Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[Amazonian Legends]

Yo

VOTE: implosion

hey dude!

[Amazonian Legends]

So this should finally be the game where I make it to the top of ffery's elusive town town section. Because even if she has niggles about me, Cabd can read penguin and that removes all doubts.

Little victories.

[Amazonian Legends]

Town: Ydrasse

one down

[Amazonian Legends]

Such confidence in our alignment, though~

I was counting on someone going oops perspective slip there.

That it's you is concerning.

[Amazonian Legends]

No pressure, Cabd.

And yeah, doesn't matter if you're town or scum yet. You're welcome to fake a scum read on us, but you're signing your own elim wagon the next day if so. And I don't expect it to take you long enough to read us for endgame shenanigans to kick in.

--PA, who will probably sign

[Amazonian Legends]

Hi concerning, I'm Dad.

That's like six and it's not even ten days into 2022.

Such confidence in our alignment, though~

I was counting on someone going oops perspective slip there.

That it's you is concerning.

is it bad that i thought it was kind of valid

also what if we didn't slayers gambit on page 1

What, you like RVS?

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

You're welcome to fake a scum read on us, but you're signing your own elim wagon the next day if so

huh?

Missed this. I'm putting BoP on morph to not misread us, and I'm saying that if they claim to scumread us and get us miselim'd, they should be the next day's elim with prejudice.

But we'll see what develops. Like you say, it's page one.

--PA

P-edit: pirate posting will be autocoted tyvm

[Amazonian Legends]

Such confidence in our alignment, though~

I was counting on someone going oops perspective slip there.

That it's you is concerning.

is it bad that i thought it was kind of valid

also what if we didn't slayers gambit on page 1

Why are you so wooden?

I only think that you think a perspective slip is valid if you're grasping and that makes me sad.

Uh slayer's gambit? I wasn't slayer's gambiting, I was making a semi-serious joke. The type of joke at the beginning that someone always accuses me of something random for, so I expected it but not from them.

[Amazonian Legends]

Meaning I missed the joke in return?

[Amazonian Legends]

If that is the case. I thought it was ffery and I thought if you guys are scum, she's gonna fake paranoia on us.

[Amazonian Legends]

also you guys are ruining rvs. I went and made a couple serious posts before page 10

[Amazonian Legends]

or I'm ruining rvs by making serious posts rather.

I'll shut up now.

[Amazonian Legends]

Why are you so wooden?

am i? i feel pretty loose so far!

you might be! maybe I'm a stick in the mud.

[Amazonian Legends]

...there is no game allotment. Get outta here with that.

implosion, I like (have we played together?). Ydrasse, I like because I'm easily flattered. Cephrir, I actually do like and think he's about a million times happier to be here than his scum game.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

i'm not sure if i've ever actually scumread tammy. On the other hand i'm not sure if she's ever been scum in a game i'm in >.>

Not 100% sure ofc since it's been like, what. Centuries since we've played a game. same with nsg and morph.

I don't think you've ever seen me as scum, no. Last night when I realized you were in the game, I checked to make sure that I remembered who you were correctly and looked at the last travesty of a game we played together and we had a discussion about that lol. That game was over 3 years ago and I've had a couple long mafia breaks since then.

[Amazonian Legends]

oh cephrir dreads being scum now?

[Amazonian Legends]

BoP is gonna work both ways here.

Mmkay, which pairing do you think has the highest BoP?

PA --> Cabd
PA --> ffery
Tammy --> Cabd
Tammy --> ffery

I think 'dreads' is stronger than I'd say, but I haven't seen a recent happy Cephrir scum game. Could vary based on teammates, but even Bloodstained with a good team and playing with his other half he was grumpy.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

i have come to dread red pms lately because my rate of rolling it in the past 2 years has been like 70% or higher

I dread red pms because I do and because since I rarely play anymore it's been eons and I don't think I remember what to do anymore.

Also shirou - I, Tammy, will never remember to sign. Well probably not. I don't really sign anyway, and I think we'll be easy enough to tell apart. But, I was going to make a cutesy signature and refer to myself as Penthesilea and I forgot to even do that. :/

[Amazonian Legends]

Interesting. Wonder if Cabd agrees.

Cabd --> me
ffery --> Tammy
Cabd --> Tammy
ffery --> me

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I also know Tammy is recognized as a very strong scum hunter if I'm not mistaken...

She's in the top 90% of scumhunters on site, dontcha know!

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Hey GuiltyLion! Still love the avatar.

What do you expect from Ydrasse this game?

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

To be clear, having laid out my stance with morph, I don't plan or want to center the whole game around us

flirting

sorting one another. That would be rude to the other eleven players here.

Although if that's how I appeal to people, wow do I need to work on my social skills.

implosion, any other scum reads besides Tammy with no reasoning behind them?

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I was trying to figure out how the fuck that worked but then figured it was neuter-things.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Hey GuiltyLion! Still love the avatar.

What do you expect from Ydrasse this game?

--PA

Why ask this?

Why did post 110 in particular need to be poked at?

Just genuinely wondering because I’m confused as to what the end goal of the question is.

Why do I need an end goal?

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I also know Tammy is recognized as a very strong scum hunter if I'm not mistaken...

No pressure!

I like my other heads response though

[Amazonian Legends]

Why are you so wooden?

am i? i feel pretty loose so far!

It was interesting that you stepped into the middle of the dance, though!

you know what they say, it takes three to thrango.

Did you get anything useful from it?

maybe a tiny townread on amazons? i expect tammy to be an easy read for me anyways (despite the fact i don't really know what her scum game looks like, shh) so probably not THAT useful

I might not be as easy of a read as I used to be. General approach is the same I think, but for the most part the over emotional part isn’t there anymore.

I don’t know what my scum game looks like either and I’m pretty terrified at what it will look like.

[Amazonian Legends]

You're welcome to fake a scum read on us, but you're signing your own elim wagon the next day if so

huh?

Missed this. I'm putting BoP on morph to not misread us, and I'm saying that if they claim to scumread us and get us miselim'd, they should be the next day's elim with prejudice.

But we'll see what develops. Like you say, it's page one.

--PA

P-edit: pirate posting will be autocoted tyvm

BoP is gonna work both ways here.

I wanted to poke at this, and was waiting for you and penguin to be done, but I’ve been following along a bit while working and I think my thoughts there deflated but I’d been sitting on it to talk about it so I’m mostly posting this thought for my brain to let it go.

I also did not like fua’s first post.

[Amazonian Legends]

It's easy to feel like helping out when you relate to someone/something huh...

Strange add-on, but I also feel pocketed so I think it’s fine.

If you feel pocketed why is it fine?

[Amazonian Legends]

VOTE: Shirou

Very self-aware. Almost too self-aware, if I do say so myself.

Why is that scum indicative?

[Amazonian Legends]

I thought you came off townier than the Amazonian Legends hydra, it seemed like their play was more centered on appealing to you than vice versa, but I don't know if I have fully formed Takes on it yet since there's always gonna be some level of inherent weirdness in how much experience/familiarity you all collectively have with each other and how it needs to be acknowledged/addressed up front regardless of your alignment combination. Honestly for D1 I might just defer to how you two hydras each sort eachother but I'll jump in if something feels off to me

I know you had a conversation about part of this, but can you explain what you mean by appealing to?

[Amazonian Legends]

You're welcome to fake a scum read on us, but you're signing your own elim wagon the next day if so

huh?

Missed this. I'm putting BoP on morph to not misread us, and I'm saying that if they claim to scumread us and get us miselim'd, they should be the next day's elim with prejudice.

But we'll see what develops. Like you say, it's page one.

--PA

P-edit: pirate posting will be autocoted tyvm

BoP is gonna work both ways here.

I wanted to poke at this, and was waiting for you and penguin to be done, but I’ve been following along a bit while working and I think my thoughts there deflated but I’d been sitting on it to talk about it so I’m mostly posting this thought for my brain to let it go.

I also did not like fua’s first post.

what did you want to talk about?

It felt off to me in the moment and I wondered if you were posturing because I don’t think the BoP expectation is equal. I don’t think that Cabd messes up penguins alignment but I don’t think penguins reads Cabd in return as well as he reads her. For my part, I don’t think I’m likely to hold a scumread on you guys for long if you’re town unless I’m in one of those drowning in paranoia states, but I’m not like 100% I’d get you guys right.

You might expect me too though and in that case it’s something you would say as town. But there was a niggle that you could be scum trying to force us off our footing. But you made a post a few pages back I liked and started thinking it was option one.

[Amazonian Legends]

Do you have any uninteresting thoughts about the game?

i don't have any idea of how to play the setup really, or if there's some specific strategy for this setup that would cause it to be played any way different than a regular one.
i lean town on fua.
this may sound like some kind of attack or affront or something given that i'm saying it to you (it's not meant to be), but i wonder if it would be best for town / for overall game health if the top posters were to sit back for a while. there are still people who haven't posted and it's always daunting to arrive to there already being like ten pages, and in general it might help get reads on some of the lower frequency posters. like i said, that isn't a recommendation – it's actually just me wondering, perhaps the distribution of posting is the reason why nobody seems to have any serious reads. or maybe it's just because we've somehow gotten onto really non-revealing conversation topics, who knows.

What’s the town read based on?

I’m trying to put my finger on what I don’t like about the active poster thing. I mean yeah it’s generally good advice, but it doesn’t feel like it fits in this game. What serious reads are people supposed to have by page 7?

[Amazonian Legends]

Ah, but it's so simple. Clearly one of the hydras is evil, so if we just tunnel vision one of them everything will work out fine.

Hello!

neuterhalf is the cat who cackles and revs up the wood chipper. spayhalf is the cat who invites you over for a spot of polonium tea.

Getting some big TOWNVIBES from this post. That means Amazonian is confscum! Trust me on this one, I have never made a single incorrect read in my life.

VOTE: Amazonian Legends

... for real though, I need to finish reading through the first 7 pages. Give me a moment.

What was big townvibes about that post?

[Amazonian Legends]

Ah! I was like I’ve had some weird town vibes on posts before but that one was confusing.

Carry on.

[Amazonian Legends]

Well at least with all the mech talk, I understand the setup. I either read it wrong or glanced and assumed lol.

[Amazonian Legends]

I find 172 and the ensuing vote by fua to be interesting here. Seems like myself and fua are the current most SR'd people, but I'm not really sure what that means at this point in the game. In my notes it goes anyways.

What do you think about the vote and reasoning?

[Amazonian Legends]

I find 172 and the ensuing vote by fua to be interesting here. Seems like myself and fua are the current most SR'd people, but I'm not really sure what that means at this point in the game. In my notes it goes anyways.

What do you think about the vote and reasoning?

[Amazonian Legends]

I find 172 and the ensuing vote by fua to be interesting here. Seems like myself and fua are the current most SR'd people, but I'm not really sure what that means at this point in the game. In my notes it goes anyways.

What do you think about the vote and reasoning?

If you want my honest opinion, and do not take this as instant FoS as I think it would be silly to do this over a fairly minor incident, but my gut reaction says that this looks well... a little manufactured. It certainly doesn't seem like a random vote, but it feels like either or both sides could have manufactured a reason to vote.

Of course, without any other context, this could also mean nothing since it's just as likely fua is town and found a reason to vote someone in what has otherwise been (from my perspective) a content thin game so far.

I always want an honest opinion! Thanks! I’m gonna hold off talking about what I thought about the vote until fun has a chance to respond to my question.

[Amazonian Legends]

If you want my honest opinion, and do not take this as instant FoS as I think it would be silly to do this over a fairly minor incident, but my gut reaction says that this looks well... a little manufactured. It certainly doesn't seem like a random vote, but it feels like either or both sides could have manufactured a reason to vote.

this is why i sometimes get scumread for squirrelly language isn't it.

Is it like looking in a mirror?

[Amazonian Legends]

VOTE: Shirou

Very self-aware. Almost too self-aware, if I do say so myself.

Why is that scum indicative?

Scum tend to be very self-conscious about how they come off to others since, you know. It’s kind of their job to hide their alignment.

How do you distinguish between self-awareness as a personality trait and a scum trait? What about his self-awareness indicated scum concerned with how they come across?

