Open 209: The Invasion of Liten (Game Over)

[Furry]

who iz zee sucka?

I iz not a sucka hun

[Furry]

Well lets start this

(17) - What is the point of this survey? All I see is noise potential (also correct answers to 5-8 are yes, yes [in nearly all instances], no, no. There is no debating this. If everyone followed those, town would win far more games)

(43) - Someone understands baseless wagoning. That said it makes him probably town.

(53) - No seriously. This is a bad vote. I can come up with at least some justification to vote three or four people here, SPS is not one of those.

(61) - Scum or inability to understand usefullness of bandwagons? Interested to see how this develops as the game continues.
*Side note - Random wagons in the early stage are very good things. Too many newbies now adays completely fail to understand this.

(74) - Its obviously a joke. You even trying to make it not one is scummy.

(75) - I love you. Seriously. See people this is why you are supposed to wagon people.

(80) - Take back the 'I love you' for bringing up overdefensiveness. That is by far the worst tell that people use. I absolutely hate it when people try and say that its a scumtell. If you want me to get really deep into this I will, but for now I am sticking to calling it a tell against the accuser as opposed the the accused.

(100/102) - This is basically my thought process regarding (74) that I brought up before

(115) - Waiting for reasoning here, always love it when a scum read wants a town read dead.

(118) - What is the point of this question?

(124/128) - I still want an answer to why you asked (118). This isnt one.

Done with six pages

Crypto and Nico are scum. SPS is town, probably SFG and maybe Plundir.

Would be voting Crypto at this point but im not putting one down untill after I get done with my read.

[Furry]

Holy shucking fit. Horrible. I'll start flaming Furry tomorrow. You get a front row seat this time, Nicodemus.

*glee* I luv me a good fight. If my read of you holds I welcome it with open arms

@Furry, welcome to the game, sorry that you are currently reading me as scum. It would have been much easier on everyone if you noted who you were talking to in your quick readthrough, because I really don't feel like opening up a seventh MS tab to try and figure out what all of these posts were.

Actually I have you as probably town (as mentioned). Through six pages thats my second best town read. Will note who I am talking about in the future though, although most of the tells I brought up are on crypto and Nico. This also means the ones I havent been commenting on are null-neutral

One more thing that bugs me. You guys keep saying "x and y are scum" like there is no possibility that they aren't. This early in a game, how would you know? If you were saying "x and y are town" like that, I would call it a scumtell.

heh... something tells me you are going to think im scum then eventually in this game. I get much more volital about my town reads then my scum reads since they tend to be much better. Confidence is something that translates to support in cases though.

Will try and finish my read tonight

[Furry]

(Slaxx - 169) - Lots of words but no clear cut A>B suspicions. There is a distinct line between who he thinks is scum and who he doesnt think is scum, but that is as far as he goes. There is no A is scummier then B. Would like to see this fleshed out.

(Adul/Nik 171/174) - Finally we have people pushing for more direct content. This game has been all over the place for the most part and things need to start getting zeroed in

(crypto 180/181) - This policy? Also explain your read here. You seem to just wave your hand and expect us to get it. What other site meta are you looking for though.

(plundar 191) - What the basic case? I dont see this as anything but policy

(crypto 208) - Having a similar thought process is usually somewhat indiciative of similar alignment. Go back and look at your past games, people you agree with usually share an alignment.

few more things through page 10. No real changing reads right now. For people like sniper im from the thought path of lynch others first and connect them as scum or town from there, or just wait for them to get replaced ($20 says sniper is replaced by the end of the month at the latest.

[Furry]

(Plun 239) - The part regarding SFG seems off. He explicitly is called town, but it looks like he still wants a case on him to decide for sure.

(Max 267) - This isnt really an expanded case on anyone. A case is a more indepth post with quotes and reasoning. This is just a list of posts. Also you should always be voting.

(Max 269) - You are one of those very annoting people who flat out refuses to vote as long as possible arent you? There is zero justification to holding onto your vote, being afraid of a quicklynch doesnt count since you should be voting who you want dead at the current point in the game.

