Open 860 | Elected Decisions | Postgame
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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HOLD IT RIGHT THERE
Before we get into RVS or SSS or any other vote flinging...
First thing we need to do is sort out HOW we're playing this game. I think we should approach each decision separately, as much as is feasible. First we decide whether we're Divulging or Departing, then we decide who, and finally we designate a PR.
This way we avoid any hasty decisions or accidental confusion hammers-
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With Divulgence we never have to worry about a mislim, and we have more time to proliferate PRs. However, it does put scum 100% in control of deaths, assuming no PR interference, and in the event we mistakenly give scum a PR and they role Vengeful or Vig or PGO or something... That could be very problematic.
I do think having safety in eliminations and more PRs overall is worth that risk though.
VOTE: Divulgence-
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We have THREE votes to make here, not just two. Though the rules do seem to indicate we CAN combine the divulge/depart vote as some have been doing, I think that's a bad idea and we should take things separately, otherwise someone is going to accidentally hammer something and we're all confused and also dead-
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1. Divulgence or DepartureIn post 136, PenguinPower wrote:
? - what's the third vote....divulge/depart, nominate for PR....and?In post 134, Radical Rat wrote:We have THREE votes to make here, not just two. Though the rules do seem to indicate we CAN combine the divulge/depart vote as some have been doing, I think that's a bad idea and we should take things separately, otherwise someone is going to accidentally hammer something and we're all confused and also dead
2. Who is getting Divulged or Departed
3. Who gets the PR-
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Yes. Otherwise people voting "x for departure" and "x for divulgence" will stack toward hammering x, and potentially someone not keeping track would accidentally hammer-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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So you don't anticipate ANYONE getting confused by having "competing" wagons that are also kind of the same wagon?In post 148, Galron wrote:In post 145, PenguinPower wrote:
no - we make them the target of the divulge. either they're cleared or we depart them the next day.In post 144, Galron wrote:It's not explicitly stated but I guess that's one way to do it although locking into a divulge course and then someone gets scummy, do we revote?
I was thinking asking the lines that pp was. I think we're aware enough to know what's being hammered.In post 146, Radical Rat wrote:Yes. Otherwise people voting "x for departure" and "x for divulgence" will stack toward hammering x, and potentially someone not keeping track would accidentally hammer-
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Perhaps more likely is the other way around, people voting all voting for Divulgence, but on different players, and Divulgence gets hammered prematurely.In post 153, Galron wrote:Explain please, Rad
In either case though, it is very feasible that a player who does not fully grasp the voting mechanics, isn't paying close enough attention, or just loses track in between VCs to accidentally hammer one or the other. Ideally yes, we'd all be aware of the gamestate and not do that, but by doing things one step at a time we remove any possibility for such accidents.-
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Been focusing on the mech because I think it's important to get sorted, as well as being what the first vote should be, but I do indeed have reads.In post 197, Roden wrote:I'm not impressed with Rat's posts so far. The mech talk is fine, but that's all they've done so far. They don't really have any reads or readable interactions yet.
@Rat:Could you give us some reads soon?
I think Enchant is probably Town. I don't believe I've played with Nancy before, but Andante's posts look like Andante, and I like the Taly push.
Taly is probably a scumlean for me, looks kinda like they might be trying to buddy Galron. Definitely my preference for a Divulgence.
No one else has really done much that stands out to me-
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Problem is if they don't roll bulletproof the first time, they're deadIn post 212, Enchant wrote:Why no one wanted to get Bulletproof?
It's literally possibility to scream "Divulge me and give all PRs to me".
Immortal Tracker/Doctor/Jailkeeper is Kind of Ass.-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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Fine, I guess? I don't really understand why you're asking this, but yeah, being townread is good?In post 217, Frogsterking wrote:I think you sound believably cautious, Radical Rat. How does that make you feel to be town binned for sounding believably cautious?-
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It's the vibes. Difficult to quantify but I've been with Town!Enchant in a few games lately, and this feels the same.In post 218, Roden wrote:
I don't particularly disagree with these readsIn post 201, Radical Rat wrote:
Been focusing on the mech because I think it's important to get sorted, as well as being what the first vote should be, but I do indeed have reads.In post 197, Roden wrote:I'm not impressed with Rat's posts so far. The mech talk is fine, but that's all they've done so far. They don't really have any reads or readable interactions yet.
@Rat:Could you give us some reads soon?
I think Enchant is probably Town. I don't believe I've played with Nancy before, but Andante's posts look like Andante, and I like the Taly push.