[Amazonian Legends]

It is quite a glove. I'm getting there, but the catch up is still a moving target for us. I anticipate getting more from interactions elsewhere, but I like what I see.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

[Amazonian Legends]

Day Masonize: Amazon

Ready to locktown as of 257.

Let me know when you two nerds catch up to our read~

I think I could easily make 257 as scum though.

[Amazonian Legends]

I owe a response to fua and have other thoughts that will wait until I’m out of bed and not on my phone.

[Amazonian Legends]

IT'S BACK!

[Amazonian Legends]

It’s the open acknowledgment of self-awareness coupled with his LAMIST attitude and admission of uselessness that made me suspicious of him to begin with. The part I quoted in particular stands out as pretty odd to me.

I don't hate this response. The reason I poked at it is because self-aware accusations are common easy tactics that scum use to scum read people with. It's typically a rather shallow reason to scum read people for especially considering it's more personality based than alignment based and some people are more self-aware as town than scum.

What do you think of him after your conversation this morning? (If you said, I missed it but I'm behind, so I'll see it as I catch up.

His posting just comes across rather earnest to me, and sure it has all the features you mentioned but I don't think it's coming from scum.

It was also hard to parse your side of the conversation with shirou this morning. I'm not sure if that's due to a language barrier, lack of experience or just a general talking past each other. There were a couple posts where I liked your fire or snark though, so I don't think it's intentional muddying the waters, but uh this is to preemptively say that I felt that some things got lost in translation and if I ask you a bunch of questions, I'm not trying to pick at you but trying to understand things that weren't clear.

[Amazonian Legends]

If you want my honest opinion, and do not take this as instant FoS as I think it would be silly to do this over a fairly minor incident, but my gut reaction says that this looks well... a little manufactured. It certainly doesn't seem like a random vote, but it feels like either or both sides could have manufactured a reason to vote.

this is why i sometimes get scumread for squirrelly language isn't it.

Is it like looking in a mirror?

a little bit. i found myself wondering why this simple statement was couched in so much uncertainty and wondering if there was scum motivation for that, then remembered that i do this all the time.

Yeah, I do that too. Realizing that he's a super new player, I'm starting to think it's new awkwardness than a huge scum tell.

[Amazonian Legends]

@Amazons

when your heads are in the game and caught up, we'll probably be ready to toss some ideas around.

It's gonna take me a while to catch up as I'll be catching up while getting work done.

[Amazonian Legends]

I never mind if people comment on their own slot!

[Amazonian Legends]

Do you have any uninteresting thoughts about the game?

i don't have any idea of how to play the setup really, or if there's some specific strategy for this setup that would cause it to be played any way different than a regular one.
i lean town on fua.
this may sound like some kind of attack or affront or something given that i'm saying it to you (it's not meant to be), but i wonder if it would be best for town / for overall game health if the top posters were to sit back for a while. there are still people who haven't posted and it's always daunting to arrive to there already being like ten pages, and in general it might help get reads on some of the lower frequency posters. like i said, that isn't a recommendation – it's actually just me wondering, perhaps the distribution of posting is the reason why nobody seems to have any serious reads. or maybe it's just because we've somehow gotten onto really non-revealing conversation topics, who knows.

What’s the town read based on?

I’m trying to put my finger on what I don’t like about the active poster thing. I mean yeah it’s generally good advice, but it doesn’t feel like it fits in this game. What serious reads are people supposed to have by page 7?

NSG - I don't really care if you don't answer the second question, but I would like the first one answered.

[Amazonian Legends]

I thought you came off townier than the Amazonian Legends hydra, it seemed like their play was more centered on appealing to you than vice versa, but I don't know if I have fully formed Takes on it yet since there's always gonna be some level of inherent weirdness in how much experience/familiarity you all collectively have with each other and how it needs to be acknowledged/addressed up front regardless of your alignment combination. Honestly for D1 I might just defer to how you two hydras each sort eachother but I'll jump in if something feels off to me

I know you had a conversation about part of this, but can you explain what you mean by appealing to?

It felt like you had a goal of establishing that you were going to scumread them if they scumread you, and your posts demonstrated that intention, whereas their opening was more just reacting to your entry.

"appealing" isn't the best word, I don't mean "appealing" in a literal sense, but I mean "appealing" in the sense that your posts were proactively designed around sending a message to them - does that make sense?

Yeah that makes sense.

[Amazonian Legends]

so 238 essentially just says "hey look everyone i have handwritten notes" since there is no actual reason for it to exist.

this post in particular

I could definitely imagine it being town in Ceph's spot trying to pressure a questionable slot, but it's just ever so slightly too aggressive for me. like I can see where Ceph is coming from calling out that the "notes" comment is a bit LAMISTy, but it's not too hard for me to imagine a town!Tejate writing the post and thinking it might be useful, he feels genuine to me

morph (and penguin)

What did you guys think about this? Both the original post by Ceph and the analysis by Guilty Lion?

[Amazonian Legends]

I kinda want to become someone that rarely throws around his vote, so that when I do finally vote someone it's supposed to be given proper attention.

As a founding member of the hold onto your vote club, I approve of this message. Be prepared to receive a bunch of shit for it though!

[Amazonian Legends]

Just for you, I will retroactively attempt to will a town PM into existence.

>>

[Amazonian Legends]

If you need me to name something I think her suggestion of the top posters sitting back for a while is a good idea, especially since we have a person who hasn’t posted still.

heh, this is the main thing I disliked from NSG. It's a very easy thing for scum to post; makes it look like they care about the game oh so much. Sure town can do it too, but something about the way she worded it felt wrong and kinda cookie cutter.

[Amazonian Legends]

actually though I am thinking fua's jump in is worse than Ceph's push

I townread Tejate, but I can imagine Ceph being town misfiring on him. I think if that was a T-T spat, fua's play vibes like scum looking for a distraction outside the scrutiny their own slot is receiving, and leveraging Tejate/Ceph to do it

VOTE: fua

Yes, I want a distraction from my own slot, so instead of enlisting my buddies to do something or waiting my turn, I just hop in balls-out into a pre-existing feud right after people express suspicion of me, because I'm eager to get away from the pressure of zero votes. You have solved the case very early into day 1. I'm not sure what you think my level of experience is or how well-versed I am in how to play this game, but this isn't it chief.

this post is not a good look, my vote stays

you feel extremely defensive, leans on sarcasm extra thick to try to imply that voting/scumreading you is dumb, and is the implication here supposed to be that scum you would never hop into any feud? How else would scum find things to push on or reasons to scumread people?

Where did the "solved the case" nonsense come from? Did my post give you the impression I felt I had "already solved"? Why?

*twitch*

[Amazonian Legends]

Also I'm gonna have to break out the benadryl if I see many more "LAMISTy" references.

this game is already fodder for a buzzword drinking game lol

[Amazonian Legends]

I very desperately want to call Shirou super town but I feel like he's the kind of slot that I incorrectly townread sometimes.

I like tejate/ceph/nQ/ydrasse for town so far.

Can you expand on your nq townread?

[Amazonian Legends]

so 238 essentially just says "hey look everyone i have handwritten notes" since there is no actual reason for it to exist.

this post in particular

I could definitely imagine it being town in Ceph's spot trying to pressure a questionable slot, but it's just ever so slightly too aggressive for me. like I can see where Ceph is coming from calling out that the "notes" comment is a bit LAMISTy, but it's not too hard for me to imagine a town!Tejate writing the post and thinking it might be useful, he feels genuine to me

morph (and penguin)

What did you guys think about this? Both the original post by Ceph and the analysis by Guilty Lion?

When the post hit the thread, we snorted at Ceph dusting off the Titus handwritten notes tell. And we don't think it's a valid observation in this case.

I don't really have an objection to GL's characterization of Ceph, beyond my general concern that many of his stances so far feel overblown given the data in the thread.

Also I'm gonna have to break out the benadryl if I see many more "LAMISTy" references.

Ceph's post there had a little kick to it, and I was trying to remember if that was more likely to come from ceph!town than ceph!scum. It's been so long, but I thought I remember it being more likely to come from town him?

Anyway, I found gl's post there about it a bit scummy, but then I just read through his back and forth with fua, and I liked his posts there, so now I"m kinda meh on thinking this was a scummy post.

I'm caught up but need to step away and finish some work, so I'll be back shortly.

[Amazonian Legends]

{amazons}
{Shirou}
{fua, Tejate} -- ffery thought about having fua up one, but it's probably just all the Axe fragrance wafting through the thread
--------------
the rest of you fucks
--------------
{NSG, ydrasse}

Ydrasse because she's kinda looking like she doesn't really want to be active in the thread, and because her numberq vote looked like one of those bold moves she sometimes makes as scum, like she was hurrying to be at the front of the town parade.

NSG is also giving off thread-avoidance vibes and we're still not too thrilled with the way she threw herself in front of our comment to fua. hobnail boots, etc., though it wasn't exactly a line of questioning.

If ydrasse is scum and we're not just being paranoid, then GL's easy townread there after the dancegame becomes a point of great interest.

not enough data to make an educated guess, but kinda scum-leaning tea, and kinda townleaning imaginality

I liked ydrasse's thread presence yesterday, and I liked that at two times - with tejate and nq - she voted just as I was thinking they were suspicious. That's a terrible take I know, but I still liked it. I know she's started posting more now, but I have a headache and I'm going to bed, so reading that other than a skim will have to wait. Vacation is over, so I need to get back on a schedule.

Both heads are suspicious of nsg. Penguin doesn't like that she said the thing about holding off on posting and then didn't post herself. That doesn't bother me so much as I didn't like the post itself, and the interactions with you regarding fua felt wrong. Like it felt like a wrist slap rather than an actual defense or figuring you out. I pondered that it was a scum/scum conversation over fua because something didn't sit right. It just didn't feel like town talking to someone whose alignment she didn't know. I was hoping there'd be more today to see if I was chasing shadows here.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Might follow along and post again if I can't sleep, but hopefully you don't see me until tomorrow. Don't think Penguin is going to get a chance to post tonight.

[Amazonian Legends]

Sorry, yesterday was a bad day for my activity here. After eyes glazing over yesterday and catching up-ish today, here's where I stand (haven't talked to Tammy fresh yet):

Town:
Tejate Raichu
fua
Shirou

Nothing too wild here. I was scum reading fua during the interminably long back and forth something like 15-20 pages ago, but that may have been annoyance at having to read all that.

D3 pass:
morph the cat (Cabd & fferyllt): town read, but respecting their scum range. Happy to chat as they like.

Townlean:
Cephrir

Nothing to push me off my initial impression, but I'm not sure I generally articulate why I read Cephrir as I do very well.

Moving up:
Ydrasse

I like her tone, and I don't see much agenda here in contrast to morph's read. Tonight she's one of the players whose ISO I plan to read through for a better feel.

Need more from me or them:
implosion
imaginality
redtea

The latter two are obvious, but implosion is where I need more from me. I would like to go find that scum game we apparently had together, but MS search is being a jerkface. I also have trouble remembering what stances implosion has been taking, which again is a me-thing.

Moving down:
GuiltyLion
numberQ

Stale reads here, plus I feel like they've both trailed off into being tangents. GL's ISO is another I need to reread more closely, but numberQ's looks like a boxer dancing around the edge of the ring. Nothing lands or stays in his focus. GL is mostly a product of the above town reads and being suspicious of the other side of the engagement. Again, ISO reread needed.

Scum:
northsidegal

I'm not voting here because I want to give her some room to post and do something, but I really hate the whole 'stop talking and let the thread posters diversify' followed by a (likely known?) period of zero posts. It's a pro-town move that costs her nothing.

Probably not much more for me until late tonight, but I can phonepost a bit on and off.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I feel like crap (tested negative today though), so I'm not sure how much I'm going to get done today before I pretend to play D&D in a bit. I've skimmed a little while at work, but I did want to be a bit self-indulgent and address something first.

Implosion - Yes, you used to be able to town bin me super early. Like pretty much within my first couple of posts.

Ceph - I know you want more from me and probably expect something different too.

