The IC and SE System

[quadz08]

I agree with prozac

[Ranmaru]

I thought the point of the SEs wasn't so that they can give extra advice to newbies, but so that they don't steal slots from newbies.

There's a huge demand for "newish player playing their fourth game in the newbie queue". The reason you can't play your third game there was at least partly an attempt to reduce that demand, IIRC, but even so, there's a potential risk of the SEs crowding the newbies out. Maybe it isn't as bad as it was.

In turn, this means that SEs can't particularly be expected to act like anything but newbies, nor to have particular insights about the game.

If we had Backup IC's, maybe we could keep newbies as newbies for longer, rather than cutting them off as a newbie after two games. What if a newbie is not comfortable being a non-newbie after their second game? What is the argument (for and against) on keeping a newbie as a newbie for more than 2 games?

[popsofctown]

In the current system, the player plays his third game as SE, and it doesn't matter if he's comfortable because an SE is not

supposed

to have any responsibilities.

SE should have never been given a name, it should have just always been "let the mod know how many games you've played so she can subjectively make sure enough 0 games played players are cycling through queue".

[Vampirate]

Imo, just have the prefix for NP (New Player) and leave it at that. I don't think SE really does anything.

[Ranmaru]

Yet that's why SE's won't be acting as backup IC's, because they are not IC's. It is awkward for SE's to try to over-step IC's with theory. So you have to equal the playing field there, while also doing something about how newbies can be classified as newbies.

[Zachrulez]

I thought the point of the SEs wasn't so that they can give extra advice to newbies, but so that they don't steal slots from newbies.

There's a huge demand for "newish player playing their fourth game in the newbie queue". The reason you can't play your third game there was at least partly an attempt to reduce that demand, IIRC, but even so, there's a potential risk of the SEs crowding the newbies out. Maybe it isn't as bad as it was.

In turn, this means that SEs can't particularly be expected to act like anything but newbies, nor to have particular insights about the game.

If we had Backup IC's, maybe we could keep newbies as newbies for longer, rather than cutting them off as a newbie after two games. What if a newbie is not comfortable being a non-newbie after their second game? What is the argument (for and against) on keeping a newbie as a newbie for more than 2 games?

After two games, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.

[Psyche]

It is awkward for SE's to try to over-step IC's with theory.

hahaha
yeah it is

[Runner]

The other thing I could think of is to have a separate person who watches the games, doesn't play, has their own quicktopic the mod gives them and takes notes in the topic. After the mod reveals the quicktopic and the players can find out information from an outside source for any feedback.

While this is usually the IC's job, considering most IC play in multiple games as well, might not have the time for whatever reasons or just might not know what to say in post game I think it might be appropriate-

Admittedly I would not really know how to implement that though.

25 - Espeonage suggested something similar if you want to hop back and see the criticisms there. I'm in favour of it and I think that, in combination with the suggestion of a more holistic mix of newbies and experienced players in each newbie would be good changes to the newbie games.

[SleepyKrew]

After two games, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.

After one game, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.
After ten games, you're not experienced enough to teach a group of newbies, whether or not you want to accept that fact.
Saying random bullshit is fun

[Zachrulez]

After two games, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.

After one game, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.
After ten games, you're not experienced enough to teach a group of newbies, whether or not you want to accept that fact.
Saying random bullshit is fun

Hey now, I did just fine as an IC after 5 games.

[Mina]

I'm opposed to having special deadlines ONLY in the newbie queue--I agree with Prozac and quadz that newbie games should be an introduction to the site, and we shouldn't presume short-deadlines are a newbies-only thing. However, I started this thread.

(I'm tempted by the "no SEs, just reserved spots for true newbies" idea, except it's functionally just a rename. It does streamline some of the more convoluted rules, though. I would be in favour of returning to two ICs per game if there were enough ICs to keep up with the influx of newbies.)

The PT idea for ICs is good, except I feel like that's more something that an IC COULD do rather than mandatory, like writing critiques of each person's play. I really think much of an IC's job is showing people the conventions of Mafia by

doing

, not just dumping theory on them (there's already a wiki fo that), and games need experienced players to drive them. However, I had a thought that there could also be designated spectators who read newbie games and then post their thoughts in PTs--like any graveyard, but it's their job, almost like the NRG. I personally would not enjoy a job like that, but maybe the people who volunteer to judge the Scummies or read games they're not in would like it.

(Private coaches for every player just aren't feasible, but someone shoot me for seriously considering one IC treestump who can't vote and dies after D2 or D3 and one behind-the-scenes Mafia treestump who only posts in the scum PT but can't send in actions. This seems simultaneously great and awful.)

(My problem is I tend to go around in circles between all the options. )

[SilverWolf]

Last game I IC'd in, the dead thread had no posts so I used it to put some advice, game play feedback, etc. and got positive comments from some of the newbie's post game saying they found it very useful.

But that all depends on the IC dying early enough to do that which is often the case but not always.

[Porochaz]

In the current system, the player plays his third game as SE, and it doesn't matter if he's comfortable because an SE is not

supposed

to have any responsibilities.

SE should have never been given a name, it should have just always been "let the mod know how many games you've played so she can subjectively make sure enough 0 games played players are cycling through queue".

