Open 791 | Forest Fire | Game Over

[clidd]

VOTE: Menalque

Good to see you again, Mr. Menalque



It is a hemorrhagic pleasure to be here, I believe I have played at some point with everyone.

[clidd]

I'm cognitively fatigued after my last two games, so I don't intend to do wallposts here.

[clidd]

It is a hemorrhagic pleasure to be here, I believe I have played at some point with everyone.

You haven't played with me - although you did replace me in one game.

"Hemorrhagic pleasure" ... is that a reference from somewhere?

It's a personal expression of mine.

I had the memory of playing with you somewhere, but I just replaced your slot:

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=81863

[clidd]

And I believe that bringing that information from months ago to memory is a slightly towny effort, because you tried to judge the truth of what I was saying by getting into an investigative mindset during the process.

[clidd]

This kind of mentality is usually more associated with a towny perception, considering that as scum the most common use of this process is rolefishing, and this would definitely not be possible through a redundant statement like post 15.

[clidd]

So yeah, kind of a 'good impression' probably.

[clidd]

hi everyone!! i know a lot of you but i also don't know a lot of you. c:

you know, i was thinking that like, stories about cops falling in love with convicts are super weird and overrated. but a firefighter and an arsonist? new, experimental, romantic.

VOTE: clidd

Second observation (just a feeling) is that I don't think Ydrasse would vote me this early.

Last game with her I remember engaging a lot with my scumreads, so Scum!Ydrasse, by default, would avoid getting my attention here based on previous experience with me (just a feeling²).

[clidd]

Third observation, If Menalque is town he will show that eventually (by being obvtown).

That's all, back later.

[clidd]

Second observation (just a feeling) is that I don't think Ydrasse would vote me this early.

Well... she did

i think the implication he was making was that scum!me wouldn't vote him? just missing a word in there.

Yes, but It's kind of wifom too. Scum!you could know that I wouldn't expect a vote from and read as towny.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[clidd]

And I'm not sure if Menalque is just not in the mood or if he's ignoring me.

Historically speaking, we don't have very pleasant records of past games. Almost always something bad happens.

Pedit: I think our interaction is tvt.

[clidd]

Yes, very good ^

[clidd]

I'm like semi in the mood

have you ever actually played against scum!me btw clidd?

No, I haven't. But I studied in past games, during the days, your scumgame.

It's kind of bad to say that (because you probably saw what happened to my wrong Skitter review), but I don't think the same error would happen to you.

[clidd]

Second observation (just a feeling) is that I don't think Ydrasse would vote me this early.

Well... she did

i think the implication he was making was that scum!me wouldn't vote him? just missing a word in there.

Yes, but It's kind of wifom too. Scum!you could know that I wouldn't expect a vote from and read as towny.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

honestly after one game together i was just picking you because your name was familiar and i was excited to play together again LOL. you think too highly of my Logical Processing.

You are someone smart, I don't see how that would be out of your range.

But I agree that cognitive effort in this sense is not always used for malicious purposes. Sometimes people play with intuition, without planning.

[clidd]

I'm like semi in the mood

have you ever actually played against scum!me btw clidd?

No, I haven't. But I studied in past games, during the days, your scumgame.

It's kind of bad to say that (because you probably saw what happened to my wrong Skitter review), but I don't think the same error would happen to you.

Okay, that's ringing a bell, I think I recall you doing analyses. Why do you think you wouldn't make the same error on me?

Because I was more right on you than Skitter, historically.

I don't think in any game I read Skitter correctly. And the experiences in the emotional field that I witnessed from you gave me more reinforcement in this aspect.

[clidd]

And I'm not saying you're scum here, Im saying that I know how do you play.

[clidd]

Ahhh

[clidd]

UNVOTE: Menalque

[clidd]

I don't want to cause you cognitive stress.

[clidd]

VOTE: Dunnstral

Plan b

[clidd]

Pedit: I think our interaction is tvt.

Clidd - which interaction are you talking about here?

Me and Ydrasse.

But I don't think the 'v' is applicable.

