Regarding Third Parties

sthar8 · Post Post #25 (ISO) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:22 pm

The balance between 'a unique challenge' and 'discouragingly impossible' is a fine one.

I'm totally OK with a 3rd party that has an easy win condition if you have a way to make the game interesting for them.

I had a role in one of Fei's games that I really liked. I won if I guessed the scumteam correctly at the end of any day before the flip, and I was informed that there were only two scum. It was a weird Survivor that required scumhunting, and at one point it became a cop that did not necessarily win with the town, which was fun and different.

I actually kinda like the survivor variant of 'huge town power, loses if nk'd or lynched' but I'm not sure if others would.

Vi · Post Post #26 (ISO) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:17 pm

In post 15, Andrius wrote:Vi is pretty much saying what I was looking for. Khan brought up some great points.

Carry on. My curiosity has been stoked.

Well if you insist. Let me see what I can do.

Katsuki wrote:The lack of cult recruiters is disappointing.

Sure, let's start there.

Cults

Cult Leader

- Target a player at Night to cause them to convert to your alignment. For balance's sake let's say this works on Townies only. Standard factional Win Condition.

This has three big problems.
*Immense positive feedback - In order for the Cult to have a net loss of membership, more than one Cultist has to die in between recruitments. If the Cult Leader can recruit every Night, barring a game that resembles throwing hammers in a dynamite storage shack that's just not going to happen.
*Players can be recruited away from the alignment they would like to have. Think of a strong Town player who gets Culted only to watch their idiot Cult Leader get lynched the next Day.
*Inversely, players may openly try to throw in with the Cult if it looks like they're about to win, and the Cult Leader acts as Kingmaker picking and choosing who wins. (The initial obvious solution - if the Cult wins, it's assumed that everyone alive is Culted by default and thus everyone alive wins - is a bad idea because that's an optimal play in literally every game with a Cult, starting with the first post Day 1.)

So, the ways to use a Cult well involve reducing the positive feedback at the very least, and ideally making it so that players are satisfied with their Cult experience. Here are some examples.

Anything with a suicide clause

- If the Cult Leader dies, all Cultists die.
**This is pretty standard, I think. It stops there from being lone Cultists hanging out doing nothing, and it also incents the Cultists to protect the Cult Leader at all costs, which makes their job a bit harder but more interesting. It doesn't really solve any problems, though.

Mentor

(Mafia ViPod) - Target player to recruit them as Mentee if you do not already have a Mentee, and kill them otherwise. If the Mentor dies, the Mentee dies as well.
**This arrests the positive feedback aspect pretty significantly, and leads to interesting results if the Mentee dies. It's not perfect, but it's a fairly solid limitation on the Cult's power.

Inquisitor/Vigicultist

(most notably Mind Screw III) - Target player to kill them, and then (if they are still a valid target) recruit them.
**I think this role is brilliant because it doesn't play like a Cult Leader so much as a Serial Killer with benefits. It's -very- tough for the recruitment to actually go off unless it's announced ahead of time that a player can survive a kill but is still susceptible to a recruit (e.g. not Commuting), so it has a third utility as a punisher role in the types of role madness games where you'd see this sort of thing. The important note here is that this is better than a Mentor precisely because it has an extremely limited method of recruitment. In other words, Cults are better the less they're like Cults, if you understand my meaning.

Chairman Mao

(Mind Screw V) - Target player to ask them if they want to join your Cult. If so, they do; if not, they die.
**This tries to address the second issue with Cults, that of players being Culted unwillingly. But that's the only good thing about this implementation.

Captain Planet

(seen an unfortunate number of times on a different site) - If you quote players other than yourself who have said, in this order: "Earth" "Fire" "Wind" "Water" "Heart", then you will win and immediately exit the game.
**In other words, having unwitting Cultists or a Win Condition that is based on Day play. As hilarious as this role is the first time you see it pulled off, it's very difficult to do well because... well, in this case, your best bet is to fullclaim immediately and be as obnoxious as possible until people do it. I'm sure you could rig up a mechanism where this works (e.g. have a Sniper role that gets one shot to kill the person they think is Captain Planet), but this is design space I've yet to see used well.