Taly is probably a scumlean for me, looks kinda like they might be trying to buddy Galron. Definitely my preference for a Divulgence.
No one else has really done much that stands out to me
What makes Enchant town to you?-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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Eh, this kind of thing happens to me a lot, I don't think it's really AI... yet.In post 204, Frogsterking wrote:
FMPOV this is SvT, Roden is scum trying to shade RR.In post 201, Radical Rat wrote:
Been focusing on the mech because I think it's important to get sorted, as well as being what the first vote should be, but I do indeed have reads.In post 197, Roden wrote:I'm not impressed with Rat's posts so far. The mech talk is fine, but that's all they've done so far. They don't really have any reads or readable interactions yet.
@Rat:Could you give us some reads soon?
I think Enchant is probably Town. I don't believe I've played with Nancy before, but Andante's posts look like Andante, and I like the Taly push.
Taly is probably a scumlean for me, looks kinda like they might be trying to buddy Galron. Definitely my preference for a Divulgence.
No one else has really done much that stands out to me-
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Spoiler: I am perpetually 12 and I'm sorry-
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This is NOT what I meant.In post 277, Fun Times wrote:In post 7, Radical Rat wrote:and finally we designate a PR.
What are the odds these 2 are maf together, and maf was under the understanding of "we pick the PR people are given"In post 39, Galron wrote:
Why give that info to mafs? Both pieces?In post 34, Enchant wrote:Why choose three, you can get only one.
Pick with wisdom.
Obviously Neighborizer is best one.
Cause, the PR thing is the MOST CLEAR part of the setup, but if maf are assuming we pick the PR, they're gonna start thinking that way, and yeah... I was reading for something else, and noticed RR and Galron both just instantly assuming town picks the PR, while both seeming to understand a lot of the other mechanics, so this kinda jumped out at me, and I thought it was worth bringing up. Like, if you KNOW all about divulge/departure, shouldn't you also KNOW PRs are assigned randomly? like, it literally says that... idk. just an observation for yall. I'll probably push it once one of them flips scum. so just a heads up
-Andante
I suppose I could have worded better, but when I said "designate the PR" I meant designate the person who would become a PR, not the actual role they receive. And if you look at my other posts, I'm pretty sure I was more clear on that elsewhere-
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This game would be beyond broken if we could choose the PR-
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I guess this one's a moot point since Enchant apparently immediately "corrected" me, which I didn't even notice at the time, but... eh.In post 304, Radical Rat wrote:And if you look at my other posts, I'm pretty sure I was more clear on that elsewhere-
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HURT: Frogsterking
Scum townspewing Roden if I'm correct here-
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While I don't oppose divulging Greeting inherently, it makes no sense for Frogster to not want to divulge Roden in favor of Departing him later. The only reason he should want that is if he knows the Divulgence will reveal Roden as Town, and wants to avoid that happening-
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If you're Town, I have no idea what your angle here is. But we can sort that out together after you kindly divulge your alignment to us.
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It's not the ONLY thing you can be doing, but when you specifically say that you don't want to Divulge Roden so that you can "kill him quickly" later, that's a huge red flag to me. We have the means to (relatively) safely identify scum without risking a mislim, and you explicitly oppose doing so for Roden specifically, not just that you'd rather divulge someone else for now.-
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I'd be willing to go on Galron, yeah. Frogster would still be my preference though, because red there would essentially clear Roden as well (even in a hypothetical bussing scenario, Divulgence would get the job done better...), so it's kinda like two checks at once.-
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If I were to guess it'd be that "Kitty" is used as a female name/nickname sometimes, and has developed a feminine connotation as a resultIn post 420, KittyTacky wrote:
It actually got reset during the pronoun rework, will fix. I'm just wondering why people default to female for me.In post 417, Fun Times wrote:You should change it in your control panel to show your preference.
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VOTE: Divulge Frogsterking
Since apparently the hurt tag didn't work like I thought it might-
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Fun Times, would you be willing to join on Frog?-
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To me he's absolutely Not making sense, so I have no idea what you're seeing here. Though you aren't the first to say he's normally erratic/unpredictable, I still can't imagine this as Town right now. It seems like he does have clear goals, and that those goals are Mafia-orientedIn post 469, Greeting wrote:My experience with reading Frogsterking is that he's very unpredictable and erratic (KTaNE). My impression is that he's surprisingly making some sense in this game and making an effort, which makes me paranoid and unwilling to trust him at all. Doesn't mean he's necessarily scum though. I wouldn't mind getting him Divulged though.-
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Change your mind on "saving him to kill quickly" then?In post 474, Frogsterking wrote:VOTE: Roden I still think if you want to hit scum this is the best slot for that.-
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I'm pretty sure this is TvT.
