Matrix6 and the Newbie Queue

[BBmolla]

I suspect most players in newbie games are new to MS not to mafia.

Disagreeish.

[Toomai]

Basically, I want to be scientific about this. Does anyone have any evidence, even

anecdotal

evidence, that people aren't grasping the set-up? Because I'm just afraid we're going to fix something that isn't broken. The only data points I have so far are positive anecdotes from newer players.

I skim every newbie game for the stats. I don't read every post, but I do feel like I get a pretty good grasp of the game.

Most games, I don't recall anyone saying they don't get the setup. Maybe a post or two near the beginning asking for clarification, which an SE or IC provides. Oftentimes, when a claim occurs, the SEs/IC spells out what it means for the setup, and everyone seems to at least get it enough to question it. There have been some blunders, but they seem few and far between (probably less than 10, and certainly less than 20, in 170+ games), and the blunderer always seems to slap their forehead afterwards.

Now I don't tend to read postgames, so I might be missing anything that goes on there, but from my perspective the setup is not an issue.

[chamber]

Basically, I want to be scientific about this. Does anyone have any evidence, even

anecdotal

evidence, that people aren't grasping the set-up? Because I'm just afraid we're going to fix something that isn't broken. The only data points I have so far are positive anecdotes from newer players.

I skim every newbie game for the stats. I don't read every post, but I do feel like I get a pretty good grasp of the game.

Most games, I don't recall anyone saying they don't get the setup. Maybe a post or two near the beginning asking for clarification, which an SE or IC provides. Oftentimes, when a claim occurs, the SEs/IC spells out what it means for the setup, and everyone seems to at least get it enough to question it. There have been some blunders, but they seem few and far between (probably less than 10, and certainly less than 20, in 170+ games), and the blunderer always seems to slap their forehead afterwards.

Now I don't tend to read postgames, so I might be missing anything that goes on there, but from my perspective the setup is not an issue.

Newbies not understanding without SE's/IC's walking them through it can still be an issue. We want them to be engaged and thinking for themselves as much as possible. Not to say the SE's/IC's input is absolutely needed on the matter, but if they are always providing it we can't know.

[BBmolla]

Basically, I want to be scientific about this. Does anyone have any evidence, even

anecdotal

evidence, that people aren't grasping the set-up? Because I'm just afraid we're going to fix something that isn't broken. The only data points I have so far are positive anecdotes from newer players.

I skim every newbie game for the stats. I don't read every post, but I do feel like I get a pretty good grasp of the game.

Most games, I don't recall anyone saying they don't get the setup. Maybe a post or two near the beginning asking for clarification, which an SE or IC provides. Oftentimes, when a claim occurs, the SEs/IC spells out what it means for the setup, and everyone seems to at least get it enough to question it. There have been some blunders, but they seem few and far between (probably less than 10, and certainly less than 20, in 170+ games), and the blunderer always seems to slap their forehead afterwards.

Now I don't tend to read postgames, so I might be missing anything that goes on there, but from my perspective the setup is not an issue.

This is kind of a shallow way to look at it

I can understand the Doctor and Bulletproof as roles, but I may not understand the implication that I should probably claim Doctor at certain points

I also would have no fucking clue what to claim as new scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

There's only some incentive to fake-claim doctor if the tracker's alive and claimed (and even then, he might be lying). (If there's no tracker claim, you risk getting indirectly counterclaimed and if the tracker's dead, scum should shoot or counterclaim you anyway.) It's not really an issue.

I also would have no fucking clue what to claim as new scum.

Claiming Doctor or 1-shot Bulletproof townie seem like the most obvious options and neither of them is a particularly bad fake claim (Doctor is a little better, admittedly).

[BBmolla]

That aside, I still dislike the entire Doctor/Tracker situation.

[Shadowmod]

Haven't really read most of this thread, but just to address the issues raised in the OP:

Newbies can drag out more than necessary, which can easily make it a bad experience for players, which is bad. Why does a Newbie have deadlines that would also be fitting for a thme game? Newbies are

not

there to be a typical MS.net game, per se, but they are meant as a bridge to easy people (who most likely have other, generally quicker paced, mafia experience elsewhere - I doubt many people land here because they googled mafia out of interest for actual Italian organized crime syndicates) over to this site. So why not just use a one week compromise deadline for that.