By the way, and I'm sorry to everyone seeing that role for the first time, but don't use that role. Ever. Here, or elsewhere. It's already overplayed, and you would be a bad moderator for even considering it.

Mod as player (usually neutral)

The first rule of Mod-as-player is that you shouldn't do it. As a matter of fact, I

am

speaking to you, personally. Yes, you, with the face. Don't do it.

...If after all that you're still interested, and you aren't thinking of sending your setup to the NRG, then here's the deal. A good mod-as-player setup should follow these rules:
*The player must operate automatically or nearly-automatically. Otherwise you're opening yourself up to claims of bias, e.g. "we would have had a better chance if the mod themselves hadn't literally said 'oh you're doing too well, I'll kill you because I can do that'".
*The effect of the moderator's role should either be public or not something that can cause a sudden game loss.
*There must be a reasonable expectation that the moderator is a player in the game. It's not a good idea to have a near-guarantee that the moderator is a player in the game, but it should definitely cross the players' minds that it could be the case.
*There must be an incentive to prevent the moderator from getting offed at the earliest opportunity.

Let's take a look at mods-as-players in history...

The Spirit of Halloween

(DP13) - Your NK will automatically target whoever makes the thirteenth post of each Day phase.
**It's thematic enough, and SK-level one-kill-per-Night is about as far as I'd want to go with mod-player power, but the only reason this role didn't win was because the only players left were two Mafiosi who decided to trust each other and lynch the mod on a whim.

Tarhalindur

(Mind Screw III) - Tarhalindur was also the memetic SK in this game, which is kind of fuzzy ground in the first rule. He killed one of the scum because they qualified for the memetic SK's extra kill condition. Yes, Goofball should have known better than to jump right into the same thing that triggered the memetic SK from the prior game (that Tarhalindur won a Scummie for, so of course it was likely to return), but etc.

Tarhalindur

(Mind Screws III, IV, V) - In the second game, Tarhalindur was some kind of neutral role who turned out to be rather game-relevant in a way I don't remember offhand and I'm too lazy to look up (Dreaming God plus something more important IIRC). In all of the subsequent games, the very

first

thing everyone did was consider lynching the moderator. In Mind Screw III, where the mod was the SK, they should have (though they took their sweet time doing so - perhaps because of the mutually competing jesters). In the remaining games, if they didn't, GLORK why.* Basically, this is the reason behind the third and fourth rules above.

Ganondorf/Ganon

(Reckamonic's Ocarina of Time) - I don't remember the finer points of this role, but this was a role that a) had to be lynched/killed

twice

and b) had the power to autohammer confirmed innocents, of which there was at least one in the endgame when the game was actually run. The game had the second-most pages in site history at the time, but that instant at the end is what defined that game.

So, yeah, I take issue with all the ways this has been done thus far (I don't imagine anyone has done it according to the rules above yet). For an example of what I'd do with a mod-as-player, this is a segment from the scraps of my Sentinels of the Multiverse game's ruleset.

Spoiler: Text Wall

7) Multiverse Horror.

One set of Role PMs is public. You should probably read it.

-----

Abilities are categorized like so!
(F) - Factional abilities. These are shared among your faction (or faction-like group).
(P) - Passive abilities. These are always on unless otherwise specified. Permanent passive abilities are the ones that do not have a specified end condition (e.g. expires after 24 hours).
(A) - Active abilities. These are abilities you have to choose to use. They generally target someone, even if that someone is the moderator or the user. If someone successfully uses their

Nemesis

ability on you, you will not be able to use these.
(I) - Information. Take it or leave it.

This is a sample Role PM.

~NAME~

<image>

Welcome to
MAFIA of the MULTIVERSE
. You have drawn
Sixty
. ...hold on a moment. Sixty, what are you doing. You are a
dog
. You cannot even shoot lasers from your eyes.

You are aligned with
Team Earth
. You start the game with 60 SuperPoints, and your refresh rate is 6. You may spend those SuperPoints on the following abilities.

