Open 208 - Fire & Ice Mafia >Over!<

[ICEninja]

Alright lets get this going.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself. I am a fairly new but quite capable player. I am in timezone PST, which I believe is GMT - 8 for those not familiar. I post frequently, and my posts are quite long and well explained, so if you're one of those people who don't like to read a whole thought process you may have to bear with me. I may include TL;DR summaries for certain posts if it seems like people need them. Hopefully everyone will just read what I post though, as I don't tend to waste votes.

I'm not a fan of random voting so instead I'd like to ask everyone what their timezone is, to give people an idea of when you're most likely to be posting.

Oh and RayFrost, no hard feelings about last game right?

[ICEninja]

Vote: ICEninja
Obviously Fire Mafia.

Oh no this couldn't possibly be true. Me being a fire mafia would cause me to become a living contradiction and the space time continuum would be in jeopardy. Would you be willing to risk the universe by making me a fire mafia? A townie wouldn't. A mafia, perhaps, might be willing to gamble the fate of everything for personal gain.

I've got my eye on you Mindgamer!

[ICEninja]

Why specifically accuse him of being Fire Mafia? Seems like an Ice Mafia slip-up to me.

That is definitely not what I took from this. You seriously think that someone saying that ICE is obviously a fire mafia in his random vote is a scum slip? People frequently joke in their first vote.

I personally, however, don't like it when people say intentionally wrong things in a mafia game, even in RVS, as it has potential to lead to misinterpretations and confusion. So while I disagree with you feeling like this is a scum slip, I agree with you calling out Mindgamer for that post.

[ICEninja]

I don't quite follow you... do you think what Mindgamer said was scummy or just something that should be discouraged?

Oh just discouraged. Just throwing out statements in the RVS is fine, but not everyone gets jokes. My response to that vote was obviously also a joke, but I didn't say anything that was intentionally the opposite of what should have been said.

It's mostly just a pet peeve. I'm definitely not going to throw down a vote for it.

To answer the question directed to which role I enjoy the most, I can't really say being that I haven't played enough games to get very many of them. I think I prefer to play town as opposed to scum, however, simply because when you're scum you already know everyone's alignment for the most part. When you are town, you have limited information so there's the thrill of the flip, and the thrill of figuring out new things based on imperfect information. That sort of thing is why I play mafia.

I agree that most of the random questions asked don't help to get conversation started. I'm going to try to have some that do a better job.

RayFrost, what is prompting your desire for a play style change? Did you feel the way you were playing before wasn't good enough?
Sanhora, do you think that pointing out something that is obviously a joke as a joke stifles useful discussion? If so, what do you feel useful about a vote based on someone's joke, declaring it a scumslip?
DarkLight, how do you feel that gaining someone's preferences on roles or other games they play starts discussion? Doesn't it seem too much like rolefishing, as the responses probably aren't going to merit a counter response?
Scott, are you going to be suspicious of RayFrost if he starts lurking later in the game?
pwnman, was your vote on Mindgamer a random vote?

[ICEninja]

I am also quite noob myself, is a village idiot a role that isn't anywhere in the wiki, or is it simply a town player who is anti-town?

If you looked it up in the wiki, why do you need to ask? >_>
My answer: Look it up in the wiki (again, if you're ICEninja). ~Nik

[ICEninja]

This does not equal an adequate defense.

Perhaps not, but the vote against him is based off a vote placed in the RVS, or more specifically, an explanation of said vote.

Now at the same time, I don't actually get the feeling that pwnman's vote was random, nor do I feel that he explained his vote very well. I really don't like his style of 1 liners all over the place, as it seems like he's contributing but his posts don't actually say anything.

There is absolutely potential for there to be scum here. I'm not going to join the bandwagon at this time, however, as I would prefer pwnman to actually lay out his thought process on why he felt that first post made Mindgamer look scummy, and why he felt it was worth a vote.

If he is unable to do this, then yes he looks very scummy indeed and I may be placing my vote as well.

As a clarification, the fact that Kerrigan just recently understood Mindgamer's little joke (I was hoping my response to the vote would have prevented this but apprently not) is why I dislike people intentionally saying stupidly obvious wrong things, because there's always potential for confusion.

As a further clarification, the way people were using it, i thought a VI was a role, and looked extensively through the role database without success. I finally found the article and realize that it is just a bad townie that gets himself lynched.

[ICEninja]

Welcome DT. What do you think about the first 3 pages so far?

Specifically, what do you think about pwnman and the wagon that has built on him?

[ICEninja]

@Ice

@Timezone discussion
You sir fail at discussion stimulation. It's like asking trivia questions: You are contributing, but not contributing anything of substance which rubs me the wrong way.

That wasn't generating discussion nor was it asking trivia questions. I did that so I could figure out who would be posting in the middle of the night, and not respond to something critical at say, 8 PM on a Thursday my time when people are likely to check posts. The question had nothing to do with discussion, and was more for my personal note to reference when waiting for someone specific to post.

And then 8 posts in a row? Really? That is not at all necessary.

[ICEninja]

@IceNinja
Doesn't want to analyze my post. I'm starting to dislike him even more now because he chose to ignore me, given that he asked for my thoughts. Looks like scum coasting.

What makes you think I ignored you? I read what you said, and have mixed opinions. I don't have a solid stance yet on this whole mess, so I didn't feel it was worth much comment. If you feel that it's scummy to not respond to every player's opinion, I'll tell you what I think of what you said.

You made a somewhat valid argument about Crazy and Kerrigan, but you really are quite apparent in your not understanding the case against pwnman. I don't feel great about pwnman, but at least I understand their point that

had

Mindgamer scum slipped, he is ice mafia, and not fire mafia. I don't think that random joking vote was a scum slip, and therefore don't agree that this post indicates him being either town or scum. As a result, I think pwnman is scummy for taking a joke seriously and for failing to adequately respond to his reasoning. Kerrigan, as I already pointed out several pages ago, made the same argument and I didn't like it any more now than I did then.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm actually finding you somewhat suspicious for how intensely you are pushing against Crazy considering how your case is moderate at best. Not voteworthy, but noteworthy.

However, I feel extremely confident that there is at least one mafia group in the 4 of pwnman, Crazy, Kerrigan, and DT. People are pushing so hard, and I don't think anyone in this game could possibly know who is on scum except for their one scum buddy, and I really don't expect to see any busing on day 1. There's really no reason for anyone to be pushing for a lynch on page 4 without a very seriously damning piece of evidence. There is some hypocrisy and odd arguments flying around, but I'm going to be intensely suspicious of any bandwagon bigger than the 4 votes that fell on pwnman until there is some more substantial evidence.

I don't like the bandwagon against pwnman, but as I already said earlier I don't feel very good about pwnman either so for the time being I'm not going to call the wagon scummy.

