Changing signups to hydras

[Accountant]

Why would you sign up for a 13 player game then create a hydra with someone else just to let more than 13 players join???

[wgeurts]

Because you're a nice person, because you enjoy playing with that player, because you deem hydra's to be enjoyable.

[callforjudgement]

Administrative overreach 2016. It may be a dumb rule, but it's the rule we want dammit! (Seriously I don't understand why this decision can't be made by the moderator running the game.)

From my point of view, the set of players in the game is mostly a listmod decision, that administrators have some input into (the ability to reject players, etc.) but aren't the person mostly in charge of it. (This is because listmods run the queue.)

Consider the following:

Let me make your example a little stronger:

• Game is for 13 players.
  
• 17 players /in. Obviously, the first 13 get in while 3 are left out for now until things are finalized.
  
• The playerlist looks like this: [A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M] {N, O, P, Q}.
  
• Q joins a hydra with F.
  
• J /outs.
  
• Because the rule exists:
  • The playerlist is now: [A, B, C, D, E, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, O] {P, FQ}.
    
  • If, during the game, one player flakes, P should be the next in line to get a replacement slot, if both P and Q want it.
• But if the rule did not exist:
  • The playerlist is now: [A, B, C, D, E, FQ, G, H, I, K, L, M, N] {O, P}
    
  • If F flakes, then Q will replace in for FQ. As a result, both O and P will be missing a slot in the game; Q will have the slot instead.

I can see the argument that P doesn't deserve the slot in this situation, but I don't see that you can make the same argument for O. After all, they were in the first 15 to sign up, and two players have flaked. Q isn't adding an extra slot in this situation because the hydra has half-flaked.

One way to fix this would be to, if either head of a hydra becomes inactive, replace the entire hydra rather than just the head that flaked. (This is arguably a good idea for other reasons too, in that it would avoid the situation where both heads get close to flaking because they expect the other to pick up the slack.) The current rule also fixes it, a different (but apparently unpopular) way.

[zMuffinMan]

why are the examples ignoring the fact that in the scenario where the rule is in place, F doesn't choose to hydra (because of the rule) and all of O P Q miss out...?

that doesn't strengthen the example at all, it just adds an extra player that doesn't change the actual point

literally all it's doing is punishing a player for no good reason. what is the point in punishing Q (or P in the original example)? because it's not fair that P and O (or just O in the original example) miss out? why? they miss out anyway...

[BNL]

I think there might be some confusion as to what is going on:

The new rule in the queue is that when two people hydra they get pushed back to the end.
The old rule was that they take slot the first head originally occupied.
My proposed rule is that they take the last head occupied.

Nevertheless, there is one case the current rules have that hasn't been covered yet: If A and B hydra in that scenario with the new rules (if I'm understanding them correctly), they get bumped to the end. Someone explain how this could

possibly

be the right thing to do.

[callforjudgement]

why are the examples ignoring the fact that in the scenario where the rule is in place, F doesn't choose to hydra (because of the rule) and all of O P Q miss out...?

In my example, if F chooses not to hydra, O gets the slot after F flakes, leaving us with [A, B, C, D, E, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, O] {P, Q}.
Compare this to the situation without the rule: [A, B, C, D, E, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, Q] {O, P}

No more players have got to play than in the situation where the rule exists (because the hydra wasn't replaced when one of its heads flaked, whereas an empty slot would have been, thus no more players were gained). But somehow, Q has managed to end up in the game rather than O.

[zMuffinMan]

so you came up with a scenario that only makes sense if f is going to flake... i mean i suppose that's a reason someone might want to hydra but i don't think it's anywhere near the most common reasons

realistically f chooses to not hydra with the current rule and O doesn't get the slot, though...

and your edge case isn't exactly black and white in terms of what is or isn't fair in that scenario

[Persivul]

It's almost like a 13-player game should have 13 players in it.


But more seriously, to me this looks like: "Plan your hydra-ness before you /in. If the game fills up, and you try to hydra after that, you're being a nuisance."

who exactly is it being a nuisance to?

Me for one. I don't sign up for a game if there's more than one hydra. I accept that I can't control who's signing up after me. But, if single people ahead of me start changing to hydras, I'll /out if I notice it in time, or replace out if I don't notice it before game starts. And at that point, it's a nuisance for everyone. So, yeah: plan your hydraness before you /in. Even saying "/in hydra TBD" is fine.

[pirate mollie]

It's almost like a 13-player game should have 13 players in it.


But more seriously, to me this looks like: "Plan your hydra-ness before you /in. If the game fills up, and you try to hydra after that, you're being a nuisance."

who exactly is it being a nuisance to?

Me for one. I don't sign up for a game if there's more than one hydra. I accept that I can't control who's signing up after me. But, if single people ahead of me start changing to hydras, I'll /out if I notice it in time, or replace out if I don't notice it before game starts. And at that point, it's a nuisance for everyone. So, yeah: plan your hydraness before you /in. Even saying "/in hydra TBD" is fine.

there is a solution to this: stay in normals or only join games where there is a no-hydra rule.

simple.

and the new rule does not effect who signs up after you so really this is not a rule that particularly addresses your issue with hydras except laterally. cos you still have to check the game and a bunch of hydras can sign up after you.

I feel like the rule is meant to fix a largely nonexistent problem and I agree this shld be a game mods decision not a list mod thing.

