When I Get Bored Sometimes I Investigate Myself

[quadz08]

Godfathers / millers / ninjas and the like aren't bastard because of historical precedent. I think if someone were to invent those roles today, they would absolutely be bastard - but godfather and miller, at least, are two of the oldest roles in Mafia. This isn't a reason all by itself, and I am personally not a big fan of godfathers and millers - but I think making them bastard roles is an error.

Also, they're currently considered Normal, so to call them bastard is an awfully big leap.

[zMuffinMan]

If your definition of bastard excuses things that can be reasonably expected, then I suppose they're not bastard.

[quadz08]

That is literally the whole definition of bastard

[quadz08]

ok not the whole definition of bastard, but any defintiion of bastard that doesn't include that caveat is a bad one, IMO

[zMuffinMan]

That is

my

definition of bastard

Ignoring how arbitrary it actually is (for example, where is the line for what can be reasonably expected and what can't and who decided that?), your definition isn't "the" definition.

[quadz08]

Well no, it's not. It's obviously a fuzzy line, not something that everyone will agree on.

That said, I do think that any definition of bastard that doesn't include a 'reasonable expectation' clause is missing something important. *shrug* Others may disagree, of course.

[Zachrulez]

Godfathers / millers / ninjas and the like aren't bastard because of historical precedent. I think if someone were to invent those roles today, they would absolutely be bastard - but godfather and miller, at least, are two of the oldest roles in Mafia. This isn't a reason all by itself, and I am personally not a big fan of godfathers and millers - but I think making them bastard roles is an error.

Also, they're currently considered Normal, so to call them bastard is an awfully big leap.

Those kind of roles can be bastard. It all depends on how you word the a role pm. If you lead a cop to believe they are sane and their results will be 100% accurate, then using roles that mess with their results is bastard. If you word it differently, saying they're guaranteed sane unless elements in the game mess with the result, then you're telling the player that they can't rely on their results 100%. How you word your role pms is everything.

I wasn't around for the introduction of roles like Godfather/Miller/ect but I imagine they were introduced without any warning to the player and as such would imagine that the possibilities weren't covered in the role pms, and in fact that was probably intended and as such would be bastard introductions for the roles.

[zMuffinMan]

I do think that any definition of bastard that doesn't include a 'reasonable expectation' clause is missing something important.

Why? Accepting bad things because it's the status quo seems sillier to me.

So I'm just going to write a long-winded analogy here. Bear with me.

So let's say there's this restaurant that serves the best tasting food in your local area. The only catch is they throw your food on the floor and put it back on the plate before serving you. I mean, the human immune system is rather convenient, so nine times out of ten it's not going to affect you, but every once in a while you feel really sick after eating there as a result. But the food is so damn good. So damn good. And you're a glutton for punishment so you keep going back there. One day you ask the restaurant manager why they have to throw your food on the floor before serving it to you. He tells you it's always been like that and it would be ridiculous not to do it. You tell him it's not healthy and he should stop doing it. He shrugs and tells you it's what you should expect when you eat here. But, you argue, it doesn't

need

to happen. He tells you that if it wasn't something they always did, he'd agree with you. But it's always happened, so it needs to continue happening.

That's what you're doing. You're throwing my food on the floor and telling me to like it because it's always been like that. Why can't you just stop throwing the food on the floor? It doesn't need to happen. If anything, the taste of the food will improve if you stop doing it.

Please stop throwing my food on the floor.

[Zachrulez]

I would argue roles like Miller/Godfather are bastard when introduced in a vacuum but establishing their existence allowed them to be used in a non bastard way.

[Majiffy]

So I'm just going to write a long-winded analogy here. Bear with me.

That's either a really disingenuous analogy or you have no grasp on the conversation being had.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't care about your conversation with bob. You're wrong, anyway, unless results are worded in a specific way so as to avoid directly lying.

[Majiffy]

So "innocent" and "guilty"?

[Majiffy]

Cuz if that's your argument, well, good luck proving to anyone you've got a plot of land to stand on.

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, the point I was making is that would be the only way to not directly lie to the player.

Out of interest, do you think a cop of unknown sanity is bastard (if they don't know this)? Do you think percentage-based results are bastard?

[Majiffy]

Yeah, the point I was making is that would be the only way to not directly lie to the player.

Well good job, you've successfully shot holes in your own argument by doing so.

Out of interest, do you think a cop of unknown sanity is bastard (if they don't know this)? Do you think percentage-based results are bastard?

A cop of unknown sanity is bastard. That being said, I have no problem with bastard and I don't think it's a bad thing. The only time bastard is bad is when the players aren't made aware that the game has bastard elements.

I don't think percentage-based results are bastard if the players are aware that results are percentage-based.

[zMuffinMan]

A cop of unknown sanity is bastard. That being said, I have no problem with bastard and I don't think it's a bad thing. The only time bastard is bad is when the players aren't made aware that the game has bastard elements.

I don't think percentage-based results are bastard if the players are aware that results are percentage-based.

You aren't lying to the players if the role is specifically purposed to evade or thwart the accuracy of investigations. Ergo, not bastard.

If I were to implement a role that fucked with a cop's sanity without their knowledge, where the specific purpose of the role was to thwart the accuracy of investigations, would this be bastard?

If I were to implement a role that made a cop's results percentage-based without their knowledge, where the specific purpose of the role was to thwart the accuracy of investigations, would this be bastard?

[Majiffy]

If I were to implement a role that fucked with a cop's sanity without their knowledge, where the specific purpose of the role was to thwart the accuracy of investigations, would this be bastard?

No, because that's another role, not the cop.

If a player were to lynch another player and they flipped town, one could reasonably assume a framer if they didn't flip miller.

If I were to implement a role that made a cop's results percentage-based without their knowledge, where the specific purpose of the role was to thwart the accuracy of investigations, would this be bastard?

Potentially, because one wouldn't reasonably assume "percentage-based role fuckery".

I would expect the argument about bastardization to appear much more commonly in the latter than the former example.

[Cheery Dog]

Anything percentage-based is bastard.

The fact that framer got taken out of the normal guidelines means there was progress at some point for the miller/godfather haters.

[Majiffy]

Is it still considered progress if it's a regression?

[callforjudgement]

The fact that framer got taken out of the normal guidelines means there was progress at some point for the miller/godfather haters.

IMO, the important thing with roles like framer/miller/godfather is that you know whether they're potentially going to be in a setup or not. A framer or tailor or miller or godfather is bastard if you're not aware of the fact that the possibility might exist. The normal guidelines are pretty good in this respect at the moment, specifically whitelisting or blacklisting the roles.

(That said, I feel like Tailor and Framer are much better roles in open setups, where the players

know

they exist and can strategise round them.)

[Bicephalous Bob]

"No, because that's another role, not the cop."

So not telling an naive cop he's naive is bastard, but having an all-godfather scum team isn't?

I agree with you about bastard games not being bad if properly announced

[Majiffy]

Who said anything about an all-godfather team?

[Psyche]

i think bicephalous bob did

[Junpei]

Unless a role specifically says it can self-target, it can't.

(Also, unknown-sanity Cop is normally more interesting if it can't self-target and you don't have Innocent Children or the like in the setup.)

I disagree. It can self target unless the role pm explicitly says it can't. In a mafia game in 2015 it really shouldn't be that hard as a mod to consider that a player may actually think about the scenario of self targeting and to cover that in a role pm.

actions which are 100% no question asked fundamentally against your win condition (town vigilante shooting himself) should be against the rules.