Have more thoughts but my break is almost over, no time to write them out right now.-
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If you would read the post, you would see the reason I didn't share them, that being the end of my break and a lack of time to write a longer post.In post 542, Frogsterking wrote:
This post is scummy though for real. Why does Radical Rat feel a need to defend his thoughts, and if he has reasons for what he's saying, why not share them?In post 536, Radical Rat wrote:I'm pretty sure this is TvT.
Have more thoughts but my break is almost over, no time to write them out right now.-
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Now that I am off work, I have the ability to elaborate further.
But yeah, it looked to me like Bella and Andante we're just talking past one another. Bella did definitely answer Andante's questions, if not quite to her satisfaction, but I get the sense that Bella herself doesn't fully understand the reason her read changed beyond what she's already expressed. And sometimes that happens.
For Andante's part, it looks like she was hyperfocusing on Bella's personal grievances ('too aggressive', wanting to talk to Nancy instead, etc.), and overlooking Bella's genuine attempts to answer the questions in between.
In both cases, it looks like frustrated Town, and not Mafia flavored aggression, so I believe the exchange to have been TvT.-
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At present, I would be willing to move to Galron, but my preference is still Frogster.
Galron is an "I have no idea how to read" slot, while Frog is an active scumread.
Enchant, Fun Times, Bellaphant, and Roden are all fairly strong townreads, and I'd rather not divulge them today.-
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I'd have to go back and look at Greeting. Off the top of my head, I have no strong impression one way or the other.-
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Alright, there's definitely weirdness going on with Greeting. Especially not fond of him going "I don't think I'm very towny," but eh. I'll throw 'em in with Taly in the scumlean but lower priority pile.-
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Elaborate on this for me please. I understand that he acts similarly as Town from what people are saying, but that isn't enough for me to discount what I perceive to be clear scum motivation behind his actions. Did you also find that heIn post 575, Fun Times wrote:Btw, I did a bit of a metadive on Frogs last night and I agree with Andante that he’s probably town here.doesn'tact like this as scum? Do you have games you think provide particularly good examples of either?-
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Hey look that's me! I was wondering what game it was I recognized Frogster from.In post 590, Fun Times wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89120&user_select%5 ... &start=200In post 578, Radical Rat wrote:
Elaborate on this for me please. I understand that he acts similarly as Town from what people are saying, but that isn't enough for me to discount what I perceive to be clear scum motivation behind his actions. Did you also find that heIn post 575, Fun Times wrote:Btw, I did a bit of a metadive on Frogs last night and I agree with Andante that he’s probably town here.doesn'tact like this as scum? Do you have games you think provide particularly good examples of either?
Frogs - town
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88949&user_select%5B%5D=16233
Frogs - scum
In any case, I do see your point here. Scum game seems more concerned with his own image, as well as being somewhat "softer."
I still kinda want to divulge him tbh, but I know I have a tunneling problem, so I'll come back to it later with more information.-
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VOTE: Divulge Galron
I keep going back and forth between preferring Greeting or Galron here. Settling on Galron because he's not V/LA and I think Kitty's right about it mostly being a win/win.
Though I also don't care much for Kitty just going "I'm Town" and dipping after being voted...-
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Actually no, I think I will
VOTE: Divulge Greeting
Kitty makes me feel weird enough about Galron to not trust the wagon, and if Greeting does happen to flip red, that may help me with sorting out Frogsterking...-
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I have typed out like three posts changing my vote again (Taly, back to Frog, back to Galron, now settling on Greeting again), so I am banning myself from the thread for at least a little while to give my brain time to calm down-
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In post 582, KittyTacky wrote:
Yeah, outright asking to be divulged could be a mafia WIFOM play. The more I think about it, the more likely he's scum.In post 481, Fun Times wrote:
I didn’t like Galron voting self-divulge. Saying feel free to divulge me reads +town but actually self-divulging when no one is even voting you or maybe only one other slot - seems a bit over the top to me. In any case, Galron told me to “blow him up” in NEP game, correctly calculating I would obviously be hesitant to do so. That shit only works once on me.In post 479, KittyTacky wrote:
You are my only concrete scumread, now that I think about it. I usually take a little while to start making lots of reads.In post 468, Galron wrote:KittyTacky do you have any scum reads?