I'm sorry (and not sorry) that I'm not as easy to read as I used to be. I'm not the same in real life person I was 6 months ago, let alone the same mafia player I was years ago. I can't be that emotionally invested or play with the same devotion or intensity I used to play with. It sucked. I was a triggered mess who wasn't pleasant in the game or out of the game a lot of the time, and getting that invested affected my real life negatively. I took a several year break, and when I came back I decided the only way I could play mafia is if I don't get so invested that it impacts my life, and I have to not care so much about being townread or being non-miselimable. (And having a good number of people tell me their goal was to be the first person to hand me my first true miselim caused massive paranoia all the time.).

I have failed at that a couple times, but I am working towards playing the game in a way that works for me and is fun. I know that makes me harder to read if you were dependent on the other stuff, and I'm sorry about that. But, if you read me based on how I look at the game and people, a lot of that hasn't changed. I imagine I'll do more as the game progresses that will be satisfactory, but I've never been much of a first half of day one player.

And if you're like oh Tammy that's easy to say, I do have recent games. My most recent game is the Trust Fall game that NumberQ modded a few months ago. And I'm not saying you have to townread me because my recent games look like this; I'm just saying adjust your expectations because I'm not the same as I used to be. I am town here though, and maybe if you're lucky you'll get to see what a travesty my game will be when I finally roll scum again lol.

To the point about only interacting with morph or whatever ceph said, and shirou's comment about dancing around morph, sure there was some early interaction that was a lot, but I've interacted with most people here, so I'm not real sure what that point was about.

[Amazonian Legends]

when i read through your iso it felt like there was a lot of questioning or like, "why do this"/"what gain from it" but it wasn't quite like a fos but sort of just... a presence.

This right here is what started my suspicion on numberq. I read a post that was like "what does shirou gain..." and it felt kinda sideline snipy which triggered my suspicion. Not all of his posts were like that but Ydrasse pointing out the same thing that I had wondered about is again why I like ydrasse and want to think she's town. Which again is a terrible dangerous trap I should not fall into, but there it is.

[Amazonian Legends]

And this (plus the rest of the discussion he had with me after this) helped me solidify the SR. He oscillated between disproportionately hostile and dismissive.

Hostile: 288, 312
Dismissive: 277, 294, 296 (actually a response to fua)
Hostile AND dismissive: 324

Note how nowhere in there is a single actual refutation of my read, just consistently saying that I have no reason to come after him. My reasoning at the time was of course mostly gut based. But then why have that kind of reaction to it? It's not scummy to have an emotional reaction and it's not scummy to argue against a scumread on you. What's scummy is the dissonance between them in Ceph's posting here.

Okay the only thing that really makes sense to me here is your argument that there's not a refutation of the read but a focus on there being a lack of reasoning or not good enough reasoning. I'm not sure how much weight it has, but I understand that bit at least.

But why are you including hostile and dismissive as part of your reasoning that he's scum? Town can be extremely hostile and dismissive when incorrectly scum read, and none of those actually feel hostile. Do you really think these things are more likely to come from scum?

[Amazonian Legends]

I don't, however, agree with the ultimate reason for Ydrasse's vote on number if I'm understanding it correctly. Number's been actively suspecting Ceph for some time, so it wasn't a surprise when he voted him.

[Amazonian Legends]

I don't, however, agree with the ultimate reason for Ydrasse's vote on number if I'm understanding it correctly. Number's been actively suspecting Ceph for some time, so it wasn't a surprise when he voted him.

I got to a better explanation, so never mind.

[Amazonian Legends]

I think if anything

fua

's claim today is slightly +scum rather than +town as fua hinted it's a late-day action so it seems like it could be designed to encourage us to keep fua around, while also making docs likely to target fua which is fua is scum gives scum freer rein to kill whoever they like. Definitely feeling a bit wary about that.

How likely do you think this kind of play actually is?

The cop claim didn’t surprise me actually, they made a post some time back that I read as a probable cop tell.

[Amazonian Legends]

Town: {fua, Shirou, Amazonian Legends, Tejate Raichu, Ydrasse}
Town Enough For Now: {Cephrir, implosion, morph}
Needs More Data: {NSG}
Would Lim: {numbersQ}
Would Lim With No Mercy: {redtea, imaginality}

does it bother you at all that this is also approximately what you'd get if you sorted the PL by charisma (tejate being the main exception)? This is something I've been thinking about a lot more lately.

Is it wrong that my secondary takeaway here is bemused pleasure at something thinking I'm actually charismatic?

I'm caught up again and can phonepost level post today. Last night's promised ISO dives didn't happen sorrynotsorry so rescheduled for Wednesday. Tonight is 'play in the mud' time.

Also, not super-relevant here, but I did see the normal game link where implosion and I played together. Hi! And sorry I absolutely sucked as scum that game; you got the win in spite of being stuck with me on your team.

I did just do an ISO read of imaginality because it's short. Ended with an impression that a) a whole lot of the content there is running numbers/strategies or navel-gazing and b) in the reads list, there was no attempt to set the stage for follow-up. Even if not asking specific questions or pulling the quotes, it felt like a lead brick being dropped.

I was interested in the way implosion defended Ydrasse and NSG in post 632. This is more of an 'if NSG or Ydrasse flip scum, I'd look harder at implosion' thing. I don't see implosion as being as questionable as the players I mentioned above.

implosion has a decent amount of content, a lot of it interacting with morph, who you have townvibes on. Independent of future flips, what's your takeaway from their interactions?

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Now see, I can't tell why I feel this way about his reads list versus most others. Maybe because given the rest of the ISO I was looking for something that resembled a willingness to engage? I also find the distaste for asynchronous dialogue odd from someone with a 2008 join date. MS isn't letting me look at people's topics going back further than the first page for some reason, but the first page does show a game from 2012 and two more pages past that, which means even if more recent games are the 2021 'post wherever/whenever/forever' style, asynchronous convos aren't that offensive, especially when it seems like that might be what's manageable for his posting frequency/schedule as demonstrated so far.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

well yeah but are there any scummier active players rn tho
a question i dont yet have an answer to

What questions do you have answers to?

Here's one (multi-parter even!): Who do you think the scummiest active player is, and who do you think the scummiest inactive player is? Your definitions of active vs. inactive will suffice.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I'm about 20 pages behind. Gonna try to get caught up tonight but I'm tres tired, so we'll see how far we get. I will have more time the next couple days than I've had the past couple days.

Skimmed real quick when I woke up this morning, and the only thing that bugs me about shirou was a feeling of a sense of urgency after nsg signaled the paranoia siren. We'll see if I still feel that's cause for concern when I actually read and not 6am skimming.

Penguin had a couple thoughts, but I think she'll be around tonight, so I'll let her share her thoughts when she gets here.

[Amazonian Legends]

Also my cat puked all over my bed. How's everyone else's night going?

[Amazonian Legends]

If it's any consolation, my other head said she liked your posts earlier today.

[Amazonian Legends]

Also.

I think if anything fua's claim today is slightly +scum rather than +town as fua hinted it's a late-day action so it seems like it could be designed to encourage us to keep fua around, while also making docs likely to target fua which is fua is scum gives scum freer rein to kill whoever they like. Definitely feeling a bit wary about that.

Can we please not? This is like, the equivalent of rolefishing. And I think everyone or at least a lot of the people calling fua town are not calling fua town for the roleclaim (I'm not specifically, though I do think the roleclaim is +town).

How do you see that as equivalent to role fishing?

[Amazonian Legends]

[Amazonian Legends]

I guess it's fine to look for the easy scum first. and i don't hate the argument against imaginality.

I have liked this stream of posts from GL, although it's not powerful enough for my concern level about him to vanish entirely... it sometimes treads into eyeglaze territory which fits sort of a, scum profile? that exists in my head

Can you talk more about that scum profile. What did you think about his push to get a redtea wagon started?

[Amazonian Legends]

My cat is now laying on the bed snoring and feeling no shame about puking all over it earlier. NO APOLOGIES!

[Amazonian Legends]

Now that's super cute!

[Amazonian Legends]

I think there are probably a couple players at this table who could figure my alignment simply from the my vibe about carrying the hydra.

I was actually thinking about this earlier, and your play as ffery vs. morph. I don't think I've ever seen morph!scum, but I know enough to know that your hydra has a meta that is independent (sorta) from your mains. And there have been a few things you've said that as ffery I think I'd have a stronger town read on you than I do, but as morph I wonder if they count as much.

I don't know if that makes much sense, but I was weighing the carrying of the hydra bit and how much it should factor into my read.

[Amazonian Legends]

Be careful lest those edibles make you give away the farm!

[Amazonian Legends]

Well, not necessarily I guess, asynchronous dialogue is possible but I get more from back and forth when I'm online at the same time as the other player(s), especially in fastpaced games.

We were online at the same time a little bit ago, and you're unsure of us, why no back and forth?

[Amazonian Legends]

I think if anything

fua

's claim today is slightly +scum rather than +town as fua hinted it's a late-day action so it seems like it could be designed to encourage us to keep fua around, while also making docs likely to target fua which is fua is scum gives scum freer rein to kill whoever they like. Definitely feeling a bit wary about that.

How likely do you think this kind of play actually is?

The cop claim didn’t surprise me actually, they made a post some time back that I read as a probable cop tell.

I can see a single scum player in a team of three making that play. Like as a preplanned tactic. Fake a coptell, claim cop, it would be bad if it's a regular cop but one-shot it seems pretty doable.

It's not enough in and of itself to paint fua as scum, but I definitely don't think it should be getting read as a townpoint.
I do admit that fua's other posting hasn't worried so much.

So the possible cop tell I noted is nowhere a definite tell and one that came from a tenor of a post that I thought sounded like it possibly came from a cop. Even if fua is gambiting as town or scum, I don't think the post I thought it came from was a planned fake cop tell. I think it would be odd for scum at that point to claim for the reason you're suggesting; I was starting to townread fua before that point, and the cop claim just made sense with what I thought of one of their posts.

I don't know if that makes sense. I did not eat edibles but it's past my bedtime and my brain is starting to go gooey.

[Amazonian Legends]

The focus on reacting to single players or statements at any given time does give me a bit of pause

Not sure what this means?

[Amazonian Legends]

Whoever corrected me on the maths, I think this is a simpler way of figuring it that avoids the Bayesian logic:

There are 3 to 5 other townies who could be the same night and same role as me. Average 4.

There are 3 scum who could claim to be same role and night as me. Average 1.5 since they might instead claim different role to me.

Assuming scum claim their night at random then it's 1.5/(1.5+4.5) = 27.3% chance it's scum claiming it. So it is more likely than the 25% baseline chance, but only slightly, not significantly like I first thought.

The assumption that scum will claim their night at random (rather than e.g. being biased towards claiming later nights) is possibly questionable but that gets wifomy.

Are you ScrewTheTells by any chance?

[Amazonian Legends]

The focus on reacting to single players or statements at any given time does give me a bit of pause

Not sure what this means?

I meant that a lot of your posts seem to be reactive to specific other players, with much fewer on the state of the game as a whole. That might be more of a playstyle thing than an AI thing, I'm not too sure.

Also don't ruin your sleep schedule, I'll be around tomorrow.

It's just me. I imagine once I catch up, I'll give more thoughts.

[Amazonian Legends]

Instead of asking why he just says ‘I feel the same way’ which is just weird and an attempt to brush off suspicion through OMGUS and undermining Morph’s own statement, which I think is scummy.

Hero solve is Ceph/Implosion/Tejate. Clearly this is correct.

I think I'd see where you're coming from if this was the beginning of their suspicion, but Implosion and Morph have been suspecting each other for pages before this.

[Amazonian Legends]

As in which post of fua's gave you the cop vibe?

Wanna know the best part of locktowning Tammyguin, Ceph?

My you-read is outsourced to somebody better at it!

Just so you know I had major wiggins when I saw this post whenever I skimmed. Until I talked to penguin and she said she had him pegged in bloodstained, and that made sense.

[Amazonian Legends]

As in which post of fua's gave you the cop vibe?

oops meant to respond to this one then too. So, that's not important and I'm not going to share the little things I pick up on and look for when they're not relevant and might not even be right lol. I'm not trying to convince you that fua is a cop moreso I'm trying to understand why you were kinda sounding alarm bells when it seems unlikely for fua to be claiming cop as scum there and trying to determine how much you actually believed it.