Max (283) - NO. The more you try and get ahead of yourself the more you trip yourself up. Speculating publicly about who partners are only will allow scum to make better moves.

Thats actually about caught up...

I would like to see a crypto, max or nico lynch today. Need to go back and read through them again before a case and vote.

[Furry]

Sniper is officially mega-newb-town

Everyone should unvote him now. Have a midterm tomorrow and quiz thursday so expect a case thursday night at the latest.

[Furry]

Sniper is officially mega-newb-town

Everyone should unvote him now

. Have a midterm tomorrow and quiz thursday so expect a case thursday night at the latest.

Mega Newb is a null read either way. Completely calling off a lynch and demanding all votes be taken off seems a little rash.

But... he is town

[Furry]

But, I'm not a newbie to mafia...that part he's wrong about.

Actually you are a newbie to mafia. Almost every other single site out there is not mafia, its close but its not real mafia. This is one of the best setups in existance because of the lack of PRs

@slaxx - Yes, it is a sure statement. He is town. Seriously.

[Furry]

By the way, when you commented on my clear cut A>B I couldn't help but notice your first post only listed two scum and neither one was A>B.

Right, because im catching up. When I have a case I will have A>B(>C) laid out.

[Furry]

@slaxx - Yes, it is a sure statement. He is town. Seriously.

Is this a gut read?

No, im a three shot day cop. He came up town. Max and Crypto came up scum. That means im just a VT now. Lets lynch one of them, will tell you which one of them later.

I am sad at the lack of huggles from Furry

Knew I was forgetting something hun.

*hugglez*

[Furry]

Sniper is officially mega-newb-town

Everyone should unvote him now. Have a midterm tomorrow and quiz thursday so expect a case thursday night at the latest.

That is incredibly drastic! I think you're letting Sniper slide too easily.

But... [Sniper] is town

@slaxx - Yes, it is a sure statement. He is town. Seriously.

Can't imagine how you could possibly be so sure he's Town. Even if you're scum he could be scum. Hmm.

I tend to do very with good town reads. Sniper is a town read here and im not going to let that go too easily.

I quick iso-ed Max and Crypto and barring a massive change of heart in the next 24 hours will be voting Max.

[Furry]

Vote Max

I'm glad you find my reads interesting. Why do you think crypto is scum?

ISO me and I refer to 2 posts, go to them and read them. You will find scum.

This is passive scumhunting. The case that normally will get pushed through is the one that is fleshed out with quotes so everyone knows exactly what is going on. I can live with "player X did A B and C" without quotes. But not "Look at X post". This is just looking like you are pushing lynches, not pushing them.

Do you want me to go get some more posts to lead you to? Because here's some (all are after my initial post for any before refer to my iso where I highlight my reasons):

Crypto: ISO 49, 47, 41 (Useless Filler, Meta-Obsessing, Meta Obsessing)
SFG ISO 23, 26, (obv. 21) and appears to be an activity whore.
Nicodemus hasn't actually posted much since my post but is on V/LA
SPS is all IIoA. I don't need quotes for that.

Also... I will vote when I'm ready to lynch I have a few people to hear more from before they are lynched.

Well... I guess its a start. He wants crypto lynched for active lurking and talking too much about meta (I dont think these are the stronger points against crypto actually). SFG is... well he still isnt explaining. Being active isnt bad though in 99% of games, although if done in the wrong way it encourages others to lurk.

Nico... is getting let off the hook for lurking? and SPS is IIoA, which I have to somewhat agree with since he is one of the biggest driving forces in actually getting stuff done.

FoS: Max, refusing to vote on day 1 is anti-town.

No, incorrect voting when you aren't willing to lynch someone is scummy. For example unless you are willing for at this very second nicomedus to be lynched you shouldn't be voting him.

lolno

Failure to vote takes away the most concrete type of evidence available to the town, especially in the late game. It forces people to take clear stands, and generates distinct reactions. I absolutely hate people who dont vote untill "they are sure".

To All

:

Q1

: Who do you believe is the partner of the player you are voting for?

