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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:42 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 22, Muffin wrote:
In post 10, xRECKONERx wrote:This trend really has picked up recently. It's like the new site culture is to worship being fucking stupid and think it's
hilarious
to do dumb shit F4R TEH LULZ LMAO in a game people devote months of time into playing.


I've noticed this hand-in-hand with a "cases are scummy" attitude that discourages lucid thought processes in favour of giving towncred to people who just post shit like "#202 is p town" or "[playername] is scum, VOTE: playername".

Sadly I haven't rolled scum recently, because I feel like I could get away with murder (literally) under this meta.

Yep.

"Cases are scummy" is the worst thing to happen to this site.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:18 am

Post by quadz08 »

people taking 'cases are scummy' literally is pretty shit, yeah
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:18 am

Post by kuribo »

I tend to hammer when I replace into a game within a couple of hours if someone is at L-1, regardless of alignment

I do this because it's much easier to
pretend to
read the game during the night phase


and much easier to get NK'd immediately
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:59 am

Post by BROseidon »

In post 22, Muffin wrote:
In post 10, xRECKONERx wrote:This trend really has picked up recently. It's like the new site culture is to worship being fucking stupid and think it's
hilarious
to do dumb shit F4R TEH LULZ LMAO in a game people devote months of time into playing.


I've noticed this hand-in-hand with a "cases are scummy" attitude that discourages lucid thought processes in favour of giving towncred to people who just post shit like "#202 is p town" or "[playername] is scum, VOTE: playername".

Sadly I haven't rolled scum recently, because I feel like I could get away with murder (literally) under this meta.


In all fairness, cases and logic are actually scummy. Or at the very least not towny.
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:00 am

Post by BROseidon »

Like, any argument about cases being a pro-town thing turns mafia into "let the alignment of the best communicators win," which is pretty dumb.
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:01 am

Post by BROseidon »

(The reasoning behind "cases are scummy" is that it's a lot easier for scum to succeed when you force the game out of the realm of gut into the realm of logic because logic is relatively easy to fake, especially for someone with strong communication skills. By keeping the game on a gut-level, scum are forced into more unnatural situations trying to imitate town thought processes)
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:05 am

Post by Psyche »

I've never really been convinced that cases work.
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:18 am

Post by quadz08 »

I see your point, but if we move to a primarily gut-based method, then all you get is "I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT" and everything is yelly and terrible and not fun forever
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:23 am

Post by GreyICE »

In post 32, quadz08 wrote:I see your point, but if we move to a primarily gut-based method, then all you get is "I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT NO I AM RIGHT" and everything is yelly and terrible and not fun forever

The major problem I have with cases is that they tend to try and look at the aggregate of a player's posting history. The aggregate of a player's posting history is usually heavily dependent on the player's strength in Mafia - for example, Furcolow v. Hito, you'll tend to lynch Furcolow over Hito regardless of their alignment.

It's better to focus on one or two posts, and jump immediately. It's also not necessary to immediately make a case, because often that derails pressure - three votes in quick succession if all three people see the same thing puts a LOT of pressure on a player.

Gut based voting is pretty terrible overall, but there's a lot of scumhunting that looks like "gut" to people who want a 12 point list.
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:02 am

Post by choof »

have a disclaimer that shows whenever you signup that says "if u play fast paced games on a different site throw everything you know about mafia out the window"
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:09 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 28, BROseidon wrote:
In post 22, Muffin wrote:
In post 10, xRECKONERx wrote:This trend really has picked up recently. It's like the new site culture is to worship being fucking stupid and think it's
hilarious
to do dumb shit F4R TEH LULZ LMAO in a game people devote months of time into playing.


I've noticed this hand-in-hand with a "cases are scummy" attitude that discourages lucid thought processes in favour of giving towncred to people who just post shit like "#202 is p town" or "[playername] is scum, VOTE: playername".

Sadly I haven't rolled scum recently, because I feel like I could get away with murder (literally) under this meta.


In all fairness, cases and logic are actually scummy. Or at the very least not towny.

In post 29, BROseidon wrote:Like, any argument about cases being a pro-town thing turns mafia into "let the alignment of the best communicators win," which is pretty dumb.


Mafia is fundamentally a game of persuasion.

To pretend otherwise is delusional, and even "gut" players need to try to convince/persuade others. Without any persuasion, we might as well play single-player against AI opponents. Given that persuasion is an integral and inseparable part of the game, why would we want to discourage the more skilled players from winning?