[ICEninja]

Alright this is absolutely ridiculous. DT you are nuts. You're pushing on Crazy, and everyone seems to think that Crazy finds Mindgamer as ice scum, when you even quoted the posts when Crazy says he doesn't think that Mindgamer's post was a scum slip, indeed saying that it was a joke.

Crazy's case against pwnman makes sense to me, and the fact that people like DT don't get it and push a case against him makes me feel like they're either not carefully reading the things Crazy is saying or is trying to push a lynch despite it.

DT is throwing all of his might in to a push against Crazy, and it looks awful. You are forcing him to repeat the same answers to your questions over and over again, despite the fact that his responses answer to a lot of your questions. Yet you keep bringing the points up. Crazy is

not

lying about feeling like Mindgamer's post was a joke, because he has said it SEVERAL times. You quoted him saying it in the post where you tried to show him lying. He is absolutely right, if Mindgamer is scum, he is probably ice scum. However I don't think anyone genuinely finds Mindgamer as scum right now except for Kerrigan.

I agree with Scott and DT for telling me to scum hunt a specific target instead of shooting in the dark. I'm calling DT out for an overzealous push against Crazy without understanding what Crazy is saying.

Vote DTMaster

[ICEninja]

Is there someone named "fallen angel" in this game? I don't see a single post from that person.

[ICEninja]

OK DT, your case does now appear to be more focused on Crazy's tunnel vision. You put too much energy, however, in to this case about what he has said about Mindgamer. Your points against him don't add up at all. His case on pwnman is pretty weak, but your case on Crazy isn't much stronger. I'd say right now Kerrigan is looking a lot worse than Crazy. The fact that you switched your vote there does make me feel better about you, but there's still something about how aggressive you are.

I just can't stand how hard you're pushing for a lynch based off the current arguments. Crazy isn't looking great, but I think he's 3rd scummiest right now behind you and Kerrigan. Maybe even 4th behind pwnman, who in my eyes, hasn't contributed a single decent post in this game yet.

I also really don't like Mindgamer's last post. Didn't we learn from the first time that saying blatantly stupid things, assuming people will take them as jokes, is a bad idea? Throwing down a vote that belongs in the RVS then admitting to lurking intentionally is just not acceptable after the first 3 pages of the game. I need some scum reads from you, and reasons behind your scum reads.

I also agree that too many players have minimal activity and ridiculous votes right now. Sanhora can you please point out why you have a vote on me at the moment? Why are there multiple players who haven't posted any decent opinions lately?

[ICEninja]

I have some new things to point out after reading some stuff.

Crazy, for the billionth time, he could've been fire mafia trying to lynch his scum partner so he could look like a townie, or he could be trying to frame someone as fire mafia

This is not for the billionth time. Actually it isn't for the second time, either. This is the first time you've ever actually demonstrated any justification for finding Mindgamer scummy. Do you still find Mindgamer scummy? Also, do you think you could actually post something that helps the town in any shape or form?

Speaking of Mindgamer, he has a grand total of 4 posts. Looking at them in isolation, we have:
His initial joke about me being fire mafia,
An empty post,
Saying he doesn't find pwnman scummy,
And then finally his last post. This is absolutely awful.

Eh... yeah... I don't really see much to do, sorry. :/

My joke could be interpreted as a scumslip. I don't like how Crazy refuses to understand that.

Unvote. Vote: Crazy
Bandwagon go!

/goes back to lurking

Crazy has said many times that he feels like your statement could have been a scum slip, bu that it is probably not. You then vote for the sake of bandwagon, then /going back to lurking. You have risen very high in my scum suspect list.

Sanhora has only posted 3 times, the first one being a random vote and the last one promising to catch up. This is intense lurking, and only has a single post of content. The second post was good, though. If I see more posts like the second one then my suspicion will drop.

Kerrigan actually looks a lot better than I initially thought. He leans on pwnman and Mindgamer a bit early on, and then has a vote on Mindgamer for what I feel are justifiable reasons. My suspicion of Kerrigan stemmed from me initially thinking he leaned too hard on people for joke posts, but upon a closer look, this didn't seem to be the case.

The real one that bothers me is XScorpion. I never really paid attention to him until I finally ISO'd him, only to find a complete vortex of content. Multiple votes have been thrown around for little or no reason, and I somehow feel less intelligent after reading his posts.

Crazy is caught in a mild contradiction for the piggy backing thing, but doesn't seem too bad for me. Lots of content and good explanation, but I really don't like how much force he puts in to his arguments.

My opinion on DT remains the same. Lots of scummy pushes to get people lynched without serious arguments.

Darklight is a little content shy, but seems OK. Deer and Scott seem OK.

DT looks bad, Mindgamer looks bad, pwnman looks bad, and XScorpion looks bad. For the moment I'm going to continue pressure on DT until I feel satisfied about any arguments and votes he has thrown down.

[ICEninja]

I like how you agree with me, yet at the same time call me scummy for it. I also like how you call agression, a play style choice, scummy when it is a matter of play stayle.

I agree with a couple of your points. Other points seem to be you just not getting it. Aggression is a play style, sure, but attempting to get someone lynched starting page 4 is not pro town.

My case against Crazy is fairly similar to my case against you. This here just about sums it up:

I am tunneling because I really think pwnman is scum. There's nobody today I would rather lynch than pwnman; I don't even think there's anybody I could lynch instead of pwnman even if I wanted too.

He had this already decided by page 4 or so, and that is not enough. Not even close. However I don't find his case to be quite as riddled with confusion as yours.

However, you do raise a few valid points. My problem with your cases against Kerrigan and Crazy are not because I find them town, they've both done a few scummy things, but because you've been trying to end the day too early. I just find it hard to believe that town is going to be ready to lynch someone so early.

I must also consider what a push against either of you would mean. IMO both DT and Crazy respond fairly well to attacks against them while other players simply look really bad. This combined with the fact that a mislynch on DT would be quite bad for the town, I am going to switch my focus.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, XScorpion has not posted any content worth reading. He has thrown around votes without reason or explanation, probably hoping to find an easy bandwagon target. He is, in my eyes, in the same boat as Mindgamer except with a higher post count. He just looks like he is trying to post without actually saying anything, which is exactly what scum strives to do day 1. I just don't see any rational for town posting the way he is posting. Therefore I would like to

unvote, vote XScorpion

.

Seriously, look at this.

Reckless all the way. I just felt like doing something awesome ^_^

How is throwing down a random vote well after the RVS is over awesome? It is meaningless and without explaining why Kerrigan merits a vote, you simply should not have a vote there.