[clidd]

Lion, what is your opinion on Morning ?

[clidd]

I'm getting a better impression about Ydrasse.

[clidd]

Farren doesn't look very friendly and the tone presented so far is being more questioning, which I do not assimilate to scum.

I think he would care about image maintenance and post filler-friendly things as scum in this initial stage.

[clidd]

But I don't know.

[clidd]

I can see why you two are suspecting him and understand the reasons, but I don't think that his line of action would be something that he would want to follow as scum.

[clidd]

And by default, he would be more cautious in the first few interactions.

Shooting all over the place is weird to scum!He trying to simulate what town!He would do in this situation.

[clidd]

It can be a particularity of his profile or maybe just the way he plays.

By looking his meta we would know, but I don't think I want it.

[clidd]

By extension, my impression of him basically represents to me what the interpretation of Gamma's conduct means to you, Lion.

[clidd]

By extension, my impression of him basically represents to me what the interpretation of Gamma's conduct means to you, Lion.

Not in terms of intensity compared to my impression on Ydrasse (Ydrasse is more towny) but in the belief that the impression is, in fact, suggestive.

[clidd]

Friendly-filler was a guess, but it's basically something generic that I imagined Scum!You could do ^

[clidd]

By the way, did you get any impression from their fos on you ?

[clidd]

Spoiler:

@clidd - I think the couple of issues I have with Farren are that a few of his questions don't seem likely to advance the game in a useful way and are either blendy or stirring things - mainly 20 and 72. I also think the soft defense of Ydrasse may be a WK

Purpose of 20 - an excuse for engaging clidd, specifically. I think I'm going to need extra interactions with him to be able to read him properly.
Purpose of 72 - I didn't like the confidence level that 70 implied - at least if the post was sincere. But I did like the ... brashness, I guess? I was trying to figure out a way to divorce the two, figure out which is more indicative. Based on Gamma's answer, I'd say the brashness - which is a small plus.

As far as defending Ydrasse goes: describing her as "Friendly" was not a defense. It was more a probe on Menalque to see if he was advocating for "Friendly = Scummy," - which he was not. The only other post - 62 - yes, that's a small plus to Ydrasse, as it's something I'd noticed as well. Why would you think that constitutes white knighting?

Besides that.

[clidd]

That's interesting and not a bad thought, although you could make the opposite argument and say scum would be more inclined to look busy with questioning, "solving", n what not

Yes, but scum trying to look busy will try to hide that he's trying to look busy. Questioning people in parallel could also bring repercussions not so pleasant, in the sense of calling attention and etc.

[clidd]

By the way, did you get any impression from their fos on you ?

There's not much to tell from the generic "awkwardness" / tonal pings. It's a pretty common accusation, and it's pretty common for either Town or scum to pick up on it and say something about it. So nothing on Morning Tweet or Menalque.

Ask me again after GuiltyLion responds to me. His was the only one that went into depth.

Hum, ok.

[clidd]

I like you Farren, but try to have fun too (in your own way).

I don't know if being cold or playing seriously is something that gives you fun, but I particularly feel that my fun falls when I take games very seriously.

[clidd]

Regarding the parallel strat of ​​eliminating based on being strong or not, I don't think it's a good idea either.

I believe that scumread elimination is simpler and probably better.

[clidd]

I want to have a chat with Dunn when he's back.

[clidd]

I don't think I've ever played relaxed before, so the difference in behavioral comparison should suggest the impression you have.

[clidd]

Which is a good sign.

[clidd]

Last time I was town and got converted, so I don't think it's a good example of my scumgame.

[clidd]

It was frustrating, to be honest.

[clidd]

Yes, in that situation I had to act as surprised and lost with low effort, because from my pov the whole case he made (very good, by the way) needed to be absurd.

[clidd]

And I believe that the main difference from that to here is that I was trying to discredit his case there by being simple and direct, trying to convey more genuineness in what I was talking about (and give the impression of being surprised).

While here I don't really have anything to impact/gain by doing this, if it makes sense to you.