[Persivul]

You know what's even simpler? Doing absolutely nothing. And that's what this rule amounts to. Sign up - and then don't make changes. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

[Zachrulez]

You know what's even simpler? Doing absolutely nothing. And that's what this rule amounts to. Sign up - and then don't make changes. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Well no, the list mods have to actively monitor the signups of a game for changes and actively change the player order if someone changes to a hydra. That doesn't sound simpler at all.

What you're probably going to see is these changes get brought to the moderator to be applied before the game starts in such a way that the list mod doesn't find out about it in order to bump them off.

[Katsuki]

Then there's this one.

Order of Players:

Players will be added to a game's sign-up list in the order in which they have signed up, first come first served. If a pre-/in player fails to confirm in time, their slot will be given to the next player in line. Players who sign up for a game but then decide to change their status to a hydra will be treated as if they /outed a game and then signed back up as that hydra, even if doing so would bump that player from the game. This is to prevent players from being able to jump the line in a full or nearly full game.

I always confirm pre-ins myself, and then post the ins on behalf of the players who confirmed their pre-in to me. What was wrong with that system? I honestly don't know.

+1

I disagree completely with the hydra rule but this pre-in rule is absolutely absurd.

[Persivul]

Well no, the list mods have to actively monitor the signups of a game for changes and actively change the player order if someone changes to a hydra. That doesn't sound simpler at all.

Not if people don't change to hydras.

[TheWayItEnds]

just reject every /in for the last spot of your game until everyone has confirmed their prein and created hydras and shit.

then go back and "under further review ive decided to accept this in"

letter and not spirit.

[hiplop]

Yeah both of these feel like things listmods should not be governing in all honesty

[wgeurts]

just reject every /in for the last spot of your game until everyone has confirmed their prein and created hydras and shit.

then go back and "under further review ive decided to accept this in"

letter and not spirit.

There's an easier way which also avoids the listmods denying your denies, just tell the player that wants to hydra not to leave their spot in the queue and then let them replace their hydra in once the game starts. But make it very clear to other player's that slot will be a hydra slot.

[TheWayItEnds]

I don't see anything in the rule set that says I have to explain why I'm wotming someone from my game.

[kuribo]

I don't see anything in the rule set that says I have to explain why I'm wotming someone from my game.

Sorry listmod I rejected his in because his avatar is stupid and I rejected the other guy cause his name has too many vowels, better just accept the pre-in I wanted all along

[kuribo]

I agree it's a solution without a problem

[3dicerolling]

I appreciate all the work the moderators do to try to make this site the best it can be.

However, I do not agree with these rules at all. I could elaborate, but I think the point has been hammered in pretty effectively by Wgeurts and many others.

[Bellaphant]

I endorse that product or statement. Unless we can be made aware of the amount of complaints, etc, with the previous system it looks like an unnecessary rule.

[Marquis]

If you guys have questions about or problems with the queue rules, please in the future direct us to discussions like this. I had no idea this thread existed until I found it while searching for another MD entirely. (I don't even egosearch my name anymore either!)

While I fully support game mods being able to curate their playerlists at their discretion, at its core the queue itself has always operated under "first come first serve, unless the game mod rejects your /in". (a bit off topic, but this is one of our core tenets when it comes to people coming to us upset by a mod rejecting their /in - we're not going to override their signup decision even if you don't like the reason.)

The hydra order rule was implemented as a way to better lay out the "first come, first serve" aspect of the queue. We were noticing instances where the line was "being cut" - say for example, when a 16 player large fills with 4 people posting /ins after the cut (who may or may not be put on a replacement list afterward), and someone reaches out to a friend in the game to form a hydra so they can "cut the line", someone else entirely gets invited to a spontaneous hydra by someone who made the cut. And most mods don't care either way to take action as long as their game fills. Usually, it was the players newer to the site, with less connections, or not wanting to be in a hydra who got the short end of the stick. It wasn't implemented to punish players who wanted to hydra, as BNL's suggestion seems like a fine replacement, but rather to keep the intent of the queue system itself intact.

As for the pre-in rule, the Micro and Mini queues have set time limits for games to fill. I remove pre-ins if they don't confirm they're still around and interested (as long as I've known, most mods don't check so themselves - if they do confirm to you, just let me know and it should be fine) so that the slot can open up for enough time to otherwise-unable-to-join players to take it. I get that some just want the game to fill and deal with replacements for those pre-ins later as necessary, but when you join the queue for a game we want to be able to give you a "fresh" game where at least at the start, inactivity factors are limited as much as reasonably possible.

There's a lot I haven't touched on because I'm on mobile and juggling things. Hopefully I was able to explain why we had the rule in place, but I'm open to making (reasonable) changes, and if you guys want further explanation I'll be checking in later.

Also no you don't need to explain why you're WotMing someone, in case that was serious. But when list mods fill games without active game mod input on who to let in, our priorities are people who were there and ready first. Game mods always have the final say on who's in their game, and I guess I'd assumed that was a universally known factor (also something I forgot - there are no official rules against adding heads to a slot midgame but it's just plain out bad modding, and I'm glad others feel the same way). The rules are there for when a default order needs to be put in place and the game mod has no specific preference.

[FakeGod]

These are some strange rules and scenarios that people are apparently concerned with.

[FakeGod]

I accept that I can't control who's signing up after me.

Sounds like you need more WotO in your life.