[ICEninja]

I never had a vote on Crazy. I never found him extremely scummy, only somewhat. He's pushed quite hard, too hard, on pwnman. He wasn't the one to start the bandwagon, and he accused pwnman of piggy backing on Kerrigan's logic against Mindgamer and did a small amount of piggy backing himself, thus was caught in a small contradiction. As a result, I find him scummy to some degree. Definitely not the most scummy, however.

DT, you called people out for not taking a stance while the cases against people were still in their early stages. You were calling for more votes on people, as well. Maybe you weren't pushing at lynch zone yet, but you were definitely pushing towards a lynch. I'm not saying your case has no merit or value. It has some for sure, but not enough to call someone scummy enough for a lynch, as you essentially just did. However, I don't see you as a threat to me personally. I see ending day 1 too early as a threat to the town. That is completely different.

My initial vote on DT was based on how he simply didn't understand why Crazy was voting pwnman. DT somehow insisted that Crazy felt that Mindgamer's initial post was scummy, which he did not. Once DT's focus on Crazy shifted towards being overly aggressive with tunnel vision, which is a combination that is deadly to town, I felt better about his aggressiveness. His case had much more merit at that point. Right now, however, he seems to have switched his vote to me without all that much of a case.

It is understandable that different people feel like votes mean different things. I generally don't throw my vote around, and wait until I have a full blown case before i put one down. My vote on XScorpion is actually a bit uncharacteristic of my play style, and I am simply trying to adapt to this game. Some people, like DT, use their vote to gain reactions and scum hunt. Neither is wrong, so I'm willing to accept that I've been too hard on DT for his scum hunting. It is, however, too early to be asking for more votes to pile on someone without a significant case.

Kerrigan, I am simply considering both the pros and cons of lynching a player. DT is doing the best scum hunting out of any player here. Because of the amount of force he scum hunts with, I am keeping a close eye on him, but I definitely want to see where his pushes drive people before a train runs him over.

As for my switch to a vote on XScorpion, I ask everyone to read his posts in isolation and try to think of reasons to NOT vote him.

I have mixed feelings about Mindgamer's post. I'm not going to revise my opinion of him quite yet.

[ICEninja]

Voting without a real explanation is consistently a bad idea.

I voted XScorpion for doing exactly this. Why are you criticizing me for voting someone who has repeatedly done something that is consistently a bad idea?

I do agree with your vote on pwnman, though, he is probably my second target. I really want to see XScorpion contribute something to this game, so I really want to leave my vote where it is for the moment. Once my concerns about XScorpion are alleviated then I can move on to either pwnman or Mindgamer. If XScorpion continues to do foolish things in the name of not taking this game seriously, then I will hold my vote.

I do not find jokes and making light of the game inherently scummy. I find throwing out random votes and contributing absolutely nothing to the game scummy.

It is more than "just a few people" that are lurking. You call pwnman a lurker when others post even less than him. I'd say it is about 5 people lurking, which, when exaggerated, is the whole freaking town. Or about 5 people more than it should be, at least.

I'm looking at you, Sanhora with your 3 posts. If you aren't going to play, then replace out.

[ICEninja]

DT you have some very large logic holes in your case against me. I would like to point them out.

Saying that this case was in the early stages, then lecturing me about how my case on Crazy was unfounded due to pwn's scumminess is very very contradicatory

I never said that your case on Crazy was unfounded due to pwnman's scumminess. This is either your own very mislead interpretation of my points against you or twisting of my words to suit your case. I found pwnman moderately scummy, but never felt that the wagon on him was a good thing. The problem where your case was unfounded was because you didn't understand Crazy's case. You still seem to not because your attacks are still so riddled with confusing and misinterpretation that are still being carried through. If it continues, it is going to be quite damaging to the town.

Town in their right minds would not quick lynch, and its more likely scum on said wagon would because it cuts discussion, the bread and butter for townies.

Regardless, you seemed like you wanted the quick lynch. You were pushing for more votes on someone, which is essentially asking the town for a lynch. Would you have gone back and said "well I asked for votes not a lynch!!!" had a quick lynch on pwnman happened?

So you called me scummy for being right in the context of my case? And that Crazy case was valid given that: when I made it, it was bloody valid?

Once again you misinterpreted what I said. The early stage of your case against Crazy was largely based off of your misunderstanding of Crazy's case against pwnman. This was not valid. After a while you started switching your attack on Crazy to primarily be about how he tunneled (and continues to do so) on pwnman. I agree with you about this, so therefore your case became more valid once you switched from a case based off of your own misunderstanding to a point I felt was true.

It's like saying:
You were right, but now you are wrong.

No, it is like saying you were initially stupid, but then you changed your attack to reasons that make sense.

The hardcore lurker is Sanhora, you're active lurking, Scott hasn't posted much content, Mindgamer is hardcore lurking, and Darklight seems to be lurking to a small extent.

[ICEninja]

Oh yes and add pwnman to the list of people lurking.

[ICEninja]

You get to analyze: How they defend, who they think is scummy, and why. You get to see their reasoning, and you can determine if it makes sense. Therefore you can find out if someone is scummy or not.

OK, I will concede the point. There was minimal risk of a quick lynch.

Hm? Hold on, did you just admit that I'm part of the town? See the above part.

No, I said damaging to the town, not town. Damaging to the town makes you anti-town, which sometimes means scummy, sometimes not.

Why didn't you press harder on pwnman given the above quote? Also if you felt that scum could have been on the wagon against pwnman, why haven't you done anything until I've raised conerns about said wagon?

There were, I believe, 4 votes on pwnman at the time. It was around the time when I was going to apply some pressure to him that you blasted in to the game and my attention fell on you. I guess you can say 8 consecutive posts of rambling, followed by a lot of bolded and colored text riddled with confusion distracted me.

Also, I find it interesting that you've dodged my point about you being confused about Crazy's case. About 3 times, I might add. However, you seem to be shaping up in your scum hunting and your understanding of the game so as I've stated earlier, my suspicion of you has dropped.

I believe XScorpion is actively lurking, throwing down useless posts that just seem to add to his post count without actually saying anything. Out of 7 posts made by XScorpion, only 1 or 2 is even relevant to the game at all. I'm not counting RVS. It is one thing to throw your vote all over the place if you're like DT and explaining it. XScorpion is still holding a vote for Kerrigan with literally no justification for it. I just can't see how this guy is town, and even if he is town, he's simply going to hurt us down the line.

My vote stands.

Mod, if Sanhora comes back with a comment about catching up or w/e and doesn't follow through with it in a day or 2, can you look for a replacement? 3 posts at 7 pages in the game is not acceptable.

[ICEninja]

How is a case on Crazy and a defence of pwnman damaging to the town again? You seem to say that my case on Crazy was anti-town to make.

Your case wasn't anti-town, it was just confused at first. If you make more cases in the future that are confused then it will be damaging to the town. If you continue to understand people's cases, are you are now, then this won't be a problem.

