New Normal Guidelines - April 2017 update!

[Ether]

I've never heard of limited-shot bulletproofs being notified. There's debate?

In theory I wouldn't have a problem with having it both ways, though I think that goes against our standard "standards for everything" policy.

[Cheery Dog]

I personally wouldn't even tell an unlimited-shot.

[vonflare]

I personally wouldn't even tell an unlimited-shot.

You aren't supposed to.

[Cheery Dog]

I should read entire posts.

[BBmolla]

Any way we can standardize what results a follower/voyeur gets for all normal roles?

[Ether]

We have.

I don't really like the solution, because it falls apart in the face of themed games*, but that is the standard.

*

See here for what I wanted, except move Rolestopper to Protection because I thought it was like a gaoler at the time for some reason.

[SleepyKrew]

Wait a second.
Doesn't the thing at the bottom (that says commuters are immune RBers) contradict the Golden Rule?

[Ether]

To be honest I don't really understand the Golden Rule part. But it seems pretty clear from the list that the commuter making itself immune to everything (including the roleblock) takes priority.

[callforjudgement]

Being immune to roleblocks (in addition to everything else) is part of being a Commuter. Otherwise, there'd be a conflict (Commute makes you immune to Roleblocker action, Roleblock prevents Commuter taking an action) which would be resolved via the list, due to the Golden Rule not giving a clear result in that case.

@Ether: Don't make me shout at you in bolded underlined allcaps font like I normally do when someone misunderstands NAR. Oh bleh, I'm going to have to do it anyway.

IN NAR, WHEN IT APPLIES, THE GOLDEN RULE IS THE

ONLY

THING THAT DETERMINES ACTION RESOLUTION.

THE LIST

ONLY

APPLIES WHEN NAR FAILS TO PRODUCE A CONSISTENT RESULT.

(In 99% of cases, the List will never come up in any given game. Do not resort to it unless you have no other choice.)

I'm actually tempted to make my own action resolution scheme that gives the same results in all simple cases, but doesn't need a special case like the List to resolve conflicts. (Especially because the List doesn't actually work for its intended purpose; the most common conflict is RB vs. JK and the List has no opinion on that either.)

[Ether]

I get this feeling that the Golden Rule is saying in big words something that most people just do instinctively.

I could be missing something, though.

[callforjudgement]

Well yes, the Golden Rule is meant to produce the intuitive result (it's just spelled out in case people disagree as to what the intuitive result is). That's why it's called "natural" action resolution.

[mastin2]

but if those two interpretations were normalized, the mod could get around the rule by giving an unlimited-shot BP a rediculous number of x-shot vests (e.g. You are a 999999-shot bulletproof townie)

That's why we have the Normal Review Group who takes poorly to Rules Lawyering.

I've never heard of limited-shot bulletproofs being notified. There's debate?

Yes. More or less:
An x-shot vig is informed how many shots they have left.
An x-shot commuter is informed of how many shots they have left.
An x-shot hider is informed of how many shots they have left.
An x-shot doctor is informed of how many shots they have left.
An x-shot cop is informed of how many shots they have left.

And so on and so forth, so the argument goes why wouldn't an x-shot bulletproof be informed of how many shots they have left when literally every other X-shot role does.

[N]

Because there's a difference between passive and active? (I'm assuming by "is told how many shots left" you mean "is able to do simple subtraction" for all your other examples.)

[FakeGod]

oh oh oh

but what about X-shot Fruit Vendors?

it would make sense that he knows how many fruits he has left yes?

[N]

well done reinoe

[pisskop]

I've never heard of limited-shot bulletproofs being notified. There's debate?

Yes. More or less:
An x-shot vig is informed how many shots they have left.
An x-shot commuter is informed of how many shots they have left.
An x-shot hider is informed of how many shots they have left.
An x-shot doctor is informed of how many shots they have left.
An x-shot cop is informed of how many shots they have left.

And so on and so forth, so the argument goes why wouldn't an x-shot bulletproof be informed of how many shots they have left when literally every other X-shot role does.

those are all active powers though. assuming you dont actively use your xshot vest they dont compare. The information is of a different caliber.

[Cheery Dog]

Should I be telling my X-Shot Miller how many they have left?

[Ether]

Yes, but only if you also tell it how many shots the bulletproof has left.

[callforjudgement]

I wouldn't expect an X-Shot Miller to know they'd been investigated (which is presumably what'd use the shot).

[Sméagol]

As far as I understand, a ninja tracker is not allowed right? Why is that? Can't see why you shouldn't have it as an option if you allow mafia watchers (or just having it as a modifier option for town in general).

And a question: is backups of backups a thing? The wiki doesn't mention anything about it.

[callforjudgement]

I believe backup backups are technically allowed by the rules, but I'd probably veto them anyway for being excessively sillly.

[Sméagol]

It was just a hypothetical question when I posted it.. I think "being excessive" is a balance issue, and something that can be adressed. I get why you don't want a straight cop / backup cop / backup backup cop in one game, but there are so many other possibilities when you play around with this. Like I said, it was hypothetical when I posted that question, but I built a set-up around it after that.
If it's not allowed, too bad, I'll save it for themes, if it is, then one thing must be clarified.. What exactly triggers them. Personally I'd not only trigger backup backups on death of the backup, but also on when the backup gets triggered and becomes the primary role.

Edit:

I was thinking about this after reading the setup review for the Bees mini, which has 2 backups without a primary role. I believe in the review there was a primary role at one point, which raised the question which one should be triggered.. Which got me thinking there's an easy solution for that.

[callforjudgement]

A backup backup would become a regular backup if the backup died. If the original role was also dead, they'd then take over the original role at that point (otherwise they'd have to wait for the original role to die).

I'd rule it that if the primary role died with two backups, both would be triggered. I'm not sure if there's an "official" ruling on this.

Both these rulings work nicely because it means that a backup player can always know (by looking at flips) whether they've been triggered, without the mod needing to tell them.

[N]

new update! just the one thing this time!

Update 9 November

For any games entering review from this point forward, Vigilantes can only be town-aligned.

[Marquis]

it's still the 8th over here, can i go ahead with my announced mafia vig plan