As for the setup - when I joined this site, I hated the newbie setup (still F11 back then), found it boring. I'd have been much more hooked by something as Matrix6 with its many intricate complexities - I enjoyed my second game, a rolemadness mini, a lot more ; but I am probably an outlier in that regard, so do not listen to me.
Having to understand one "screwy" (i.e. arbitrary) interaction should not really overstrain any one, though.
Maybe having two Newbies with two different setups in the queue, similar to how the other queues do it already, would be a solution... Or just more complexity for newbies... But I am actually not sure if we aren't just discussing how much things should get dumbed down and whom for we'd do that, my instincitve reaction to this kind of discussion is to assume a feeling of insulted intellect on the part of a newbie when faced with an overly basic setup because the established people on this site would not dare put more past them, but then I am usually wrong about these kind of assumptions as well...

I don't really see the problem with the 1-game restriction on first newbies - it does not prevent any one from signing up for other game types as well, with the possible exception that a mod might not accept players without site experience, but that, as far as I know, is not a general problem.

The slow newbie queue - and the long time span from sigining up to any first game here on site, be it a newbie or not, is major problem in retaining interested site visitors, especially when seen in the context of social media and smartphones. So here is where some easily available short-term solution like a chat mafia (--> the other thread...) would come in handy.

[Aeronaut]

Thank you so much, Mew! <3

I'm tempted to do something similar on my home site, but I suspect I'll get a resounding response of "you call THAT complicated?" Their games tend to throw newbies to the wolves much more than mafiascum does--there are no just-for-newbies games, each game has a long list of possible roles, everyone plays under alts, and you're not even ALLOWED to reveal that you're a newbie.

chamber, you're probably right that most people come to mafiascum after playing on other sites, but I feel like newbie games are there to help those who are Mafia virgins or close to it (those with significant off-site experience can always jump into another queue).

Well, MafiaScum is the first real Mafia site besides EM that comes up on Google. So I feel like a lot of the people really don't know how to play that well.


What if you just have one less newbie and one more SE per game? That way, you help reduce the problem of lack of newbies, aaaand you get one more person who sort of knows what's actually going on to keep the game moving, and to help there be less of those long stretches of nothing that happens in most newbie games.


I know that in my first newbie game, we were missing two or three people really, so it was quiet and boring most of the time. Half because our IC was lurking right along with them, but basically the point is that Newbs tend to get bored during those long streches. Only when someone claimed Cop and we had to try to guess how it was going to work in Matrix6 did the game really get intense.

Just some thoughts

[Master Mew]

I showed them the wiki page for Matrix6 and asked them these questions:

1. Do you feel like you understand this setup well?

2. As your first game on Mafia Scum, would you feel comfortable playing this setup?

3. Do you feel like this setup is well-suited for new players?

Thank you so much, Mew! <3

Alright I have some responses in, I'll PM them to you but figured I'd post them here too - because sharing is caring.



In response to the three questions listed above,

after reviewing the wiki page for Matrix6

,

individuals who have played forum mafia on other sites but never on Mafia Scum

responded:

Spoiler: Survey Responses

1. I do
2. I probably would, column C and row 3 strike me as a tad unbalanced, maybe
3. Yes, not too many complex roles and especially role interactions

1) yes, but honestly the matrix is unnecessary (it makes it more complicated than it really is)
2) considering I have previous mafia experience, I wouldn't be uncomfortable, but the bias towards town or mafia for some of the setups is meh
3) probably not, i think they'd find it hard to understand (if they were new to mafia period) and the flawed win rates for some of the setups could be discouraging to some players

1. As a mafia veteran from another website, I understand the setup. However, it took me some time to understand it. I had to read it a few times. If I were playing this setup on mafia scum, I would constantly need to refer back to the wiki page though because I would have a difficult time remembering which role belongs in which row, etc.

2. I think I would feel less confident in this set up than the 2 of 4 because the 2 of 4 is easier to understand. I think the matrix 6 setup is more confusing. If I hadn’t played mafia elsewhere, I would definitely have a more difficult time understanding the roles.