[Amazonian Legends]

Tammy when y'all gonna get around to finalizing a read on us? Kthnx

When it comes?

I don't know. Mafia is hard.

[Amazonian Legends]

Tammy when y'all gonna get around to finalizing a read on us? Kthnx

When it comes?

I don't know. Mafia is hard.

But will it be coming round the mountain when it does?

heh

we have a read on you guys; it's just not locked.

[Amazonian Legends]

Tammy when y'all gonna get around to finalizing a read on us? Kthnx

When it comes?

I don't know. Mafia is hard.

But will it be coming round the mountain when it does?

heh

we have a read on you guys; it's just not locked.

Then I declare complete and utter victory in this new arms race.

I don't mind being a turtle!

[Amazonian Legends]

As in which post of fua's gave you the cop vibe?

oops meant to respond to this one then too. So, that's not important and I'm not going to share the little things I pick up on and look for when they're not relevant and might not even be right lol. I'm not trying to convince you that fua is a cop moreso I'm trying to understand why you were kinda sounding alarm bells when it seems unlikely for fua to be claiming cop as scum there and trying to determine how much you actually believed it.

In my head it was similar to what whoever it was did about Shirou. In that case it was "hey everyone who thinks Shirou is really towny remember they're really good as scum" which recalibrated some reads.

In my case it was "hey everyone who thinks this cop claim is unlikely to come from scum here are some reasons it could make sense as a scum play".

So not a "fua is scum" but a "I don't think this should be +townpoints for fua"

gotcha gotcha!

I understand now.

[Amazonian Legends]

I'm mobile but pretend I put an adorable baby turtle picture here with a thumbs up.

Also probably passing out very shortly. I'll finish up reading the rest tomorrow and give my thoughts then.

[Amazonian Legends]

oh oops that's big

[Amazonian Legends]

The other way to read penguin being her word CHOICE not so much the actual contents of the post. She tends to be slightly more explainy and uses bigger words.

Bigger words like explainy?

I'm ignoring your tell on me BTW. I have no idea how to police my word choice that closely, but I guess I'll worry about it if I draw scum in a future game with you.

Damn your favorite post was spay not me.


Rude.

So much flirting, so much ego.

Then I declare complete and utter victory in this new arms race.

I'm not in a rush. I like Day Two better than Day One anyways. In all seriousness, I'm reading in dribs and drabs as I work during the day and in spare night moments. I'm finding myself getting impressions that I can't back up with shiny cases. Like you (morph). Last time I saw scum-Cabd (I think early dance game?) something pinged as off, but I couldn't put my finger on it, even after I saw the slot flip. I'm not getting that vibe here, but I'm too rusty and not good with snap judgments to locktown you.

Cephrir goes here too. Town read, instinct over case.

I did really like NSG's re-entry. Coming in and upending a popularly accepted town read would be extraordinarily gutsy for scum and showed a lot of independent though for town (in the non-condescending way). Reversal on the read for me.

I know Shirou wanted folks to comment, but that really moved the needle more drastically for NSG than for Shirou.

I've also liked imaginality's posts and fallen off on implosion from where I felt I was a couple days ago. Tammy wants to talk about implosion when we're both awake tomorrow, and I'm fading fast.

I looked at redtea's new content and I don't see anything to townread. Nothing from town motivation. Even the stuff under the spoiler tag is all commentary on exchanges without committing to stances of the situations. Probably looking to vote there once I talk to Tammy and consider how the imaginality wagon formed.

I'm hitting work hard in the morning, so more likely I'm around in the afternoon


--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Fuck it, Tammy can move it if she hates it.

VOTE: redtea

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Oh I was in the dedede game, so I have seen implosion scum. But the only thing I remember is That I was an entire one-woman shitshow and one of my last games before taking a break.

[Amazonian Legends]

It was a great hydra name though!

[Amazonian Legends]

ok thx

Do you still have concerns about morph and if so is it still underwhelming?

[Amazonian Legends]

I meant to get caught up this morning but I accidentally just spent three hours on TikTok. Priorities. But I will get caught up when I get home. Promises

[Amazonian Legends]

ok thx

Do you still have concerns about morph and if so is it still underwhelming?

yeah they still havent impressed me

i asked this question because i was wondering if they were trying to generate content survivalistically in response to reads on them falling

Sorry that I asked the question and then left, I realized I was running late for therapy.

So I asked that question for two reasons. The first being that morph talking about doing a reread reminded me of the vanilla cop debacle game and just about the time ffery started doing a reread and posting stuff, Cabd called her out about engaging in her scumtell. I don't think that he said what the scumtell was but I thought it had something to do with rereading like that, and I also wondered if it was in response to current thread temperature. (I also know that she does reread the game and other games as well, but that little memory had me wondering.)

The second reason I asked is because I've been trying to make sense of my own read on them, and if I should be more concerned than I am. Last night I told penguin that I wondered if I should be more concerned about the lack of town reads they have in this game because it's not really often that this happens. Penguin doesn't have them as lock town yet, but hasn't seen cause for worry, so what follows is all me morph and if you are town I'm sorry if this is going to be annoying.

The gist of my read is this. I do not have any reason to scum read morph, and I have liked several posts of ffery's for being the types of posts that I typically town read ffery for. But at this point in the game I thought I would be more sure than I am. Now part of this might be the nature of this game and the fact that I'm kinda perpetually behind (which I will fix today). And penguin says that every time she's spectated a game with cabd in it and he's been scum, she's known something has been off and it doesn't feel that way here, but he also hasn't posted a whole lot and I guess I'd feel more confident in that feeling if there were. Maybe I'm expecting too much.

For my part I kinda feel like the town read on us was too easy, which is super weird coming from me I know. But the reason I made the joke I did at the beginning of the game was because while ffery tends to town read me correctly, I'm not typically town locked. There's always some hesitation. Even in Warehouse 13, there was some hesitation and I didn't make it into town town. And I thought the post that they town locked me for (257) is a post that I could easily make as scum. Now this might be an unfair concern of mine; they both know that I'm terrified of the first time I'll roll scum again and think I'll be too nervous to post, and cabd might have a tell on me that he uses to read me by that is still valid. I don't know; I expected to be townread, but I didn't expect to be town locked so early, at least not until cabd had a chance to read penguin.

The response to you after this post reminded me of the way that Bork responded to my suspicions in Warehouse 13 when he was trying to knock me off my footing.

Well this post was a lot better in my head when I was driving than it ended up being now. But that jumbled mess is where I am on morph. I don't have a reason that I think they're scum; I've liked some posts but I'm not as confident in a town read as I'd like to be and the floating suspicion has me concerned as well.

(I'm sorry if you guys are town though! I know it's annoying when you're expecting someone to town read you easily and work together, and they're sitting over there squinty eyed especially when suspicion is coming from other corners.)

[Amazonian Legends]

We've had townreads all along, though? And have posted some of them, as well as comments about when reads are moving up or down.

I realize we're probably not throwing read updates out as frequently, but that's a factor of real life for both of us. When we're both feeling solid about the game again, we'll post a list we're ready to roll with.

In the meantime it would have been nice if we'd intersected in the thread often enough to hold an actual conversation and dig into reads, but that wasn't in the cards.

Originally I was holding some reads back to see how players reacted. And a post like that when I was holding some reads a little closely, would have felt right at home.

I don't know what you need to do, or what we need to do for you to have the data you need to get more certain about us, but I'm here and if you have questions I'm happy to answer. So far your posts about/to us have mostly been observations, and there's only so much I can do with that.

Is this a response to me? I wasn't talking about reads on other people or saying that you hadn't done that.

And I realize my concerns are very potentially a me problem and in part stemming from the fact that this game started when it did, and I've been constantly behind and catching up when I can. I'll be getting caught up tonight though and should be on top of things for the remainder of the day though!

[Amazonian Legends]

Was there a reason why you'd think he might disagree?

Yes; I think he'd expect Tammy reading ffery to be more accurate than me reading him. I don't want to bog the game down with personal navel-gazing, but IRL he's a lot better at ferreting out what's going on in my head than vice versa. Maybe this is a low self-esteem take. I'm at a town read on you rather than a day three pass, but it's taken time.

I still really like our vote on redtea after a day to think and in light of the intervening posts. I'm also somehow not a fan of the imaginality wagon composition. It feels like its sincerity drops with every vote that joins.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I'm here.

I'm absorbing atm.

My read of implosion is really frustrating. I feel strongly something's off with him, but it's so hard pinpoint/find words.

I don't think so. Pretty sure I was bugged before you expressed that. I think it probably has more to do with having suspected and even voted you at times in the dedede game I just didn't have certainty and conviction, and I don't want to make that mistake again here.

In dedede you had very specific things you nailed me on, or at least one, if I remember. Like I mentioned there was a single post you shredded me over that I immediately regretted making.

Right, and I didn't hang on to that read. And I wouldn't expect you to make that kind of misstep again, probably ever, but definitely not playing with us.

And, in that game I think we were well beyond 40 pages when that exchange occurred.

Your playstyle feels very similar here in some ways.

You're not going to convince me that this entirely an exercise of jumping at shadows. If I come to that conclusion it will on my own.

Have you been able to townread implosion in games where he’s been town?

[Amazonian Legends]

I ask because I was trying to make sense of my own read there. Penguin suspects implosion and I’ve just basically said I dunno. But really he doesn’t seem any different from other games, but I’ve never been great at reading him I don’t think. Iirc most of the time I have him as possible town unless other things in the game have made that clearer.

[Amazonian Legends]

I certainly agree with that, amicability most certainly is a factor when it comes down to who you want to put on a wagon. But I don't think most people would outright say "Wow, that Tejate guy's a riot, let's not kill him". It doesn't feel like an actual good reason.

Funny people are town. It is known.

[Amazonian Legends]

Are you two a total sync on redtea?

I don’t have a townread on red tea. That’s as far as I’m at right now. I’m tryimg to get completely caught up tonight though and then I’ll go back and look ashis posts specifically.

[Amazonian Legends]

They. Err

[Amazonian Legends]

Err should be sorry dumb phone

[Amazonian Legends]

I ask because I was trying to make sense of my own read there. Penguin suspects implosion and I’ve just basically said I dunno. But really he doesn’t seem any different from other games, but I’ve never been great at reading him I don’t think. Iirc most of the time I have him as possible town unless other things in the game have made that clearer.

You were in the swag mini too. I don't remember your reads of Implosion. He was a 2-shot vig iirc.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62686

Welp. If I ended up having a hard time reading implosion later, I certainly didn’t then since I said that I’ve easily townread him in the gameswe played together and in one he was my first true town read lol.

I still do enjoy playing with implosion and was happy he was playing here. I wish my confidence in my ability to read him remained.

[Amazonian Legends]

I'm curious if Tammy has played with implosion more recently than I have. Also GuiltyLion.

No, I took my mafia break back in 2017 and haven't played with implosion until this game. I do not think I've played with guilty lion either.

[Amazonian Legends]

I really need to stop making such general statements. Can you elaborate on what you meant by "the wagon felt like it gained less credibility with each vote on it"? Was it the speed, players you SR'd, certain opinions on imaginality?

Penguin made that post; I'm not sure she's around tonight, but I'm sure she'll answer it when she is.

[Amazonian Legends]

I really need to stop making such general statements. Can you elaborate on what you meant by "the wagon felt like it gained less credibility with each vote on it"? Was it the speed, players you SR'd, certain opinions on imaginality?

Here's what I was looking at when I wrote that:

imaginality (5): fua, Cephrir, Ydrasse, implosion, Shirou

Player composition first; early wagon inspired more confidence than later wagon. Then speed. I remember a bunch of people just shrugging and going sure, why not. I need to go back and read the individual justifications for a full judgment. It was quite a contrast to how the redtea wagon is (not) forming. Not that I'm bitter or anything. I do take honey in my tea like a barbarian so I'm covered there.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I am caught up. It's also past my bedtime and I'm crashing. I will be around more over the next few days and will compile my thoughts tomorrow. Also playing mafia sober is weird. I think for years drinking something while playing helped me focus and clear all the clutter and distractions in my brain, and caused huge messes too, but sober my brain is like shiny wait what page was I on? lol.