I'm sorry if this is something people do a lot here, as I'm still fairly new to mafia scum, but could you avoid switching avatars? I use it at a glance to tell who is posting and it keeps me in line better as I had to go back and reaffirm more than once that it was indeed you who posted because of a different avatar.

Now about XScorpion, I'm really torn what to think about this guy. I recall reading about a strange gambit that involved trying to get yourself lynched so that people think you're a jester, and then get ignored for the rest of the game. It looked an awful lot like this. That definitely seems stretching for it a bit, though, and it's hard to get a read on. I agree with Nacho to some extent that we should lynch scum instead of idiot, but I've done some reading on pwnman and he is simply an incompetent player. He consistently posts short, worthless, scummy things seemingly regardless of alignment. I'd say because of this, and DT's meta read on XScorpion, that they both fall under the same category. My vote will stand for now. He's most certainly anti-town, and quite possibly scummy. However I'd be willing to switch to pwnman if he gives me more reason to believe he is scum instead of incompetent.

[ICEninja]

Where do you draw the line? At what point does he become scum? Clearly he is not going to change his useless one-liners.

Honestly I cant see myself lynching him day 1 in good conscience. Being that he is so hard to read because of his incompetence, I'm going to need some vote analysis or process of elimination to really find him scummy. Other than that, he's going to more or less remain in my eyes as anti-town who looks somewhat scummy.

As a result it seems like, as someone in another game he is in worded it, lynching him is like folding a hand of poker. You don't have enough to bet on, so you go with the lynch that isn't going to damage the town. Doing this day 1 to me seems like a last resort, and as scummy as he looks, I really don't think we should go after him until we've exhausted the better possibilities.

However, should someone bring up more points that can't be explained by his incompetence, then I will likely change my mind. Either way, it generally seems like a bad idea to have a closed mind to anything during day 1.

[ICEninja]

unvote
Vote: Sanhora
POST OR DIE!

Sanhora is probably going to be replaced. The prod was sent out more than a day ago, and there's still nothing. This was another pointless vote. This brings your count of pointless votes to 4, 3 if you don't consider the RVS vote.

ICEninja:
Good content, but a little scummy. A slight scum read.

Could you point out what makes you feel my good content is slightly scummy?

Mindgamer:
Seems unserious about the whole deal. Just playing along. Scum read.

Nachomamma:
As with mindgamer, seems to be playing along. Neutral read.

You have the same comment about both of these players, where one gets a scum read and the other gets a neutral read. What sets them apart?

RayFrost:
Not much to comment upon. However I believe him. Town read.

He replaced out long ago. He also contributed a similar amount of content as Sanhora, so i don't see where you can possible have gotten a town read.

Vote: Mindgamer

Just starting somewhere.

Unless I am misinterpreting your scale of who is scum and who is town, you're voting for the person who you find 3rd scummiest. Why not start with Kerrigan or XScorpion, who fall even closer to the scummy read?

If you insist on Mindgamer, tell us what specifically he has done that makes you feel he merits a vote.

[ICEninja]

Just human instincts. I get a feeling of a scumminess in it all, including this inquiry.

You just called me "somewhat scummy" without any basis at all. There is absolutely nothing scummy about inquiring about that. If you had a genuine case on me, then I would like to hear it. You don't, and your somewhat scummy read on me is just gut.

Sorry, I realized that might be unclear. It's not a ladder scale, but a category scale. I'm reciding a bit on XScorpion.

Fair enough.

[ICEninja]

You're underestimating a "just gut" read. That being said, I agree with DLA to an extent. Your inquiry gives me an overreacting vibe, and you trying to test just how scummy DLA finds you so you can react accordingly, if that makes any sense.

I suppose that is one way of interpreting it, but I would hardly consider it an overreaction. It was merely a request for more information. Town needs more information. If he had something of substance about me that he found scummy, then I would gladly respond to it. Since there isn't much I can say about a gut read, I will simply go back to scum hunting.

I did.

You did what? You got a town read on RayFrost? Perhaps I'm missing something, but let me quickly break down the posts he made before replacing.
ISO 0, not random voting.
ISO 1, saying he'll post less than he usually does.
ISO 2, talks about a previous game he played with someone here.
ISO 3, stating that he will play differently than normal, and that not posting a lot is different than activity.

I don't see how you could have possibly gotten any read from these posts.

So Scott, you've made a few statements that could be interpreted as you finding suspicion in certain statements made, but you've held your cards very close to your chest. How about you actually call someone out as scummy for once?

There goes XScorpion again, throwing down another vote for a reason that doesn't make sense. You're calling DarkLight scum because he is willing to listen to what other people say? This worthless vote switching isn't going to get us anywhere if you don't have a case that goes along with the vote. You are just not doing anything to alleviate my scum read on you.

Mod, Think we can get a Sanhora replacement if we don't hear from him tomorrow?

[ICEninja]

This is not an answer to the question.

Actually it was. You did not understand the nature of my question. I was asking DarkLight if, because 2 people were lower on the list than you, if he found them more scummy than you. If he did, then why was he voting you?

He clearly stated that since it is a grouping scale instead of a ladder scale, everyone under the same group is the same amount of scummy. Therefore he is not singling you out with others looking more scummy.

HOWEVER that said, I want to alter my question somewhat.
DarkLight, there are 2 players on your scumdar that are just as scummy as Mindgamer. What made you choose to vote Mindgamer instead of the others?
Also, I accept that many people use gut reads to find scum. I personally use it to reinforce more solid information, as I don't trust my own gut over statistics and trends. I'm a marketing and statistics sort of guy, you understand. I won't hold it against anyone to have minor suspicions based on intuition.

As such, I have gut suspicions of several players that seem somewhat off to me. However I don't trust these intuitions over XScorpion's erratic play and won't use those reads to call anyone scummy until I find a more solid piece of evidence to suggest as much.

[ICEninja]

@Scott
Wait. What? Isn't your argument more applicable to Mindgamer then Dark given with what you quoted.?

I was actually thinking this too. You have 2 different people here who seem to be doing the same thing, and yet you're targeting the person who, at least in my opinion, looks slightly less scummy based off that reasoning. Considering how you're finally throwing in your opinion and vote, I figured it would be off something a little stronger than that. I've definitely got my eyes on you Scott.

[ICEninja]

Wow, Kerrigan has been extremely active in Mafia 110 lately, and completely lurking here. That is indeed suspicious.

You do realize there are four scum in this game right? Thinking independently is the key to victory. Don't let your judgment be clouded by what others say.

Maybe I'm missing your point here, but this statement seemed to be completely irrelevant to the rest of your post, and just thrown in there.