3. No. The 2 of 4 is simpler. I think a new player would need lots of time and patience to navigate the matrix 6 set up. 2 of 4 is easier and faster to learn.

1. Yes, it's simple and easy to understand.
2. I would.
3. Definitely, it's size should help new players feel at ease taking more time to understand the game.

1. It took a few times but I think I understand the essentials
2. Maybe. But would probably be checking the wiki page several times trhoughout the game
3. I am not sure. I think it might be a little bit too confusing.

Spoiler: Additional, Unprompted Feedback

Respondent C:

i honestly dont understand how to sign up for games

Respondent B:

tell them you asked a friend who has never seen mafiascum, that their layout looks fucking juvenile

Friend:

lmfao

Friend:

matt please be sure to use the words 'fucking juvenile'

Friend:

and note that it was unprompted, no one asked [Respondent B] about he interface at all lmfao

After further dicussion it also became clear that, even though they'd all read the wiki page, nobody really got the Roleblocker vs Jailkeeper resolution (which suggests it may be unintuitive) and the Bulletproof claiming as Doctor scenario was bewildering.

[reinoe]

Thanks Master Mew. Even though that's a small sample size, I found it interesting...


"fucking juvenile". I have no idea how to snazz it up though. On person's "just fine" is another person's eyesore.

[Master Mew]

I found it amusing, since I didn't even ask.

Also, proper Jailkeeper play was another thing that came up that stumped everyone. Not sure how significant that is.

[Mina]

Thanks for those! Very, very mixed responses (starting to wonder if the sheer number of roles might be a

draw

of the setup for some people). But the comment about the site design was funny given the talk in the other thread.

I'm wondering if the solution is to make a 2x3 matrix instead, or just remove the scenarios with the most lopsided win rate. But I don't want to start the PT yet until I get some more survey results.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

After further dicussion it also became clear that, even though they'd all read the wiki page, nobody really got the Roleblocker vs Jailkeeper resolution (which suggests it may be unintuitive) and the Bulletproof claiming as Doctor scenario was bewildering.

I don't think Newbies need to know those things anyway. They're edge cases.

When you say 2x3, Mina, do you mean a set-up where you pick one of two rows or one of three columns? I don't see how you can make that work without giving the rows inherently more town power.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Oh, I get why the survey responses were complaining about balance now - the wiki page has some outdated statistics on how each of the individual set-ups has fared (with a 65% win rate for one and 33.3% for another); the more recent win rates are all more reasonable, so I'll edit that.

If we're still worried about the two 40% win rate scenarios, I'd go back to my earlier suggestion of replacing the 1-shot bulletproof with a town back-up.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I guess you could design a 2x3 matrix in this format:

Town Cop	Mafia Anti-Cop role	Town PR
Mafia Anti-Jailkeeper role	Town Jailkeeper	Town PR

The idea is that you weaken the rows relative to the columns by including mafia PRs that only do something meaningful in the rows but I'm not sure that's the type of design we want in a Newbie, nor do I think there are even good mafia PRs that would work (Godfather and 1-shot Strongman are the only ones I can even think off the top of my head).

[N]

Making the setup simpler/boring will make it harder to find ICs and SEs. And mods too, probably.

[Bicephalous Bob]

I really think it's a good idea to make the IC confirmed town with the chance of having a protective role. I don't see how you can teach newbies what you think is scummy if you have to push town at the same time, unless you're a shitty scumhunter, in which case you shouldn't be teaching newbies anyway.

I already said this in the let's-revolutionize-mafiascum thread, but adding direct links to the signup threads in the corresponding forum descriptions would help a great deal. Also, the guide to signing up on the main page can be replaced with a link to the sign-up thread saying "respond with '/in' to this thread to sign up for your first game".

[N]

I really think it's a good idea to make the IC confirmed town with the chance of having a protective role. I don't see how you can teach newbies what you think is scummy if you have to push town at the same time, unless you're a shitty scumhunter, in which case you shouldn't be teaching newbies anyway.

That sounds really boring.