(3) (A)
Better Half
- Target self to increase your refresh rate by 1.
(8) (A)
also, woof
- Target player to discern who they target for the next two days. If investigated you will be seen targeting whoever your target targets, if they are targeting anyone.
(15) (A)
Fetch!
- Target player to take one random item they possess, if any.
(60) (A -> P)
Turn On The Charm
- Target self to become so obviously Town that not only will you be publicly confirmed Town, and not only will you become literally unlynchable, but the next time someone wants to kill you, they will instead try to pet you. You will be made aware of the identity of all players who pet you.

Your Incapacitated abilities are as follows:

(10) (P)
Resist the Doctorvet
- You may continue to post inthread until the end of the current game Day. You do not have a vote. The cost of this ability goes up by 20 each time it is used.
(50) (A -> P)
Hope for Sequel
- You may open a private topic with the player controlling Hope!Cat. You don't know Hope!Cat's alignment, of course.

(A)
Nemesis
- Your Nemesis is
The Doctorvet
.

You win when all of
Team Deathray
has been incapacitated and at least one member of
Team Earth
is active.

Please confirm via PM with the name of your alignment. I wish you the best of luck.

In addition, the following Role PM

is in the game:

~Hope!Cat~

<image>

Welcome to
MAFIA of the MULTIVERSE
. You have drawn
GloomWeaver
, the Nightmare Walker. You have long wanted to enter the Multiverse and unleash a new era of destruction, sorrow, and despair. Unfortunately, throughout your infinite lifespan you haven't figured out how to breach this dimension, but that's okay - you have some mortals on the other end who are apparently smarter than you. With the fate of the Earth in the balance, one team may decide that enlisting your help may be on the table… They'll figure the price out soon.

You are aligned with
Team Deathray
. You are being played automatically, so you don't follow the standard game rules. You automatically use your (A) ability every ten real-time days.

(A)
Power of the Grave
- This is a killing ability that targets the living player who has the lowest post count since the beginning of the game or the last time you used this ability, whichever is later. If there is a tie, then
Team Deathray
must choose one of the eligible targets for this to resolve on within 24 hours or this ability does nothing.

(P)
Extraplanar
- You are not a player in the game and cannot affect the game in any way. However, if at any time members of
Team Deathray
are holding all three
Relics
(Drum of Despair, Grimoire of Curses, Pouch of Bones), this ability will be nullified for the rest of the game.
(P)
Timeless
- You cannot be lynched. Your head isn't even attached to your shoulders. Similarly, anything that targets you with melee force or projectiles (e.g. fists and guns) will fail.
(P)
A Grasping Truth
- If you are the last member of
Team Deathray
alive and at least one member of
Team Earth
is alive, you will be removed from the game by the other players.
(I)
Nemesis
- Your Nemesis is
NightMist
.

You're the mod; you win if the game amuses you and doesn't get you kicked off the site. You also win if you take part in banning the hell out of anyone who causes problems with game integrity. Best of luck with both of those.

Your followers sacrificed
Unity
to you, and since her will has been destroyed by unrelenting despair, you also have control over her role and can use it in parallel with your own. Her Role PM is as follows:

~Hope!Cat~

<image>

Welcome to
MAFIA of the MULTIVERSE
. You have drawn
Unity
, the irresponsible technopath. Your superpower doesn't give you super-strength or the ability to fly, but it DOES give you the ability to make things that do! The vast majority of your superheroism comes in building awesome cute golems that can save the world on their own! Just - don't mind the whole taking-apart-whatever-you-can-get-your-hands-on bit; it's kind of a bad habit…

You're pretty sure you're aligned with
Team Deathray
.

(P)
Puppeteer
- You cannot act independently; you are being played automatically and cannot do anything not mentioned in this Role PM.
(P)
Raptor Bot
- If any player is at L-1 during the Day, Mr. Chomps will automatically apply a hammer vote.
(I)
Nemesis
- Your Nemeses are
Iron Legacy
and
The Radioactivist
.

As far as you know you win when
GloomWeaver
does. Have a nice day.

So not all of that was necessary for the example, but

woof

. A good presenter would list how and why that's a good way to go about having an outside influence in the game, but I trust that you can read this post multiple times until you can figure it out.