Anyway, I'll talk about my reads tomorrow. Ffery, that point you made about GL going after fua there; that was one part of the game that I really liked GL. I was town leaning fua by that point, but that interaction ended up making me townread fua stronger and made me town lean GL. Maybe I wouldn't like it so much in retrospect, but I suspected GL's earlier posts and then liked that interaction.

I'll probably not crash right away, so I might post. Just no deep thoughts, if they exist, until tomorrow.

[Amazonian Legends]

Vote: leap of faith

Joke obviously but I was just going to list who I’d rather not eliminate vs who I’d be okay with and I realized the people I’d be okay with are red tea, imaginality or numberq, and while I stopped panicking about getting the day one elimination perfect and hitting scum a long time ago and opting for an if I don’t have a scum read I feel confident in pushing being okay with an elimination on someone I don’t have a town read on route, I’m not entirely pleased with my would be okay with list.

Numberq’s vla so I didn’t get a chance to see if my concerns on him were valid or just not liking his takes. I didn’t like the “what is shirou getting out of this” posts or parts of his cephrir stuff like the hostile and dismissive stuff. It felt like a weird add in, especially when I don’t think cephrir has been hostile at all, and numberq modded trust fall and there was certainly town hostility there, so I know he knows town can be hostile. I saw that implosion had a town read there partly based on meta. I don’t want to do research but maybe I will. Regardless of how I feel, I wouldn’t be okay with this Lim now due to him being v/la. (I hope everything is okay with your family btw)

Red tea - this one is an absolute toss up. I don’t have a town read here, but neither do I have a scum read. I might have some thoughts about guilty lions push here when I get back from the rink and reread a few things, but I would not be surprised if redtea flipped town or scum. Penguin has reasons to scum read them, and I’m not opposed. Though I did not like the spoilered portion of the “wall”.

Imaginality - I don’t care about the waffliness in his reads because I’m a total waffle queen. And the big post that was more summary than analysis bugged me too but I’m also reminded that back in the way back when I was a far more rigorous mafia player than I am now, I used todo that too. So that bugged me and I know that scum tend to do that but I did it as town too, so hrm. And I have liked some of his posts, like the sorry to disappoint you’ll have to wait longer for scum post. Yes, I know scum can say that too but it’s my weakness, but those are the types of posts I’ve liked and not the content stuff. I didn’t like the “look at the speed of my wagon vs redteas” that just really bugged me. So I’m mostly okay with this because of the game suspicion and I don’t have a town read there.

BUT I do not think that is the scum team. I don’t have an actual town read on everyone else, and I have reservations on most people I’m town leaning. And I will talk about that when I get back from the rink.

[Amazonian Legends]

So, I'm going to do Hito's top-dome exercise to try to organize my thoughts and reads on people as they stand right now. I kinda just want to get down my impressions and thoughts before I start doing a few iso's to try to clarify some reads. I don't promise to remember everything correctly here; if I mess up on something, I'll adjust it when I go through some isos. Not going to do redtea, imaginability or numbers because I did this earlier when I talked about them being in my willing to lim list.

I didn't like fua's first post or a lot of their follow up posts nor did I like part of their interaction with Cephrir when he was grilling them because it felt like deflecting off from the one post that Cephrir didn't like, and at that point I felt pretty good that fua was scum. But later interactions brought some snark, fire and what morph's called swagger and I started liking them quite a bit more. I came around to a town read on them after and it's not one that I've held reservations on.

Ydrasse was an early town read based on really liking her thread presence. I liked the early interaction with gl about appealing to morph. There were two things that she either did or mentioned right about the time I was also considering those things that I also liked. I can't remember what the other thing was, but I do remember one of them was the vote on numberq and part of the reasoning. I also liked the post where she asked for meta opinions on number's posts. I also liked her self meta about what she's wiling to do and exploit as scum. That's not alignment relevant, but I just liked the cockiness of it. Ydrasse is someone who when they're around I really like their thread presence and when they're not around, I start to lose the read. This is exactly the type of player that as scum can easily sneak by me for a few days before I start paying more attention.

cephrir - I've not had a problem with cephrir this game really at all. I've liked his snark at times, and I've liked what he's put out there. Penguin has a decent town read there as well. I think a lot of the times that I've seen cephrir!scum, I haven't had a big problem with what he's been posting but there's been a little voice in my head telling me to be careful, but I usually ignore it and don't do anything about it. I didn't mind the sharpness of the notes thing alignment wise; it was a little jarring but I didn't think oh that's scummy. I don't think he's been hostile in the way that numbers claimed he was, and the dismissiveness was fine. I do see numbers point about how he didn't refute the read but just pointed out that the reasons weren't there or weren't very good. If anything gives me pause on Cephrir, it's probably that. I guess I'm just used to a different attitude from Cephrir when he's being accurately scum read - more emotional manipulation maybe.

I was bored before I even began

nsg - I'm still wary there. The early fua town read did feel odd, as does her continued ignoring questions about why she was town reading fua at that point. I only didn't put her in my willing to lim list today because I think I have a good potential to be wrong here. Her later posts were fine but other than warning us about Shiro I don't remember the things she commented on. This is probably one that I'll be looking at warily as long as I'm alive.

GL - Thought he was scummy early, but then I liked his interaction with fua. Started getting a townread on GL and a stronger townread on fua from their interaction. I wasn't quite sure what to think about the push on redtea, mostly because redtea was probably the lowest of low hanging fruits to push at that point and the easiest push to make especially considering redtea's posts. So, the "everyone tell me why you're not willing to vote redtea" type thing felt a bit odd especially when someone had mentioned that they expected a town GL to be assuming the role of town leader. However, I've liked a good bit of his other posts around that time as well like the post where he's talking about the town reads he has and how scum would have a hard time getting into that bloc. I remember liking his reasonings for some of his reads.

Implosion feels like implosion. There is a part of me that thinks that a scum!implosion would just go ahead and town read me early because that's what he typically does. That's not a real strong belief at all, more just a passing thought. I've liked several of his posts here and there and the timing of some of his responses. He's sounded fine in his interaction with morph. I'm not sure I would know what to look for with him as scum. Iirc he tended to get a fair amount of suspicion in games, not sure if that's correct or changed. I've liked the way that he keeps talking about him and shirou having similar takes and his recent post about wanting shirou to be town because they've been syncing. Nothing has pinged from implosion really, but I guess I don't have confidence that he would. If that makes sense.

I've liked shirou's posts for the most part. Some of his posts are weird and my eyes glaze over a lot so I don't always retain what he's saying. I like the self-referential stuff, but that's a particular weakness of mine. I had a town read on him pretty early on but I don't feel as confident on that as I did. I think in part it's because of the keep-away stuff he's doing here and there; he knows so much about these things. Things like his redtea town read, getting after people asking imaginality questions and something with raichu. There's a certain point where some of it feels for show and that gives me a bit of pause.

I thought early on that raichu felt awkward due to being new but earnest. I still mostly feel that way. I'm having trouble remembering anything he's posted off the top of my head though. But I did kind of like shirou's argument that as scum, he'd be less inclined to rail agains the idea that he and cephrir were a pair though sometimes people can't help themselves. I do not read new players well especially on day one unless they really drop new innocent tells. and him having mafia experience of some type kinda

I still have reservations on morph and I'm still sorry that I do. I'm not panicking and saying hang the blessed feline or anything. It's not even a scum read, it's just I still don't feel confident in the read as I would like. I do like a lot of what ffery has posted. She's shown some fire and punch when it seems like she would and I want so very much for this to be a town read that I feel super confident on. The pushback on cephrir yesterday when she posited that he was casting asparagus because when she starts posting her thoughts people start feeling better about her still sits wrong. But it could very well be a bit of annoyance that people who should be reading her better are hesitating. I know how annoying that is. I haven't had a problem with their reads or posting save what I mentioned last night with regards to me. Penguin has them at an actual town read and hasn't felt concerned by anything that cabd has posted. This doesn't mean that I don't want to interact or work with morph on reads when I'm very well aware that this is likely a me problem.

Okay so this isn't a reads list per se. It's not in any particular order other than who I felt like talking about when I did. I know there's a lack on conclusions on a lot. It's just an exercise in getting me to sort where I'm at even if I'm iffy on a lot. I don't think I'm a great day one reader. Gonna go through some iso's and try to nail down some of my fluffier thoughts.

[Amazonian Legends]

... and him having mafia experience of some type kinda

Did you forget to finish this part of the post or thought of something to write and then forgot to scrap it? It seems like this part of the post is kind of cut off.

haha yes oops. I took a break to sing to my cat lol. That was supposed to say him having mafia experience of some type kinda messes with the standard newness which makes it harder to read for me (or something like that.)

I've liked shirou's posts for the most part. Some of his posts are weird and my eyes glaze over a lot so I don't always retain what he's saying. I like the self-referential stuff, but that's a particular weakness of mine. I had a town read on him pretty early on but I don't feel as confident on that as I did. I think in part it's because of the keep-away stuff he's doing here and there; he knows so much about these things. Things like his redtea town read, getting after people asking imaginality questions and something with raichu. There's a certain point where some of it feels for show and that gives me a bit of pause.

Something I wanted to mention for a while but didn't want to say outright because it feels very WIFOM-y. Assuming I'm town and Shirou is scum, do you feel like he would be more likely to pocket me after the paranoia post by NSG, or push me? Because personally I'm not sure pushing me really aligns well with a scum!Shirou, granted I'm not fully sure of his meta beyond him presumably being a good scum player.

I'm not sure at all.

[Amazonian Legends]

my only real scumreads i think at this point are ydrasse and implo (maybe you could count shirou?)

ydrasse i don't like her posting around and before page 25. particularly, the vote and reasoning on numberQ don't really seem like believable reasons for a genuine scumread. perhaps it's just me failing to be able to put myself in someone else's mindset, but just on a probability level i think it's unlikely that the idea that "this person is building up to voting someone else and this is scum-indicative" comes from a townie genuinely reading through the thread, at least as explained by ydrasse. i also get pinged by the subsequent back and forth with morph. post like these:

Spoiler:

Ydrasse because she's kinda looking like she doesn't really want to be active in the thread, and because her numberq vote looked like one of those bold moves she sometimes makes as scum, like she was hurrying to be at the front of the town parade.

what exactly did you think was spicy about voting someone who a decent amount of people have floating around in their reads and what do you think about my point

weird to say "in front of the town parade" but not caring about my reasoning tbh

I thought it was spicy that you threw the vote down right after Tammy asked him a somewhat pointed question.

okay so what did you think about the comment i made about why i voted numberq

Because I don't think his stances are nearly as dissonant as you portrayed them.

point out which ones then

give me the impression that they're someone informed talking to someone whose alignment is known. particularly with the later context of ydrasse scumreading morph, a blank "point out which ones then" feels flat – i feel like i would expect more there. i think that if i were in that situation i would either pre-emptively elaborate more to justify myself or make some comment about how morph is being super concise in their disagreement and how it made me feel or whatever – maybe even just stop responding altogether.


that being said, despite my misgivings i do actually agree with what GL said here:

but I will say the difference I'm seeing is that Ydrasse seems genuinely a lot more invested in parsing out people's mindset behind their takes, I liked that she challenged me on the early conclusion I drew about your hydra having a townier opening than AL, I like that she's digging into numberQ's commentary on Shirou. It's not an ironclad reason to locktown Ydrasse, like she's certainly a capable scum player,

but overall the sense I get from her scum game - especially how she played Dance - is that she leans heavily on appearing tonally town, chill vibes, wanting to seem like she's not too survivalist or too tryhard, etc, whereas I get the sense the purpose of her posts so far here is less about being perceived any kind of way and more doing real digging into things she doesn't like or doesn't understand

. All this is D1 with no flips so heavy grain of salt, but that's the distinction I'm feeling

weirdly enough, GL came to the exact opposite conclusion than i did with regards to ydrasse regarding the exact same pages in 863.

I do like this post quite a lot.

What do you think about Ydrasse's subsequent explanation of the numbers vote after being questioned more about it?

