Bastard games - does anyone actually like them?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Serious question. What's the draw?

I just got done with a game elsewhere where going into the day, there was a 2-2 draw between scum and town (the game is sometimes not called until one side or the other is actually eliminated).

The vote was deadlocked at 2-2, the mod declared phase change, and told us the tie was broken by a player who was killed by mafia on N1 (he remained as a ghost for one more day and night phase, but by the point where he broke the tie, he was twice dead).

Mafia then kills the cop, leaving it 1-1, mod says first one to vote the other wins. I was of course at work in a meeting at the time,and frankly, after the mod shenanigans on the prior day, I didn't care. The townie left standing had 3x bulletproof/lynch immunity.

Scum literally owned the game the entire way and lost - our only dead player was an investigation immune goon who was investigated by a cop who could apparently investigate immune players.

There was way more insanity to the game (insanity, but at least not downright bastard) but I have to wonder - what's the point of playing a game where the mod will do this kind of crap and punish the team who would otherwise have a hammerlock on the win?

[zMuffinMan]

There's bastard games like that, where they're more for the personal enjoyment of the mod than the playerlist. They're not fun beyond the novelty of "lolshenanigans". Honestly, at a certain point, it's not a game of mafia, no matter how much you want to call it one just because there are factions, roles and votes. The game you described isn't mafia. The mod is a fucking idiot if he tells you it is.

Then there's slightly-less-bastard-but-still-considered-bastard games, where one or more aspects of the game may not be as you'd expect in a regular mafia game and, depending on just how "bastard" these aspects are, enjoyment can still be derived from the game.

[Who]

a game elsewhere

Well there's your problem.

That isn't bastard. That's shitty modding. There's a difference.

[Wisdom]

^this.

Basically, there are different types of bastard games. When the mod knows what he is doing, bastard games can be hilarious and very enjoyable, and in some cases even better than non-bastard ones. I for one love them.

[Andrius]

A game that needs to be a bit bastard to truly flush out the theme/characters/mechanics is fine with me.
The only bastard game I've ever played was Plum's Children of Hurin Mafia, and some of the mechanics there were bastard, but largely necessary. (Didn't particularly enjoy the ??? role, but some of the others were necessary.)

Some of the CYS games push this a bit, but as long as it makes sense, people expect some :things:, its fine with me.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

a game elsewhere

Well there's your problem.

That isn't bastard. That's shitty modding. There's a difference.

Good point - at the root of my issue here is the fact that the mod actively manipulated the game rather than just letting the players play their role, no matter what they were.

Crazy games with weird roles, sure, that can be loads of fun - but not the mod "manipulating the game as he sees fit" - which is what he told us he did at the end of the game. Even the latter is OK, if you know that's what you're in for when you start.

[Wisdom]

You mean it wasn't even advertised as bastard? That's pretty stupid and I'm sure it would never be allowed here.

[Nero Cain]

There's bastard games like that, where they're more for the personal enjoyment of the mod than the playerlist. They're not fun beyond the novelty of "lolshenanigans".

100% this.

I very much dislike them.

A game that needs to be a bit bastard to truly flush out the theme/characters/mechanics is fine with me.

This is ok though.

Other than marathon games which are p much all bastard, I think I've played in one bastard game onsite and never again. Though I guess its possible that a skilled mod could create a bastard game that's not a steaming pile of shit.

[Vampirate]

It pretty much goes like this, does the bastardization fit the spirit and theme of the game? If yes than it should be ok, if not then the mod isn't a bastard he/she is an asshole.

Also bastard elements should be able to solve through logic.
"This happened, thus if I do this, this will happen again.

Mafia is based on figuring things out, bastard elements should be no different.

[Vi]

Games should be fun for all parties.
Even if the game has things that are traditionally disliked (e.g. include Cults and Jesters and roles where the player is screwed or given ambiguous information about their role), if the game is still fun in the end it was a success.

...although people tend to prefer being aware that their game features "unorthodox role design".

Also, it should be noted that bastard modding is just bad modding with star quality, if you understand my pun. Cults and Jesters and Suicidal Townies don't make for a fun game on their own, after all (in fact, the whole point is that they normally make for godawful games - that's why the games that work are star quality; it's much more likely that a bastard game will blow up in your face than work just as you're envisioning it in your head).

Also Andrius is making me sad that the two good Mind Screw games were before basically everyone's time now.