Other Miscellaneous Samples

Phantasmal Faction

(Border of Touhou and Mafia) - Here are some cool one-shot abilities. If ____ and ____ (miscellaneous other players) leave the game by any means, you will also leave the game. Standard factional Win Condition.
**I made this mistake so you don't have to - any role that depends on the good behavior of players outside their faction is a bad role. It looks like a cool role in theory but in practice it's worse than Lovers.

Sniper

(Pledge of Allegiance) - You have one shot. If you hit someone who is ____, you get your shot back. You win if you are alive when everyone who is ____ is dead.
**I'm pretty sure this is superior to Lyncher in every way. Lyncher is an awful role that derails Day play in a setting where Town already suffers just from the nature of the game; Sniper on the other hand fills the role of punisher, not-SK third-party, and person with daykills. (Daykills are great for dramatic effect with Sniper, but you probably want to limit the number of shots per day to prevent a masskill at massclaim.)

Outsider Faction

(Mind Screw something or other) - Here are some cool one-shot abilities. You get points based on ____, ____, and _____. You win if you get ___ points (this may be a sole victory).
**It sounds cool but I don't think this Win Condition has ever succeeded, so what's the point? Either the ____s need to be interesting enough to be worth playing, or you should be restructuring the role so that the ___s have some other kind of beneficial effect to a more standard Win Condition. Also, don't make this a sole victory Win Condition unless you want to tell your Town and scum that it's been real but you're calling the game in favor of this third party for how awesome they were at being Doctors or something.

Thought of the day: The "Mind Screw Mafia" series is actually the

second

-most memetic game (that is, they were so iconic that the name of the game became part of the worldwide Mafia lexicon). The first, and even more influential game? "Bastard Mod Mafia".

*GLORK = the Good Lord Only Really Knows. Adapted from hospital lingo.

Kublai Khan · Post Post #27 (ISO) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:59 pm

But Vi... What about Goo?????

Andrius · Post Post #28 (ISO) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:25 pm

I would never implement a 'Classic' Cult Recruiter as both of the key problems from such a role you described succinctly. Put in others' terms, the 'Andrius Problem' and I believe Starbuck was the one who betrayed her own cult in that TonyMontana game? I'm not certain, but that presents both sides of the coin. Granted, there are things that have been done to lessen the blow (Test of Faith, CYS) where the option to refuse recruitment was available, with different consequences.

Vi wrote:In other words, Cults are better the less they're like Cults, if you understand my meaning.

I do. The first problem is their WE ARE LEGION mindet where you said you have to kill more than one a cycle to actually lessen their numbers. X-shot recruitment would be a start, or any way to lessen recruitment. But that does not begin to address the players' reactions, thus problems two and three.

Chairman Mao addresses half the battle - the playing to win as endgame recruit and not as current win condition is the other, no matter how you dice the problem. This was my biggest complaint after Succession Mafia I.

Iecerint · Post Post #29 (ISO) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:05 pm

Mykonian had a cult game where cult could only recruit every other day, and they could only have a maximum of N cult members at a time (recruitment when at capacity required that a current cult suicide and flip cult).

DeasVail · Post Post #30 (ISO) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:44 pm

I've only been a serial killer once, and I loved playing it. The need to balance out the strength of mafia and town while evading lynch and night-kill adds a unique challenge that incorporates what I believe to be the most fun parts of each alignment. As a non-SK player, I don't mind having a serial killer in the game and in fact like how the possibility of a serial killer prevents a vig from becoming confirmed town. If I've been a different kind of third party, I've forgotten it and don't really have an opinion on the others.

Vi · Post Post #31 (ISO) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:49 pm

In post 27, Kublai Khan wrote:But Vi... What about Goo?????

Define Goo. I haven't done Xylbot enough.

Mykonian had a cult game where cult could only recruit every other day, and they could only have a maximum of N cult members at a time (recruitment when at capacity required that a current cult suicide and flip cult).

Oh right, that game. The problem is that IIRC there was no other anti-Town element in that game, so it was still 2deaths1recruit, which is just as bad as a baseline game.

