Open 665 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over! Town Victory!!!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's an interesting thought. However, I think if Anti were trying to buddy me, he wouldn't borderline misrep me at every interaction (I say borderline because I'm leaning toward it being genuine miscommunication, as in, we just function on different wavelengths).

Pp-edit: BBT, I might be able to do Moz. The look of the game would have to change for me to vote Anti now. Why not Empking?

I think the earlier miscommunication was genuine but that comment reads super awkward to me and I think you look like a strong player and Anti may be trying to buddy to stay on your good side.

I don't feel like Emp is scum - it's super hard to justify because he isn't doing much. There is also a lack of information gained from lynching Emp right now which makes me even less interested in doing it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I just realised the irony of me talking about Anti buddying you whilst stating you're a strong player.

Funny.

[boring]

It's a little awkward, I'll grant. However, I might not be such a strong player after all. I'd like to understand Fitz's perspective.


Anyway, I get that Alisae looks scummy. Except, he doesn't

just

look scummy. He's so incredibly out-there scummy with some of the things he says, that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe he could actually be scum. He's too open and genuine with it.

Unless I have reason to believe that he's a lot more cunning than I'm giving him credit for, I can't lynch him as scum. Not without some kind of evidence. Maybe if this game was much larger, I'd support a policy lynch, but we can't afford it here.

[Antihuman]

Hawk is doing just enough to coast by whilst we have 13 players around and where his absence is not as easily noticed.

you asked why he is being lynched for coasting. I'm saying that's not why he is being lynched

VOTE: BBT

[-Grey-]

Lel

VOTE: BBT

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Lol.

Have fun with that guys.

[havingfitz]

P-edit: Fitz, Can you explain why I'm in your highest suspect list? This is the first I've heard from you having anything at all to do with me, iirc. If you can't get Hawk or Alisae today, would you vote for me?

Nothing definitive. That answer sucks I know. I liked your early posting. I think some of the posts the last day or so around the Hawk debate had me doubting you. I'm second guessing that read on you. If Hawk or Ali wasn't going to happen I don't think I'd vote you over one of the less involved players.

What changed your mind on Hawk and does my post to him this morning effect that change?

[Hawk]

I was about to unvote you Hawk because of your reaction to the pressure you got yesterday but on closer look....I still find you suspect and your response to my ISO was weak. And too much "honestly" and "sorry" for my liking btw. I also still suspect Ali. And I'm growing suspect of boring lately as well. I was going to say I wasn't a big fan of Empking and Snarky either because of the lack of effort they seem to be putting into this game and then I realized the same thing applied to most of the players in the game. FP...CMM...Moz....LUV. Fcuk. Actually LUV has posted a good bit. Not sure why it feels like he hasn't.

In response to your 517...

- Being on a wagon for no good reason that get's to L-3 is right on the borderline IMO of being dangerous. The fact that you comment on there being no reason to unvote is what pinged me when clearly there was at least 1, ex. you having no reason to vote him and him being at L-3.

Okay can I say something real quick? When I approach a typical game with a 3 scum team putting people to L-3 early for me isn't too big of a deal. Typically because 1 if its a ML there's already a Maf on it. 2. if there isn't Maf on it, it takes 3 coordinated votes to ML and that's usually never good for mafia as it quickly can put big targets on their backs. and 3. In most games I'm not considering a Mason camp so I wasn't really thinking about that and to top that all off I typically unvote if I don't have a reason to stay at L-2

- So you didn't have a strong read on Emp...yet you were ok following Ali and boring onto his wagon bringing yet again...a player to L-3 for reasons unknown to me.

See above. You may not agree with my playstyle but its how I play.

- I'm still having issues with your Ali defense based on meta and the fact you say meta is NAI. How can you defend Ali based on his meta (very limited meta at that) when you do not think meta is NAI? You can't.

I'm not defending Ali based on meta... I say that its his MO, because for me the few games I've played with Ali, this is how he plays. I'm trying to post reasoning as to why we shouldn't dig to deeply into his meta, I even say later that I'm not voting Ali yet because I haven't found him scummy. I don't say that just because I'm town leaning him. I say that because Meta is NAI and I could easily scumlean him if he does something that makes me feel that way. Also if you feel like this is BS go read my post 139 I say mostly gut for you you're acting similar to how you have before in games. But I also state that I've only had three games with him. So him acting similar even if I thought meta was AI doesn't give me anything considering I say I know his alignment for only one of those games. I even say to take all that for what it's worth. I don't think Meta is NAI cause it can be changed. However, I can see where my earlier comments might have been read the way you're reading it now.