It'd be like playing hockey with a culture of "accurate shots and passes are dumb".

In post 30, BROseidon wrote:(The reasoning behind "cases are scummy" is that it's a lot easier for scum to succeed when you force the game out of the realm of gut into the realm of logic because logic is relatively easy to fake, especially for someone with strong communication skills. By keeping the game on a gut-level, scum are forced into more unnatural situations trying to imitate town thought processes)


Wow I could not disagree more. You can do literally anything, hammer anyone, when all that's required of you is to say "it was gut, lol".
Last edited by Muffin on Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:12 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 31, Psyche wrote:I've never really been convinced that cases work.


It's not about making huge textwalls, it's about being able to demonstrate a cogent, traceable town-minded thought process.

Giving towncred to people who post inane shit like "#123 is p town, #321 is p scum" and nothing else just makes it significantly easier for scum to hide and "act town".
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:13 am

Post by choof »

In post 24, GreyICE wrote: Too many games hit deadline anyway


if this is an issue to people then 2 week day phases are too long
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:27 am

Post by quadz08 »

In post 37, choof wrote:
In post 24, GreyICE wrote: Too many games hit deadline anyway


if this is an issue to people then 2 week day phases are too long

IME, the "run things to deadline all the time" thing is dying off, which is good. Having the 2weekish deadline is good, because it allows for that discussion
if it's necessary
. The issue comes when everyone is agreed on a lynch, but people are like "DON'T LYNCH THEM YET LET'S KEEP TALKING TO GET MORE INFORMATION." No - lynch the fucker when 50% of you think they are scum, unless you're waiting for a specific PR to say something or some other mechanic-related thing.
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:42 am

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In post 0, Aeronaut wrote:But do you guys think that would be to inhibitive of players to force that? Is LOLhammering just a part of the game that we should all live with? I don't know.

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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:58 am

Post by choof »

In post 38, quadz08 wrote: The issue comes when everyone is agreed on a lynch, but people are like "DON'T LYNCH THEM YET LET'S KEEP TALKING TO GET MORE INFORMATION." No - lynch the fucker when 50% of you think they are scum, unless you're waiting for a specific PR to say something or some other mechanic-related thing.


why is it an issue to wait for a defense from someone at L-1
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:10 am

Post by Psyche »

In post 36, Muffin wrote:
In post 31, Psyche wrote:I've never really been convinced that cases work.


It's not about making huge textwalls, it's about being able to demonstrate a cogent, traceable town-minded thought process.

Giving towncred to people who post inane shit like "#123 is p town, #321 is p scum" and nothing else just makes it significantly easier for scum to hide and "act town".


If "#123 is p town, #321 is p scum" can achieve the same results as "cogent, traceable town-minded thought process", then they're both equally inane by at least one standard.

But you don't seem to be arguing that the two are better approach to finding scum. Instead, you seem to be arguing that scum and town are more obvious when everyone engages in the latter rather than the former. That's cool, but if you can't credibly show people that they will lynch scum more often if they take the time to engage in these "cogent, traceable town-minded thought process", I don't see how you can expect people who do agree to play the game your way to do so in a manner that looks genuine.

It's as if you're telling some dude to participate in a religious ceremony that he doesn't believe in, all while planning to kill him if it doesn't look like he's doing it with conviction. Ridiculous.
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:20 am

Post by GreyICE »

In post 37, choof wrote:
In post 24, GreyICE wrote: Too many games hit deadline anyway


if this is an issue to people then 2 week day phases are too long

To be clear, 2 week day phases are fine (although I'm starting to lean 10 day) because they allow discussion when its necessary. Bringing up the deadline would only make MORE games hit deadline.
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:32 am

Post by Psyche »

I do believe that there are good cases, and good ways to build cases.

But I also think that readiness to make posts like "#123 is p town, #321 is p scum" comes from decisions by individual players about the relative effectiveness of strategies for finding scum. Would the average player find scum more reliably if he engaged in some demonstrably cogent, traceable town-minded thought process rather than use his gut when reading a thread? I really doubt it. I really do.

And I think part of the reason is because our only guidance on what goes into a good case is a wiki of lame scumtells.
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:10 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 41, Psyche wrote:If "#123 is p town, #321 is p scum" can achieve the same results as "cogent, traceable town-minded thought process", then they're both equally inane by at least one standard.
My contention is that the former makes it easier for scum to hide, and the latter makes it harder. I have not seen evidence that they produce/achieve the same results, nor would I expect to.

