New Options For New Mods

[chamber]

I don't want new mods doing micro normals because micro normals are fucking impossible to balance. A first-time mod shouldn't be attempting to design a setup with a constraint of that significance.

How are they impossible to balance?I agree they're harder, and you are definitely limited in the types of roles you include, but a 9 player game isn't close to impossible to balance. Given the amount of debate that happens about balance in mini's, anyway, is this gonna actually make the problem worse? Like, assuming the games are gonna be reviewed - I don't see why that would be an issue.

I mean, maybe I'm wrong here. I'll accept the fact that I don't know for certain / have any data that it's actually more difficult to design a balanced normal 9p game than a balanced normal 13p game.

I would consider trying it out if that's the direction enough people want to go, but I'm still unconvinced.

I feel like 9 vs 13 is likely not that bad, the big issue is anything less than 9. There is also a bigger body of 13's to look at even if they are both inherently about as difficult to balance before considering that.

[GuyInFreezer]

I don't see why the new mods can't mod a micro normal when there was already someone who earned the full game experience by modding a 9p mini normal.

[quadz08]

Can you link me?

[GuyInFreezer]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=36994

[GuyInFreezer]

(And I believe that was his first game modded in this site.)

[Faraday]

I don't want new mods doing micro normals because micro normals are fucking impossible to balance. A first-time mod shouldn't be attempting to design a setup with a constraint of that significance.

How are they impossible to balance?I agree they're harder, and you are definitely limited in the types of roles you include, but a 9 player game isn't close to impossible to balance. Given the amount of debate that happens about balance in mini's, anyway, is this gonna actually make the problem worse? Like, assuming the games are gonna be reviewed - I don't see why that would be an issue.

I mean, maybe I'm wrong here. I'll accept the fact that I don't know for certain / have any data that it's actually more difficult to design a balanced normal 9p game than a balanced normal 13p game.

I would consider trying it out if that's the direction enough people want to go, but I'm still unconvinced.

Well sure, it's more dfficult. I think a lot of that is we're so used to working with 13 - and 12 before it. We have lots of data for lots of normal setups and are used to playng/modding them. And even

with

all that with some of the things that have come out of the NRG - it's pretty clearly an inexact science.

I'm not denying it may be slightly more difficult - I just think you're overestimating the difficulty. (Strictly 9 player, of course, anything less than that *is* a bitch to balance without weird mechanics)

[Natirasha]

I think the difficulty of modding a 9p game balanced is kinda overstated. Plus, presumably, they still have to the NRG, it shouldn't be too bad. Additionally, and this is a bit culture-y I guess, but I don't think people expect Micros to be as balanced as minis/larges as a rule.

[BBmolla]

I disagree with allowing new mods to mod micros. Currently the Micro Queue has a nice short wait, your proposal would make it annoyingly slow.

People don't like normals, all you're doing is infecting a different queue with their lameness.

ONLY Normal Micros. It's basically what they're doing with normal queue currently - 4.

If you just add Micro Normals to what is going on with the current queue, it shouldn't slow things down. If Normals are as lame as you say they are, it won't attract that many people and won't make it "annoyingly" slow.

The problem is that it would attract mods, because of the requirement, but not players, because of the lameness.

I argue it'd attract more players than the current mini normal queue and we could try it for a month and check numbers at the end, if it's not working go back to way things were.

[Who]

I disagree with allowing new mods to mod micros. Currently the Micro Queue has a nice short wait, your proposal would make it annoyingly slow.

People don't like normals, all you're doing is infecting a different queue with their lameness.

ONLY Normal Micros. It's basically what they're doing with normal queue currently - 4.

If you just add Micro Normals to what is going on with the current queue, it shouldn't slow things down. If Normals are as lame as you say they are, it won't attract that many people and won't make it "annoyingly" slow.

The problem is that it would attract mods, because of the requirement, but not players, because of the lameness.

I argue it'd attract more players than the current mini normal queue and we could try it for a month and check numbers at the end, if it's not working go back to way things were.

Why would it attract more players than the current mini normal queue?

If someone doesn't want to play in a normal they're not going to play in a normal regardless of whether it's in the micro queue or the normal queue.

[TierShift]

I'd play micro normals, for one.
I don't really like mini normals.

[Who]

I'd play micro normals, for one.
I don't really like mini normals.

Then play a 9p mini normal in the normal queue.

If someone wants to mod a 9p normal they can already do so in the normal queue. Why do we need to infect the other queues with them?

