Newbie 1449: Return of the Van [Game Over!]

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Newbie 1449: Return of the Van [Game Over!]

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:21 pm

Post by Untrod Tripod »

Hello! Welcome to Newbie Game 1449.



If you are a newbie player, please review the game rules below.

Spoiler: Living Players (5/9)
Trisania
thiscantgowrong
SafetyDance
Montosh
hayatoBL
WBOCampfire1104
Grimgroove (SE)



Spoiler: Dead Players (4/9)
thenewearth,
Vanilla Town
, lynched Day 1
zipperflesh,
Vanilla Town
, killed Night 1
Nobody Special,
Vanilla Town
, lynched Day 1
fferyllt,
Vanilla Town
, killed Night 2



Game Rules


General Rules:

0. Read this post very carefully.
1. This is a game. Have fun!
2. Be respectful of your fellow players. Review your posts before you submit them. If you have to wonder "am I being rude here?" then you should rewrite your post.
3. Do not quote any communications between you and me. Doing so will result in a modkill.
4. Do not talk outside of this thread about this game with anyone other than me unless doing so is explicitly allowed per your role PM.
5. If I need to edit one of your posts for any reason,
i
t
w
i
l
l
l
o
o
k
l
i
k
e
t
h
i
s
. For that reason, you may use any solid colors you like, but please steer clear of any kind of rainbow gradient.
6. Do not hesitate to PM me with any questions you have about the game.
7. All general site rules apply to this game.

Game Rules:

1. The only active abilities you have during the day are voting for a lynch and talking. To vote for a lynch
Spoiler: Do this

Code: Select all

[b]vote Untrod Tripod[/b] 

or 

[vote]Untrod Tripod[/vote]


It is helpful, but not necessary for you to unvote before you change your vote.
2. Lynch is reached at a simple majority.
3. You may vote to not lynch anyone for the day cycle by voting No Lynch.
4. In general, if you have a question for me, please send it via PM. Asking me questions in-thread is fine, but I am far more likely to miss them that way.
5. If a player has not reached lynch threshold by deadline, no lynch will take place that day.

Activity Rules:

1. You must post at least once every 72 hours except in the event of V/LA (explained below). If you do not do so you will receive a prod, after which you will have 24 hours to post in this thread. Prods will be tallied in the first post in this thread. Any player who requires three prods will be force-replaced.
2. If you anticipate that you will be unable to post in the game for a period of time, post in the game what you expect this period to be like so:

Spoiler:
Untrod Tripod wrote:Sorry all, I will be V/LA from 2/22-2/25


3. Each game day will last for a maximum of 21 days.
4. All deadlines will be posted in votecounts and the current deadline will be in the first post of this thread.
5. Each night will last 72 hours. If you fail to submit a night action during that time, no action will be used.

More Rules:

1. Do not use invisible text or tiny font size to hide things.
2. If there is a modkill during the day, the game will continue as before without ending the day.
3. As the mod, I reserve the right to change any of the above ruleset (within reason) at any point. I will tell you all in the thread if the ruleset has been changed and quote the change.

IC and SE Guidelines:

The purpose of the IC and SE players in this game is to help newbies understand how this game is played and how this game is played on this website. If you have any questions about abbreviations, etiquette, mafia, etc. do not hesitate to ask your IC. Newbie games are meant to be educational. That said, remember these things
1. Because roles were assigned randomly, do not assume that your IC or SE players are town. They will provide you will good information, but they are no more likely to be town than any other player in the game.
2. There are no stupid questions! If you are unclear about any mafia-related questions ask your IC in thread. The answer to your mafia-related questions will be helpful to everyone in the game.
3. The tells and advice listed in the wiki will only get you so far. Your IC and SE are vastly more useful resources than the wiki. They will help you use analysis for this particular game.

Setup:

This game uses the Matrix6 setup. This is a semi-open setup, meaning that there are several options for what this setup could be and these options are known to you. I used random.org to determine both setup and role distribution. I sent proof of randomization to the Newbie Game List Mod.

Have fun!

Useful Links


Newbie Guide
Frequently Asked Questions
Commonly Used Abbreviations
Last edited by Untrod Tripod on Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:25 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:06 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

All confirmations are in. With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch. Deadline is 11/23.