[clidd]

Partition was probably my third or four game as scum.

[clidd]

Menalque, I really don't think I can explain in a rational way to you why I want to play more ''relaxed''.

It is very stressful to play within my game pattern, so I want to use this game as a window to try to play in a different way, without such a big commitment (like researches, wallposts, etc.) and be able to have fun in the process. After the comeback of our last game (you know which game), I want some space to breathe, if that makes sense to you.

[clidd]

Ah, I don't want to talk about self-meta and other things Menalque, sorry. I already know which way this will take.

[clidd]

I just want to play relaxed, like I said.

It doesn't mean I'm not going to help, but that I'll play in a less wall-poster way.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[clidd]

I will try to explain it eventually, but as I said, I don't want to have to surprise the expectations of elucidating in the rational-irrefutable field the progression of my tiredness.

[clidd]

And it's toxic to use a personal reason to get some kind of advantage, in my opinion.

[clidd]

Correction: supply instead of surprise.

[clidd]

Don't worry, I think your reasons to fos me are towny, but it would be better if you try to read me on how I play.

[clidd]

do you have any thoughts on who might be scum so far btw?

PoE is telling Pine and Dunn. But it might change if they post something good.

[clidd]

After thinking for a while (on relax mode on), I just came to my first serious read: Menalque obvtown.

[clidd]

But I still thinking that we are going the wrong direction with Farren.

[clidd]

while it's hypocritical to say that like... activity =/= alignment it does feel like the towniest people right now are the people posting the most right now?

Activity is not necessarily AI, but the problem is letting players enter a coasting instance.

Draw the attention of those who have not posted/are not having a good activity (like what Menalque is doing) is an invitation for these people to participate and not enter the state I mentioned ^

[clidd]

And for those who didn't understand, Menalque's townreads are temporary. None of his reads are fixed and can change depending on the posts. Null is not the same as scumread in this scenario, but it does mean that he does not have an initial read/impression in the slot and needs to see that person posting to get some AI impression.

[clidd]

Second observation (just a feeling) is that I don't think Ydrasse would vote me this early.

Well... she did

Dunn, when I come back to this post, my impression is that the message I conveyed was not of such significant value to you.

Considering that you approached the post from an out of context angle (being a bit comical), what was your intention ? Of the things I said in the last pages (about Farren/Ydrasse) what was your impression ?

[clidd]

And for those who didn't understand, Menalque's townreads are temporary. None of his reads are fixed and can change depending on the posts. Null is not the same as scumread in this scenario, but it does mean that he does not have an initial read/impression in the slot and needs to see that person posting to get some AI impression.

By extension, if the null margin starts to make a good impressions and get changed to town-zone, there will be many towns in the same space, which will indicate to Menalque that his initial assumption was not correct and encourage a reevaluation of the slots to distinguish between the townreads and see which is probably wrong / right / etc.

The same is true for Farren, as his scumread is not fixed. If you are not townreading Menalque, just engage with him and clarify your doubts (in good faith).

[clidd]

Personally, my town-lock on him is basically due to the depth of thought that he had about my meta, which sounded to me as extremely genuine.

[clidd]

And the way he came to question me and at the same time think of solutions for that to happen in a way that he could draw an AI conclusion, without indirect shading or doing evasive maneuvers to make me look worse, was an indication that he was starting from a uninformed perspective (town) that doesn't know my alignment.

[clidd]

Well, that's all.

[clidd]

By the way, part of me thinks that maybe Town!Lion would open the game with a vote on Menalque/me/Ydrasse to sort us early, but this is a scant assumption. Not if our past game would have any effect on him. I don't know.

[clidd]

By the way, part of me thinks that maybe Town!Lion would open the game with a vote on Menalque/me/Ydrasse to sort us early, but this is a scant assumption. Not if our past game would have any effect on him. I don't know.

Given the first roll of the game - with a me / GuiltyLion scumteam - how do you think that would affect this?

If you are referring to a past game, where you two were scum, depending on the date he would be more inclined to vote for you first if the impression of that game was bigger than the past with me/Ydrasse/Menalque.