...well, the other problem was that myko refused to call it a cult or bastard game over the pleadings of the reviewers. "They'll figure it out."

Kublai Khan · Post Post #32 (ISO) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:45 am

In post 31, Vi wrote:
In post 27, Kublai Khan wrote:But Vi... What about Goo?????
Define Goo. I haven't done Xylbot enough.

Hmm.. I was going to quote them, but the goo roles are pretty horrible at first read.

But, I was thinking of a cult variation more similar to the "Outsider Faction" you listed. Say I have a role called

"You are Glork. You support Green Shirt Thursdays. So much so that you've decided to pro-actively outfit people with those shirts. Every night you can target another player and change their shirt color to green. {Mod Note: Target may or may not be notified of the shirt change. Target's original alignment is not affected.}. You win and leave the game when every living player has a green shirt and it is a Thursday.

So, it's a non-recruiting conditional cult. I'm pretty sure I remember it been seen before, but I can't remember how good the role ended up being.

Kagami · Post Post #33 (ISO) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:26 am

my role in greyICE's vampire game was third party done properly, imo. It's functionally similar to the green shirt thing, but radically improved.

Note that it's not technically "3rd party" because of the town win con, but it nevertheless plays as anti-town.

quadz08 · Post Post #34 (ISO) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:17 am

In post 32, Kublai Khan wrote:
In post 31, Vi wrote:
In post 27, Kublai Khan wrote:But Vi... What about Goo?????
Define Goo. I haven't done Xylbot enough.

Hmm.. I was going to quote them, but the goo roles are pretty horrible at first read.

But, I was thinking of a cult variation more similar to the "Outsider Faction" you listed. Say I have a role called
"You are Glork. You support Green Shirt Thursdays. So much so that you've decided to pro-actively outfit people with those shirts. Every night you can target another player and change their shirt color to green. {Mod Note: Target may or may not be notified of the shirt change. Target's original alignment is not affected.}. You win and leave the game when every living player has a green shirt and it is a Thursday.

So, it's a non-recruiting conditional cult. I'm pretty sure I remember it been seen before, but I can't remember how good the role ended up being.

Similar role was used in Reckoning III Invitational.

Spoiler: triforce

This role is actually significantly stronger than what you've described - victory is at 50% of living players, not all, and the shirt gives you action immunity. The problem is that there is no earlygame protection whatsoever for this role. That's the biggest issue I've personally run into with third parties. Vi actually was a third party role in AGar and I's Experimental Role Mafia which had a similar issue of no earlygame protection:

Spoiler: Vi

AGar and I were so convinced that this role was wtfstrong that we gave it no protection whatsoever - predictably, Vi was nightkilled almost immediately.

Andrius · Post Post #35 (ISO) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:08 am

I love that role idea, and think it removed the second and thirs problems vi mentioned since players are not changes alignment. Also Glrok.

Though he would have to leave the game on winning; if his win was a endgame trigger, that would be a different matter entirely, right?

Vi · Post Post #36 (ISO) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:17 am

The Green Shirt cult is absolutely Vi approved. It's probably totally superior to Bookie.

Fire was a godawful role any way you slice it because you essentially have to have foreknowledge of Night actions. It's a Serial Killer that

only

works as a punisher role.

Kublai Khan · Post Post #37 (ISO) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:32 pm

In post 34, quadz08 wrote:Similar role was used in Reckoning III Invitational.

Spoiler: triforce
A Simple Math Problem wrote:Hello
Triforce
and welcome to the Reckoning 3 (Math is hard!) Invitational.

You are
Shea and the Green Shirt Thursday Cult
and you are aligned with
Yourself

Who plays mafia anyways? No matter how much Reckoner tries to force you to play, you'd rather be doing other things...like playing Dominion and recruiting people into the cult of
green shirts
.

Win Condition
: Over 50% of the players in the game are wearing a
green shirt
while you are still alive. You will leave the game in victory the instant this happens.