[ICEninja]

I hope you mean your own death. Locke Lamora is a lvl 100 Metapod who used Harden 20 times.

Harden maxes out after 6 uses. Come on, mod!

Yeah, but I caught him as a metapod in the wild so it's his only move....

If you were a daytime Cop, who would you investigate right now? And why?

I'm not sure if this is a strange way to rolefish, or if it could actually help at all.

I'm still voting for XScorpion. Seriously, everyone please read him in ISO. It takes about 15 seconds.

[ICEninja]

He's pushing too hard on DTM for my tastes.

You say that in the present tense as if I hadn't backed off of DT several pages ago after I stated that his position changed. I haven't been on his case since.

I understand some of my posts can be lengthy, so I won't jump on you for not realizing my current cases and opinions and such, but from now on, realize that my scum list lately has been XScorpion, Mindgamer, and DarkLight.

I've been on XScorpion for quite a while, and he finally, on page 12, made his first post of the game actually worth reading. The difference between you and pwnman is I have a meta read on pwnman that suggests he is always this incompetent. I have a meta read on you to suggest that you're a half decent player.

Regarding Red's points against DarkLight, I agree with a lot of them. However I simply feel that DarkLight's "trying to be town" is more because of inexperience at being a good townie than being scum. It is a definite possibility, however.

Some time in the near future I'm going to do some ISO reads and if XScorpion continues to make good posts, I'll come back with a case against someone else.

[ICEninja]

OK I just did a complete re-read of DarkLight and I found tons of things that really bugged me.

I'm going to begin explaining my case against him by quoting what he said most recently.

In my games I tend to not really care about the other players' opinions about me. I'm more focussed on using different ways to find scum, one of which you pointed out above.

This statement says 2 things. 1 is that he doesn't care what other people's opinions of him are. 2 is that he's been focusing on scum hunting using "different ways".

In ISO, his early posts are a bit off. His random questions don't do much to get conversation started. Several of them are unrelated to the game at all, and one of them was potentially role fishing. Then he defends pwnman from the early bandwagon. As I've pointed out earlier in this game, I personally agree that people need to be careful about throwing an early bandwagon around. However, he puts his vote on XScorpion for "starting this crap".

XScorpion was simply the first vote on pwnman, and 1 vote that early in the game was fairly justified. However he didn't put your vote on the people who chimed in later, throwing their vote in as well. They were definitely more worthy of a vote based on the bandwagon.

He shortly after switches his vote to DT. He does this because DT attacks Crazy because DT was against the pwnman wagon. Wait a minute, wasn't that what you just did?

Then there's an FoS because Kerrigan votes Mindgamer. Kerrigan's vote, at least in my opinion, was well justified because it pressured Mindgamer to take the game more seriously. That wasn't about Kerrigan jumping on every joke he saw, it was more about him not wanting to put up with people being stupid in this game. Then you make a statement that shows you were obviously confused about which game you were posting in.

A few posts later, DarkLight then throws down a vote on XScorpion simply stating "seriously dude???" without giving any explanation. While this vote wasn't inherantly scummy, it is the fact that this is the 3rd serious vote DarkLight has made in the first week of game play, and is followed by this:

Nachomamma8 wrote:
Darklight, why are you voting Scorpion? You're better than that Sad

I just find his play totally stupid. I'm in to lynch stupid players if it's for the good of the town.

You unvote XScorpion anyway. You caved in to what another player's opinion is of you, thus suggesting that your first statement in your last post was untrue. Also, you have yet to make a single follow up to any vote you have placed at all. Throwing your vote around without purpose is not scum hunting by anyone's definition, so this also discounts your second statement in your most recent post.

The next post DarkLight throws down is his gut reads of all the players. He then follows up the gut reads with a vote on Mindgamer, to "start somewhere". Instead of making a case or doing any scum hunting, he puts down a vote on Mindgamer and the only piece of evidence he has ever given to support his read on Mindgamer is that Mindgamer hasn't taken the game seriously and is just playing along. I might remind you that you voted Kerrigan for jumping on people's jokes, and you posted a silly picture about pi and imaginary numbers that had no relevance to the game either. That vote was completely pointless, and just made it look like you were scum hunting without actually doing any scum hunting.

Then people point out how useless that vote was, and you make this statement:

Okay, that vote was meant for me to be a base in scum hunting, but as you guys seem to not like it:

Unvote

Rolling Eyes Now where do we start

You once again unvoted because other people didn't like what you were doing with your votes. You then defend your vote saying it was "for reactions". However, voting without a reason or a case is only going to get the reaction of people saying you are scum.

ISO post 20, where you do a bit of analysis of Kerrigan is probably the first and so far only post you've made that has even made an attempt to help the town in any way shape or form.

The rest of the posts you've made seem to be you getting nervous and trying to account for things. It doesn't look good, considering how little you've contributed, and now I feel like I have a very solid scum read on you. Your most recent post, saying those 2 things I pointed out earlier, seem to both be outright lies as you have cared on more than 1 occasion what other people think of your votes, and you have done almost no scum hunting. Throwing down a vote on someone only to unvote and vote somewhere else without backing anything up or following anything up is NOT scum hunting.

XScorpion, you're still my number 2 suspect, but if you start playing this game and quit being an idiot, I wont have much left against you.
Therefore I would like to

Unvote, and vote DarkLightA

[ICEninja]

ICE, however, is my favorite of RC's lynch choices. The reason I don't like him is a recent ISO on him; he is certainly a king of posting long posts without posting any content whatsoever. Take for example, ISO 24. He responds to Mindgamer in the first two lines, then continues on and overexplains to make his posts seem more impressive-looking, which is a great tactic for scum to use in a lurkish game like this

I've posted a very significant amount of content. I may use more words than I need to, but there is no ground for saying I post no content at all. Sure my ISO 24 may have been somewhat rambly, but if you want to look at players who haven't said anything, take a look at DarkLight again. Mindgamer falls under a similar category. Sure they don't post as long as I do, but I have points in my posts where they often do not.

[ICEninja]

You occasionally have points, but I don't agree with a whole lot of them and finding them is like finding a needle in a haystack. I'm not criticizing your posts for a lack of content in general, I'm criticizing them for the lowest content:word ratio.

So you basically don't like my play style, and are voting me because out of the 3 people that Red wants to lynch, I'm the one who you don't see eye to eye with. You have no case on me, and as you halfway admitted it's just a difference in politics of the game. I make better posts than you think. I suspect that just because I've put together so many long posts, and a few of them have been excessively wordy and long winded, that you just aren't putting forth the effort to fully read them for comprehension anymore.

[ICEninja]

I'm going to point out that the only person to say it was a difference of "politics" was RedCoyote, not Nacho.

Oh my apologies. It has been difficult sorting out who has said who with all the replacements.