As I don't read minds, I don't find it so suggestive.

[clidd]

do you have any thoughts on who might be scum so far btw?

PoE is telling Pine and Dunn. But it might change if they post something good.

eh I don't like this post

how is it PoE based off of like two RL days, especially when it gives you the two lurkiest slots

PoE is indifferent to time.

[clidd]

Personally, my town-lock on him is basically due to the depth of thought that he had about my meta, which sounded to me as extremely genuine.

how do you think scum!Menalque would approach your slot, his thoughts about your meta have nothing to do with his alignment. this is a bs reason for a townread and I especially don't like that it comes right after he softened up on you

VOTE: clidd

Ok, but it doesn't change my read.

[clidd]

Can you do good questions, Lion ?

[clidd]

I don't think you're scum, but the way you seem to be reacting to me right now seems off in my opinion.

[clidd]

I am trying to assess whether you are confused in the current scenario/viewing behavioral discrepancy as a scum indicator.

My read on Menalque is valid to me, I don't think he would go that deeper to understand my meta.

[clidd]

And Scum!Menalque does not approach me directly, like he did here by approaching the subject clearly. He would slowly look at my behavior and use the lack of characteristic features of my towngame to develop suspicions in me without compromising much.

[clidd]

Are you reading the game, Lion ?

We aren't pushing lurkers to flash-elimination, we're making them post.

[clidd]

...

[clidd]

I'll take a break, back later.

[clidd]

I'm back.

[clidd]

I'm calmer now, sorry about earlier (Lion).

I feel a sense of persecution of my meta in every game I play and this is creating a certain amount of stress.

[clidd]

[clidd]

Ok, let me take a look at your questions again.

[clidd]

well like, I'm currently worried about clidd. that's mostly because I feel like he's trying to pre-emptively justify being not on-meta. which like, good very well be because he's burned out from the last couple of games and he's totally being truthful and just wants to have a chill game. in which case, great! I want him to have that too!

the last game I played with town!clidd (which I think was that Newbie you were in briefly) he posted this huge meta-analysis of my slot and I asked him whether he replicates that type of post as scum bc that's an insane amount of effort and he said he didn't think he could do it

so I see where you're coming from here, but I'm not sure he'd try to bring it up pre-emptively though. that feels a little brave as scum

Yes, it's true that I cannot manufacture fake analyzes on my scumgame with the same variety that I develop on my towngame. This is a fact.

The point is that I do not always feel so energetic or obliged to replicate this always, and the absence of this element is not necessarily a scumtell of my meta.

As an example of towngames exempt from detailed analysis:

viewtopic.php?t=83068&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=83045&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=83059&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Another point is that in the games above I was cognitively fatigued (as I am here) and so I did not feel comfortable to maintain the analytical standard.

What I am demonstrating here (wanting to play relaxed, without wallpost) should not be seen as AI due to a deviation in the curve of my meta, but as NAI, since similar situations have already occurred (which I mentioned in the three games above).

[clidd]

do you have any thoughts on who might be scum so far btw?

PoE is telling Pine and Dunn. But it might change if they post something good.

eh I don't like this post

how is it PoE based off of like two RL days, especially when it gives you the two lurkiest slots

The PoE (elimination process) that I mentioned above was based on the players who did not have enough material for me to have any good impression and stipulated that if they posted more (preferably something that I interpreted as AI), that impression would not remain.

In other words, I did a quick comparison of the slots and selected those that were not pleasing me in the period of time the question was asked (Dunn/Pine), as closest to the scum margin. Evidently, this response was an early conclusion to try to answer Menalque's specific question, which does not reflect a fixed thought but rather a momentary thought of who can be scum based on recent info.