[Bicephalous Bob]

It doesn't have to be

[Shadowmod]

After further dicussion it also became clear that, even though they'd all read the wiki page, nobody really got the Roleblocker vs Jailkeeper resolution (which suggests it may be unintuitive) and the Bulletproof claiming as Doctor scenario was bewildering.

I don't think Newbies need to know those things anyway. They're edge cases.

When you say 2x3, Mina, do you mean a set-up where you pick one of two rows or one of three columns? I don't see how you can make that work without giving the rows inherently more town power.

In the simple doc/cop scenarios of old days every one probably had a pretty clear grip on what to do immediately - with the result of a one-dimensional, stereotypical gameplay. In Matrix6, you certtainly can get by pretty well without understanding all the intricancies, but at least their is room for more interesting, smart and creative plays, if one likes that sort of thing. Suboptimal and even outright stupid or trollish claims have always happened and will always keep happening, no matter the setup.

Maybe chaging the Matrix representation (mostly neat, but impractical for the purpose) back to a simple list of setups will make it easier to grasp the concept.

[Shadowmod]

I really think it's a good idea to make the IC confirmed town with the chance of having a protective role. I don't see how you can teach newbies what you think is scummy if you have to push town at the same time, unless you're a shitty scumhunter, in which case you shouldn't be teaching newbies anyway.

I already said this in the let's-revolutionize-mafiascum thread, but adding direct links to the signup threads in the corresponding forum descriptions would help a great deal. Also, the guide to signing up on the main page can be replaced with a link to the sign-up thread saying "respond with '/in' to this thread to sign up for your first game".

You'd also need a high chance of the IC to be BP or having a doc/jk in the setup, or mafia will just do what they like to do anyway: Snipe the IC in N1.
And even then, you basically turn the game into a follow the IC, which is boring, and not how mafia should be played. And innocent child is a pretty dulll role in general, for all the same reasons...

[Mina]

When you say 2x3, Mina, do you mean a set-up where you pick one of two rows or one of three columns? I don't see how you can make that work without giving the rows inherently more town power.

Oh, I had a brain fart. I was thinking about Quilford's "pick a role from every column and row" matrix (although we'd have to remove the "one from each row" part), but of course that doesn't work for the current matrix. Unless the missing squares are VTs, except the current matrix already has VTs in it. (Mind you, that could help presentation, but changing the setups to conform to an arbitrary standard like "VTs in all the columns" is bad.)

My other idea is just removing the ones with 40% and 60% win rates and leaving four options in a list (but I haven't thought through the ramifications of being able to better narrow down the setup from one flip at all). Matrix 6 does do balance well.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Relatively simple set-up idea:

One of {Jailkeeper, Cop}
One of {VT+Goon, Town Back-up, Mafia Role Cop}

Downside is that all 4 set-ups are a bit samey and Town Back-up is still not the greatest role but it's certainly simpler than Matrix6 and definitely no scum-sided set-ups.

[Bicephalous Bob]

I really think it's a good idea to make the IC confirmed town with the chance of having a protective role. I don't see how you can teach newbies what you think is scummy if you have to push town at the same time, unless you're a shitty scumhunter, in which case you shouldn't be teaching newbies anyway.

I already said this in the let's-revolutionize-mafiascum thread, but adding direct links to the signup threads in the corresponding forum descriptions would help a great deal. Also, the guide to signing up on the main page can be replaced with a link to the sign-up thread saying "respond with '/in' to this thread to sign up for your first game".

You'd also need a high chance of the IC to be BP or having a doc/jk in the setup, or mafia will just do what they like to do anyway: Snipe the IC in N1.
And even then, you basically turn the game into a follow the IC, which is boring, and not how mafia should be played. And innocent child is a pretty dulll role in general, for all the same reasons...

Not with a mafia doc and a town doc who cancel each other out if targeting the same player it isn't.

[Bicephalous Bob]

What is the main goal of newbies? If it's to introduce players to the mechanics and the most common roles, then Matrix6 is absolutely fine and the relative complexity is a necessary evil. If it's to provide a simple playground where newbies can learn to scumhunt, it isn't that suitable.