[Amazonian Legends]

That was why I was trying to figure out how much I should be concerned about Ydrasse's claim.

Where were you concerned with Ydrasse's claim? I see where you were suspecting her and where you were concerned about fua's claim, but I don't see where you were specifically concerned with Ydrasse's claim.

[Amazonian Legends]

fua, why morph town? i was just thinking it's a little alarming i don't have any reason to townread them yet

Why did you think it was alarming at this point when you have a harder time getting a townread on ffery this early anyway?

[Amazonian Legends]

I just want to point, Ceph, that this was me saying I wanted your thoughts about our reads list.

In reply to your post I made that explicit. :/

After our discussion last night about your feeling shut out in a lot of games, running into this convo in my reread hit me right in the face. Maybe sometimes your expectation of being shut out is self-fulfilling.

Yes, you framed it as though I had done something wrong when I didnt even know you had posted a read list yet. This felt confusing and hostile to me. This post is also strangely hostile.

Reading iso's hoping to clear things up is muddying the waters for me because now there's a little devil on my shoulder whispering that it's not impossible that you two are partners.

[Amazonian Legends]

Don't yell at me though!

[Amazonian Legends]

Well, goodnight.

also Tammy last posts kinda feels like town

I guess

.

[Amazonian Legends]

I still love you guys though!

[Amazonian Legends]

Don't yell at me though!

nah. you just make me sad.

my ceph read is in peng's hands.

and that is peace.

I do like this response though <3 and not because it made me feel guilty but because I liked it.

[Amazonian Legends]

I've given a high-level overview of the numberQ read: his play, particularly his thread interaction motifs, feel identical to guardians. I generally don't feel much agenda from him. I liked his entrance to the game and 140 feels like a real effort to give opinions on the things he thinks he has opinions on rather than for show, or like scum would feel like giving only one actual read in an opening post like that is a bad idea. The fact that he's gotten caught up in the pace of the game but still made posts like 271 while catching up is a good sign imo, in that scum would feel more obligation to look like they're staying on top of things rather than being quippy. I actually liked the series of posts from 270-279 and specifically (don't hate me) remember liking that he asked for a vote count; it made it feel like his interest in being on top of what's happening in the game was genuine.

That's basically where my early read was coming from. Since then I think his arc on Cephrir looks fairly consistent with him as town; his wall looks like town who is becoming increasingly sure on a read more than scum who is trying to bs a case to me. His thread interactions feel generally very at ease to me e.g. 630 662. I don't think he looks like he cares especially much about perceptions. He's continued to sort of focus toward specific players/specific things despite being criticized for it and I think his play is consistent with town who is slightly bogged down by the pace of the game but doing his best to still figure out the things that he feels he has a foothold in.

There is also a component of sort of anti-Shirouism here; I don't actually know nQ's scumgame and don't think/know if it's particularly weak, but I do feel like his ISO contains a lot of things that are easy to scumread but aren't really actually alignment-indicative, and I think the same was probably true in guardians.

After glancing through the game Ydrasse linked, I don't think nq has a hard time being quippy and feeling the need to look on top of things. I tried looking at guardians for him and imaginality, but I'm not sure it helps considering the nature of that game.

[Amazonian Legends]

Okay I'm losing focus. Started a Ydrasse iso which turned into looking at numbers and imaginality in guardians which led to looking at numbers in squid game. (Skimming mind you) which led to looking at implosion's read on both and I forgot I was trying to clarify my read on Ydrasse and now I'm tired. I'll pick that back up tomorrow.

I'll let penguin smack me around if I start getting paranoid on Cephrir and morph again.

Night!

[Amazonian Legends]

. I do see numbers point about how he didn't refute the read but just pointed out that the reasons weren't there or weren't very good.

I still don't think I understand how these things are different. It probably isnt very important.

it's not I don't think.

sometimes scum get hung up on refuting the reasons as not being good enough rather than just being like you're read is wrong and dumb. And it's something I've seen, and done myself and got caught for, so that point he brought up I understood. I don't think it applies to you though.

[Amazonian Legends]

can i just decide to ignore the entire problem and vote nsg

later

Not gonna lie this thought crossed my mind as well.

This weekend got away from me and I’m headed to bed soon, so I won’t be doing much tonight.

I don’t particularly like the way that imaginality is bargaining with nq. I don’t mind that he’s bargaining, but the way he’s bargaining with nq about the towncred he’ll get if he votes implosion over him feels wrong in its presentation. I read backwards so at first I thought he was talking to an no that he was town reading with the promise of towncred which felt wrong but then it made a little more sense to see him scumreading nq as well, but the focus still feels weird. Eh I just reread 1561 and he is somewhat doing what I was going to say I thought he should be doing, so I don’t know, I’ll come back to this tomorrow.

[Amazonian Legends]

Red tea - this one is an absolute toss up. I don’t have a town read here, but neither do I have a scum read. I might have some thoughts about guilty lions push here when I get back from the rink and reread a few things, but I would not be surprised if redtea flipped town or scum. Penguin has reasons to scum read them, and I’m not opposed. Though I did not like the spoilered portion of the “wall”.

I guess this is just a you read? Otherwise why is your vote here.

The last time I talked to Penguin about it, she had an actual scum read there. More recently, she has a reason to leave our vote where it is. Our vote isn't needed on imaginability right now, and there becomes a time where our vote matters, then I imagine we'll weigh things up a bit more.

[Amazonian Legends]

thank goodness for this. i guess i hydra gives you permission to post something like this and never act on it, but nonetheless. also, please don't be sorry for having reads, i say hypocritically

To be clear hydra or no, I wouldn't act on something like that day one anyway. I'd have to really have a scumread I felt great about on day one to act on that, not just some simmering doubt that has kept me from being confident they're town, which can happen for lots of reasons that doesn't include them being scum.

I apologize because I feel bad when I think I should be more sure, and I feel like my indecision is annoying. lol

[Amazonian Legends]

I'm at the point where I just want a flip, awful as that is. There's a ton of dense info (to me at least) in the thread, we've over sixty pages for a mini game, and I'm not at the point of wanting to go to bat for any of the leading wagon [candidates].

Tammy-talk time, I think?

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I still suspect the nsg slot. I did like that post I pointed out, but I still have concerns.

[Amazonian Legends]

My redtea read is meh. They aren't doing anything to improve my read, but what they did post felt scummy. I don't think there's anyone on this player list incapable of pulling out a decent scum game, and the anti-town -- scum line is thin.

GuiltyLion has moved up the most for me this day phase pre-flips.

I'm at redtea > imaginality >> implosion >> numberQ off gut vibes for preferred elims in what's been tossed around. NSG-slot is thin, but it seems that low activity is NAI there, so not the D1 yeet barring true idiocy from her replacement.

I feel badly that I don't have a stronger sentiment about today's elim, since it's clear a lot of people have invested a lot of brain power here. Just not much that speaks to me.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I don't like numberQ jumping onto Meg's observation. I don't think the hypocrisy is nearly as important/notable as either of them are framing it to be, especially given fua's Shirou vote was early game, and I also don't think hypocrisy is a scumtell at all. If fua was still championing to lim Shirou on the "self-aware" grounds

maybe

they'd have a point, but it's a bizarre thing to harp on 60+ pages later, particularly from numberQ.

welp you beat me to this post lol.


Megs - Your explanation doesn't really help the bit at all. I poked at fua's vote there and they explained why they disliked the self-awareness. And throwing in an AtE post in the middle of already being snarky (I actually didn't even read that bit as AtE even lol) isn't even hypocrisy. I have seen town go after someone for self-awareness and then turn around and be self-aware and call out their own self-awareness though.

Trying to dress up hypocrisy as psychological doesn't make your argument any less weak. People call out self-awareness while being self-aware all the time, same for a lot of the generic scum tells. I don't think you're reading context but looked for something that was aha! and yeah numbers jumping onto that too is really weird.

Did you ever discuss why we should eliminate Ydrasse today or comment on the current wagons in any meaningful way?

[Amazonian Legends]

morph, not sure if relevant, but if you're looking for Meg games, there's Role-A-Pair Red.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

morph, not sure if relevant, but if you're looking for Meg games, there's Role-A-Pair Red.

--PA

Do you think that game compares with this one?

I kinda don't.

but playing with a bunch of hidden alts (or not so hidden ~eyebrow raise~ at neuterhalf) is maaaybe not all that great for experiential meta. Or maybe I've already shoved that one down the memory hole.

I agree; I wouldn't make the assumption that one game is a sufficient data point, but from my hazy memory their entry there was pretty different from here. Sometimes players have different perspectives than mods versus even reading the game as a spectator or after the fact, so I figured I'd mention it. Especially since it was a data point for a replacement instead of being there from the start.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Aw yeah.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I'm less bored now. Let's try this. Next post, folks, give us your GTH (gun-to-head) fua reads.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I'm less bored now. Let's try this. Next post, folks, give us your GTH (gun-to-head) fua reads.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I'm less bored now. Let's try this. Next post, folks, give us your GTH (gun-to-head) fua reads.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Okay so penguin got enough people to answer her question.

We healed fua last night.

[Amazonian Legends]

Okay so penguin got enough people to answer her question.

We healed fua last night.

Yeah as was literally obvious by the sheer smugness in her first post.

It's why I called fua locktown.

Yeah I figured you guys would know that lol

[Amazonian Legends]

Yeah no kills exist but I’d be surprised plus Fua’s reaction to penguins question reads like she thought that was a cop clear. Can be faked to as well but I don’t think so.

[Amazonian Legends]

Yeah no kills exist but I’d be surprised plus Fua’s reaction to penguins question reads like

she

they thought that was a cop clear. Can be faked to as well but I don’t think so.

[Amazonian Legends]

Aw yeah.

--PA

Like come on subtlety is deadass not happening when you post like this!

It's Friday and we have a good chance of having intercepted the scum kill. And I wanted to see if anything interesting shook out. Unlikely, but since we're less useful than a cop and outright useless from here on out, we may as well try to steal home.

--PA

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

I’m also glad that the newbie is done for this convo! Yesterday I read a few of raichus posts in the newbie and the only minor takeaway I had was in the few posts I read, he felt less awkward than I’ve sometimes felt here.

But Reading while knowing his alignment and only a few posts might not mean anything

[Amazonian Legends]

Well, I guess that settles that matter. That means we have 2 out of 4-6 doc claims now, if I'm not mistaken. I'm still not entirely sure if Ydrasse was being serious with the """breadcrumb""", so it might be 3.

I say we don’t worry about this today. She’s a claimed night two do , so she’s another two doc. If we did in fact protect the night Kill then ydrasse protects fua tonight.

[Amazonian Legends]

Another should be a night. On phone and it hates me

[Amazonian Legends]

By my count that's everyone checked in and likely town-us, fua, numberQ, and Cephrir barring shenanigans.

Not around much today, but with all that in mind, I owe this game a reread-slog. Aiming for this weekend.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Yay that penguin was likely right on cephrir.

I see that there is a case being made on guilty lion but I don’t have time to read it. Gotta make dessert before heading over to my other heads for game night.

My main problem with megs yesterday was ignoring the two wagons, and ignoring the questions people asked him about his thoughts on the wagon.the claim that ydrasse was coasting is erm when she’s out sick.

Not that I feel at all confident she’s town, but I’m not entirely inclined to go there today due to her being a claimed night two doc, and that healer threat should keep fua alive tonight. (Even if ydrasse is scum).

I still need to catch up on end of day yesterday, and need to do a reread myself. That will take me a few days to get through pretty sure.

I think we’re just waiting for red tea to check in.

[Amazonian Legends]

This weekend got completely away from me. I’ve skimmed the posts from today, but I don’t really have much to comment on right this second. I’m gonna start my reread tonight until I fall asleep so I have a better context. I feel like I’ve had a bit of brain fog since coming back from vacation, so hopefully the reread will help with focus.

I’m a bit surprised that scum didn’t try to muddy the waters and claim a different protect or even the same. I really expected there to be a second doc claim so that we couldn’t mostly clear fua. (I think fuas clear, the mostly is just barring no kill shenanigans but I’m not sure anyone here plays that type of game.)

