"New" Replacement Order Rule

[Majiffy]

I selectively replace so that I don't play as scum.

This is why it's douchey.

Part of playing the game is getting a role that might not be your ideal. The moment people start picking and choosing is the moment it stops being a fun game.

[Oversoul]

It doesn't guarantee that I will be right.

[Majiffy]

No, but it still opens up a whole book of worms that has already been discussed.

[FakeGod]

The moment people start picking and choosing is the moment it stops being a fun game.

I think when you say the word "fun", you actually meant to type the word "fair".

While an argument can be made that it may be more "fair", I fail to see how you can say it will be "fun" for the player who's replacing into a slot he doesn't want to play.

[Majiffy]

Because once you take fairness out of the game it becomes not fun.

Just like when you realize you can fly through 90% of the levels in Super Mario World.

[Majiffy]

Unless you want to play a bunch of broken open setups, then I guess have a go. But I think most would probably disagree with you.

[Oversoul]

I don't see how it exactly hurts anything. It isn't like I am perfect at reading the slots I am replacing into.

[Majiffy]

And if you have 99% accuracy? 98%? How many grains of sand do you remove from the pile before it is no longer a pile?
Do we empirically qualify this for each player? How so?
And wouldn't this be unfair for the players with a penchant for reading accurately? Would players start nerfing their townplay to circumvent this?




Or we could just stop whining about how we want to choose our slots.

[Oversoul]

I wasn't whining about not being able to choose my slot, or wanting to choose my slot. I was giving my anecdote on what I do when I replace.

Don't have to be so philosophical.

[Majiffy]

I think you're either being dishonest with yourself or you've completely lost the plot of what's going on in this thread.

I have literally quoted you saying that you selectively choose which slots you replace in for to minimize your chance of getting scum.

[Plotinus]

My accuracy at reading is less than random chance currently (in my completed games, 100% of the slots I was scumreading were town). So I guess that's where my position on this comes from. If I were to try to do this reading before signing up thing, the chance that I'd get what I was hoping for is about the same as if I replaced in without reading anything at all, possibly a bit worse. So why bother.

Maybe if you're some sort of scumhunting god and it's widely known that you prefer one kind of slot over another then it'll be a trust tell and that's bad.

But based on the way I play games that I'm actually good at, I think by the time I turn into a scumhunting God, if I were selectively replacing, I'd be selectively replacing into whatever looks most difficult (not based on alignment of the slot but maybe based on how many votes were already against them (trying to avert a mislynch) or based on how many players I didn't know well (make scumhunting harder) or based on the number of pages (depending on which stage of the game I find harder), or maybe selectively replacing in at LYLO or whatever.

[Oversoul]

I think you're either being dishonest with yourself or you've completely lost the plot of what's going on in this thread.

I have literally quoted you saying that you selectively choose which slots you replace in for to minimize your chance of getting scum.

Yes. But I'm not whining about it. That's what I disagree with.
I figure if I am going to read a behemoth thread when replacing in, I might as well not hate my life with a scum role.

[Majiffy]

I wasn't distinctly pointing at you and saying you were whining. It was a broad statement. Stop taking things so personally.

That being said, you're skirting the line with your entitlement approach.

[Muffin]

Why do you care, majiffy?

[Oversoul]

I wasn't distinctly pointing at you and saying you were whining. It was a broad statement. Stop taking things so personally.

That being said, you're skirting the line with your entitlement approach.

I don't agree that it is bringing in outside influences into the game if I read games I may potentially replace into.
If anything that SHOULD be the protocol, regardless of alignment.

[Majiffy]

Why do you care, majiffy?

Do you have a problem with me caring?

I wasn't distinctly pointing at you and saying you were whining. It was a broad statement. Stop taking things so personally.

That being said, you're skirting the line with your entitlement approach.

I don't agree that it is bringing in outside influences into the game if I read games I may potentially replace into.
If anything that SHOULD be the protocol, regardless of alignment.

In theory, sure. It's relatively unenforceable and impossible for players to know what games you're keeping up with that you aren't a part of.

But if you get known for having even slightly-better-than-average reads with regards to games you aren't involved in, and you become known for replacing in for only slots you read as town, it can become problematic. I certainly hope that is readily apparent to you.

[Oversoul]

ut if you get known for having even slightly-better-than-average reads with regards to games you aren't involved in, and you become known for replacing in for only slots you read as town, it can become problematic. I certainly hope that is readily apparent to you.

Sure, but the fact that they are reads is my main point. That isn't 100%. Ever.

Trust tells ARE 100%. When NS ONLY hammers himself as a certain alignment, that is a trust tell. When Pooky does the Pooky Promise ONLY as a certain alignment, that is a trust tell.

