Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Thor665]

I don't even care anymore - both of you just rock on, I am sure this is brilliant play from both of you and I don't even grasp it. Huzzah and forsooth!

[droog]

[droog]

let's make peace
please show me how your case is better than slick's
and i will follow it

[SlickWilly]

As I previously said, my gut went thor/droog scum....but I haven't delved deep into potential thor-scum partners, really. I can't answer that solidly, because this nightless-nonkilling game gives us no information to go off of. Everything seems to come off of suspicion/gut until we get more information (especially with the one dead mafia dying before any real interaction). I'll openly admit I'm more familiar with standard setups where there is at least one information gathering position to run off of. Much of my hesitation comes from that. But if Thor flipped scum then I'd go droog-shaddowz-phil.

My biggest hesitation with Thor is his consistent vote on town-lynches. You seem capable and oriented to picking apart who is most likely mafia (more so than others), but super-town reads to me almost suggest scum. I suppose I'm WIFOM'ing in my head about this. I found some guy who had a picture in his signature that said to win you should sheep him and thor....sheeping thor seems like a mafia win so far. That is about as far towards individual meta as I've went...and that was happenstance. Not a great case, I suppose, but it hits me given my perspective.

I will captain clever as much as I see fit to push who I think hasn't been pushed. I need to push Phil and Fink to get interactions...but you were my initial suspicion (outside of 50+ page reading), so I'm starting there. I do like a shadowz lynch, but it makes more sense to me to lynch my gut-read rather than a policy null-read at this point.

I can be convinced of a Shaddowz lynch, if someone could give me a

good

scum-partner read. Yet I find that a hard sell. If Thor townflipped and my gut was proven wrong, then I'd be compelled to abaondon my gut. Which would leave me with my brain (which would say Phil, or shaddowz if I sheeped your current vote). If Shaddowz flips I have little-nothing. If Thor flips I have trust to work with.

Oh, and speaking of pressure....

Fink, why did you change votes from Phil in previous days?

Something comes off as protective. Do you feel confident that Phil is town, or did you think the cases on others were better?

[droog]

But if Thor flipped scum then I'd go droog-shaddowz-phil.

you have to think thor and i
masochists
for us to have planned this last spate in a scum qt

[shaddowez]

Mod - I will be V/LA over the weekend (until 11/10)

[Not_Mafia]

Mod - I will be V/LA over the weekend (until 11/10)

Noted

[SlickWilly]

But if Thor flipped scum then I'd go droog-shaddowz-phil.

you have to think thor and i
masochists
for us to have planned this last spate in a scum qt

I'd have to go over the interactions again, but previous interactions gave me a thor/droog 'distant buddy' feeling (during my long read). I'm still debating the Thor/Phill vote, though. I think I'll wait until the other players chime in a bit more.

[Fink]

Fink, why did you change votes from Phil in previous days? Something comes off as protective. Do you feel confident that Phil is town, or did you think the cases on others were better?

Um, I don't know how you get a feeling of me as being protective toward Phil

I was the main person pushing for his lynch on Day 3 and Day 4.

And no, I am far,

FAR

from confident that Phil is town. On Day 3, I switched my vote at the last minute, when it became clear a Phil lynch wouldn't happen. Not that I ever thought Acryon was a bad lynch in the last like... week of that day.

On Day 4 I again only hammered Bob as deadline approached. And again, I was fine with either lynch and no one was coming over to hammer Phil (except maybe Dys, who was MIA). In fact, Bob would have been hammered much sooner except that I switched my vote from Bob to Phil when it looked like a Phil lynch was possible.

But toward the end of day 4 and the start of day 5, Phil said a few things that caused me to think he had some town-ish self-doubt, and Thor made a good point about getting more information. I'd been going after Phil forever and wanted to see about Bert and Droog. Bert particularly I had very little read on other than some residual DCXVI suspicion, but Droog made a pretty good case for himself as the day went on. And I was feeling (and kind of still am) that Droog-Phil wasn't a very likely scumteam.

So no, I'm not even townreading Phil at all. I'm null-reading him with a bit of if-my-top-scumread-flips-scum-he's-probably-town.