If I were to give a more precise answer, I would say say that there is not enough evidence to measure who is scum or not. Which makes the premise above a guess ^

[clidd]

Personally, my town-lock on him is basically due to the depth of thought that he had about my meta, which sounded to me as extremely genuine.

how do you think scum!Menalque would approach your slot, his thoughts about your meta have nothing to do with his alignment. this is a bs reason for a townread and I especially don't like that it comes right after he softened up on you

VOTE: clidd

My personal interpretation of the sequence 147, 156, 157 and 168 is that he approached the subject in a clear way, never trying to imply that I would definitely be scum and giving me space so that I could clarify the impression he was feeling. I don't know how you see it, but I don't see bad faith on his part during the questioning process. It reflects much more an uninformed perspective that is trying to understand me than scum trying to forge a reason to eliminate me.

Another point is that it would be disappointing for me if he tried to use such a trick as scum, as it is a low level game conduct in my opinion.

Regarding the townread coming after his conclusion, this was because in my view the inference he had from our interaction made sense. If he acted drastically different, with a scumread or other questionable behavior towards me, I probably wouldn't have the same reaction. In other words, in my head, it made sense to town!He, through good faith, reach the conclusion that I was town, while scum!He (speculating) would be more inclined to sow more doubts.

[clidd]

I don't follow, what do you mean by good questions? Like you don't think my questions were good?

I don't agree with you that Menalque is obvtown here and I think the reason you gave for it doesn't feel all that rigorous, which I would expect more from you. As either alignment Menalque can speak genuinely about your meta. It looks to me like you were happy with the conclusion he reached in 175 and townread him back as a result, I can't grok why you'd be confident he's town off that.

I also don't vibe with scumreads on the two lowest activity slots on the basis of PoE here, it's very likely that one of the more active posters is scum trying to establish a good foothold in the game

Whether or not to find my reason genuine is a particular cognitive process of yours, so I will not comment.

It's possible that Scum!Menalque could talk about my meta, but I

don't

think that's the case here.

I don't think that the most active players are more likely to be scum than the quieter ones (kind of like when you won newbie 1995 by coasting as scum, so you might know that).

[clidd]

My read on Menalque is valid to me, I don't think he would go that deeper to understand my meta.

maybe can you explain which posts/points were deeper than scum!Menalque could or would post?

I think if you're saying "why would he go through the effort" I can better understand that read, but it read to me like you initially said it was the genuine-ness that made it town.

Effort is one of the elements that I used to reach the conclusion of *genuineness*.

[clidd]

Are you reading the game, Lion ?

We aren't pushing lurkers to flash-elimination, we're making them post.

???

Menalque asked if you had any thoughts on who might be scum, you said Pine/Dunn. No one is saying anything about a flash-elimination, you were asked about YOUR reads and those were the ones you gave

I explained this in one of the posts above.

My impression is that you were sending the message that I was trying to eliminate slots with low activity and using scumread through the post number as an excuse, but I believe there was a communication failure between us.

So I figured you might be drunk or something, but you probably just didn't understand from where I was coming.

[clidd]

Actually, I might take a step back and consider Menalque a really-really-really strong townread.

Lion is right in the sense that I cannot have such an early conclusion of lock-town, considering that this instance does not allow me to do any kind of reevaluation.

[clidd]

Morning is interpreting my behavior correctly.

So she is very good at reading me or has information about my alignment (scum). But I am more inclined to the town side, considering that her posts in general are giving me a good feeling by tone (no, I will not do a dissertation to explain why).

[clidd]

So:

1. I still want to talk with Dunn (and Pine) when they got back. I need to check something.

2. I plan to comment on your posts later (Farren), but you're giving me a good impression so far.

3. And in relation to Lion, I need to take a better look inside his pov. He's giving me mix impressions (but confusion is towny in his context).

[clidd]

There’s a lot of meta talk on the last few pages that is going way over my head

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[clidd]

The thing is: Town!Clidd does 'x' things, Scum!Clidd doesn't do 'x' things, but there are games where Town!Clidd doesn't do the 'x' things that the Town!Clidd by default does, so how are you going to say if Neutral!Clidd is town or scum by doing or not 'x' things ?

[clidd]

Which is why I want to be evaluated per play, not meta.