^ I think you have managed to nail down why I have always hated the SE moniker, thanks!

[Porochaz]

After two games, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.

After one game, you're not a newbie anymore whether or not you want to accept that fact.
After ten games, you're not experienced enough to teach a group of newbies, whether or not you want to accept that fact.
Saying random bullshit is fun

Hey now, I did just fine as an IC after 5 games.

Maybe, but a lot of players wouldn't say the same, and would still consider themselves newbies. If you haven't build up that confidence level, being told you can't be a newbie anymore is a bit shit.

[Porochaz]

Triple Post! I wouldn't call it a renaming, I'd call it a rebranding. What the SE's were meant to be and what they are is two different things, and I think thats partially down to the name. (also back in the day they were implemented there was arguments over how much they should take over from the IC's, and I can't remember how that rectified itself/how it is now)

And now I'm in that awkward position where I want to expand out of my brackets...

It used to be 2 IC's 5 newbies with laxer conditions set for what a newbie was. When SE's came in, they replaced an IC slot, which, in my view fucked things up a bit. The SE's were viewed as players who could back up an IC. When in reality, what they were was just inexperienced players wanting more experience. The number of players went up, but the ICing never changed. I think thats an issue, there needs to be another IC in the games, if we are going to clarify the SE's role. It's important that there is no confusion to the SE's that their role is not a teaching one.

So back to my original point, the name SE was awful and caused confusion. A name change to clarify and maybe a tweaking of how the roles are explained is what is needed.

[Ranmaru]

I think there needs to be two IC's devoted to giving advice. Otherwise I'd feel the game would devolve to regular players playing their standard game while picking off newbies who have no idea how to play correctly. (Yet we can't determine their alignment correctly because they may be fumbling or just being newbie scum abusing being a newbie).

I agree to make it known that SE is not a back up IC role. If people want Backup IC's, then make a separate label for backup IC's. Of course a backup IC would have to have been an IC before or someone who is qualified to be an IC. (Yet I feel they need to know that before joining so they are ready for that)

[Zachrulez]

Did we go away from 2 IC setup because we wanted to or because 2 IC was unsustainable due to the lack of people actually ICing?

[Mina]

The second one, completely. I would go back to two ICs if it seemed even slightly feasible.

[fferyllt]

Were games seeing tangible benefits from 2 ICs?

[Mina]

Bumping this to advertise that ICs may now request a confessional PT from me where they can post private thoughts (anything from their motivations behind a certain gambit to reads that might undermine their goals if revealed publicly to ranting off the top of their head) that will be made public after the game ends so newbies can learn from them. It's completely optional, but maybe it'll catch on if there's a demand for it.

(Quoting the confessional PT = as bad as quoting mod communications or a mason/neighbour PT, though.)

[Plotinus]

SQUEE daytalk with myself YAY.

why is quoting the confessional PT bad, since it’s your own thoughts being quoted?

[Mina]

Because I thought about it and realized we can't have nice things:

*IC is run up to L-1*

"Wait, stop! Don't lynch me! I can prove my innocence."

*quotes all 300 posts of the confessional PT, with time stamps*

Yes, I guess Mafia can waste energy writing fake confessional posts from the PoV of town, but that defeats the whole purpose of making it a zone for complete transparency. I suppose I could say it's fine if you don't reveal it's from the confessional, because I don't want to force mods to crack down on someone reusing a turn of phrase or saving a wall-post in there before posting it. I just really don't want it to be metagamed.

[chamber]

Because I thought about it and realized we can't have nice things:

*IC is run up to L-1*

"Wait, stop! Don't lynch me! I can prove my innocence."

*quotes all 300 posts of the confessional PT, with time stamps*

Yes, I guess Mafia can waste energy writing fake confessional posts from the PoV of town, but that defeats the whole purpose of making it a zone for complete transparency. I suppose I could say it's fine if you don't reveal it's from the confessional, because I don't want to force mods to crack down on someone reusing a turn of phrase or saving a wall-post in there before posting it. I just really don't want it to be metagamed.

IC's are supposed to have some amount of trust. Just tell them not to metagame it.

[Plotinus]

ah okay. that makes sense. metagaming is bad, I agree.

I drafted some posts in the mafia PT when I was scum IC. some of my IC posts I wanted to ask the mod if it was against the rules to say certain things as an IC, like telling them that in LYLO it’s generally good practice to reexamine our reads when I knew that particular advice wouldn’t help them in the particular lylo we were in, and she okayed it so I did post it verbatim.

I think not being allowed to say it’s a quote from the confessional should make it okay?

In a recent completed mini someone asked me why I’d done something a few weeks prior and I didn’t remember but I went back through my hydra PT to figure out what was i was thinking back then. and when i don’t have a PT of any sort I have a text file with thoughts in some format, not neccessarily a coherent one, that I can dump into the thread behind a spoiler if I feel it’s beneficial to me in some way (either because i’m expecting to be nightkilled or because i’m trying to get myself nightkilled or because i’m scum and people tend to townread me for doing that).

[pirate mollie]

pple can always paraphrase what is in he pt. I imagine you will be posting a lot of the same thoughts in the game thread anyways.