But you don't seem to be arguing that the two are better approach to finding scum.
Correct.

Instead, you seem to be arguing that scum and town are more obvious when everyone engages in the latter rather than the former. That's cool, but if you can't credibly show people that they will lynch scum more often if they take the time to engage in these "cogent, traceable town-minded thought process", I don't see how you can expect people who do agree to play the game your way to do so in a manner that looks genuine.
Well, can you show anyone that they can credibly lynch scum more often if they just go "psyche is p town" over and over?

I can point to at least one anecdotal bit of evidence, which is Wisdom and maybe one or two others in Mastin's recently completed bastard Large Theme. Wisdom didn't display an ounce of what I would call "a town thought process" but for reasons passing understanding, others were townreading that slot. Myself and a few others fought a huge uphill battle to get Wisdom lynched, often against misguided townies.

Titus, on the other hand, did a really good job of presenting argumentation with seemingly-consistent reasonings and might have won the game. She certainly had me fooled.

IMHO this reinforces my point: people shouldn't give a person towncred for just making declarative statements without providing the accompanying reasoning or thought process.

It's as if you're telling some dude to participate in a religious ceremony that he doesn't believe in, all while planning to kill him if it doesn't look like he's doing it with conviction. Ridiculous.
I don't really think that that's an accurate characterisation of what's going on here. I'd say it's more akin to telling some dude that vaccines don't cause autism, but he and a huge majority of others have been taken in by some kind of popular wisdom, and it's dragging everyone down into a pit where intellectual mediocrity is not only accepted but expected and cherished.

In post 43, Psyche wrote:I do believe that there are good cases, and good ways to build cases.

But I also think that readiness to make posts like "#123 is p town, #321 is p scum" comes from decisions by individual players about the relative effectiveness of strategies for finding scum. Would the average player find scum more reliably if he engaged in some demonstrably cogent, traceable town-minded thought process rather than use his gut when reading a thread? I really doubt it. I really do.
It's not just about finding scum. It's also about being read as town so that others can come to the same conclusions as you. Purposely making yourself look scummy by actively refusing to provide a thought process for others to follow is just lazy.

I think you're misunderstanding my point.

And I think part of the reason is because our only guidance on what goes into a good case is a wiki of lame scumtells.
Speak for yourself. I find "tells" to be highly overrated.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:19 am

Post by Psyche »



I can point to at least one anecdotal bit of evidence, which is Wisdom and maybe one or two others in Mastin's recently completed bastard Large Theme. Wisdom didn't display an ounce of what I would call "a town thought process" but for reasons passing understanding, others were townreading that slot. Myself and a few others fought a huge uphill battle to get Wisdom lynched, often against misguided townies.

Titus, on the other hand, did a really good job of presenting argumentation with seemingly-consistent reasonings and might have won the game. She certainly had me fooled.

IMHO this reinforces my point: people shouldn't give a person towncred for just making declarative statements without providing the accompanying reasoning or thought process.


It seems like it underscores the problem with treating "presenting argumentation with seemingly-consistent reasonings" like a towntell.

And your analogy doesn't really seem to go anywhere
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:08 am

Post by Muffin »

In post 45, Psyche wrote:It seems like it underscores the problem with treating "presenting argumentation with seemingly-consistent reasonings" like a towntell.


Okay. My understanding of your (and I guess Bro's) argument is thus:

  • Playing by "gut" is better because scum can't fabricate plausible cases to look town or get a mislynch
  • Requiring people to actually show traces of a thought process makes the playing field tilted in favour of strong communicators
  • Scum can post "cases" that are fabricated, therefore cases should never be used


My argument boils down to:
  • Playing by "gut" makes it easier for scum to hide, thus lowering the overall skill requirement to win as scum
  • Requiring people to actually show traces of a thought process makes it possible to examine their posts for consistency, which aids both scumhunting and townhunting.
  • Being an effective communicator is an essential, intrinsic part of Mafia (forum or face to face), and endeavouring to remove this perceived "imbalance" is akin to playing billiards using robots to handle the cue because some players are more dextrous and better ball-strikers than others.
  • Scum being able to post cases that are fabricated is literally the entire point of playing Forum Mafia, therefore cases are not alignment-indicative and the essence of the game is creating and penetrating deceptions.
  • If scum (titus in my example) play a really strong game and post plausible-sounding cases, then this is just a player playing well and not a reason to say "cases are scummy". A strong player will do well under any circumstance.
  • If scum (wisdom in my example) play a weak game and don't post any thought processes and still get towncred, then this is a reason to require people to show their thoughts and make arguments instead of simple declarative statements, so that their motivations can be more easily discerned. If people weren't giving towncred for no reason, Wisdom would not have lived as long as they did. Therefore the optimal town play is to require players to show trains of thought and not to simply give towncred for meaningless declarative statements.


