New Normal Guidelines - May 2016 update!

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pisskop
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Post Post #275  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:25 pm

Thats not what they said.

Like daytalk, the preence of framers/godfather/etal would have to be announced before hand.

So it would be known they were present but not what any other roles were or if they were the even a whole role.
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Post Post #276  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:26 pm

Correct. The rest of the setup could be closed if we pass this, it'd only be redlisted roles that would have to be announced.
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Post Post #277  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:18 pm

I'm fine with announcing all cop roles can be fucked with. It's a disclosure I always do if there's possible cop fuckery.
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Post Post #278  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:26 pm

It'd be pretty helpful for the NRG to get feedback about redlisting. There are three main options, which look like this:

1) All scum roles that interfere with investigative results are banned outright. As of N's change (which is April 1 so perhaps not 100% believable, but he at least said it was genuine), this is pretty much the current situation (Ninja is still a little uncertain).
2) A moderator can include a disclaimer in their setup that investigative results can potentially be interfered with via a list of scum roles (specifying the roles, e.g. "Lawyer, Framer, Tailor, Godfather"). With the disclaimer, the listed roles become legal for use in the setup, and might or might not exist.
3) A moderator can include scum roles that interfere with investigative results. If they do, all such roles must be listed as a disclaimer in the setup. This guarantees that the roles will exist in the game. Thus, town know explicitly which roles they have to play around.

Option 3 is gaining traction within the NRG but is far from decided on, so your feedback could make a difference!
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Post Post #279  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:05 pm

I REALLY like #2 best. I feel like #3 is a severe disadvantage to scum and defeats an essential purpose to the roles in question, and is the one I'm least in favor of. I can live with #1, but banning the godfather strengthens the cop considerably since all his results can now be believed (which, in the NRG's defense, sounds like their motivation for banning GF in the first place). That leaves the ascetic as the only normal role that can effectively counter it.
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Post Post #280  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:15 pm

There are so many weakened variation of both watcher/tracker and cop that this is kind of asking modders to stop using cop.

Others have said that cop is generally an OP/unnesscessary role and I agree, but killing its hard counter to make it stronger is counterintuitive.
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Post Post #281  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:29 pm

Yeah I think the inherent problem is with the Cop tbh
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Post Post #282  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:26 pm

Option 2 is completely pointless, in my eyes. It's what we had before when godfathers were whitelisted, and before that when framers were whitelisted, but the threat of a POSSIBLE godfather doesn't affect people's play.

The essential purpose of godfathers and so on was never to feed false results to cops. It was to alter the meta so that cops' results are taken with a grain of salt. Godfathers failed to do this, and that's why they were judged as more trouble than they're worth in the end.

I do want the meta to have counters to cops, lots of them, more of them than currently exist. Personally, I'd love to see some games with cops that know for a fact that there are tailors out there to trip them up. That would be a fun counter.
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Post Post #283  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:06 pm

Ninja should stay whitelisted imo.

I think Godfather shouldn't be explicitly not normal (in fact, nor do I think insane cops should be either provided one knows its a possibility).
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Post Post #284  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:59 pm

Ninja, Insane Cop, Miller, and Godfather should be whitelisted imo.

Framer should generally come with a warning.

Paranoid/Naive cop should stay blacklisted.
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Post Post #285  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:00 pm

too much work for normals?


part of being normal is simplicity and knowing exactly what is and isnt normal. splitting cop alignments messes with that
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Post Post #286  (ISO)  » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:17 pm

In post 285, pisskop wrote:too much work for normals?


part of being normal is simplicity and knowing exactly what is and isnt normal. splitting cop alignments messes with that


I'm with pisskop. I frankly don't understand the obsession with shoe horning cop sanities into normals anyway.
.

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Post Post #287  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:58 am

...Yeah. I'm in favor of leaving non-sane cop explicitly not normal.
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Post Post #288  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:28 pm

I think insane cop should be saved for non-normals and be given like Flower Investigator with Daffodil / Tulip results where the cop doesn't know which is which until later in the game.

It's better than having all cops have to consider their sanity for a role meant to be extremely simple and straightforward.
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Post Post #289  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:55 pm

I like the name Boolean Cop for that. (Reference.)

I'm not a huge fan of it, though. It's not terrible, but...if it dies early, it's useless, and if it survives a long time, it's just as strong as a normal cop. I feel like that's the opposite of a good nerf?

Anyway, having sanities in normal games doesn't really seem worth it to me. It's trickier to announce than mafia-aligned roles would be.
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Post Post #290  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:58 pm

thats better served as a gunsmith or other nonalignment cop. Or if the scum can use active powers to alter the result. As nonnormal
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Post Post #291  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:00 pm

Huh?
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Post Post #292  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:05 pm

Gunsmiths or vanilla cops or others that recieve non-alignment results.

Or for cops in games wherein scum can use active powers to alter the results. 'framers' or 'painters'
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Post Post #293  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:08 pm

Right. What about them?
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Post Post #294  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:18 pm

Okay then, but I still stand with that Ninja should stay whitelisted, and by extension, so should Godfather.
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Post Post #295  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:19 pm

In post 293, Ether wrote:Right. What about them?

no wai

. . .

If youre going to give results to an invesitgator through a cipher or other code then it shouldnt be a cop unless the scum can fiddle with the results through active powers.
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Post Post #296  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:23 pm

Er...why not? How does one of those things connect to the other?
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Post Post #297  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:25 pm

Im expressing my opinion on the matter
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Post Post #298  (ISO)  » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:51 pm

Why is a Godfather blacklisted, but the Miller isn't?
I don't feel the need to have either blacklisted, but this seems inconsistent to me.
Just want to know why, don't want Millers blacklisted as well, I'd like to have the option to use them.
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Post Post #299  (ISO)  » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:14 pm

In post 298, Sméagol wrote:Why is a Godfather blacklisted, but the Miller isn't?
I don't feel the need to have either blacklisted, but this seems inconsistent to me.

Good point.
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