Harsher Penalties for Replacing Out Of Large Games

[Cerberus v666]

We know that your solution isn't the right one and that's good enough for me re: this thread.

Do you have some sort of empirical evidence you can point me to that demonstrates my suggestion isn't the right one?

[chamber]

Go through your recent games with too many replacements and say how many you think would be deterred by your proposed punishment.

[kuribo]

What I'm saying is you're being really persistent in ignoring a lot of people who have been here longer than you saying "No really dude we know what we're talking about this isn't the first time it's come up."

That argument would only be relevant if it had been tried before and it didn't work. Saying that you've had this discussion before does not make your argument stronger, it simply means that it wasn't resolved in the past, and it continues to be a problem, which would seem to indicate that the current strategy for dealing with it isn't working in a fashion satisfactory to at least some portion of the community.

Let's try this exercise.

Please answer the following questions as truthfully as possible.

1. What will you be doing exactly four months from today?

2. Can you assure me that your current health will remain the same?

3. Can you asssure me that all of your relatives will remain healthy for the next four months?

5. Do you have a job? Are you 100% sure that your working hours will remain exactly the same for four months?

6. Are you in a relationship? Can you assure me that absolutely nothing will go wrong in that relationship for four months?

7. Do you have a home? Utilities? Can you assure me that absolutely nothing will interfere with that for the next four months?

8. Are you 100% sure that no one on the site hates you?

9. Are you 100% sure that you won't have personality conflicts with anyone?

Please answer completely and honestly

[Ythan]

We know that your solution isn't the right one and that's good enough for me re: this thread.

Do you have some sort of empirical evidence you can point me to that demonstrates my suggestion isn't the right one?

You're wrong!

[talah]

Whoever it was who mentioned three strikes, talah I believe it was: It just irritates me that every game I play in has SEVERAL replace outs by the end. In a large, I can expect a quarter to a third of the players to just drop the game, leading to a very real change in the flow of the game. Is your irritation more important than mine? No, it isn't.

Why yes it was me, hi I'm talah and I'm a community member if not perhaps the most prestigious one, nor the most senior.

You seem to be making some assumptions regarding your own irritation vs mine. I'm saying it irritates me when people here decide that this place is a crucible for experimenting or applying shitty penalties to people who come here to interact in whatever ways they do. There are ways that people *don't* interact here which pretty much go to the same rules you'd apply to face-to-face interactions. And if folks cross that line then there are already (like I said I think in certain cases overly) harsh penalties that are applied. And they're made at the discretion of the mods, and admin, with at least some due diligence and I'm not going into it further.

But the games I've participated in, sure there have been replacements. Every single game iirc. I don't judge because I don't know the circumstances. I haven't sat down with each of them and I have no desire to. I trust that they're not being dicks and I trust that if they are then eventually they'll just head off due to self-attrition.

So the difference between your irritation and my own at replacements - is that you'd like to see them punished without caring what the reason is. And I don't want to see them punished because I don't have the resources nor desire to find out what the reason is. It's not that I don't care, it's that I have faith that most people want to do the right thing.

You can argue this kind of broad punishment any way and it always comes down to the "If you have nothing to hide" paradox.

[Antihero]

We know that your solution isn't the right one and that's good enough for me re: this thread.

Do you have some sort of empirical evidence you can point me to that demonstrates my suggestion isn't the right one?

burden of proof's in the wrong place here

it's up the person suggesting the change to prove that the change would make things better. it's not up to everyone else to prove otherwise.

[Cerberus v666]

I agree with that antihero, but he's not actually engaging about it, he's just saying that "we" know it's not correct, without telling me why they know it's not correct. I've given my reasons why I believe this would be helpful, and he dismissed me by attempting to say my argument has been made before, which is insufficient for the reasons I gave above.

Kuribo:

1-7: None of the implied problems that could cause me to replace out of a game would be ones where I'd want to sign up for a new game before the current day phase is even over. However, I'm in a stable enough situation in my life that none of those things are potentially concerns, other than health, simply because I can't predict when I may be struck by a vehicle or something like that.
8: doesn't matter to me if someone hates me, my character is such that I'll just continue to do what I'm doing and derive as much pleasure as possible from it. I don't let other people detract from the joy in my life.
9: See 8.

[Ythan]

It's pointless to explain it to you because you lack the power to change it for the worse anyway.

[Ythan]

To

keep

explaining it, rather.

[Cerberus v666]

So knowledge is only worth sharing with people who have the power to effect change in the matter being discussed?

[Ythan]

Yes.

[Ythan]

Not that we haven't been trying anyway for the past two or three pages.

[Cerberus v666]

Actually, don't answer that, it's a digression. You've established the value which I should give your opinion because you refuse to elaborate on it in a meaningful fashion, and that's fine.

Pedit: darn, he already answered. Okay. Again it's a digression.