I'm not sure if that makes me more or less confident of him than I am of Shaddowez, but they're in the same range.

[Fink]

And yeah, between the ongoing computer issues and the Bert hammer and all this stuff with Droog and Thor, I lost and haven't been able to muster up the giving-a-shit enough to rephrase all the stuff I want to say on Droog right now, so this will have to suffice.

Look at the interaction between Droog and Thor today. I feel that that's my interactions with Droog all of yesterday in microcosm. Thor has clearly labeled Dys as a town read several times. He said her case on him was bad and based on feels and that Acryon's case on him was bad and looked like a scum case. Droog not only took this to mean that Thor thought Dys was scum and changed his read, he took it to mean that Thor was lying about this. Droog even quoted the original post and managed to misinterpret it again. And then accused Thor of not reading.

I cannot believe that Droog is really this clueless and this much of a pain in the ass. I do think it's an excellent strategy for scum, especially when no one else seems to find him scummy for it but it contributes to no one but me and Droog and Thor following the game closely. And as I explained the other day, seeming like he believes his own bullshit is

not

a town-tell for Droog.

Remember, there are 2 scum. So even if Droog eventually gets himself lynched over this (and he's done a good job not doing so so far), it will certainly have helped his scumbuddy when it comes time to try to find associations.

VOTE: Droog

[droog]

Slick Phil Thor shadow if you want any rebuttal request a point
Don't want to clog this up otherwise

[Phillammon]

Apologies for failing to report it, but I will be V/LA until Tuesday.

In the mean time, Fink does, distressingly, make some good points on the subject of Droog with regards to Dyslexicon's slot. Given we're going to be at LyLo if there's a mislynch here, I want to do something in depth before I start throwing any votes around, however.

[droog]

which ones

[Thor665]

This thread is doing so well now that I'm not giving people homework.

[droog]

let's make peace
please show me how your case is better than slick's
and i will follow it

Slick Phil Thor shadow if you want any rebuttal request a point
Don't want to clog this up otherwise

[droog]

you dont like the quality of the thread
and thats what you have to contribute?

[Thor665]

I don't care anymore.

[Fink]

Thor, come back and vote Droog with me.

I get why you want to lynch Shaddowez, it makes sense if there are no good cases, ensure that the players you have a read on are the ones left. But if there are other better reads then it's worth voting over those, right?

I think Droog is likely to be scum. You seemed to agree yesterday. Then he kept misreping me and confusing everything. Today he did the same to you. It doesn't seem town to me. It doesn't seem like he's motivated to actually determine the truth so much as to say a lot of words and confuse everything.

And I'm scumreading him for it, you were/are too, and most other people seem to be finding him hard to read (not sure if in one or both senses of the word here.) So rather than a lurker who is hard to read for the most active players, why not lynch an active player who a minority find scummy as hell, and others seem disinclined to figure out WTF he's even trying to say.

And I know this may sound weird to you, but I'd rather have Shaddowez in LYLO than Droog (although IMO lynching Droog has best odds of avoiding LYLO). When we've pressed him before, as I did over the thing with Dys about "what scumhunting looks like" and his read on her from that, he seems to answer more. And with a long day we can press him plenty and get him talking.

Come vote Droog with me.

[Fink]

@Willy,

I'm getting the sense that replacing into this game is a bit overwhelming (see also: Bob, Bert). Thanks for doing it. Regarding the game, I don't mean to assign "thread homework" but could you be so kind as to put me, Phil, and Droog into ISO together, and start at the start of Day 4. I know that section is an unholy mess, but mostly what I'm hoping you'll look at is the three of us disagreeing about my ability to get Phil lynched at the end of Day 3 instead of Acryon.

Facts of the case aside (although I maintain it was impossible and I'm not unreasonable for thinking so), could you focus on the interaction between Droog, Phil, and I about that issue? And then like just comment on it a bit or something. Please?