[Andrius]

Its ok Vi there's a new Fire Emblem coming out. Happiness abounds!

But I think the key takeaway from this thread, and a couple others with discussion, is more that the role/game being fun is the most important thing.

[T-Bone]

Yeah that wasn't a bastard game...that was a bad game. As a mod who enjoys making bastard games I am insulted.

[Kublai Khan]

Bastard games suck. Don't play them.

[saulres]

I tried to keep my bastard games balanced, but fun for the players. I don't always succeed, but I wouldn't mess around with things the way the OP's mod did. That's just bad.

[Titus]

a game elsewhere

Well there's your problem.

That isn't bastard. That's shitty modding. There's a difference.

This 100 times over.

I love bastard mechanics but lying to the players (beyond busdriver,redirector, tailors and millers) is over the top.

[Titus]

Cults and jesters on this site are so broken.

Suicidal townies are epic fun.

[BBmolla]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32520

would this be considered bastard

[Andrius]

Dont think so. I mean, its tricksy, but I don't think its bastard. Not lying to players, actions perform correctly.

[zMuffinMan]

By standard rules of what is or isn't bastard, it seems fine.

Though it seems like the kind of gimmick I would hate if I rolled scum in that game, unless I knew exactly what to expect (it seems part of the TIP case D2 revolved around him thinking a paranoid cop could exist and, while it doesn't seem to be the only reason he was lynched, it's not a great feeling when you're screwed over by the setup).

It also seems to have led to an unnecessary mass claim D1 that ended up outing the seer (the only actually useful role). If this is what you were going for, then seer seems like a strange role to put in the game. If this wasn't what you were going for, then it seems like an oversight.

[BBmolla]

See here:

Welcome,

sangres

, you are a

Werewolf Goon

along with your buddy,

TheIrishPope

, who is a

Werewolf Goon

.

Abilities

• During the Day, you may vote for whomever you want lynched.
  
• Factional Kill:
  The Werewolves may kill one player per Night.
  
• Factional Communication:
  If there are other Werewolf-aligned players, there will be a Werewolf QT that can be used pre-game and during the Night.
  
• Secret Knowledge:
  You know that at least half the players in this game are Town Cops.

Win Condition

You win when all players without a Werewolf wincon are eliminated and at least one Werewolf-aligned player is still alive (or nothing can prevent the same).

I think I gave them enough to figure it out.

And I would have expected the Seer to figure shit out once the cops started claiming.

I don't really regret anything, it played out pretty hilariously. Town and Scum both got screwed via not knowing shit so it evened out.

[zMuffinMan]

I think I would have given scum full cop fake-claims (I mean if you're going to imply it's the case, you may as well just outright give them the fake-claim).

To be honest, if I were town in that, I might have come up with a strategy that involved paraphrasing parts of the town cop PM to weed out the fake-claims.

Worst that could happen is it got us nowhere. Best that could have happened is catching scum.

It's dangerous to play games like that, even if it can be hilarious to watch it play out.

[Vi]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32520

would this be considered bastard

Some people would say yes, and I would tell those people to go back to the Normal queue.

Giving the scum information about the setup is always delicate business, though - although most scum won't use the information properly anyway, being risk-averse and etc.

[ZZZX]

i believe a well done bastard game is fun

i hosted a single game outside here and it was bastard. it was actually fun and interesting

I will actually post the mini setup here just to see what u guys think (in spoilers ofc)

Spoiler:

Name - Role - Flavor Name

((( THE W.A.L.L )))
XXX - Vanilla Townie Nial Seven
XXX - Vanilla Townie Raiser Runic (knows that ZZZX's role is a JOAT)
XXX - Vanilla Townie Caide Jin (knows that Scarlet assasin(flavor name) is in the game and is town)
XXX - Vanilla Townie Scarlet Assasin ( Knows that Caide Jin (Flavor) is in the game and is town)
XXX - Vanilla Townie Agent X (Knows that no town role starts with K or B
XXX - Vanilla Townie Jeval Trip
XXX - Town JOAT ZZZX (Dayvig – Fixed Cop – Self-IC) Can only be use one skill every 2 days // knows shadow is town and uses fixed cop to know his name
XXX - Town Kills Self Redirector Striker (targets someone and redirects all kills that target him to self)
XXX - Town Converters killer Private Jack (If any convertor targets him the converter will die)
XXX - One sided best friends Shadow (knows ZZZX is town and knows his in-game name. Knows that ZZZX needs to use a skill to find his identity)