Reads are more tricky. They are not entirely housed within the control of the player replacing in like the hammer/Pooky Promise. They deal with a lot of uncertainty. Sure, you could say that a player becomes proficient at reading before replacing in, but that doesn't matter.

I could say "I will replace into this game", get the PM, and still post the same opinions WHETHER OR NOT I HAVE THE PM. That is why I don't see it as a big deal. If I am already capable of playing at this level that makes it dangerous for me to read games before replacing in, I would be able to post those same exact reads after I get the PM. Unless you're saying that receiving a scum role PM de facto changes a person's reads/interactions? Which again, if I was playing at such a level that this would be an issue, that point is moot.

[Majiffy]

ut if you get known for having even slightly-better-than-average reads with regards to games you aren't involved in, and you become known for replacing in for only slots you read as town, it can become problematic. I certainly hope that is readily apparent to you.

Sure, but the fact that they are reads is my main point. That isn't 100%. Ever.

Holy fucking fuck we've been over this fucking shit nipples.

Trust tells ARE 100%. When NS ONLY hammers himself as a certain alignment, that is a trust tell. When Pooky does the Pooky Promise ONLY as a certain alignment, that is a trust tell.

I'm not talking about trust tells. And trust tells only work in the way you describe them until the first time you break personal meta to win as a scum game. In which case, relying on a "trust tell" because "trust tell" is fucking ridiculously stupid, because that person can roll scum and use that against you.

Sure, you could say that a player becomes proficient at reading before replacing in, but that doesn't matter.

Yes...

yes it does.

It is literally

the entire conversation going on here.

I could say "I will replace into this game", get the PM, and still post the same opinions WHETHER OR NOT I HAVE THE PM. That is why I don't see it as a big deal.

Player A is exceptionally good at reading players when removed from the game.
Player A very strongly prefers to play as a certain alignment.
Player A offers to sub into a game.

It can be reasonably assumed that a high majority of the time, given the above, that the subbed slot will be the preferred alignment of Player A.

Unless you're saying that receiving a scum role PM de facto changes a person's reads/interactions?

Sometimes. I've replaced in as scum and found out all my scumreads were my partners. I was pissed, and kind of surprised no one was scumreading any of them.

Which again, if I was playing at such a level that this would be an issue, that point is moot.

You keep disregarding

literally the entire conversation

because

you want to.

Stop, and argue your points, instead of stating opinion like fact and ending discussion.

[Oversoul]

My point is that regardless of your alignment you should be playing the towniest game you can. That is the goal of every alignment and role. A player that is this good will be able to do that any point in play. Before PM is received or after it is received. So reading before or after doesn't change their reads.

[Bicephalous Bob]

The point is that most people have trouble pretending to scumhunt while catching up if they already know who their partners are.

[zMuffinMan]

We call those people "newbies"

[Kagami]

Jiffy, I think you're missing something important. This rule doesn't prevent players from choosing their slot, it ensures that they get the slot they want. It even allows them not to appear "douchey" in the process.

If I want to replace into a specific slot, I can just wait until it is the oldest replace before signing up to replace. Without the rule, there's the possibility that the mod sticks me in a slot I don't want (that isn't the oldest one), or that the mod fills the slot I want out of order.

The better rule is to simply give the mod discretion, which also resolves the problem that arises when a more urgently needed replace is not the oldest. Mods can always just say no if a player will only replace in if he/she get a specific slot.

[Muffin]

Why do you care, majiffy?

Do you have a problem with me caring?

You didn't answer the question. Your replies read like you're getting super worked up.

Why get so emotionally invested in a relatively minor policy on a site you are not allowed to play? Are you playing under an alt in contravention of your permaban?

[Soft-spoken]

i dont think he has the time to play games under an alt on this site while posting in other forums on this site and playing epicmafia games lol.

i think he brings a legitimate point to the table. if a good scum-hunter replaces into slots that he thinks are town all the time, he can become auto-town to the game he replaced into and be insta-sheeped. this would simply be optimal play if you knew that the player only likes to replace into slots that he thinks are town, and knew that the player is an efficient scum-hunter.

[SilverWolf]

OK, I always thought a person replacing in had to take the oldest spot open if there is more than one. I thought that was pretty much a rule. I had no idea mods got to pick and choose or players got to pick and choose. That doesn't seem right to me at all.

However, reading your slot before replacing in is perfectly fair because all the other players have been playing the game since the beginning and should have reads and so forth figured out so it's only fair the replacement gets to read up before replacing in. If they decide after reading, they don't want to go into a game they are going to be unhappy in, what's the big deal? It's better for the game, the players, and the mod that someone does not replace in where they'll be unhappy.