That doesn't change, however, how weak Nacho's case is against me.

[ICEninja]

ICE, my scum read on you has nothing to do with politics.

I corrected myself in my previous post.

And if you want content, take a look at the case I just built against DarkLight.

I also have made quite a few points about DT, was satisfied with his responses, and backed off. I've attempted to scum hunt XScorpion, but it seems like we aren't going to get much out of him. I've also put some pressure on Mindgamer.

[ICEninja]

Man, I really liked Bio's argument against Mindgamer in 295, but then just a few posts later, Mindgamer throws down a post that makes me suspect him a lot less. It seemed like a decent and coherent argument.

Did you retract your argument that he was trying to quicklynch?

Yes I don't feel like finding it specifically to quote, but I said something to the effect of "I see now that there was little danger of a lynch" and stated that I would back off of him for the time being.

As for people questioning me about the distinction between stupid and scummy, I said what I said because my scum reads on XScorpion can be written off as idiotic play. If said idiotic play continues, than the scum read is more established. If he starts playing for real and seems to actually be interested in the game, and stops giving me scum reads, then I'm going to write off much of my case against him as him being an idiot early in the game. At the moment his single good post hasn't done nearly enough, so he remains my number 2 suspect.

As for DT wanting to know why I didn't follow up with my push on Kerrigan, I wanted to see how Kerrigan would respond to the pressure against him while actively lurking. He replaced out of this game and others, which made the suspicions go away. Had he continued to actively lurk, or replaced out of this game while maintaining activity in other games, it would all but assure that his slot is scum. Right now I'm not feeling like that is the case.

For the most part, I feel that the argument against Mindgamer is fairly strong, and although he has made a post recently that gave me a stronger town read on him, I still feel like he would have a high likelihood of flipping scum. Obviously I'm for a DarkLight lynch for my case that I've outlined above. I'm not going to touch Nacho's analysis of my analysis because he ignored multiple points I made in that case, and disagreed with others. Disagreements of opinions and read on things should not be argued without fact, and I simply think we just have a clashing play style. I'm obviously still good with an XScorpion lynch unless he picks things up, too. I'll be tolerant of a deer lynch if it comes down to the deadline, but that isn't my priority. I will, however, go back and read deer again in ISO because that guy seems to have fallen under my radar.

So my current favored lynches are DarkLight > Mindgamer/XScorpion > deer. I may put deer higher on the list if I go back and read him and dislike what I see, but I'm a little worried that the wagon on him isn't based on enough.

[ICEninja]

ICE: do you think something about the Deer wagon is insubstantial? I'll outline my main concerns:

And this is exactly what XScorpion has done, except I feel XScoprion has done it to la larger degree. But it is a bit contradictory, I admit, to suspect XScorpion without suspecting deer. So yes, he has lurked and vote hopped while maybe trying to feel around for a bandwagon, and I'm OK with his lynch, but right now I really want to see a DarkLight lynch.

[ICEninja]

Hold on: You agree that the mindgamer case is strong, but he has a town read. The eff?

ONE POST gave me a town read. Everything else makes me feel like he's scum. That one post gives me pause to see him lynched, but other than that I feel like Mindgamer is probably one of the best lynches for today. I don't need to point out anything, because I've mentioned more than once that I find him scummy, and I've also called him the second best lynch for today. This is not fence sitting, this is not backtracking. This is just questioning my previous (and current) read on him because he posted something that made me feel somewhat better about him. One post isn't enough to reverse the case against him, however, so my scum read on him stands.

Regarding my case against DarkLight, it wasn't destroyed by any means. I didn't see any of DarkLight's votes, save that one post I mentioned, as any form of scum hunting at all. It is obvious as day that DarkLight's unvote of pwnman was not because of realizing any mistake, but because someone called him out on the vote without much reason. DarkLight obviously cares about people's opinions of him, and seems to be pretending to scum hunt to get a townie look without doing any real scum hunting or contributing any town content. A lot of Nacho's response to my case on DarkLight was either disagreeing with my point, or saying I didn't make a point. I may have used a lot of words to do it, but I pointed out why what DarkLight did was scummy, useless, or anti-town. Nacho refuted a few of my points, as most of the points made against DarkLight that were based off the first 5 pages were weak, but the number of worthless votes thrown around without followup and the amount of pointless unvoting without scum hunting just gives me seriously bad vibes.

I can't simply restate the same things over again because Nacho is simply going to disagree with them again. This doesn't help anyone. I still need to do my re-read of deer, though. Another game has an even closer deadline so this game has slightly lower priority.

[ICEninja]

OK so I did a re-read of deer in ISO, and I see a lot of the points against him. However I feel like he's been accused of similar things as XScorpion, but seems to make half assed attempts to scum hunt. It looks somewhat bad, but I think I'll leave him as a tolerable, though not preferred, lynch for today.

I currently stand at DarkLight and Mindgamer roughly equal, mostly because of things I've already said about DarkLight and because I really like the points DT brought up about Mindgamer. XScorpion and deer follow for doing similar things.

[ICEninja]

So what you're saying is...you think that scummy and stupid are the same thing? I'm not getting where you're coming from...what makes a smart player more town than a stupid one?

What I'm saying is that a complete idiot does scummy things. Should you prove that you're a better player than you've shown, then I would be inclined to believe you simply just haven't taken this game seriously at all and have posted whatever you've felt like instead of playing to your win condition. This is a null read, and I would have to revisit my thoughts on you completely, taking in to consideration your posts that actually show evidence of you scum hunting and helping the town.

If this is not the case, then I am inclined to believe that you're scum attempting to have a post count while not actually having to say anything, to vote without having any case, and to defend yourself with a sentence or two when someone calls you out without doing any real scum hunting the whole game.

Bio, I feel similarly about deer. He has done a few scummy things, but overall isn't the best lynch today.

[ICEninja]

Sorry for the double post, but I just realized that I actually agree with XScorpion about something. dana came in with 5 posts basically talking about catching up or how bad this game has been, and then finally a 6th post voting deer on sheer gut without even citing a single reason.

dana please give us specific reasons about what deer has done that makes you self-defecatingly scared. It is far too close to the deadline to just hop on a bandwagon without giving reasons, that is just deadly.

[ICEninja]

Sorry, but can you quote/link/recite "this one post". I'm searching, but it's buried in your iso.

I liked Mindgamer's ISO 12. Right around that point in the game I was feeling like Mindgamer was just trying to scoot by as if he was pretending to play without really playing. ISO 12 demonstrated a bit of scum hunting and responded to a lot of things, and I felt a bit better about him after the post.

I do, however, agree with most of the things Bio has to say about Mindgamer in ISO 4, and I felt that Mindgamer has been actively lurking to some extent through a majority of the game. The thing keeping my vote away from him right now are the little tidbits that he points out that are pretty good.