[Ythan]

The fact that you're an obstinate fool is not a digression when pages have been spent trying to satisfy your foolish desires and you do nothing but ask for more.

<3

[Cerberus v666]

(I'm not taking issue with other arguments raised, I'm taking issue with the stance that prior discussion means further discussion is without value, even in the face of evidence that the result of the prior discussion did not resolve the problem. )

[xRECKONERx]

How about "the shit you're suggesting is shit that has been suggested before and everyone is tired of having the same arguments"?

[Cerberus v666]

I'm really not obstinate at all. I just function off facts, and most arguments made rely on suppositions which have neither more nor less value than my own points, in the absence of evidence of the veracity of the statements made.

[Cerberus v666]

How about "the shit you're suggesting is shit that has been suggested before and everyone is tired of having the same arguments"?

Irrelevant. Your lack of desire to engage in the process of discussing a viable solution to the problem doesn't make rhe problem go away, and it doesn't reduce my desire to seek said solution.

[Ythan]

I don't think this belongs in MD anymore.

[Cerberus v666]

I don't think this belongs in MD anymore.

Why not? Kuribo at least is still talking about ths rationally from the other side of the discussion.

[Psyche]

What I'm saying is you're being really persistent in ignoring a lot of people who have been here longer than you saying "No really dude we know what we're talking about this isn't the first time it's come up."

That argument would only be relevant if it had been tried before and it didn't work. Saying that you've had this discussion before does not make your argument stronger, it simply means that it wasn't resolved in the past, and it continues to be a problem, which would seem to indicate that the current strategy for dealing with it isn't working in a fashion satisfactory to at least some portion of the community.

Let's try this exercise.

Please answer the following questions as truthfully as possible.

1. What will you be doing exactly four months from today?

2. Can you assure me that your current health will remain the same?

3. Can you asssure me that all of your relatives will remain healthy for the next four months?

5. Do you have a job? Are you 100% sure that your working hours will remain exactly the same for four months?

6. Are you in a relationship? Can you assure me that absolutely nothing will go wrong in that relationship for four months?

7. Do you have a home? Utilities? Can you assure me that absolutely nothing will interfere with that for the next four months?

8. Are you 100% sure that no one on the site hates you?

9. Are you 100% sure that you won't have personality conflicts with anyone?

Please answer completely and honestly

still missing the point

[Sajin]

Comparing Mafia to League--- which is widely known for having one of the most vitriolic and toxic communities in online gaming--- is probably not going to make the point you're trying to make. If any online game shows what happens when a user base is devoid of empathy, it's LoL.

Last I checked, people didn't WANT this site to become LoL.

This is the nature of queueing solo into a teamplay game with no choice of partners. The reason LoL can become toxic is because a game can be thrown by one poor mistake made by one player.

Mafia games are actually very similar. However, we can see who will be in a game and people can choose to avoid those games thus preventing certain players from playing with certain players. Additionally, we have a replacement system that replaces players that, if we continue the analogy, disconnected from the game or were lagging. Additionally, the replacement system does allow players who don't want to play anymore to replace out by choice which then also allows overall player experience to improve.

Some of these are not really solvable which include the 1 guy who gets caught out by baron to end the game as well as the one town person who refuses to reevaluate entrenched stances and votes to lose the game. Such is the game.

The only penalty that makes some sense is making people replace into games to offset the amount of times they replaced out. The replacement system is really good at what it does and the solution is to increase the people willing to replace into games.

A quicker turnaround time from replacement request to replacee takeover would remove a majority of people's problems with the amount of replacements needed to finish a large theme.

[kuribo]

I don't think this belongs in MD anymore.

Why not? Kuribo at least is still talking about ths rationally from the other side of the discussion.

stop you'll ruin my reputation

[pirate mollie]

personally i am always very grateful for the pple who opt to replace out rather than continue to subject me to their lurking, active lurking, not giving a damn, trolling, death tunneling, being terribad at mafia, cheating, whining about how long the game is, whining about page count, whining about other players especially when it has been pointed out

ad naseum

(psst it doesn't make you look kewl), and all of the horrors that other players can inflict on other players in a game.

it wld make me sad if these pple who are showing what is probably the first good sense that they have experienced all game are punished. what happened to positive reinforcement.

[xRECKONERx]

How about "the shit you're suggesting is shit that has been suggested before and everyone is tired of having the same arguments"?

Irrelevant. Your lack of desire to engage in the process of discussing a viable solution to the problem doesn't make rhe problem go away, and it doesn't reduce my desire to seek said solution.

IT'S NOT A PROBLEM WE'RE NOT THE ARMY PEOPLE AREN'T REQUIRED TO STAY FOREVER

any solution that involves penalizing replacements severely exacerbates the problem rather than fixing anything bc penalties will just make people stay in games long after they should've replaced out and they'll drag down the quality of the game period