I hope that clears up what I'm saying.

And your analogy doesn't really seem to go anywhere


I'm saying that encouraging a dumbed-down style of play where everyone just goes "psyche is p scummy for #404" but never is held accountable for
why
hypothetical post #404 is actually scummy is analogous to the growing anti-intellectualism movement in America and elsewhere in society.

I mean, suppose you have a 10 player game where every single player just does what BROseidon suggests and acts completely illogical, voting entirely on gut instinct. Is there any meaningful way such a game would be different than playing "single player" against 9 bots?
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:43 am

Post by quadz08 »

In post 40, choof wrote:
In post 38, quadz08 wrote: The issue comes when everyone is agreed on a lynch, but people are like "DON'T LYNCH THEM YET LET'S KEEP TALKING TO GET MORE INFORMATION." No - lynch the fucker when 50% of you think they are scum, unless you're waiting for a specific PR to say something or some other mechanic-related thing.


why is it an issue to wait for a defense from someone at L-1

you're misunderstanding, or perhaps I was unclear. It's not that people are waiting for a defense - it's that people are hearing the defense, and then literally saying "cool, we're decided we're going to lynch [X]. Now let's talk about other shit until deadline hits so we don't not-use any of our precious Day Phase time."
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:00 am

Post by Psyche »

Okay. My understanding of your (and I guess Bro's) argument is thus:

Playing by "gut" is better because scum can't fabricate plausible cases to look town or get a mislynch
Requiring people to actually show traces of a thought process makes the playing field tilted in favour of strong communicators
Scum can post "cases" that are fabricated, therefore cases should never be used


I don't think either of us has these positions.

I'm saying that encouraging a dumbed-down style of play where everyone just goes "psyche is p scummy for #404" but never is held accountable for why hypothetical post #404 is actually scummy is analogous to the growing anti-intellectualism movement in America and elsewhere in society.

I mean, suppose you have a 10 player game where every single player just does what BROseidon suggests and acts completely illogical, voting entirely on gut instinct. Is there any meaningful way such a game would be different than playing "single player" against 9 bots?


I think you're picking at a strawman. No gut player refuses to be held accountable for their votes. No gut player solely goes "psyche is p scummy for #404" and stops there, only repeating themselves. No gut player eschews "logic". And no one is saying that people should be encouraged to be gut players.

Case players justify their votes with beliefs about how scum behave and push lynches by explaining and arguing for those beliefs.
Gut players justify their votes with affective reactions and push lynches by getting other players to experience those same reactions.
That's the key difference and there is no black-and-white difference in their validity as approaches to scumhunting.
They both demonstrably work.
And you can discern the townhood of both by examining how convincingly they justify, build, and then organize the town around their reads.
Saying "I have this read" over and over again is not how anyone plays mafia.

When someone has a gut read and you tell them to pretend that it's not a gut read so that you can read them more easily (which is what your anti-gut position does), you're telling them to lie about the basis of their read and hoping to pull out a idea of their alliance from it. I think that's really silly.

Here's my position:
The idea that players are undiscernable black boxes when they justify their votes with a gut read is false. The idea that players are miles better scumhunters when they use what you characterize as logic to motivate their votes is false. The idea that players (like titus) should accrue townreads because they post plausible-sounding cases from time to time is also false. The idea that gut readers cannot coherently communicate and advocate for the wagons they lead is false. The idea that people who predominantly use gut reads are "inane" and people who don't are superior players - well that's just in bad taste.

I don't think we should move to a primarily case or gut based method. Everyone should just try to figure it out for themselves.
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:08 am

Post by GreyICE »

In post 46, Muffin wrote:I'm saying that encouraging a dumbed-down style of play where everyone just goes "psyche is p scummy for #404" but never is held accountable for why hypothetical post #404 is actually scummy is analogous to the growing anti-intellectualism movement in America and elsewhere in society.

I have a nominee for the most pretentious post in the history of mafiascum.
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