VOTE: Divulge Galron
~NIn post 422, KittyTacky wrote:
I'm fine with being divulged so my admittedly poor play doesn't become a distraction to town.In post 376, RCEnigma wrote:I meant frog!scum not Galron!scum but the quote is still being taken out of context and it’s by multiple slots so I may not be explaining well.
I think Kitty throwing reads out without depth is typical of their scum game so they would be an ideal candidate to learn the alignment of. With that in mind I don’t think I’m the hypothetical world where kitty is scum, that frogster would be pressuring a partner (kitty) into expanding those reads the way that they are. So I am positing that I DO NOT think they are scum together. But I have suspicions about each individually.
Boy does that sure look interesting.In post 424, KittyTacky wrote:Like I know I'm town so it's not ideal but I wouldn't complain.
I'm back with a clear head, decided to ISO Kitty since that's where a lot of my thoughts kept returning, and... This struck me.
VOTE: Divulge KittyTacky
This will probably be my final divulgence vote for today, so moving on to heals...-
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If we divulge correctly, the PR will be the biggest target for an NK, unless scum chicken out at the 1/12 chance PGO. So ideally, we should heal a strong townread that we also are okay with dying which.... Is no one, really.
Also for that reason I am wary of the self-healers. Seems weird they'd be signing up to die, but at the end of the day someone has to do it.
I guess who feels most confident in aiming a roleblock/JK shot if they get lucky?-
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What I see scummy is that he accused you of being suspicious for doing something he himself did earlier. Reads like he forgot he'd said that, and then tried to use it as a made up excuse to push you.In post 634, Galron wrote:So what do you see scummy there Rad? More so than Greeting anyway?-
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Why would you be less likely to die as the PR?In post 637, Fun Times wrote:
Well the PR also has a chance to get bp or two shot PGO, so you’d have to weigh that in as well. I actually think I’m less likely to die N1 if it’s me unless PR gets doc and protects me.In post 628, Roden wrote:
PR doesn't mean town leader. I think he's best suited to have the PR since he's a general concensus town read who isn't particularly confident but has a couple specific reads. He has good game sense, but I don't think his day play is strong enough for him to make the pushes he wants to make. But if he's given a PR and rolls Vig or Cop then I think he's got a good chance of making an impact on the game.In post 619, Fun Times wrote:
@Roden, this is why I switched my vote.In post 386, Enchant wrote:It doesh't make me good choice.
You giving town leader (if i survive night) to most foolish person in the room.
I'd rather give you or Rat a PR as we get further into the game since you're town reads who have strong day play. If you're given a PR but get NK'd early, that's more of a loss than Enchant dying early.
~N-
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I don't know that I agree scum would be more likely to target you than the PR if it were someone else, but I do trust you with it if you want it.In post 650, Fun Times wrote:
Because pr can possibly get bp or 2 shot PGO and we’re a universal tr.In post 640, Radical Rat wrote:
Why would you be less likely to die as the PR?In post 637, Fun Times wrote:
Well the PR also has a chance to get bp or two shot PGO, so you’d have to weigh that in as well. I actually think I’m less likely to die N1 if it’s me unless PR gets doc and protects me.In post 628, Roden wrote:
PR doesn't mean town leader. I think he's best suited to have the PR since he's a general concensus town read who isn't particularly confident but has a couple specific reads. He has good game sense, but I don't think his day play is strong enough for him to make the pushes he wants to make. But if he's given a PR and rolls Vig or Cop then I think he's got a good chance of making an impact on the game.In post 619, Fun Times wrote:
@Roden, this is why I switched my vote.In post 386, Enchant wrote:It doesh't make me good choice.
You giving town leader (if i survive night) to most foolish person in the room.
I'd rather give you or Rat a PR as we get further into the game since you're town reads who have strong day play. If you're given a PR but get NK'd early, that's more of a loss than Enchant dying early.
~N
HEAL: Fun Times-
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It definitely seems very townsided.In post 709, RCEnigma wrote:Is this game impossible for scum to win unless the have like 4 people?
VOTE: Divulge
I still think we should do these votes separately.-
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Though it should go faster this time, since I think we're mostly on the same page regarding Divulgence/Departure now-
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It's safer, regardless of odds/evens. Hitting scum is ideal, but if we do miss I'd rather have another conftown as opposed to a mislim. I'd probably keep divulging until it's mandatory not to.In post 718, Roden wrote:RIP Fun Times, saw it coming
I also agree with giving the conftown a PR
HEAL: Kitty
Why do people still want to vote Divulge? We're on odds.-
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Conversely, we don't have a risk of scum getting the PR, and there is a slight chance we end up with an immortal IC.In post 720, Frogsterking wrote:I'm fine with divulging again but I'm not okay with wasting the pr power on Kitty. I FoS all who are in support of Healing Kitty. This is a very convenient choice for scum as they will be able to both kill our IC and our TPR at the same time.