((( THE REVOLUTION )))
XXX - Mafia 1-shot Hacker K. Jel (Knows all info the mod sent to the player (NOT the abilities but the results of the abilities + any other info about flavor names)
XXX - Mafia 1-shot recruiter B.Legend (can recruit any vanillas)
XXX - Mafia Goon Ol LeonHeart (Knows noone has any info about his Name being a scum-name

((( THE BOMB (AKA lightbringer/SK)
XXX - Lightbringer:
-Wins if survived to day 4.
-Needs to use one of his skills every night
Abilites:
-No lynch day: Causes the next day to have no lynches. Delays win condition by one day.
-Freeze Letter: Controls Drones in the room to target anyone who uses a letter (the mod will announce that) anyone who uses the latter 3 times will be modkilled (mercylessly)
-Ultimate Revealing Sword of Light: Reveals the Role PM of a player via the mod
-Seal dominance: Causes the win condition to be delayed by one day
-I CAN SEE THEM: Tells you the name of a random member of the mafia

Win condition: Wins if the game doesnt end before day 4 (5-6 depending on abilities)

Setup info:
- There is a solo role who wins if the game reaches day 4 (and he is alive) and everyone else loses.
- In case all the mafia dies the solo role automatically loses
- Alignments CAN change in this game. I cant confirm if it is present or not.
- There are NO fake claims to be provided since the theme isn't well known however some roles might know a certain name is town/scum.
- You know ZZZX is the name of a charcter in this theme and is town alligned
- this setup is slightly bastard.

Result:

Town win Day 4 by mafia elimination (after the mafia killed the bomb at night 3)

Edit: OOT Can that setup actually be a substituate for a game of experiance here?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

It may very well be that what my idea of a "bastard game" was and what some of you are saying aren't the same thing - because I can see the fun in the types of games you're talking about. I suppose it's asshole mods that I have a problem with.

a game elsewhere

Well there's your problem.

That isn't bastard. That's shitty modding. There's a difference.

Yeah, I see your point. I'm not going to take the games very seriously there any more, I think. I set up the Mafia section on a forum where I'm an admin at the request of one of the regulars, and became intrigued by the game. Problem is, the playerbase there is tiny and is mostly newbs and some experienced players who's idea of what mafia is is quite different from the site meta here. A minimally competent newb player from here could destroy those games, if not for the fact that many of the games are ungagged and allow players to communicate via whatever means they wish (PM, Skype, whatever), and there's a clique of players who do so amongst themselves but rarely anyone else, leaving mostly crickets in the game thread. Some of the players seem to flake off whenever they don't get a "decent" role, and there's no pool of replacements.

I almost want to let the whole thing die, my interest in playing that particular type of game is about zero. That's a large part about why I'm here, I like that there's actual standards in the different queues, and it's possible to have an idea of what you're getting into before you sign up for a game.

Your point is well-taken. "A game elsewhere" probably *is* my problem.

Games should be fun for all parties.
Even if the game has things that are traditionally disliked (e.g. include Cults and Jesters and roles where the player is screwed or given ambiguous information about their role), if the game is still fun in the end it was a success.

This I can wholeheartedly agree with.

I completely agree. In the case I brought up, the game was breakable by a D1 flavor massclaim (theme game, the source material had exactly 15 characters, and in the opening, the mod killed 4 of them, leaving 11 characters for 11 players, with two of three scum being obvscum), and illogical / unpredictable/manipulated aspects to the vote made it unfun for everyone who wasn't a benificiary of them. The game was obviously being steered in such a way that the protagonist from the source material was the last townie alive (3x bp / lynch immunity pretty much guarantees that), but the end was essentially reduced to a coin flip, and that's unfun.

It was kind of sad, because if not for a few really poor design and implementation decisions made by the mod, it actually would have been a really good game, win or lose.

[Cheery Dog]

if not for the fact that many of the games are ungagged and allow players to communicate via whatever means they wish (PM, Skype, whatever), and there's a clique of players who do so amongst themselves but rarely anyone else, leaving mostly crickets in the game thread. Some of the players seem to flake off whenever they don't get a "decent" role, and there's no pool of replacements.

This is pretty much the reason I left the site I originally played mafia on. That and losing interest in the site's actual purpose.