- I'm "drawing a lot of conclusions from theory posts?" A lot? One isn't a lot...so show me two conclusions I've made from theory posts. And if one of them is you and Grey being friends...scratch that becuase that wasn't a conclusion. A conclusion would be me saying...Oh look...Grey and Hawk are friends now. I don't say that. I ask if you were to which you were perfectly capable of, and did, reply no. So show me a lot (2) conlusions please.

Okay so one of which was the Me and Grey because I assumed that question was rhetorical. Two all of your implications of me being scummy because of my playstyle and theory behind why I would not unvote at L-3 or be fine putting people to L-3 in a mason game are drawing conclusions since this summary post is why am I scum. If they weren't conclusions you might say something like he's pretty risky and his logic doesn't make 100% sense to me but there's not a lot of reasoning so I'm okay with voting him instead of "Conclusion....yeah...not liking Hawk on closer review."

Like you see how I can say you're drawing conclusions about theory right? Maybe I misworded before when I said theory posts since for me BBT is right I haven't given enough content and a lot of reasoning was weak and mostly just theory things. I even played terribly risky when I didn't need to because I wasn't thinking about two camps possibly being able to coordinate hammer from L-3. Not that either group would ever do that because to be honest its not smart play for either team....

- "This is probably an error on my part" How can you say you weren't treating the game as a mason game when you had discussed theory about masons potentially facillitating mislynches if they all agree (with mafia) on a mislynch wagon? "probably wasn't unaware of the idea" doesn't fly when you talk about it, more than once, a few ISO posts earlier..

Why doesn't it fly?? I address the Mason idea because we're talking Mason theory with Ali on why his reaction test is bad/good and why its risky for Grey to play hyper aggressive an get scum leaned by Masons. I didn't really put together that with the VC that putting people at L-3 is more risky than usual (because I don't feel its risky normally at all in a non-mason game. L-2 is where it's risky for me.)

So my vote stays.


So Hawk...why are you still voting Empking? Do you suspect him?.

Haven't unvoted. EMP is on my scumlean, I'll explain in my reads post.

Can you name 2 or 3 players you actually suspect?

None of these are super strong but Moz, BBT, EMP maybe CMM or FP.... I don't think Moz and BBT are paired so its only one or the other and I don't know if EMP were to flip who his partners would be so these are softish.

Can you name 2 or 3 players you actually think are town?

I like AH, Boring, UZI, and You for all differing reasons. None of you are in my forever town pile but I have good feelings all around here. Some things irk me but chalking that up to inexperience with you guys.

Here's where I stand at the moment.

Suspects: Hawk, Ali, boring
Suspect a little less: Snarky, Emp, FP, Moz, CMM, LUV & Anti
Suspect least atm: Grey, BBT

Here's my readlist. I'll give some reasoning's in the next post.


Townleans:
AntiHuman
Boring
UZI
Alisae

Null:
FP
Fitz
Snarky
CMM
Grey

Scumleans:
Moz
EMP
BBT

[Alisae]

VOTE: BBT
Hawk's walls feel like they are coming from town but also the one thing I really hate about this push is how Hawk was called scummy by BBT for attempting to rebut his case.

[tojam2]

VC 1.10

BlueBloodedToffee (L-4) - Alisae, Antihuman, -Grey-
Empking (L-4) - Lil Uzi Vert, boring, Hawk
Hawk (L-5) - BlueBloodedToffee, havingfitz
mozamis (L-6) - FancyPants
Alisae (L-6) - Empking
ConManMick (L-6) - mozamis

NV (2) - SnarkySnowman, ConManMick

(expired on 2017-01-25 11:09:00)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This looks like it's about to get interesting.

[Hawk]

Antihuman: Townlean

Like 155,
Reads with reasoning, logic seems sound I don't disagree with any of his post here. I do wonder motivation behind wanting to push Mozamis so strongly but I'll say its gut and an early pressure play.
Like 176,
The reasoning is pretty poor but its not exactly unreasonable to vote the way he does. Respect for at least saying this. Give me better insight into his game
Like 178,
Good reasoning, pinches off WIFOM argument before it gets started. Maybe Buddying SS but I don't think so.
Love 375
Solid logic, Defends his Mozami's read earlier. Feeling it more now. I'm indifferent about CMM. Strongly feel like Scum wouldn't post content in this way that gives me such a good insight to his thought process as to why he doesn't like EMP's wagon, my posts, Alisae's possible playstyle and lots of other things. Doesn't go deep into reasonings but he at least points out his thoughts keeps them short and sweet and too the point so its easier to follow.

