Changing signups to hydras

[BNL]

(I decided that after some PMs with T-Bone, it's more worth it to bring this here than to continue the PM conversation)

So here's the new queue rule that was added to the Mini Theme and Micro queues recently:

Order of Players:

Players will be added to a game's sign-up list in the order in which they have signed up, first come first served. Players who sign up for a game but then decide to change their status to a hydra will be treated as if they /outed a game and then signed back up...even if doing so would bump that player from the game. This is to prevent players from being able to jump the line in a full or nearly full game.

Which I don't quite understand. Effectively what this does is, say, in the past, when too many people want to join a game, people would form hydras so that more than 13 players can fit into a mini game. Now this is no longer possible.

In which partial explanation is given, say if fifteen players join a mini theme, it'll be unfair on the fourteenth player if the fifteenth player who signed up later gets to play because he can find a hydra partner while the 14th can't. (I completely understand this because it just happened to me for the Micro that just launched)

But the rules go further than that and any instances of changing signups to hydras is punished. So for example, if the first two players hydra, they are removed from the queue, even if the intent is to allow another player into the game (also happened to me)... which is ridiculous (I'm tempted to say that this is my opinion but I can hardly see anyone disagreeing here), and I don't see the logic behind it.

Basically the effect of the new rule is that less people can play in a game, and I don't see the point of this.

My proposal: if two people in the queue change their signups to a hydra, the position is moved to the last of their signups (or to the end if one of them isn't a sign-up). This has the same effect as the current rules except that:
1. If two people already in the game hydra, they still remain in the game and are not pushed out (why should they be anyway?)
2. If a player in the game hydras with the person who just missed signups, they are still in the game. This isn't a problem because jumping the line doesn't happen.

(P.S. I've never played as a hydra before, though I do have one ready for a game)

[zMuffinMan]

it'll be unfair on the fourteenth player if the fifteenth player who signed up later gets to play because he can find a hydra partner while the 14th can't

this seems like an incredibly fucking dumb reason to do this

[Toomai]

It's almost like a 13-player game should have 13 players in it.


But more seriously, to me this looks like: "Plan your hydra-ness before you /in. If the game fills up, and you try to hydra after that, you're being a nuisance."

[TehBrawlGuy]

It's almost like a 13-player game should have 13 players in it.


But more seriously, to me this looks like: "Plan your hydra-ness before you /in. If the game fills up, and you try to hydra after that, you're being a nuisance."

I agree with both of these statements.

[pirate mollie]

It's almost like a 13-player game should have 13 players in it.


But more seriously, to me this looks like: "Plan your hydra-ness before you /in. If the game fills up, and you try to hydra after that, you're being a nuisance."

who exactly is it being a nuisance to?

[zMuffinMan]

i would say i'm interested in the answer to that question but i'm really not expecting much here

[Zachrulez]

If I understand things right, it seems like if you're in a situation where changing to a hydra would bump you it would be more practical to 'replace in' as the hydra after the game starts. Just pointing out how silly this rule is.

[Antihero]

letting hydras replace in is unethical and i don't allow it

[Cabd]

letting hydras replace in is unethical and i don't allow it

[Cabd]

I was actually under the impression that it was a site-wide rule that you can't add heads into a slot.

Having done that in my earlier mafiascum career then realizing how stupidly game-able it was by adding a head known for town play etc etc.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Effectively what this does is, say, in the past, when too many people want to join a game, people would form hydras so that more than 13 players can fit into a mini game. Now this is no longer possible.

That sounds good to me. Hydraing should be taken seriously and not done for such shallow reasons.

[OceanWind]

This is to prevent players from being able to jump the line in a full or nearly full game.

In which partial explanation is given, say if fifteen players join a mini theme, it'll be unfair on the fourteenth player if the fifteenth player who signed up later gets to play because he can find a hydra partner while the 14th can't. (I completely understand this because it just happened to me for the Micro that just launched)

The flaw in the logic here is to compare it with normal lines in the real world without thinking things through.

If you are waiting in line at a store and someone jumps the line, they increase the amount of time you need to finish checking out.

Here, the fifteenth player "jumping the line" makes zero difference to the fourteenth player. Either way, they're not playing.

[OceanWind]

But I'm actually very interested in seeing how anyone argues this point. How is it unfair to the fourteenth player? Do they have some sort of entitlement to play the game? It seems as though the rule is designed to appease some hypothetical resentment that the fourteenth player would have because someone who signed up after them was allowed. But what does it matter? The new player is essentially creating a spot, not taking an existing one.

[wgeurts]

Are mods able to opt-out of this restriction on their players?
As honestly this seems pretty pointless and I'm not sure whether I agree with it.