Anyway next couple days are somewhat busy for me. Gonna try to get rereading in but I probably won’t be posting that much. I’ll skim though so I’ll respond if you direct something to me.

[Amazonian Legends]

also I'll do a readslist as well

{AL, fua, Ceph}
{Shirou, numberQ, Ydrasse}
{morph, implo, Meg}
{redtea, Tejate}

I'd be hard sell to lim anyone above the bottom tier at the moment. Second tier is town unless there's multiple green flips in the bottom 5, top tier I'd bet the game on town

I agree on the bottom tier. I'd move morph up and Ydrasse down but otherwise yeah. You, I'd put in second tier pending more flip info.

I don't really care if we elim Tejate or redtea today. No way should a cop check ever be wasted on redtea, since I suspect if we're wrong and they're town we still wouldn't get anything useful from that info except avoiding the miselim in contrast to being able to interact with you (GL), morph, implosion, Shirou, etc. as conftown, even if just for a day. And it illuminates the previous 80+ pages.

I'm leaning toward a Tejate elimination because that gives any cop shots more information to work with to decide where to check overnight. And yet I don't want redtea at (M)ElLo either.

Still planning on that reread eventually.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

i see why tejate is the leading wagon.
ill read the implosion v gl spoiler later and see if there is potential for that to change.

+in favor of town!tejate: ive fallen into a trap of that kind of posting before as town
-in favor if town!tejate: it's been consistent all of d2 so far minus the spoiler i havent read. Compared to other players at this point, Tejate isnt bringing it despite his posts' word counts.

In what way is he not bringing it?

Is that why you can see why he’s a leading wagon.

[Amazonian Legends]

I’d prefer there not be a hammer.

My lofty goals of rereading did not pan out beyond page three. I’m giving up that pipe dream. I was at least going to get fully caught up on the day but I’ve had a bad mental health day and no sleep, so I’m going to try to sleep.

My time is more my own tomorrow, so I’ll be around then. I’ve lost my patience with ydrasse, redrew and somewhat mega though but that might in part be me and the fact that I haven’t slept for a week and I’m tired and grumpy. I am grumpy shooting daggers at that e-1 vote there.

[Amazonian Legends]

turbo eliminations are always bad especially when there's a decent chance at least one person will have a cop result tomorrow

thank you for coming to my TED talk

redtea flip gives good info
tejate flip gives good info

redtea is scummier than tejate

ergo kill redtea

?

[Amazonian Legends]

wanna kill me and lose the doctor on fua tonight be my guest ~

No, I don’t want to eliminate you today.

But you have the wolfiest pop ins I’ve seen in a long time and I’ve lost patience with your play.

[Amazonian Legends]

So there’s a game I was going to replace into that I ended up not replacing into, and I’m wondering

Ydrasse are you the same ydrasse as at mu? Because in that game you had the same type of haha free energy but you took some things seriously while in this game you’re just trolling and trying to get on peoples nerves.

E wise right now from where I sit you’re trolling looks like scum trolling laughing because we’re letting you skate by another day, and saving you might not even save fua because you’re recognizing you’re going down tomorrow anyway. I no longer care if you live through the day.

Game for reference: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/se ... =50&page=2

[Amazonian Legends]

but like if you wanna switch to kill me today and fua gets killed tonight that’s the trade YOU have to take and the heat you’ll have to bear and i will sit laughing at it all happening

Lol

[Amazonian Legends]

Uh I’m laughing at you threatening me with me taking heat if you get eliminated or if I’d give two shits about it.

[Amazonian Legends]

like at the end of the day i’m just not going to get into this game and that sucks! i know! but can’t really change that nor do i have the energy to do so

but trying to make some comments like “i no longer care” as like weird little statement pieces is a big ?

Look you’ve done nothing but troll for what two weeks now? I get being sick. I get being low energy. I get not being into a game.

But you’re actively making the game state poorer with the way you’re playing. And you’re doing it on purpose. That sucks. And quite frankly I don’t care what your role is, the way your playing is contributing to a game state that is harder to figure out and that makes me no longer care if you remain.

That’s it. And I don’t care what you have to say about it. I’m not going to continue with this. Youre choosing to play this way. It’s unfortunate your someone I was looking forward to playing with. I know better now.

[Amazonian Legends]

Uh?

Sorry!

I don’t enjoy being trolled and just wanted it to stop.

[Amazonian Legends]

I’m getting caught up on the day right now. I’ve skimmed to keep up with general events while at work, but haven’t actually read things in depth. I’m working on that now.

This is to raichu

(Also I’m stupid excited for the new Pokémon game coming out which is weird because I haven’t loved the previous ones I’ve played except go lol)

[Amazonian Legends]

oh why am I claiming

BECAUSE GL IS SCUM

and I don't have enough energy to convince you guys in this slow ass game that he's scum, so If I die not only I get the easy way to confirm my slot that's increasingly looking like a miselimination, but also still manage to shade GL.

If GL is town I don't see why scum would nightkill me here.

Tomorrow like this they would get a free no elimination day which would remove the advantage we have because we protected a townie correctly, and GL if town would still tunnel me anyway and miseliminate me even if I got an inno. "What if GL changed his mind". I think if GL changes his mind he's also scum so...?

Meg may be town

Tejate may or not be town

Right now gun to my head it's 3 out of GL/Morph/Ydra/Tejate

Scum don’t want a confirmed townie anymore than they want scum outed.

[Amazonian Legends]

I'm trying to figure out Shirou's recent posts.

Same. I’m going to go back to catching up on the day.

[Amazonian Legends]

If I'm scum doing this I would already be cornered. You all would lose little from no eliminating for one day.

If I'm town though, you're massively shooting yourselves on the foot by not no eliminating one day for me to get the result.

Mostly I’m confused about it. The fact that fua was the night kill last night, batting no kill shenanigans, means something I think, either about the scum team or the distribution of roles. And the fact that there are three doc claims out there, with two of them being night two claims means I’m worried about there not being a night three doctor to protect you anyway. And it doesn’t matter if gl is town. Scum don’t want cop checks period. They’re not going to just let you live because he’s town.

[Amazonian Legends]

Why am I playing on my phone while sitting next to my computer?

Batting should be baring

[Amazonian Legends]

turbo eliminations are always bad especially when there's a decent chance at least one person will have a cop result tomorrow

thank you for coming to my TED talk

redtea flip gives good info
tejate flip gives good info

redtea is scummier than tejate

ergo kill redtea

?

Lol ceph. We were bothered by the same thing.

[Amazonian Legends]

Oh

[Amazonian Legends]

So in tenet, I made a joke partway through day one that my half of the game were behaving all civilized like we were at high tea with tea and crumpets while the other half of the game was behaving like they were in a rumble, like end of movie outsiders style. I then wondered if the reason for that was that we had more scum on our side while the rumble side was mostly town eating each other.

I’ve had a flashback to that thought a few times while skimming this game day. I wonder if there’s something to that.

[Amazonian Legends]

Anyway I’m still 20 pages behind. Maybe I’ll get somewhere with that thought of mine.

[Amazonian Legends]

Can we just kill redtea instead of talking in circles?

We can but I’d like to catch up on the day.

[Amazonian Legends]

Implosion - this might have been answered, so if so just tell me you addressed it and I’ll get to it as I’m catching up on the day.

part of your argument is that gl is scum due to the awkward turn around on imaginality, but you also argue later that red tea was town. In the world where they’re both town, what would be his purpose? I might be misremembering but I don’t think anybody else was viable outside those two.

[Amazonian Legends]

Implosion - this might have been answered, so if so just tell me you addressed it and I’ll get to it as I’m catching up on the day.

part of your argument is that gl is scum due to the awkward turn around on imaginality, but you also argue later that red tea was town. In the world where they’re both town, what would be his purpose? I might be misremembering but I don’t think anybody else was viable outside those two.

Not sure what you mean - in the world where GL and redtea are both town? Or where redtea and imaginality are both town but GL is scum?

Assuming the latter, he could have various reasons for going onto imaginality, e.g. it lets him continue on redtea and save that mislim which he might have seen as more inevitable for later, or he thought he could get away with it/he thought he might make the switch as town and was trying to emulate, or he was trying to ingratiate himself with people on the imag wagon, or he was trying to continue the show of good faith to wagon when possible, etc etc.

Yeah in the world where red tea and imagine were both town. I guess I kinda thought that from the case you were making that it was opportunistic because he ultimately didn’t want to be on a scum redrew wagon, but you also think redtea is town.

I ask in part because I’m trying to gauge your case even though some things I don’t think are that scummy, and yes I know you’re writing it biased but things like thinking he was scum for bargaining with nq was a big thing I didn’t like from imagine. Anyway I’m also trying to decide how much I want to delve into the wagons yesterday. Yeah I don’t know this last bit is a kinda unformed thought I’m trying to figure out myself so I might come back to this later.

[Amazonian Legends]

UNVOTE: redtea

I suddenly wanted Morph dead. Idk why.

Thank you thank you thank you.

Implosion -I like portion two of your case than one. Not sure where I stand at the moment, but that one felt less narrativey and more interpretive though.

Anyway I gotta shower and head to therapy. Maybe I’ll be all zen when I come back lol.

Please don’t end the day.

[Amazonian Legends]

Man, getting this wagon through has been like pulling teeth.

[Amazonian Legends]

Oh I retract my emoji then!

[Amazonian Legends]

Though granted, putting imaginality at E-1 was probably a bit hasty, one of a few things I regret doing last night. Don't play mafia when your brain is melting, kids.

yeah this post still sucks

Your posts on this page have been golden.

[Amazonian Legends]

Can you talk more about it? What specific parts of their play is giving you that concern?

[Amazonian Legends]

There wasn’t really a delay from us though. It was clear we had something going on with fua, but penguin was hoping to get some useful reaction. I don’t think we got anything telling but it read to me like fua th ought we had a cop clear.

It’s not impossible though. It’s just that I’m not sure who would don’t that in this playerlist.

[Amazonian Legends]

No, I get what Mega is saying. I'm actually paranoid of the Amazons for the same reason.

You should be paranoid of me. I’m very scary scum player RAWR!

[Amazonian Legends]

I think copping Shirou would be a slightly odd thing for scum-tejate to come up with the idea to suggest.

eh really? I kinda think trying to make me people cop me for ~paranoia~ is kinda very pro-scum because it wouldn't really clear anyone from the miselimination pool so...it's kinda a solid thing for scum to recommend/suggest/think about?

Maybe you're talking about how Tejate wouldn't come up with this idea because of his personality or experience, but I would kinda disagree anyway, he was already on the trajectory of reconsidering me.

I don't think he's likely to come up with the idea as scum, yeah, feels like the kind of thing relatively new scum would have to think fairly out of the box to say.

Also notably if relevant for later, this is probably a really strong anti partner tell (if you're both scum it'd be quite wild for tejate to suggest this)

If raichu is scum he wouldn’t have to come up with it on his own.

[Amazonian Legends]

Also didn't wanna because it plays very much into my scum meta

I kinda liked that post!

[Amazonian Legends]

No, I get what Mega is saying. I'm actually paranoid of the Amazons for the same reason.

You should be paranoid of me. I’m very scary scum player RAWR!

Aww.

You probably are? I don't believe this is the game I play against scum you, though, for a mountain of reasons.

Lol I don’t think I’m close to a scary scum player. I’ll admit to having some good scum games, some in which I burned every meta tell I’m able to to win. I just find it amusing for anyone to be paranoid of me right now when all I can imagine is my first scum game in years being a flaming pile of embarrassing crap. I hope I prove myself wrong.

I was chuckling at the idea of me being ballsy enough to do a no kill gambit and let a claimed cop survive while claiming to heal them. Scum!me is pretty afraid of cops. My first game I played I was scum who was pretty oddly town read and the cop got outedbut I didn’t understand what it meant, let him live and was eliminated the next day. Damn you faraday (best reader of me ever btw). I think the only time I was ballsy like that was leaving a cop alive at f5 to purposefully check me and no kill to have reck pretend to heal him so that reck could win at f3. That cop was so smug; the guilt at seeing how played he was by reck was ouch. Ah nostalgia good times.