Role Name
:
Green-Shirt
Giver

Ability(s):

Green Shirts
Everyday
: Every night you may give another player a
green shirt
. They will be told that they are now wearing one via PM and will flip "... who was wearing a
green shirt
" if they die. Wearing a
green shirt
does not affect a player's alignment in any way. However, you are immune to actions from anybody who is wearing one. For instance, if you give a green shirt to somebody on the same night that they try to shoot you, you their action will fail.

You leave the game in victory if you are alive when over half of the living players have a
green shirt
. You count as wearing a green shirt.

This role is actually significantly stronger than what you've described - victory is at 50% of living players, not all, and the shirt gives you action immunity. The problem is that there is no earlygame protection whatsoever for this role.

Yes! That's probably very likely where I remember it from. Though there may be earlier/later/parallel version where someone wanted to make sure everyone had a cupcake...?

The strength of it (50-75-100% of living players) is just an adjustment that can be tailored to individual games and mod's tastes, same with advising the targeted (revealing existence). I like the idea that the 3rd party player has day-play incentive to push certain lynches and prevent others. This works more towards helping scum stay hidden and hurting town. In theory. Balance-wise. I think. But it's swingy depending on who gets shirted.

Re: earlygame protection "problem"... Ugh. You can't favorize roles and force them to make it to later game. That is bad game design. Third party wins are rare because they are difficult and thrilling because they are rare. If you overpower the role so they have a better chance to survive and win, then you make any future 3rd party wins hollow and meaningless.

Andrius · Post Post #38 (ISO) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:32 pm

I totally understand that sentiment - my favorite 3rd party 'win' (technically a draw) was VPB in Dark Goma Massacre. While he didn't technically win, he brought it down to a 1v1 with a bulletproof townie; a match-up many mods would hand to him. But his play throughout the game and series of claims helped him and pressed forward to a long and hard-won victory.

I, at least, loved reading the game.

quadz08 · Post Post #39 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:23 am

In post 37, Kublai Khan wrote:
In post 34, quadz08 wrote:Similar role was used in Reckoning III Invitational.

Spoiler: triforce
A Simple Math Problem wrote:Hello
Triforce
and welcome to the Reckoning 3 (Math is hard!) Invitational.

You are
Shea and the Green Shirt Thursday Cult
and you are aligned with
Yourself

Who plays mafia anyways? No matter how much Reckoner tries to force you to play, you'd rather be doing other things...like playing Dominion and recruiting people into the cult of
green shirts
.

Win Condition
: Over 50% of the players in the game are wearing a
green shirt
while you are still alive. You will leave the game in victory the instant this happens.

Role Name
:
Green-Shirt
Giver

Ability(s):

Green Shirts
Everyday
: Every night you may give another player a
green shirt
. They will be told that they are now wearing one via PM and will flip "... who was wearing a
green shirt
" if they die. Wearing a
green shirt
does not affect a player's alignment in any way. However, you are immune to actions from anybody who is wearing one. For instance, if you give a green shirt to somebody on the same night that they try to shoot you, you their action will fail.

You leave the game in victory if you are alive when over half of the living players have a
green shirt
. You count as wearing a green shirt.

This role is actually significantly stronger than what you've described - victory is at 50% of living players, not all, and the shirt gives you action immunity. The problem is that there is no earlygame protection whatsoever for this role.

Yes! That's probably very likely where I remember it from. Though there may be earlier/later/parallel version where someone wanted to make sure everyone had a cupcake...?

The strength of it (50-75-100% of living players) is just an adjustment that can be tailored to individual games and mod's tastes, same with advising the targeted (revealing existence). I like the idea that the 3rd party player has day-play incentive to push certain lynches and prevent others. This works more towards helping scum stay hidden and hurting town. In theory. Balance-wise. I think. But it's swingy depending on who gets shirted.

Re: earlygame protection "problem"... Ugh. You can't favorize roles and force them to make it to later game. That is bad game design. Third party wins are rare because they are difficult and thrilling because they are rare. If you overpower the role so they have a better chance to survive and win, then you make any future 3rd party wins hollow and meaningless.

You say "overpower" and "hollow and meaningless," I say "balance" and "feasible"

Venmar · Post Post #40 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:58 pm

In post 0, Andrius wrote:I won't do a poll this time but I want some honest opinions about third parties.