Go.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:47 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

IC IntroHello, fellow scums and towns! I am your friendly Inexperience-Challenged (IC) player in this game. I'm here to
pwn you newbies to oblivion
teach you guys how to play mafia in this site. If you guys have any questions about mafia theory or how to play out certain situations, ask away. I guarantee that I will not lie about any of those regardless of my alignment, which is guaranteed to be randomized by the random.org.

Also, in this game, we have 3 Semi-Experienced (SE) players. If I'm not around and you guys have a question, they are here for you.

Sure, I am here to teach you guys, but I am also here to play and win, and I am fully expected to you guys to treat me as such.
My play will be governed by this page: Being a good IC

Now here are some tips to get you guys started:

Don't lurk:
Lurking is basically reading a game but not posting. Lurking will usually hurt you regardless of your alignment. People here generally has a bad view aganist lurkers, so yeah. Try not to do that.

Always lynch Day 1:
Day 1 is the day when we have the least information. Some newbies prefer no lynching Day 1 because they want more information from PRs (Power Roles), or just simply they are too afraid of lynching townies. However, don't be afraid to lynch Day 1. Lynching Day 1 will provide flip, which is a major information we can work with. Also if we don't lynch, we're throwing away a chance to lynch scum.

Never self-hammer:
Never self-hammer, especially as town. It looks bad and (in fact, you're playing against your win condition that way) we lose the information about extra person who would've voted you. There are specific situation where it is acceptable, especially as scum, but just don't do it in general. Even if your chance is slim, always try to get out of the lynch rather than giving up and self hammer.

Do not fakeclaim a PR as VT:
Of course, this is directed to town. Scums may fakeclaim as their own will. Some newbie VT (Vanilla Townie) tend to fakeclaim because they are in trouble and want to live, or they don't believe their suspect's claim (especially PR claim). Don't do it. When you fakeclaim a PR as VT, you have a chance to draw out an actual PR, which is bad for you and town.

Do NOT quickhammer as town:
I've some people doing this a lot lately. DON'T DO IT! Quickhammer cuts off the discussion, makes you a great lynchbait next day, etc. The proper way to place a hammervote is to check if the person is in L-1 (Lynch minus 1, which means one vote away from eating rope), declare the intent to hammer, get a claim, and THEN hammer if the person still needs to be lynched. Last thing we want to see in this game is someone quickhammering unclaimed PR.

And here are some links that can help you further in your mafia career:

Newbie Guide
Frequently Asked Questions
Commonly Used Abbreviations


Day 1 is the day when we have the least amount of information. So usually we start the game with the
Random Voting Stage (RVS)
to apply pressure, create reaction, and all the fun stuff.

VOTE: TNE

Hi!
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The true enlightenment was realizing that they are the same thing."
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WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:51 am

Post by Montosh »

Hello there.

VOTE: zipperflesh

Because zippers suck
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:53 am

Post by zipperflesh »

VOTE: montosh

OMGUS

Zippers are so cool...
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:23 am

Post by Cervantes »

Hi there

VOTE: thenewearth

Cause he's prolly a better osu player than me and I'm jelly
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:45 am

Post by thiscantgowrong »

Well looks like we're already off to good start with the voting. Except for one thing. I don't think we should be officially voting on people quite yet. Here's my thinking.

We want to apply pressure at this stage yes, but officially voting makes it a lot easier for an accidental (or intentional) getting a majority before the victim has had a chance to fully defend him/herself. If it's an intentional attempt by the mafia to get a townie killed then that's actually good for us as it gives us an obvious target for the next day. BUT if it's someone who accidentally does it then our obvious target is another townie and we have the first two days with three townie kills and zero mafia kills. I'd rather avoid that.

So here's what I propose instead. Let's say, in non-bolded text, who each of us is leaning towards lynching. If a majority of people say they are leaning towards lynching one player, then we give that player 24 hours from the time that the 5th player said he wanted that particular person dead to respond and defend himself. If he hasn't replied in that 24 hours we all vote to lynch, and if he has then we can start voting for him/her or moving on to a different player depending on how convincing s/he is. Sound reasonable?

Oh and I'm leaning towards lynching zipperflesh. He's clearly an experienced player given his join date meaning that either he is a potentially experienced townie, in which case I doubt he'll have trouble convincing us to not kill him, or a dangerously experienced scum, in which case killing him is a huge blow to the mafia.