I mean what makes it even more stupid is that any mod that wants to could easily loophole around it. For instance stating that someone may replace once the game has started in with a hydra pre-game or just denying anyone until said hydra gets a slot.

[Zachrulez]

Are mods able to opt-out of this restriction on their players?
As honestly this seems pretty pointless and I'm not sure whether I agree with it.

I mean what makes it even more stupid is that any mod that wants to could easily loophole around it. For instance stating that someone may replace once the game has started in with a hydra pre-game or just denying anyone until said hydra gets a slot.

Administrative overreach 2016. It may be a dumb rule, but it's the rule we want dammit! (Seriously I don't understand why this decision can't be made by the moderator running the game.)

[Zachrulez]

Then there's this one.

Order of Players:

Players will be added to a game's sign-up list in the order in which they have signed up, first come first served. If a pre-/in player fails to confirm in time, their slot will be given to the next player in line. Players who sign up for a game but then decide to change their status to a hydra will be treated as if they /outed a game and then signed back up as that hydra, even if doing so would bump that player from the game. This is to prevent players from being able to jump the line in a full or nearly full game.

I always confirm pre-ins myself, and then post the ins on behalf of the players who confirmed their pre-in to me. What was wrong with that system? I honestly don't know.

[mastin2]

It's pretty telling that even the people who are strongly anti-hydra think this is a dumb rule.

Maybe that's because it's a dumb rule.

[Zachrulez]

I mean the rule refers to people jumping the line. But I don't understand where the line jumping is taking place. The hydra is taking a spot in line that one of the people in the hydra already has isn't it? Changing that just feels like it's a rule meant to be openly hostile to hydras.

[Toomai]

I mean the rule refers to people jumping the line. But I don't understand where the line jumping is taking place. The hydra is taking a spot in line that one of the people in the hydra already has isn't it? Changing that just feels like it's a rule meant to be openly hostile to hydras.

Consider the following:

• Game is for 13 players.
  
• 16 players /in. Obviously, the first 13 get in while 3 are left out for now until things are finalized.
  
• The playerlist looks like this: [A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M] {N, O, P}
  
• P joins a hydra with F.
  
• J /outs.
  
• Because the rule exists:
  • The playerlist is now: [A, B, C, D, E, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, O] {FP}
• But if the rule did not exist:
  • The playerlist is now: [A, B, C, D, E, FP, G, H, I, K, L, M, N] {O}
    
  • Note how O /inned before P, but because P joined a hydra with someone already /in, P jumped the line.

All the rule is really saying is "The position of an inpromptu hydra in signups matches the position of its

latest

head, not its

earliest

head."

[OceanWind]

That puts O in the game at F's expense. F signed up before O. Why should he get kicked out?

[Zachrulez]

That puts O in the game at F's expense. F signed up before O. Why should he get kicked out?

Because making an improtu hydra is clearly an improper thing to do. (I guess?)

Also the game mod should make the call as to who they favor getting the spots in situations like that, not the list mod.

I've played in games where players have replaced in as hydras from originally being individual players. (With such action being allowed.) There are moderators that will allow this too. This rule is inviting a mess that it doesn't need to invite.

[zMuffinMan]

er, toomai's scenario is fucking stupid because in the scenario where f has to miss out to hydra with p, he just doesn't... Meaning the comparison is just O and P missing out vs just O

and no, this isn't unfair... O misses out either way anyway, so all you're actually doing is punishing P in the first scenario

[Toomai]

I mean I wasn't trying to make a judgement as to whether it's a good rule, I just constructed a situation that seems to explain the "jumping the line" remark. Though frankly it's how things would work from a raw technical perspective (e.g. automated signups^TM); A /ins, B wants to hydra, and in order to do that A must /out so that AB can /in.

But really, as long as the mods are on the ball and signups are closed/the game begins the instant the game fills, I don't see how this rule can have much of a practical effect. (insert a few billion grains of salt)

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think anyone here needed an explanation about what the "jumping the line" thing means, the point is that O misses out in every scenario but P doesn't have to so, if anything, the current rule is unfair

[wgeurts]

Marquis' rule is even worse. I have had multiple times where players didn't confirm in-thread after a pre-in but actually played the game. I've don't that myself in fact. And once again it can easily be loopholed.

Both these rules seem abitrary and really feel like they should be decisions made by a game's moderator, not a listmod.

If someone pre-ins to a game of mine and they forget to say that in-thread then I would do what I can to have them play. As far as I'm concerned if someone pre-ins to a game and they don't out before it goes it sign ups (which I notify players of shortly before it has) then they're in my game.

And yes the listmods in question probably are going to dislike gaming the system however this really isn't a decision they should be making.