and"?[/quote]

Eyup

1) There should be absolutely nothing added to the white list because its an INTRODUCTION to the site. Not a "check out all this crazy stuff" move. Like absolutely anything its best to ease someone into a new idea or concept instead of throwing them in the deep end.
2) No first time mods. First time mods have enough issues already with stuff, I do not want any first time mod or mod with past issues running newbie games. They have to deal with lots of player flakes already, mod flakes would just make it worse.
3) Players who are ICing should be held to current standards of ICs.

1) I am not suggesting anything is added to the whitelist. I'm suggesting the minimal whitelist, aka newbie whitelist, is kept pretty small and restricted. Not once did I suggest expanding the whitelist for newbie games.
2) First time mods have issues with what, exactly? Why do the old guard on this site have an opinion that somehow, playing more games as a player will make you better prepared to moderate? Nothing is to stop a normal game from having newer players, and nothing is forcing newbies to play a newbie game first. At least this way, you have a co-mod (think "IC Mod") holding your hand in case anything goes wrong. I would also not want a mod with past issues running newbie games -- we screen for ICs now, why can't we screen for IC mods? That seems WAY easier to screen for than IC players.
3) Disagree. Players who are veterans shouldn't be looked upon higher for any reason. The IC system has been stupid and broken for a long time, there is no reason we should continue it. Sure, knowing what WIFOM means is helpful, but in general it means we have newbies looking up to a single player as their lighthouse for introduction to this site, and that onus should not be on anyone (not to mention, the types of characters we've put it on are pretty bad). A good mix of old and new without anyone having the responsibility to be the "authority" is the way to go.[/quote]

1) I know you didn't, that's why I said it would only be a good idea if <Reasons>. The white list should if anything be MORE restricted for "newbie" games.
2) What are you even talking about? I am not arguing that playing games makes you a better mod (although to a certain about it probably does because you get more what to do/not to do examples). What I am saying is that we have enough problems with newbie mods flaking, making basic mistakes, etc. I would rather have for what we are publicly advertising as an introduction to the site be ran by mods that we actually trust from the start.
3) Again, its an introduction. We should have some form of standards for the players who are veterans in newbie games. Players who don't flake, don't have behavioral problems, etc. Do you really think that ICs not flaking, ICs that are not caustic players, wouldn't help keep newbies around more?

You have a point, though, in that a study should be done to figure out what is driving these players.

Not only that but a why do you NOT want to play something else is just as important.

What I am afraid of is some of your proposals seem to force out the normal queue as is, when its clear that while it is not AS popular, it still has enough popularity to make up 30% of games. Why cut that off?

The issue with allowing flavour has always been that some people want flavourless games. I think this is another spot where polls could help determine if there is an actual problem. (I don't think saying 'welp ONLY 30% like to play games in this queue' is actually a fair criticism, it's ok for that to be true.)

While I agree with this in principal, it is NOT ok for that to be true if we also happen to use that specific slowest queue for moderators to gain their modding experience.

So then newbie mods can run open games first. Why punish the people who want to play in a queue because there is more supply than demand? Players who join normal games make the decision to play in a normal game over a theme for various reasons. Its not like we are dealing with a queue that no one joins. It makes up 30% of the mini games who seems significant to me.

"Would you be more likely to play in a game with light flavor than you currently would be to play in a normal game?"

Make it fully unbiased. What chamber has is fine. Doing that survey you absolutely need a "how many of each type of game do you play" too.

[Thestatusquo]

Please explain why it is punishment.

[LlamaFluff]

More people like themes, people will answer yes to that, my proposed question is better because it actually shows the separation of pro vs anti flavour sentiment among those that prefer normal mechanics.

Okay, I've added your question to the poll

If you are posting the poll somewhere instead of sending it manually to everyone who has completed a mini in the last few months its a bad poll to start because not everyone will know it is there and only those who have a strong opinion will likely vote in it.

Please explain why it is punishment.

Because you are taking away the type of game someone wants to play.

[xRECKONERx]

If you are posting the poll somewhere instead of sending it manually to everyone who has completed a mini in the last few months its a bad poll to start because not everyone will know it is there and only those who have a strong opinion will likely vote in it.

I have sent it to the players of the last ten completed mini normals.