But more importantly: I'm rather against the idea of combining zippers and flesh.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:47 am

Post by thiscantgowrong »

Oh one correction, the first two days and nights would be 4 townie kills zero mafia kills. I forgot to add the second night. Assuming we don't have a vigilante.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:58 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

Re: Post #6
No.
Chance of D1 quicklynch is stupidly low even in newbie game anyway.
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The true enlightenment was realizing that they are the same thing."
~fferyllt

"who the fuck fakeclaims Tracker like that
WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
~Alisae
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:59 am

Post by Cervantes »

@thiscantgowrong

You're either a naive newbie scum or an overly excited townie. For the time being I'm gonna stick with the first one.

VOTE: thiscantgowrong

Rvs is a standard starting procedure. I don't really see how one vote can lead to quickhammer.
I'm not even gonna comment on the thing about zipperflesh. That was just bad.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:02 am

Post by zipperflesh »

If there is no threat of being lynched, then scum won't be pressured into making a mistake. Your suggestion is extremely anti town, but I don't think that makes you scum.
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“If Passion drives, let Reason hold the Reins.” - Ben Franklin
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:05 am

Post by zipperflesh »

UNVOTE: montosh

VOTE: Cervantes

First scum read of the game.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:10 am

Post by thiscantgowrong »

Well I defer to more experienced players on this (that is why I'm in a newbie game after all). But before I use my first actual vote, I'm curious if zipperflesh would care to explain what aspect of Cervantes' post made you think scum?
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:41 am

Post by zipperflesh »

The fact that he seems to going for the easy target, you. And the way he tries to devalue your point about me without actually giving any reasons why it was a bad argument.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:58 am

Post by thiscantgowrong »

Alrighty. I figure your general game advice is likely to be good zipper (or called out by the other ICs/SEs if it's biased), but I don't know whether to trust your assessments of particular players yet. I'd like to try and start to find that out however.

VOTE: Cervantes


If Cervantes provides a good defense of himself then we get info. If he gets lynched and he's town then I at least get info to be somewhat mistrustful of your tells. If he's lynched and he's mafia then I think it's highly likely you're town because getting a teammate lynched on day 1 before you even know if there's a cop that could out you anyways seems insanely risky.

So Cervantes, the ball's in your court.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:04 am

Post by Trisania »

Hi there. I'll make it quick, since I have to sleep soon:

I won't vote until at least page three, so I'd have enough basis for reads. I'd prefer a no lynch on D1, so as to avoid a mislynch; however, it would grant the mafia an advantage for killing us at night. So it's better to guess a lynch and probably lynch scum, than be killed off one by one by them.

On a side note, I live in a different time zone, so I apologize if I couldn't respond immediately.
An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she tells you isn't the one you think you hear.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:07 am

Post by Cervantes »

@Zipper Isn't it obvious? Joining date by no means determines one's value.
I'm not going for an "easy" target, I'm going for the first target I recognized, which is by the way the same thing you did and this is the right thing to do.
@thiscantgowrong
Sheep me more. Also, buddying with Zipper will help you a lot...not.

@Trisania you don't help a lot by stating the obvious.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:10 am

Post by Trisania »

In post 16, Cervantes wrote:@Zipper Isn't it obvious? Joining date by no means determines one's value.
I'm not going for an "easy" target, I'm going for the first target I recognized, which is by the way the same thing you did and this is the right thing to do.
@thiscantgowrong
Sheep me more. Also, buddying with Zipper will help you a lot...not.

@Trisania you don't help a lot by stating the obvious.
Sorry, I'm a super newbie. :neutral:

Anyway, so far no one has said anything highly suspicious, so I don't want to judge people too soon.
An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she tells you isn't the one you think you hear.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:56 am

Post by Cervantes »

Still I'd prefer you picked a vote. You don't need solid reads yet, RVS contains the word "random" for a reason. You don't acquire more information by not voting.
You mentioned that "you live in a different time zone". Different from whom? Aren't we all living in various timezones?
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:08 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

In post 6, thiscantgowrong wrote:Well looks like we're already off to good start with the voting. Except for one thing. I don't think we should be officially voting on people quite yet. Here's my thinking.