Everything after this in his ISO just further cements his stance on the game, He didn't like Moz because of similar reasons BBT and others don't like me and why I don't like Moz. Its really unfortunate that theres a slim chance that me and BBT might be TvT and scum just get to sit back because I wasn't active enough here.

Boring: Townlean

Boring

Like 91
Solid reasoning and logic, admits he doesn't have perfect information, nothing really scummy here.

Like general idea of not asking questions so much as directing thoughts towards people and explaining reasonably to questions asked of him.
Ex. 117 to CMM, 164 to LUV, 194 to BBT and AH

Like 289
Sheep vote is fine, requests reasoning I find this vote is fine I do the same thing not a few posts later and do this a lot in general.

Like 330
Nice call out on Grey, not sure what Grey saw but like he says in 333 Grey can call it out if need be.

I'm at work so I will point out more reasoning's later but for the rest of Boring's list I understand where he's coming from. This game is pretty blah and its hard getting any real reads on anyone. This is why most of my reads are leans or null. I just can't commit people to one side or the other very well. Even my Moz, EMP, and BBT leans are soft but they seem the most particular for me.

BBT has been attacking possible low hanging fruit. Moz is like mass diverting every wagon with "why rush?" and not providing commentary of his own. and EMP has been just generally not active in a way that reads town to me. But none of this nails them as scum to me. I'm fine with a lynch today on any of them. I'll explain the rest of my reads after work or on my lunch.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Moz

Hawk can be town now.

[Alisae]

The above is what caught scum looks like

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, we're now on page 24 so we could do with a lynch in the next 2-3 pages.

Lynch Moz and feel good!

[Hawk]

The above is what caught scum looks like

This... I never understand what reads town about a 180 on someone. Like a true 180 not an early 180 or a 180 after PR claim. Like you're town reading me now that I've said I'd be okay to lynch Moz?? Why? You were 100% I was scum. Then a little later you were not so sure, and now that my wagon lost traction you 180 me and ask to lynch Moz??

Like I understand second guessing your read but you said 100% this needs to happen when you called for my lynch.

So to me there are three likely scenarios here

1. The most likely, BBT is scum and Moz is town so this is a flailing scum trying to deter us from lynching and force a mislynch.

2. Inbetween, BBT is scum and Moz is Scum and this bus if it went through would potentially clear BBT and then maf would NK me at some point or if BBT gets lynched distances Moz putting Moz in better light tomorrow.

3. Far less likely. Flailing town. Moz alignment doesn't matter because it doesn't relate to me or BBT as we're both Town here and scumlean Moz.

There are some other scenarios but those seem the most likely to happen were we to go and lynch BBT or Moz today.

I'm feeling BBT tho. If I'm wrong then I'm sorry BBT but I don't think you should have been so quick to 180 me after being so adamant before.

VOTE: BBT

This puts him to L-3.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Where exactly am I 'flailing'?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not town reading you because of you're willing to lynch Moz.

I'm town reading you for your response to being wagoned.

[Alisae]

Hawky I never said anything about silly percentages.
You're misreping me.
Unless you're not talking to me.

[Hawk]

Hawky I never said anything about silly percentages.
You're misreping me.
Unless you're not talking to me.

No I was talking about BBT. I just quoted you because I agree that BBTs 180 reads as caught scum.

[boring]

VOTE: BBT

That's L-2, I believe.

I think we can count Snarky in as an honorary vote on BBT too, if/when he comes back.

I'm pretty uncomfortable with the manner in which BBT left Hawk. If he had picked anyone but Moz, I might have struggled with it. But he picked Moz. (Please don't confuse this for a lean toward or against Moz). Moz is the person most people voting BBT have recently expressed a willingness (and readiness) to lynch. It brings the image to mind of a dog exposing his belly rather than baring his teeth. I just don't like it.

Fitz, your posts on Hawk seemed relatively fair, but I made my conclusion after finishing ISOs and reading his defense.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Hawk

This 100% needs to happen.

Hawk is doing just enough to coast by whilst we have 13 players around and where his absence is not as easily noticed.

His posts pretty much consist of nothing for the entire game to date.

Classic D1 scum behaviour - especially when you add in how chirpy he gets when talking about theory (scum always feel comfortable discussing theory over anything else).

Hawk is a great lynch for today. Let's do it!

Antihuman, what you just said makes no sense.

Nobody is offering Hawk as a 'compromise lynch', we're lynching him because he is scum.

Hawk's rebuttal was mostly theory talk and wishy-washy comments that didn't really go anywhere. If I feel the need to respond to it later today when I have more time, I'll do so.

I haven't dodged your question - you asked why he is being lynched for coasting. I'm saying that's not why he is being lynched. What more do you want me to say?

