Order of Operations

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Order of Operations

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:56 am

Post by Firebringer »

So okay this is just to talk about something that is in behind the scenes in mafia games but is never really talked about much (as far as I am aware of I haven't seen a talk about order of operations).

So 99% of games on the site use NAR.

When I first started playing mafia online, it was through sc2mod and we had a different operations like this:
The SC2Mod Operations

To add more to this when I played forum mafia there, all setups are normally semi open. That is a setup is proposed a person reviews and players can ask questions about it and then its played with it, a order of operations for the roles that are in the game is put in. This is order for just this game.

So I am wondering why don't we have more hosts who tamper with the order here?

Too add onto this rambling on talking about more complex role/operations. I have a friend who created (I can't find if he posted it) a completely more complicated version of a order of operations where each role was expanded to its function being a "Visiting" or "Targeting" a player. So for instance a Tracker might see a person
visiting
but not targeting a player. Likewise kills could be visiting or targeting. The operations likewise were more complex but generally targeting roles went first over visiting.

Ramble over.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:16 am

Post by Vi »

I mean, you can do it, but
1) :effort:
2) Players like knowing what the hell their abilities do to the extent of being able to justify any indications that may come up.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:53 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

Needless complexity for needless complexity's sake?
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:59 am

Post by Firebringer »

It's mostly to make setups more interesting and possibly less vanilla townie centric.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:26 am

Post by Vi »

FWIW I have seen games where the order of resolution was changed - I think some late Tarhalindur games had "this resolves before all other abilities" clauses and zoraster or someone had a game with action resolution orders assigned to players (e.g. all of my abilities resolve first, then all of MoI's, etc.). The former has niche use in design; the latter is kind of gimmicky tbh.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:29 am

Post by Firebringer »

I mean any kind of complex order of operations is kind of gimmicky because it has limited application.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:55 am

Post by BrainpanSonata »

I find Reasonable Action Resolution pretty appealing, but I've yet to mod a game where I'd be able to apply it. And I'd have to consider how the players- who are so used to NAR because "go with what you know"- would react. I've broached the subject with other mods over on Kong, but the general response was "why bother".
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:16 am

Post by Accountant »

In post 6, BrainpanSonata wrote:I find Reasonable Action Resolution pretty appealing, but I've yet to mod a game where I'd be able to apply it. And I'd have to consider how the players- who are so used to NAR because "go with what you know"- would react. I've broached the subject with other mods over on Kong, but the general response was "why bother".
Kong? As in Kongregate Forum Games? Ooooh, that place brings back memories. I used to be a very active mafia player there
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:17 am

Post by Accountant »

In post 3, Firebringer wrote:It's mostly to make setups more interesting and possibly less vanilla townie centric.
Why would you move the focus of the game away from the best role in the game
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:00 pm

Post by kuribo »

The best method is the Kuribo Resolved Action Protocol:

Image

Very few mods use it though
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:10 am

Post by Accountant »

what does secret clown do
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:28 am

Post by Firebringer »

It grows another head, can you not read the chart?
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"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.

His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:59 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

I've done a slightly amended version before, but mostly to remove questions about role interactions
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:07 am

Post by Accountant »

holy shit ut your avatar's back
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:13 am

Post by kuribo »

In post 10, Accountant wrote:what does secret clown do
x times per game it can use balloon animals to terrify anyone who targets them, thus rendering them vanilla
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:16 am

Post by Accountant »

In post 14, kuribo wrote:
In post 10, Accountant wrote:what does secret clown do
x times per game it can use balloon animals to terrify anyone who targets them, thus rendering them vanilla
Why not just call it a Paranoid Gun Vanillaizer Owner or something?
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:26 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

Paranoid Vanillaizer
<Embrace The Void>


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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:37 am

Post by kuribo »

In post 15, Accountant wrote:
In post 14, kuribo wrote:
In post 10, Accountant wrote:what does secret clown do
x times per game it can use balloon animals to terrify anyone who targets them, thus rendering them vanilla
Why not just call it a Paranoid Gun Vanillaizer Owner or something?
because roles don't have to have stupid / complicated names


by that logic, Godfathers would have been called Investigative Immune Mafia Goons and Vigs would be called Night Killing Vanilla Townies


and also, PGOs are reflexive, Secret Clown has to choose to make the balloon animals
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:01 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Reasonable Action Resolution is basically NAR but allowing for all the awkward cornercases that NAR doesn't handle (rather than trying to use a list-based tiebreak that doesn't work).

I've been meaning to write another action resolution system, which is
also
basically just NAR, but covering the simple cases only and not attempting to handle stupid situations like multiple Bus Drivers. The idea is to have something that spells out the common role interactions as simply as possible so that mods and players can't screw it up.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:11 am

Post by Ümläüt »

Can anyone give me a case (or did I miss one in the wiki article) where the RAR resolution differs from the usual NAR resolution? The vigilante/roleblocker/jailkeeper interaction was well explained, but as far as I know the usual ruling in that case would be that roleblocker trumps jailkeeper and so the outcome is the same. I guess NAR doesn't actually mandate this, but I would be very surprised if a mod ruled differently, so it's pretty much
de facto
part of NAR.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:39 am

Post by callforjudgement »

RAR's designed to produce the same result as NAR in all cases which work via Golden Rule. It's just intended to expand the tiebreak so that it works consistently even in weird cases.

Here's an example that requires the tiebreak in NAR: player 1 blocks player 2, player 2 busdrives player 2 and player 3. player 3 kills player 4. In NAR, if there's an unavoidable loop, the tiebreak states that bus drives beat blocks; thus player 3 gets blocked and player 2 doesn't, and thus player 4 survives. (The fact that I needed to include a self-targeting bus driver in the example says quite a bit about how NAR and RAR are almost identical. The main gain of RAR is that it handles the cases that NAR doesn't handle at all, such as cross-targeting jailkeepers.)

In RAR, we reason like this:
Does player 4 die?
- Reason for yes: player 3 tried to kill them;
- Reason for no: but there was a roleblock action
and
it was bus driven onto player 3
- Reason for yes: but the bus drive was blocked (no loop yet: we have block → bus drive → kill)
- Reason for no:
but the block was bus driven
(can't get this far as now there is a loop:
bus drive
→ block →
bus drive
→ kill)
So player 4 dies.

In RAR, you get a consistent result regardless of what form of redirection-like ability player 2 attempts to use; whether they redirect player 1, deflect themself, or busdrive themself, you get the same result. This is because RAR looks at the effects of an action, rather than the type of action.

In NAR, on the other hand, player 4 survives if player 2 is a bus driver, but dies if player 2 is a redirector or deflector. This is because it uses an arbitrary tiebreak which depends on the name of the ability, meaning that bus drives and redirects tie break in different ways.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:29 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 9, kuribo wrote:The best method is the Kuribo Resolved Action Protocol:

Image

Very few mods use it though
FUCK

LOL
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:33 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

For a huge open game I designed I got forced to change NAR a bit and clearly spescify the order of resolving all abilities to make sure game won't have any grey areas.

I call it DNAR (Dota Night actions resolution system) : http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p8303566

The game has 150 abilities so far (some are passive and some are day/twilight abilities though). Do you guys have any ideas about a better way for resolving them?
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:28 am

Post by MagnaofIllusion »

In post 9, kuribo wrote:The best method is the Kuribo Resolved Action Protocol:

Image

Very few mods use it though
The best part of this post is that no-one has bothered to mention the acrostic that the name spells out ...
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:50 am

Post by kuribo »

I've posted it several times in the last couple years and i don't remember anyone ever noticing the acronym
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