We want to apply pressure at this stage yes, but officially voting makes it a lot easier for an accidental (or intentional) getting a majority before the victim has had a chance to fully defend him/herself. If it's an intentional attempt by the mafia to get a townie killed then that's actually good for us as it gives us an obvious target for the next day. BUT if it's someone who accidentally does it then our obvious target is another townie and we have the first two days with three townie kills and zero mafia kills. I'd rather avoid that.

So here's what I propose instead. Let's say, in non-bolded text, who each of us is leaning towards lynching. If a majority of people say they are leaning towards lynching one player, then we give that player 24 hours from the time that the 5th player said he wanted that particular person dead to respond and defend himself. If he hasn't replied in that 24 hours we all vote to lynch, and if he has then we can start voting for him/her or moving on to a different player depending on how convincing s/he is. Sound reasonable?

Oh and I'm leaning towards lynching zipperflesh. He's clearly an experienced player given his join date meaning that either he is a potentially experienced townie, in which case I doubt he'll have trouble convincing us to not kill him, or a dangerously experienced scum, in which case killing him is a huge blow to the mafia.

But more importantly: I'm rather against the idea of combining zippers and flesh.
Since I'm on my computer now, I can answer this probably.
As I said, it's a bad idea.
As zipper said, pressuring is a great aspect of scumhunting. Pressuring creates flailing, and flailing cause other people to react to that flailing in some way, which generates a lot of information we can use to scumhunt.
Also, never hesitate to use your vote. The common myth that newbies believe that people only vote to lynch. That is not true. Vote can be used to pressure, create reactions, etc.
In fact, the accidental lynch you fear is very very rare, even in newbie games anyway.
Also, quickhammer is not always scum vote.
(Aaaaaaand strategy makes people lazy ;) )
In post 9, Cervantes wrote:@thiscantgowrong

You're either a naive newbie scum or an overly excited townie. For the time being I'm gonna stick with the first one.

VOTE: thiscantgowrong

Rvs is a standard starting procedure. I don't really see how one vote can lead to quickhammer.
I'm not even gonna comment on the thing about zipperflesh. That was just bad.
Why so hate
In post 15, Trisania wrote:Hi there. I'll make it quick, since I have to sleep soon:

I won't vote until at least page three, so I'd have enough basis for reads. I'd prefer a no lynch on D1, so as to avoid a mislynch; however, it would grant the mafia an advantage for killing us at night. So it's better to guess a lynch and probably lynch scum, than be killed off one by one by them.

On a side note, I live in a different time zone, so I apologize if I couldn't respond immediately.
:neutral:

The general tip is that if you fear a mislynch, you won't be able to get anything done.
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The true enlightenment was realizing that they are the same thing."
~fferyllt

"who the fuck fakeclaims Tracker like that
WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT"
~Alisae
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:25 am

Post by Grimgroove »

VOTE: thiscantgowrong

Barges into this topic with some ideas he's obviously thought out before this game even started, which in itself is null. The ideas themselves are bad (already explained), but that is not the problem.

The problem is:

1/ He abandoned those ideas in a jiffy. (he voted someone while earlier claiming he didn't feel comfortable doing it)
2/ His assumption of "no vigilante" rubs me the wrong way. The man is, when looking at his explanations, obviously very meticulous. Someone so meticulous would have looked at the setup possibilities and see there is no such thing as vigilantes.
3/ He knows about the existance of vigilantes. He as not as much of a newbie as he protrays in , where he is willingly lead by the hand by "someone more expereinces".

Not liking Trisania either, but there's still the possibility of a nervous newbie. I've seen it before.

I didn't even get to RVS :(
"What truffles are to pigs so are these charlatans and pettifoggers to my mental acuity." - Frasier
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:30 am

Post by Montosh »

In post 20, Grimgroove wrote:VOTE: thiscantgowrong

Barges into this topic with some ideas he's obviously thought out before this game even started, which in itself is null. The ideas themselves are bad (already explained), but that is not the problem.

The problem is:

1/ He abandoned those ideas in a jiffy. (he voted someone while earlier claiming he didn't feel comfortable doing it)
2/ His assumption of "no vigilante" rubs me the wrong way. The man is, when looking at his explanations, obviously very meticulous. Someone so meticulous would have looked at the setup possibilities and see there is no such thing as vigilantes.
3/ He knows about the existance of vigilantes. He as not as much of a newbie as he protrays in , where he is willingly lead by the hand by "someone more expereinces".

Not liking Trisania either, but there's still the possibility of a nervous newbie. I've seen it before.