For example, he asked me how his question about a day cop could be role fishing. Honestly I'm not sure, it just seems like something that could be role fishing depending on people's answers.

For the most part, though, I feel as if Mindgamer has done a minimum of scum hunting, and uses a lot of quotes in his post with very few of his own words. He seems to be posting a lot more than he really is.

All this leads me to feel that Mindgamer is a decent lynch for today, but not the best.

[ICEninja]

Alright I feel the need to address Nacho in further detail now.

First, I would like to point out that he defended DarkLight before DarkLight had a chance to respond, whic is somewhat scummy.

Your first few points aren't even worth talking about, because they aren't addressing much of my case. Then we get to this:

Ummm... that wasn't scummy; that was a well-placed attack. In attacking the reasoning of the leader, you force all the sheep to defend the reasoning themselves, make reasoning of their own, or get off the bandwagon. So why was his "cutting off the head of the snake", so to speak, scummy?

This is a difference of opinions. He should have attacked the people hopping on the bandwagon who seemed like they actually believed in it, instead of the person who threw down a vote for something slightly scummy. DarkLight essentially did to XScorpion what DarkLight was voting XScorpion for. That is hypocritical.

He gives reasoning for his DT vote in ISOs 6,8. Where are you getting this from...?

Crazy didn't misinterpret any joke, and neither did DT. DT misunderstood Crazy and Kerrigan's case, but DarkLight never mentioned anything about that. He had no explanation for voting DT beyond what I said. My point stands.

First of all,

why are you so confident his vote was serious?

There was a picture accompanying his vote, in case you didn't notice... Also, changing your mind/admitting when you've made a mistake isn't the same as caring what people think of you, nor is it the same as caving in to outside influences...

What makes you think that DLA's votes have been without purpose?

Were they not serious? Then they were without purpose. You can't call me out on both sides of the argument. You don't even seem to understand your own case here.

Voting without reason nor case is actually an effective scumhunting technique when you're town.

Perhaps, but it's a lot more useful to scum to fish around for any possible bandwagon that forms than it is for town to try to catch someone with their pants down.

Why was this included in your analysis?

You did the exact same thing to me, stating that one of my points is good. I simply pointed out that DarkLight made exactly 1 good post in the entire game up to that point. You are being hypocritical for asking me that while having done it in the same post.

*waves red flag*

This was an attack on DT who was using his vote without backup as a means to scum hunt. This sounds awfully familiar as something you said was a good scum hunting tactic. Now you're waving a red flag when someone else is doing it?

You are full of double standards, contradictions, and lousy points. Your entire case against me seems to revolve around the fact that I make long posts that don't include what you feel is valid content. I'm actually thinking that a Nacho lynch is a decent one for today. If DarkLight flips scum, you're a very likely candidate for scum buddy.

[ICEninja]

Which points exactly?

He has been sort of scooting by without doing a lot of scum hunting, and has thrown his vote around a bit without a lot of substance. Other people pointed this out, and during my ISO of deer, I noticed where people saw that.

Nope, let's base our votes on 100% gut. Epic.

I'll spell out my thoughts on you in more detail next post.

To my knowledge I have been attacking DTMaster and he has defended himself, not the other way around. What's up?

I believe I meant to say Bio's points. He made a list of things he noticed you doing and voted you a while back, that is what I was referring to. I'll definitely look over the exchange between you and DT again though.

[ICEninja]

OK so here are some things that make you look scummy.

Here is a contradiction.

Voting without a real explanation is consistently a bad idea.

Voting without reason nor case is actually an effective scumhunting technique when you're town.

You're saying exactly opposite things here. I definitely don't like this.

ICE, however, is my favorite of RC's lynch choices. The reason I don't like him is a recent ISO on him; he is certainly a king of posting long posts without posting any content whatsoever.

This isn't a valid reason to vote someone. That's not a scum tell, and I've posted plenty of content.

You occasionally have points, but I don't agree with a whole lot of them

OK that means we have different opinions. I'm still looking for the part where I'm scummy. I would feel like you're doing your tactic of votes that you don't really mean for the sake of scum hunting, but you seem to really mean it.

I set out in the post without the intent to defend DLA; my original intent was to prove just how little you said in your pages of words.

look at that huge post defending him...

It doesn't matter what you intended, you defended DarkLight before he got a chance to respond to my attack directly. This alone is scummy.

Also to respond to a few of your other points:

My first points weren't good? Why not? Because they were attacking you for crappy reasoning?

Because you attacked points that weren't particularly important to my case. I'm letting them go.

Darklight voted XScorpion for starting a crappy bandwagon.

XScorpion didn't form an argument that others bought in to, he simply threw down a vote. Just because XScorpion was the first one with a vote down doesn't mean he actually started any bandwagon. Crazy and Kerrigan were the ones who were actually pushing the pwnman case. By that logic, shouldn't DarkLight have been suspicious of Crazy, who pushed the hardest? No, instead he claims that DT's attack on Crazy was weak, and in a sense defended Crazy.

Why did you point out DLA's good post?

I was mostly pointing out the fact that he's only put down a single good post the entire game. It was, in a way, damning with feint praise. It looks like a compliment that he's put down a good post, but by implication I call the rest of his posts empty or weak.

I was pointing out that there really wasn't a guarantee that it was serious, and I also pointed out that it might've had a purpose beyond what you could see.

There isn't really a point for either of us against the other here. It was a stupid vote with a picture that belonged perhaps in the RVS, but not while people were making genuine discussion. Maybe there was more to the vote than I saw, but that's for DarkLight to answer to, not for you to assume.

Also, the whole purpose of a pressure vote is not letting everyone know that it's a pressure vote. I believe I'd said something to that extent as well...

OK I'll concede this point, I misunderstood your point against DT.

You've done some fairly good scum hunting, but you're pushing pretty hard against me without really having much of a case. I can't find much that is scummy before your attack of me, but then again you hadn't posted a whole lot of content before that either. Your initial reason for voting me seems to be invalid now, if it wasn't before, unless you don't consider anything I post as content simply because you don't agree with my content. Unless you can show why the points we disagree on are scummy, then you don't have much of a case on me. Pushing so hard with so little this close to the deadline, yes, is scummy. You aren't as bad as DarkLight though. You're a tolerable lynch, definitely not the best.

[ICEninja]

I urge you to rethink your case on DLA, in any case: right now, he's a bad lynch. He's providing a bit more content than a lot of the other players, and I believe he's going to continue giving us this content.

I'm always willing to reevaluate my own opinions. You've shown me where my case is weak, but DarkLight hasn't done anything to alleviate my suspicions lately. If DarkLight wants me to unvote him, then he is going to have to show me some decent scum hunting without PRETENDING to scum hunt, and I'll need to evaluate my thoughts on Mindgamer and put that in to a coherent case like I said I would.