1. What do you like about third parties?

I enjoy the presence they serve in the game. They spice things up, they throw a wrench into the plans of both the town and the mafia as a whole. The "what the fuck why is there a maniac with a knife trying to slit

everyones

throats in the game" factor is always interesting to see and have. I'm also a supporter for dual-mafia's, as a side note, but that's beside the point.

In post 0, Andrius wrote:
2. What makes playing third party exciting/fun?

The fact that you do not answer to anyone but yourself. There's no mafia teammates to play nice with, or a town win condition to keep in mind. You are the master of your own fate. The most interesting thing of playing as a Serial Killer (i've never played as one, sadly, but this is what I think) is that you can decide which side you can indirectly help. You can weaken the mafia, you can weaken the town, you can choose sides depending on which best suits your needs. Or, better yet, you can decide to not give a fuck and just mess everyone's shit up, causing chaos.

In post 0, Andrius wrote:
3. What do you NOT like about them?

From a player playing as a Third Party standpoint, I do imagine that they are difficult to win with because you need to defeat and/or outwit both the town and the mafia . From a player not playing as a third party standpoint, the things that makes them exciting to play as are annoying to you regardless of alignment because now you have another force to deal with. From a mods standpoint, most third parties make the games swingy and harder to balance. For example, the presence of a Serial Killer means more deaths in the night, and a non-town/non-scum flip in the event of a lynch, all which are swingy.

In post 0, Andrius wrote:
4. What makes playing third party NOT fun or exciting?
What makes you want to punch the mod in the throat?

I actually basically answered this in the previous question, since they're almost the same questions. But, Third Parties are not fun to play against if they're a Cult Leader, Survivor, Jester, etc, because those are finnicky and don't exactly promote strategy or fun from any party involved. I imagine playing as any of these is boring. (Maybe not Cult Leader, that seems like a really fun role to be, honestly, just not that fun to be on the receiving end of the power.)

In post 0, Andrius wrote:
5. Does the lack of a kill make/break the experience? (Aka non-killing related third parties.)

I think so. Considering that the Third Parties that

have

a kill (Serial Killer, Arson, etc) are more widely accepted than those who don't (Cult Leader, Survivor, Lyncher, Jester, etc), I think Third Parties

with

a kill usually are both more reasonable to go up against as mafia/town, and much more fun to play

as

.

Faraday · Post Post #41 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:01 pm

the more i've played the more i've hated third party roles

FakeGod · Post Post #42 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:12 pm

Faraday wrote:the more i've played the more i've hated third party roles

that's what I like to hear from my reviewers

Vi · Post Post #43 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:17 pm

In post 41, Faraday wrote:the more i've played the more i've hated third party roles

The more I've modded the more I've hated third-party roles. :/
Most of the times I've considered putting one in, I've decided it would be better to put that ability set onto a mainstream alignment.

Venmar · Post Post #44 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:18 pm

Hard to balance and justify in a setup, i'd agree.

But they can be fun, which is usually the only reason they're included in games by mods.

Kublai Khan · Post Post #45 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:19 pm

Balance isn't nearly as important as everything thinks it is.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #46 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:28 pm

In post 44, Venmar wrote:they can be fun, which is usually the only reason they're included in games by mods.

Fun for who?

I personally can't recall ever thinking, "Oh, there's a serial killer in this game. This is fun."

Katsuki · Post Post #47 (ISO) » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:51 pm

The lack of mentor roles is disappointing. I don't think I've ever seen one on MS before.

Vi · Post Post #48 (ISO) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:21 am

In post 47, Katsuki wrote:The lack of mentor roles is disappointing. I don't think I've ever seen one on MS before.

successful troll is not successful

Klingoncelt · Post Post #49 (ISO) » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:20 pm

In post 46, zMuffinMan wrote:
In post 44, Venmar wrote:they can be fun, which is usually the only reason they're included in games by mods.

Fun for who?

I personally can't recall ever thinking, "Oh, there's a serial killer in this game. This is fun."

Yeah, I wouldn't use the word "fun."

But I like having the challenge of finding the SK. It forces me to use my brain.