[clidd]

And meta is not always so conclusive. I remember making this mistake when I tried to read you (Gamma) on Mini 2132:

viewtopic.php?p=11789861#p11789861

[clidd]

Not conclusive when used without the support of something extra like reads/impressions/gamestate etc ^

[clidd]

[clidd]

Oh no.

[clidd]

Another point is that it would be disappointing for me if he tried to use such a trick as scum, as it is a low level game conduct in my opinion.

I hope it isn't because of this or something ^

[clidd]

Actually, forget what I said.

It wasn't just in this game that he got replaced.

[clidd]

Welcome Miss Isis o/

[clidd]

Historically speaking, we don't have very pleasant records of past games. Almost always something bad happens.

Searching for a replacement for Menalque.

This is a curse..

[clidd]

I don't think I see the exact reason, but it struck me as "shrinking facts to fit theories" than "shrinking theories to fit facts".

I imagine it must make sense from the angle you are looking at, but as I said, the way I am playing tends to make players who have played with me see me much more easily as scum than town. (Morning is an exception).

Another point is that I see that you are town, just like Menalque. So I know that none of this was formulated in bad faith, but even so, I don't know if I have the energy to rationally explain why it is wrong, as I would have to elucidate some topics in parallel (and as I also mentioned, I want to play a chill game).

So what I can say is: reevaluate.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[clidd]

I don't think I can lessen the paranoia towards myself, so I will try to visualize some PoE to be useful in some way.

[clidd]

So:

1. I still want to talk with Dunn (and Pine) when they got back. I need to check something.

2. I plan to comment on your posts later (Farren), but you're giving me a good impression so far.

3. And in relation to Lion, I need to take a better look inside his pov. He's giving me mix impressions (but confusion is towny in his context).

Which brings me to my agenda ^

[clidd]

I kind of see Lion coming back commenting on a set of my posts.

But already anticipating: I will evade these future posts. I want to talk with other people at the moment.

[clidd]

I'll try, Miss Isis.

[clidd]

[clidd]

I kind of expected that ^

Menalque leaving aggravated this scenario too.

[clidd]

I'm pretty sure Menalque got banned for lashing out at a player who replaced into his game while blacklisted ontop of nasty posts from the original game that generated the grudge. Both completed games. The mods take a long time to settle on stuff.

Six week signup ban would have been better than two week mafia ban, it kind of sucks to punish the bystanders in games that get their integrity disrupted.

Well, practically in every game I had with him there was always a toxic episode in some way.

In particular, I think Menalque is very good as a player, but he has some problems in the emotional area.

[clidd]

Second observation (just a feeling) is that I don't think Ydrasse would vote me this early.

Well... she did

Dunn, when I come back to this post, my impression is that the message I conveyed was not of such significant value to you.

Considering that you approached the post from an out of context angle (being a bit comical), what was your intention ? Of the things I said in the last pages (about Farren/Ydrasse) what was your impression ?

Dunn, I'm not sure if you answered this.

[clidd]

But I didn't say that she couldn't do analysis as scum.

My observation is that she is on the right track for having correct reads or is just scum and already knows my alignment, so it would be easy for her to find reasons to have me as a townread.

[clidd]

Morning is interpreting my behavior correctly.

So she is very good at reading me or has information about my alignment (scum). But I am more inclined to the town side, considering that her posts in general are giving me a good feeling by tone (no, I will not do a dissertation to explain why).

[clidd]

UNVOTE: Morning Tweet
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I was going to switch to Ydrasse next, but I saw something that I thought had ... a connection, I guess? ... to a part of the gamestate, and I want to see if it develops on its own without me poking at it first.

Gamma, I saw one brief moment where you put yourself out there - and then you withdrew. Got anything else like that?

+Town points

[clidd]

I am present; this is my last day of workplace insanity for the summer. It's all downhill starting tomorrow.

Hey Mr. Pine, I need to talk with you too (when you get back)

[clidd]

I kind of want(and would like help) to sort the pool (Dunn/Pine/Gamma), because if they're town, there is a chance that we're dealing with a deep wolf.