So besides me, who is a good lynch for you Nacho?

[ICEninja]

Hyperactivity or not, I know for a fact that Deer is active lurking in this game. I've seen him post in some of his other games while ignoring this one. If you're going to use that point against SK/dana, I'd expect you to hold Deer just as accountable.

Interesting. I'll have a look for myself. If it is proven that deer is indeed actively lurking, then that is a very large scum tell considering there's a bandwagon on him. He could very well just be hoping that it will go away once people like Mindgamer or DarkLight get a bigger wagon on themselves.

If he is indeed active lurking, then I will be fully supporting of a deer lynch today. Deadline is tomorrow, I believe.

[ICEninja]

Deer has posted 16 times NOT counting queue posts since his last post in this game as of me typing this. He has taken some very heavy fire, and has not responded. This is absolutely active lurking, and is absolutely scummy.

Unvote, vote Deer

You are at L-1. I suggest you claim.

[ICEninja]

Oh boy. Are we going to counter claim? If Deer is scum, is it worth it for the real doctor to counter claim and die for the scum kill?

If there is no counter claim, who are we most likely to lynch? I for one would not be comfortable continuing with lynching Deer without a counter claim, and would revert back to DarkLight as my main target, because I think a lot of Deer's scum tells are also doctor tells.

Also, this is my first dual mafia team game, and I'm unfamiliar with the dynamics that result from having multiple mafia teams. Could anyone give me a quick rundown about how things like this affect the game?

For now I'm going to

unvote

and give a few hours for any counter claim to show up before returning and making a decision here.

[ICEninja]

We are running out of time, and I still feel pretty good about a DarkLight lynch. Adding to everything I've said before, he hopped on the Deer bandwagon when it looked like it would save him despite the fact that Deer wasn't his favored lynch.

I really don't like Deer's active lurking, but as I mentioned, his scum tells could also be doctor tells.

Right now is a very good time for everyone to point out their favored lynch.

Vote DarkLight

[ICEninja]

In light of St. Patrick's Day, a 48 hour deadline extension has been granted (this is the standard 'one day for drinking, one day for hangover,' I believe). Make it count.

I missed this. We have a couple days to smooth things out. Everyone still needs to say who their preferred lynch is, however, with an explanation included.

[ICEninja]

ICE: what about Deer's play do you think are doctor tells? Flying under the radar? Deliberately playing scummy?

Active lurking, posting as little as possible, trying to get on a bandwagon without suspicion, doctors are similar to scum in that they need to get things done with as little attention as possible.

DarkLight you're coming off as pathetic and desperate. You saw that your best hope of not getting lynched just claimed doctor and you still want to see him lynched despite the claim. You definitely look the scummiest right now. You've been hiding behind Nacho the whole time I've attacked you, which suggests a possible connection, but I wont be targeting him until I gain more information. The funny thing about you still wanting to lynch Deer is the fact that you didn't even feel like Deer was the best lynch for today. So why are you trying to follow through with a wagon on someone who has a claim that makes sense?

There is going to be WIFOM in spades this night, so I am quite interested to see whats going to happen.

[ICEninja]

Seriously, if you don't notice this while it's in front of your nose, then I'm seriously doubting your abilities to notice scumtells. I suggest people start to read better.

Scum doesn't need to read the game nearly as closely as town does in order to win, so they generally don't. In my book, missing something significant like that is a scum tell.

Granted, it seems like dana also missed this. Earlier this week I didn't really feel like I had enough on dana to merit a vote. I'll take another look at him in ISO to see if there is anything against him besides the obvious that has been mentioned. Also we need to take a look at everyone who was on the Deer bandwagon prior to the claim. I'd say people who pushed this hard are more likely to be scum.

My vote will stand for now, but I'll definitely be revisiting things soon.

[ICEninja]

There are a few points about dana, because you're right those 5 minutes were quite short. For the most part his posts have been empty and meaningless, but then again there are a lot of players like that, who have had a lot more time to post things.

DarkLight has quite a lot of evidence against him, I'd say. There are just too many points, and Mindgamer actually did a very solid piece of scum hunting catching DarkLight in his statement that suggests that he has knowledge about Deer. I really just don't see anyone else having the same likelihood of flipping scum as DarkLight.

Sure, a lot of the stuff about DarkLight could be written off as stupid mistakes, but it gets to the point where you just can't ignore it anymore. There isn't a strong enough case on any other player. I simply don't think that anyone can dig up enough information based on what has happened during day 1 to really be able to build a stronger case than what we have on DarkLight, save something as damning as active lurking like what Deer did.

I'd say dana is an acceptable lynch, but only barely as there just isn't enough on him. I'm feeling a bit better about Mindgamer, as his scum hunting seems to be up a bit lately. I can't in good conscience lynch Deer today because of the claim. That leaves me with DarkLight, who I have a case against, and XScorpion, who has just been pathetic all game. If someone can show me a solid reason to vote XScorpion over DarkLight I'll consider it, but right now I just don't see one.

[ICEninja]

Speaking of XScorpion, I just noticed he's due for a prod.

Mod, could we get one of those?

[ICEninja]

I agree that that makes dana look bad, but you claiming to know that DLA is town doesn't make you look very good either.

Yes, this. This has really bothered me. I can't justify a lynch on Nacho for day 1, but I really think we need to look at him for future days for sure.

@Ice: What is your opinion of a Dana lynch?

I already stated it. It is a tolerable but not preferred lynch. The deadline is tomorrow so I'll be willing to switch my vote to dana to avoid a no lynch, but the case on him is essentially the same as the case against Deer without the active lurking. There isn't much about him, which isn't good, but isn't a lynchable offense either. The 5 minute ISO read is probably the only valid argument I see, as his vote hasn't bounced around more than some other players. He only votes twice, and both times he's voting for the scummiest looking player, so I'm not going to question that unless it becomes a trend.

Oh and Deer, if you're the doctor, then you at least have an obligation to us to help us catch some scum on day 1 before you get night killed. Don't just sit back end watch.

[ICEninja]

He doesn't give his opinions on other players, he doesn't make any comments about what he thinks is pro-town or scummy, he just does a quick read to justify a vote on the leading wagon and that's it. Do you honestly think he's more likely to be town because instead of voting for multiple players, he has focused on voting for the people with the most votes?

And this is why I'm alright with a dana lynch for today. It isn't as good as DarkLight, but I'm OK with switching if it prevents a no lynch. I'll hammer if needed.

[ICEninja]

No wonder I got night killed on day 1 by ice scum, I pegged both of them. Bummer that we lost though. I thought we had it for sure with 5 townies vs. 1 scum.