I feel like I'm going crazy with the repeated accusations that I never addressed that. My read is that Phil is mistaken, I'm right, and Droog is feeding the fight in an anti-town way. But at the time I was initially thinking Phil was pushing a scummy wagon and Droog was sheeping without bothering to pay enough attention. And sure, it's possible I didn't explain my point of view clearly, but I haven't heard that from anyone I don't think is motivated to actively misinterpret me, either through scum motive or tunnel-vision.

That's why I want your opinion, and maybe it will help shed some light on our alignments. It was a tense, emotional period all around I think.

[Thor665]

I get why you want to lynch Shaddowez, it makes sense if there are no good cases, ensure that the players you have a read on are the ones left. But if there are other better reads then it's worth voting over those, right?

I don't think so - because tomorrow we will have info to draw on to make those value calls for those slots.
We have nothing from Shaddowez - he is a null slot. If we go into tomorrow in lylo the case is going to be called "lurker case" and no one will want to vote it, and if he is scum that is straight up dangerous.

[Fink]

There are two scum though, and he hasn't had 0 interaction with people, just less than he should have. Dys and I have interacted with him a reasonable amount that I remember, and I think someone else.

You're right though, if we lynched Droog and he flipped town, Lurker shaddowez would not be my top scum read, Phil would be. But I'd be willing to vote Shaddowez too.
There are 6 alive today. We have one mislynch left. I'm town reading you and Dys/Willy, so from my POV we could just lynch Droog/Phil/Shaddowez and win. But maybe I'm wrong about either you or Willy. In that case, lynching the most likely scum first makes a lot of sense to me.

You last said you were townreading Willy and I, so what about my logic do you disagree with? Just that you think it'll be hard to lynch a lurker tomorrow?

You're right that I'd be happier lynching Shaddowez if we lynch another scum first and it seems like there's a conspicuous lack of connection or something, but is there a reason you think Droog is likely to be town?

[Thor665]

Not really, his conversation with me earlier was pretty damning in its inflexibility paired with not seeming to give a hoot.
I also do still town read Slick, he's a lunk of a player, but the slot is still likely town based off Dys' paranoia - that's a tell I'm pretty happy with.
I do think Shaddowez would be a harder lynch tomorrow.

[Thor665]

Phillammon (1)-

Shaddowez

Shaddowez (1)-

Thor665

Thor665 (1)-

SlickWilly (or maybe on Phil?)

droog (1)-

Fink

Fink (1)-

droog (??? - actually I'm not sure who his top scumread is, wasn't he townreading you?)

SlickWilly (0)-

Not Voting (3)-

Phillammon (maybe sort of okay with a droog lynch, but has functionally checked out of offering an opinion so far today)

Currently this is what I believe the voting process stands at if everyone who is not voting voted their current stated top scum read.
We need 4 to lynch.
This is not that impressive of a lineup.

I guess my current stance is this - only you and I have expressed desire to lynch droog as any sort of serious statement. Until Phil shows up and claims anything, or until someone else notes that droog is scummy - there is little value in getting me to agree that the idea of lynching droog is not a bad plan. I'm already your best support for that wagon - you need 2 other votes.

I can't believe no one is even remotely on board with the idea of lynching Shaddowez - do people town read him or something?

Okay, also good work Fink, I kind of care again.
People need to man up and express some clear desires for who they want lynched today and to stop dorking around.
Especially Droog, Phil, and Shaddow, but Slick is also part of that group as he hasn't really made any particularly clear statements even yet. What's wrong guys, scared to be held accountable? State some top names to get lynched.

[Thor665]

The more I think about it the more I'm thinking scum has 1-2 people in the wuss statements group simply because scum has to be getting nervy as they are so close right now and are trying to keep any and all options open methinks. People unable to state desires look like they're trying to leave it open to hop on any available mislynch.
This actually rings worst from Phil, but I toss Droog in there as well. Shaddow is a bit better for actually placing a vote...though I am at a loss for most of his reads, Slick is more being mealy mouthed in a generic sense but has at least offered scum/town thoughts.

@Slick - you appear to be suspicious on some level of Shaddowez, this pleases me. However, you also appear okay with Droog - why?

[Thor665]

Oh man, I gave out "thread homework" how crazy of me to expect people to read and understand the game they're in - I'm so strange and ridiculous!