I didn't even get to RVS :(
I have to agree with this, he seems much more experience than he's making himself out to be. And the fact he seems to have little/no conviction with his ideas. I'll ask that he responds to this.

VOTE: thiscantgowrong
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:58 am

Post by thiscantgowrong »

In post 20, Grimgroove wrote:VOTE: thiscantgowrong

Barges into this topic with some ideas he's obviously thought out before this game even started, which in itself is null. The ideas themselves are bad (already explained), but that is not the problem.

The problem is:

1/ He abandoned those ideas in a jiffy. (he voted someone while earlier claiming he didn't feel comfortable doing it)
2/ His assumption of "no vigilante" rubs me the wrong way. The man is, when looking at his explanations, obviously very meticulous. Someone so meticulous would have looked at the setup possibilities and see there is no such thing as vigilantes.
3/ He knows about the existance of vigilantes. He as not as much of a newbie as he protrays in , where he is willingly lead by the hand by "someone more expereinces".

Not liking Trisania either, but there's still the possibility of a nervous newbie. I've seen it before.

I didn't even get to RVS :(
I see where you're coming from, but I must protest my innocence nonetheless. I think you're putting together data in an odd way here so let me explain.

To point 1) you are correct I did abandon my ideas quickly. If I was scum I might do that if I was very inexperienced and didn't view quick changes as a negative tell. Of course I might also not do it as a townie to avoid the negative tell thing as well. Which then leaves why did I change so quickly?

First, I'm not a complete newbie, you are sort of correct there. But it's been a year and a half since I played last (and that was in person not over a forum) and before that I'd only played a handful of games. I know enough to know the roles and a few basic points, but I don't consider myself nearly so good or experienced as others. The arguments for and against the proposal I made are not something that can be decided without empirical information or experience to determine the relative strengths of the various concerns. Is a quick hammer really likely on D1 with newbies? Is the information garnered through actual votes more useful than with threatened votes? You need experience to know this and pretty much any non-newbie here should beat me handily in that regard. There's also another reason to switch easily on that: maintaining a position that is clearly against the standard wisdom of the board is a poor way to make a first impression. I'd rather not be that guy who comes in with a bunch of quite possibly terrible ideas and defends them vigorously in the face of players who have been on these boards for years. Humility (or if you're cynical the signaling of humility) seems like a more obvious motivation than some weird scum motivation.

To the vigilante point, I'll take the meticulousness as a compliment, but again this seems like odd evidence for scuminess. Here are the assumptions you might make. 1) I'm town and had a brainfart (and yea this is what happened, but I'll go through the rest anyways) 2) I'm scum and had a brainfart (assumptions 1 and 2 seem equally balanced except just by random chance I'm more likely to be town) 3) I'm town and wanted to trick people into thinking there was a vigilante (this one seems really unlikely as I can't think of a reason as town I'd want people to think there would be a vig when there isn't one) 4) I'm scum and wanted to trick people into thinking there was a vig, likely to use that as a role claim should a tracker be in this game. I assume you're thinking about the 4th possibility but it's also really unlikely. If you're right and I am a meticulous player, then my first thought when attempting that plan should have been "oh wait, there are SE and ICs who would totally know better than to think there was a vig! That would make me an auto-target if I ever tried to claim that" A mistake based on there being a vig due to forgetfulness or too speedy reading of newbie guides seems more likely than a meticulous plan with a 100% failure chance.

So why did I start with a fairly long post? To get discussion going which gives information to the town about the play styles and modes of thinking of other players. That seems like a doubly bad idea if I was scum. A) I'm drawing attention to myself which even if I make a successful defense Day 1 will likely mean other people have me in mind with lynches in the future and B) serious discussion is happening with increases the likelihood of tells for mafia members. Since I'm town, point B) is a huge plus while point A) is a minor loss (after all, the town is less harmed by the loss of townie than the mafia can afford the loss of one of it's members).

As for my vote, I'm keeping it on Cervantes, his defense hasn't moved me yet.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:04 pm

Post by thenewearth »

VOTE: Grimgroove

Don't I know you?
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:05 pm

Post by thenewearth »

In post 5, Cervantes wrote:Hi there

VOTE: thenewearth

Cause he's prolly a better osu player than me and I'm jelly
Who are you and did sakura blackmail you?

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