[Amazonian Legends]

Morph - do you have an updated read on raichu? I’m know you made a post with reads a few pages ago but wondering where your thoughts are there.

[Amazonian Legends]

Implosion - part of your argument against gl is that he lacks paranoia. Is paranoia something common for him as a player?

[Amazonian Legends]

I’m caught up to today for the most part. I don’t mind walls at all, but that’s damn near 20 pages of death by words. My sleep aid is kicking in, and I don’t want to miss my window of actually falling asleep. So I’m gonna stop here at the point where Shirou claimed. I need to digest what I read instead of jump to “you wrote a lot of words, you get a townread and you and you”, so anyway I’m going to get my thoughts down tomorrow after I’ve had a chance to think instead of stare at the wall and go hey the flowers I bought myself today are really pretty.

Good night thread.

[Amazonian Legends]

Morph - do you have an updated read on raichu? I’m know you made a post with reads a few pages ago but wondering where your thoughts are there.

Yeah, kinda. He's below all the players I have claim/results reasons to townread, but is maybe(?) my strongest townread outside that group based mostly on how he's played today since he stopped putting his effort into defense.

Oh but real quick. I’m not really all that great at reading newbies, but I wanted your take since you have experience and both of you shared some interaction that I wasn’t totally sure how your feelings ended up. Anyway I still have him reading pretty earnest but I don’t trust myself right now.

[Amazonian Legends]

No I’m pretty sure your right. I just consider those different enough than forum mafia. He obviously has knowledge about the game and has a meta he thinks of for himself, but he’s still new to this style.

Yeah I think I need to go to sleep. I thought about the above sentence for too long lol

[Amazonian Legends]

Sorry to be silent so long. It's been A Week.

I've read and dozed and read some more. A few thoughts:

@Meg, sure, I can see where our delay might look scummy, but what do we get out of it? In the end there were no doc claims, and frankly anyone who's played with me ever knows that I don't comment on nights that turn out favorably for town without a very, very good reason. I'm not sure I ever have in 50+ games. Commenting was pretty much a blazing signal to morph that we were taking responsibility for the lack of kill in a way that I couldn't have backed out of.

This game is beyond dense. Again, probably played 50+ games here conservatively, and I don't think I've ever seen such an unreadable game. The word count is probably higher than the 300+ page monstrosity large themes that exist. I have a hard time believing that it's all town doing this. Yes, activity correlates to town, but this is blathering to blather; unfortunately I'm not sure who to blame yet.

Contrary to the above, I do support a redtea elimination today. I don't see the slot becoming inherently more readable, and I think everyone has talked about it enough that it makes for a good data point. It doesn't do anything to cut down on all the verbosity, but it gives context to that verbosity without cutting off our ability to get information out of any town participants.

I don't support a no-elim tomorrow without much better arguments for it. As someone (Tejate?) said, town's power is in eliminating, puny docs and cops aside.

I have thoughts on likely set-up stuff, but I don't think it's anything revolutionary, so I'll hold off on that until at least tomorrow.

If there's anything specific people want me to address, have at it. I'll try to get to it within the next 36 hours if that's reasonable.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Oh, also, I really liked GL's snap-Enchant-town read.

Does anyone have a list of claimed PRs going? I have a theory that might be relevant the more I think on it.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Okay, so, theory that might be WIFOM. Scum know the breakdown of the cop:doc ratio as 6:4, 5:5, or 4:6. After Day One we had a flipped doctor and claimed Night Two doctor (this works best if we believe Ydrasse/Enchant, by the way; at this point I do and think they're town). Now, scum had kill options, and the fua kill did hit a claimed PR who was more dangerous than the other PR option along with a widely townread player. But it wasn't exactly the most incisive kill either. We were limping along in our following of the game, and we saw it as the best protect choice.

So why didn't scum go for a more townread player versus a PR? They knew N2 they'd have to be wary of the claimed doctor, and doc distribution on other nights is a crapshoot, theoretically. The smaller the player pool gets, too, the more likely any doctors protect the NK correctly.

Now, the pool is going to shrink regardless via elimination. But scum want to control the shrinkage with their own kills, which means if they seriously entertained the idea of a N1 doctor existing, they wouldn't have tried to kill the claimed cop.

The overall point of this, and maybe someone can refine my thinking here, is that I strongly suspect we're in a 6:4 cop:doc game. I'm NOT calling for a mass claim, to be clear. But I think it informs play around PRs going forward. Scum knew that with half the potential docs off the table, they'd have a very good shot (about two out of three, back of the envelope) that neither unclaimed doc would be N1. That makes the play worth it.

Having said that, I expect final claims to have five docs minimum, as obviously only four doc claims leaves them all as conf-town. This is less effective here, since if I'm right that means only one doc left hanging out unclaimed right now, and if that player is already highly townread, scum's mileage on counterclaiming versus letting it go drop a lot.

I could be completely offbase here. But the last part of that theory is that if scum know they have six town cops they're fighting, they're going to be positioning themselves around that now. Especially since I'd expect to see at least eight cop claims total. This means I'd expect scum to have planned their claims already and be ready to get them out there. I'm very much side-eyeing premature cop claims as such.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Also, wagon:

imaginality (7):

fua, Ydrasse,

implosion, Shirou, GuiltyLion,

Cephrir,

morph the cat

Is interesting. I think given how the day was going/not going, I'm not putting too much weight on it, but the green folks are very likely town. Tammy had some theories about the wagon; not sure if seeing it here will help her organize them.

--PA

[Amazonian Legends]

Ah, real quick something just occurred to me in regards to 2601. Again, this is still wild conspiracy theory stuff so take this with a grain of salt.

5) doc!Amazonian protects cop!fua... but scum didn't night kill anyone. Let's think about option 3 for a second, why does the scum (possibly) attempting such a play have to be fua? I even noted in this possibility that there is no real guarantee of success which made it seem unlikely, but what if it failed? What if the scum tried to draw in the doctor for this play but ended up needlessly confirming fua?

Okay enough of that. By the way, I really like 2604. Overall I've actually liked a number of nQ's posts better than day 1, regardless of the claim.

I’m the queen of paranoid theories, but your two theories where scum decided not to kill the cop just aren’t very likely, at least in the case of most scum teams. I can’t imagine a scum team deciding to just not kill a claimed cop in a game with at least four cops without having a counter to the cop. There are just too many variables you can’t control; the risk is way too high for no guarantee of a tiny reward. Unless you can neuter the cop, thou shall not suffer a cop to live.

Having a minimum of four cops is why I also don’t think there was a no kill. Is it possible, yes, but I don’t think it’s likely at this moment.

[Amazonian Legends]

I also think it's kinda dissonant Shirou 180'd over the last couple days from "I'm bored/apathetic with this game and don't have energy, let's just move on to D3" to "OMFG I'M COP AND GL IS SCUM AND I NEED TO DESTROY THE TOWNCRED OF HIS SLOT", the switch in mood/energy felt kinda outta nowhere for me

It did come out of nowhere. I already knew about the claim and y’alls interaction yesterday, so I was specifically looking for the spark. I didn’t really find where the strong reaction came from.

I’m trying to figure out where I stand there. There’s a lot about shirou that I like. I like the self-referential bits, I like the stream of consciousness in some of his posts, I like some of the self-doubt in parts, I like the bits where he’s like aha if I were scum this is what I’d do, I like the bits about watching to see what people would just rather do because that makes them more readable, and I liked yesterday when he got bummed because he wanted to lead the imaginality wagon.

But this is a dense game with a lot of words, and I was thinking about various ways that scum can help to create apathy. Making a game so toxic that people don’t want to post isn’t a tactic that can really fly anymore, but there’s also inundating the game with too many posts or too many long posts that people won’t want to read. Now that I’ve typed that out I don’t think it’s going on with shirou, but I can’t make sense of yesterday.

I wanted to give implosion a townread for the sheer amount of words going to the redtea defense. I still kinda want to but I think I lost the plot some time back lol.

[Amazonian Legends]

Also, wagon:

imaginality (7):

fua, Ydrasse,

implosion, Shirou, GuiltyLion,

Cephrir,

morph the cat

Is interesting. I think given how the day was going/not going, I'm not putting too much weight on it, but the green folks are very likely town. Tammy had some theories about the wagon; not sure if seeing it here will help her organize them.

--PA

I’m just posting this here real quick to post something else. I should be on my computer where this would be easier but I’m not :/

[Amazonian Legends]

Vote Count 1.07

imaginality (5):

fua, Cephrir, Ydrasse, implosion, Shirou

implosion (2):

Amazonian Legends, imaginality

Tejate Raichu (1):

northsidegal

Cephrir (1):

numberQ

redtea (1):

GuiltyLion

numberQ (1):

Tejate Raichu

Not Voting (2):

morph the cat, redtea

With 13 alive, it's 7 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is January 22 at 2:00 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-01-22 15:00:00)

Notes:

numberQ is V/LA until January 14

So this is the vote count after imaginality claimed. Shirou voted after he claimed disbelieving the claim and thinking his reaction seemed non town. Raichu votes soon after but unvotes because he put him to l1 and we asked for the unvote (I think someone asked)

Vote Count 1.12 (FINAL)

imaginality (7):

fua, Ydrasse, implosion, Shirou, GuiltyLion, Cephrir, morph the cat

redtea (2):

Amazonian Legends, imaginality

Cephrir (1):

numberQ

Ydrasse (1):

MegAzumarill

Not Voting (2):

redtea, Tejate Raichu

With 13 alive, it took 7 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 was January 22 at 2:00 PM EST.

Guilty lion then voted due to the numbers bargaining, which has been gone over quite completely, cephrir thought both redtea and imagine sounded like scum, and morph hammered to end the day.

We didn’t have a problem with the wagon going through. Penguin didn’t like some of the vote hops onto imaginality and wanted to see who else would push it.

But what I’m interested in is that nobody had any real hesitation there. I know we’re all rolled so claims don’t count as much as they normally would. But when we ended up with no kill last night, with us being the only claimed n1 doc with a protect on a claimed cop, penguin theorized that we may be in a 6 cop/4 doc situation and they gambled on there being no night 1 doc. With two night two doc claims out there, would they have been especially interested in eliminating one of the night two docs if they had the slightest chance?

I feel like my brain is going somewhere with this but I can’t quite get it out clearly. It’s just that redtea discussion did largely drop in favor of pushing imaginality, and if redtea is scum then that’s a more obvious answer, but Blah I don’t know. Maybe it means nothing.

[Amazonian Legends]

I wish I knew what implosions scum game looked like, but a few times today I’ve just thought I don’t think implosion scum does this. Like for instance, the way that implosion is handling guilty lion with the purposefully biased case. I didn’t like or buy into a lot of the case. Some parts, especially in part one, were a bit nit picky. I’ve changed my mind multiple times on a read in less than 7 minutes, so things like that didn’t resonate. GL not being paranoid is eh. I don’t know if he is usually, and not entirely sure whatthere is to be paranoid about right now. The points I did like was the push on the strength of the red tea read and the turn around on imaginality. Thought there was another one, but my brains failing me. Anyway those two points were the most salient to me. (Though for me I also disliked the bargaining and thought it made him likely scum, so I understand How someone could think that way). I think the town read on redtea is a bit overdone for someone weak reasons, even if he’s right, I just don’t buy into the optics argument that much when not coupled with other things. But why go to bat for redtea to that extent as scum. He’s not trying to stop the elimination so that he can probably fit in anyway unless the argument is that he’s trying to keep his hands clean. I also like the kind of appealing he’s been doing to shirou, thinking they’re gelling and wanting him to be town.

So yeah I just don’t know that that ^ is implosions scum game. I don’t see the agenda that others have claimed. Yesterday after mega voted ydrasse, I said to penguin that maybe she was scum after all and everyone else is seeing something that I’m not, but with enchants posts that might not be the case and my early town read on ydrasse was right. I feel the same with implosion. He doesn’t look like scum to me but with other people’s suspicion I’m like what am I missing?

[Amazonian Legends]

I have nothing in particular to add, but I had been hoping to get posting in on the weekend when I had actual time. I'm around for twilight, huzzah?

[Amazonian Legends]

^--PA