[BBmolla]

I disagree with allowing new mods to mod micros. Currently the Micro Queue has a nice short wait, your proposal would make it annoyingly slow.

People don't like normals, all you're doing is infecting a different queue with their lameness.

ONLY Normal Micros. It's basically what they're doing with normal queue currently - 4.

If you just add Micro Normals to what is going on with the current queue, it shouldn't slow things down. If Normals are as lame as you say they are, it won't attract that many people and won't make it "annoyingly" slow.

The problem is that it would attract mods, because of the requirement, but not players, because of the lameness.

I argue it'd attract more players than the current mini normal queue and we could try it for a month and check numbers at the end, if it's not working go back to way things were.

Why would it attract more players than the current mini normal queue?

If someone doesn't want to play in a normal they're not going to play in a normal regardless of whether it's in the micro queue or the normal queue.

I don't want to play a mini normal cause it's a long ass time commitment for what is probably going to be a badly modded game. At least in this case I'm signing up for a game that is not such a commitment.

Basically, I'd actually sign up for micro normals where I have no intention of doing mini normals.

I can make a survey and get opinions from others if you'd like.

[BBmolla]

I'd play micro normals, for one.
I don't really like mini normals.

Then play a 9p mini normal in the normal queue.

If someone wants to mod a 9p normal they can already do so in the normal queue. Why do we need to infect the other queues with them?

Cause atm I'd just ask someone to mod a normal in the micro queue cause the game would start 2-3 weeks sooner.

[TierShift]

I'd play micro normals, for one.
I don't really like mini normals.

Then play a 9p mini normal in the normal queue.

If someone wants to mod a 9p normal they can already do so in the normal queue. Why do we need to infect the other queues with them?

They are being run there?

[Who]

I'd play micro normals, for one.
I don't really like mini normals.

Then play a 9p mini normal in the normal queue.

If someone wants to mod a 9p normal they can already do so in the normal queue. Why do we need to infect the other queues with them?

They are being run there?

I don't think they are.

But if people show that they would prefer 9p to more, more mods would run 9p normals for their first game (Less players have to sign up+according to you, more would sign up).

Unless, of course, there's another reason preventing them from doing so.

[BBmolla]

Oh

And if it means anything, I got my modding experience by modding Scumhunter's 8P. Then I ran a mini theme.

[FakeGod]

My first modded game was 7p Double Cop!

[fferyllt]

nominate the borkgame micro for the balanced micro normal list.

[BBmolla]

bump

i want this to actually happen, not die

[Cheery Dog]

If the corpus spans the design space, it is functionally a closed setup.

It would still be a semi-open.

I guess you can look at the the attempted setups that were on offer the last time we changed the game in the newbie queue.

[Shadowmod]

I cannot see why a micor game would be any harder to balance than a mini.

What I can see though, is the impression that I get whenever I skim the Open Setup suggestions thread. People do not only want a setup to be balanced, but:

- it also needs to be new, creative and not boring (which only gets harder with normalcy reuqirements and small player base)
- it should not be swingy (which is hard when using simple, normal, power roles, because in a game small enough, success often depends on the performance of one single, strong power role (like vig, cop, watcher...)

So as a result, when I once was looking for some simple, small open setps that revolved more around "softer" power roles, such as tracker, I could not even really find much of interest.
I think we need a solid stock of "boring" setups, because frankly, for a player or a mod wanting to pick up a stock setup and just run a play of mafia or neat novelty mechanics (but also the 10th little tweak on Cop-Doc) are probably things they are not really looking for.

On the plus side, I think Open mods can now pick up basically any setup they like, without the need for any official or community approval, so the issue isn't so severe any more.

[BBmolla]

As like the top poster in Open Suggestions, I know that when I make a setup it's to try to create a game which uses something unique, but there is nothing stopping you from making a setup that is like "2 Mafia Goons vs. 1 Town Tracker." Just no one is going to suggest it cause it doesn't really do anything interesting or innovative.

Edit: Also, balancing off of one PR tends to be bad balance because then the setup is totally balanced off something that could just get nightkilled the first night and literally have no effect on the game.

[BBmolla]

Who do I actually direct this thread to in order to get it implemented

[BBmolla]

Like I'm sorry it's not as controvercial but I don't want it to die because of it, I think it's a good solution

[quadz08]

Hi I'm here and have posted here and am following this thread.

I'm still not convinced this is a good idea, tbh