Also, the Hawk wagon is the first (?) wagon to face real resistance. That also tells me we're on the right track.

What about the Hawk lynch was 'easy'? Where did you get that from?

I detect a tad bit of buddying from Anti to boring here with the comments relating to SS.

I'm literally at work trying to form a reads list and responded to all your call outs for early game shit. Lynch me if you want but when I flip green you'll be no closer to winning if you really are town. Which I don't think you are.

How would you feel about lynching Moz?

I like Fitz and AH's words.

What do you like about Anti's posting?

What about their tone tells you they're town? Can you give specific examples of 'how they've been playing' that makes you think they're town as well please?

Gut and currently I can't.

Why not?

I'm convinced BBT v Hawk is TvS. Can't figure out who the scum is in this situation.
So I'ma just sheep this
VOTE: Hawk

How did you rule out TvT or SvS in this situation? What specifically tells out it is TvS?

Just for you Hawk

The first one is an opinion. He doesn't say awfully coincidental is Alignment Indicative you just infer it as a scumlean? Which it probably is but does it matter? What do you want him to say?

Well, you must not be reading very clearly. I explained my questions to Fitz and why it was important to me. You also made the same 'bad assumption' that I made because Fitz did not scumlean on LUV so my push on fitz comments about Uzi needing clarifying are evident from this post alone.

The last question is a little better but still kinda similar to the previous other people explaining their own reasoning. Also why would you call towards EMP explaining his own behavior as scum hunting or not?

Did you agree with FPs assessment that Emp was scum hunting? I didn't and I wanted FP to convince me his read was based on decent reasoning. I would call on EMP to explain his own behaviour because if EMP has come out and said that he didn't feel like he had started scum hunting at that point then it would have been extra difficult for FP to defend his position if the read was false.

Now lets look at bad votes and bad logic.

Vote for Grey in 190
This isn't following your line of thought at all. Shouldn't you be voting Fancy here? Why Grey? Why is this a serious wagon?

I'm pretty sure you're just parroting here and I'm pretty sure I already repsonded to LUV when he asked these exact same questions. Are you really reading or do you just think you have found a potential target to get your teeth in to and appear active? (<<< Is a rhetorical question before you accuse me of looking busy with questions).

Vote for Alisae in 209
No reasoning, just a naked vote. Some things could be inferred from context of posts surrounding the vote but it doesn't really give us any real motivations or logic behind the vote.

You're answering your own questions/queries in the very same post - it can easily be inferred from context as to why I voted Alisae.

Vote for Fitz in 216
Uhhh its been less than 7 posts why are you flipping so much with no reasoning or even backup logic. Like we weren't even talking about Fitz here. In fact Grey was on an Alisae lynch just a minute before which you had been sheeping! WTF?

I mean, once again, I feel like I was very clear with why I switched my vote onto Fitz. These questions have all been answered within the thread.

WHAT? This is him literally sheeping your vote on Grey less than 15 posts prior. Why is this vote awful? Why wouldn't your vote be considered awful then? Cause this might be considered opportunistic?

It's all about context and clearly you're missing it. Alisae went to reread thread or supposedly reevaluate the game. Instead of bringing any insightful analysis, he just goes back to jumping onto Grey when he thinks there is traction on that wagon.

I'd rather Lynch mozamis, though. He's done nothing to change my read since I voted him.

[

/quote]
I'll lynch Moz if Hawk will.

I'm not town reading you because of you're willing to lynch Moz.

I'm town reading you for your response to being wagoned.

You sure you're not? See how your train of thought goes from so confident to questioning to flipping to possibly flailing? Like your flip flop feels like flailing to me because the wagonext flipped on you after my response rather than anything else. Also I bolded where you said youd lynch Moz if I would... that type of statement is rather awkward when you're scumreading me so hard just prior...

[boring]

Also, I try not to be picky (because in the end of the day, it doesn't matter), but seeing myself described as "he" is a little confusing for me. I start reading sentences and have to backtrack, thinking someone has switched subjects without me realizing.

[Hawk]

Also, I try not to be picky (because in the end of the day, it doesn't matter), but seeing myself described as "he" is a little confusing for me. I start reading sentences and have to backtrack, thinking someone has switched subjects without me realizing.

I'm sorry if I mess up your pronoun boring. I'm sure I've done it. I'll remember you're a she. My bad. Also Alisae is a he for anyone who remarks he is a she cause I think I've seen that too.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I now seem confident in my town read.

I still don't see how that's flailing.

The speed of my wagon and lack of resistance should be telling you something. But I'mma let you work that out for yourself.