I haven't reached a conclusion here yet myself, but I think I am leaning toward Kitty-
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Yeah, I've thought it through, and I'm pretty sure Kitty needs the PR here.
Risking a Scum PR is just too dangerous, as while Vengeful/Vig are the only IMMEDIATELY useful ones, others such as PGO/Roleblocker/JK, can interfere with other PRs, and even if we do hit Town, scum not killing them is going to create paranoia and we'll probably end up divulging them anyway to be safe.-
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I'm okay with Enchant getting healed, pretty sure he's Town here.
I do still think it's better to do Kitty, but this is fine for now.
Regarding Divulgence, probably Galron, Greeting, or Vivax.
I'll need to reread and such, and should have a verdict later tonight.-
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VOTE: Divulge Vivax
This is where I'm at, I think.
Vivax/Galron interactions look not great, and Taly already left a weird taste in my mouth.-
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Sorry, I've been neglecting this game but I'm here. I'll get caught up within the next few hours-
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If I weren't already voting Vivax, I would be from this post alone.In post 920, Vivax wrote:Galron have you thought about the wonderful scenario in which you get divulged as town? You can embrace the power of an IC instead of leaving it to Greeting.
You can be a town hero in a few simple steps.
We NEED to hit actual scum, and we cannot allow the relative safety of Divulgence to override that need.
Having an IC if we miss is nice, but should Not be the goal.
I do understand that this comes from a scumread, but pushing the idea that Galron should divulge himself as Town is outright dangerous-
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Greeting also continues to not look great, but it seems I'm a bit late to the party on that one-
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Galron I've actually turned around on I think. I do still disagree with the willingness to self-divulge, and the tone is weird, but early on I thought it looked like Taly was buddying him, and now Vivax pushing from weird angles as well. I think it spews Galron's slot Town.-
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It was an impression I got from Taly early on, then as Taly stopped existing you started to look more questionable on your own, and now that Vivax has been pushing you disingenuously it loops back around.In post 946, Galron wrote:
You thought taly was buddying me, thus I'm town when that happened, but you've turned around now to a town read on me?In post 939, Radical Rat wrote:Galron I've actually turned around on I think. I do still disagree with the willingness to self-divulge, and the tone is weird, but early on I thought it looked like Taly was buddying him, and now Vivax pushing from weird angles as well. I think it spews Galron's slot Town.-
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From what I can recall, it was something like this:In post 952, RCEnigma wrote:Maybe structured like beginning of game -> mid d1 -> Eod 1 -> S/O D2 -> present
And a short bit about why you read Galron that way at each stage.
Initial impression was Town, mostly colored by Taly interactions.
As the day went on, tone was weirdly aggressive in some places, and I think there was either self-healing or self-divulging happening? Either way, looked sketchy to me.
Near the end, I found Kitty to be scummier, and since Kitty was also pushing for Galron, it led to me hesitating and deciding to do Kitty first.
Starting today, I had Galron in my PoE, since nothing much had changed and my concerns about Kitty were clearly unfounded.
Then I vanished for a while by accident, and when I was catching up Vivax's interactions with Galron made Vivax look worse and Galron better, culminating in Vivax's post trying to bait a hypothetical Town!Galron into voting himself, which when combined with my earlier impression from Taly makes Galron come out looking Town.-
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I think you're reading way too into things here. It makes far more sense to assume "tomorrow" just means "next elimination" in this context than that RCE would be openly and explicitly announcing planned mislimsIn post 959, Roden wrote:RC...you hammered Greeting then pre-flipped him as green, that's what I'm talking about here-
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What Roden appears to be saying is that by treating it as a known fact that we will be voting for someone else tomorrow, you must have preknowledge of Greeting flipping green, since otherwise tomorrow would be dedicated to eliminating them.-
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Though ironically, I think it may be that Roden is making the same slip he accuses you of...-
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VOTE: Depart Greeting-
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HEAL: EnchantIn post 998, Galron wrote:Frog was spewed town so that's fine.
I want to turn Enchant into a Mafia hunting supersoldier-
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That quote was not supposed to happen-
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