Q2

: If the player you are voting is town would you consider their possible partner is clear?

This is a question just to gauge a few responses.

These are some of the WORST possible things that scum can know the answers to. It lets them know who they can pull down with them or who they just barely need to change interactions with to frame if they get lynched. It lets scum know what specific interactions people are looking for. So it not only lets scum know what they need to do in order to ensure mislynches, but also it lets them know what they need to do to NOT get tied to their partner.

will try and do more later

[Furry]

Hmm,

Slaxx, SFG, Pulindar, what do you think of what Sniper just did?

I know you didnt aske me *left out* but will answer anyways.

He is a VI. He is lynchbait. He is going to eventually be replaced. Unless its beyond obvious of connections to dead scum that he is scum. I will not vote him for being a VI

[Furry]

Hmm,

Slaxx, SFG, Pulindar, what do you think of what Sniper just did?

I know you didnt aske me *left out* but will answer anyways.

He is a VI. He is lynchbait. He is going to eventually be replaced. Unless its beyond obvious of connections to dead scum that he is scum. I will not vote him for being a VI

How are we to get him replaced? He doesn't seem to be lurking enough to be replaced for lack of activity. What does it take to get a player like that forcibly replaced.

Waiting for him to get bored and replace out. Its coming. Like I said, come april he wont be on the site

[Furry]

Well thats not a 'normal' game, it would be a theme and you need an open or normal ran before you can do a theme. I could help if you want it though whenever. I actually have ran five or six games on this site, im much older then my join date indicates.

Seriously though guys, we should lynch Max and not Sniper.

[Furry]

Furry, what do you think of Nicodemus/the bandwagon on him?

I would rather lynch Max or Crypto, but he is a pretty clear cut third since those are the only three reading scummy to me. If it came down to him or Sniper my choice should be pretty obvious.

[Furry]

I have no reads

For people on the go

[Furry]

@Furry: What do you think about Nikanor? Has the quality of his play or the read on him you have become better or worse after his increased activity? What did you think of him in your catch up post before you placed in?

It was Nico I was talking about lurking off IIRC as he did that after picking up flak early. Nika on the other hand is just a big null read to me. If I really wanted to it would be possible to argue him scum or town, there are tells that I like pointing both ways, which leaves him as neutral in the presence of other scum reads (max/crypto/nico) and town reads (SPS/SFG/Sniper).

I know im not really taking a strong stance here but there isnt one to be taken as far as I am concerned. I dont want him lynched if that is what you are looking for, but he isnt a town read.

[Furry]

If you want to emphasize your vote, you can just confirm it.

Confirm Vote: Nicodemus

is less confusing.

Also depending on how the mod deals with it (which I belive should be moving player to most recent voter), this can cause headaches looking at VCs late in the game.

If people are going to be refusing to vote for Max today, im more then happy to just lynch Nico who is now openly not doing anything

[Furry]

Furry: What's your opinion of LC?

Slight town if anything. I like the fact that he is willing to lynch Max and listening to me is, as we all know, a towntell.

These are some of the WORST possible things that scum can know the answers to. It lets them know who they can pull down with them or who they just barely need to change interactions with to frame if they get lynched. It lets scum know what specific interactions people are looking for. So it not only lets scum know what they need to do in order to ensure mislynches, but also it lets them know what they need to do to NOT get tied to their partner.

I'd disagree, if people believe they have found scum they believe they have found their partners. If they do not then they cannot believe they've found scum. They would believe they've found an SK, and as there is no SK then they must be bandwagoning for no evident reason.

What?

I dont know about many other people but I dont hunt for pairs this early (unless we were doing some lovers variant). Getting scum lynched usually points to a partner, scum can set up lynches when they die. I do that in every game im scum in, one of my top goals is to make sure my lynch points to town being scum with me. I dont understand this mindset really, and still belive that its going to just let scum know what to look for.

I provide evidence in the form of post references. You then go and read them and jump to the same conclusion that I did.

I did and I didnt see it, can you explain it to me?

If needed I will be moving my vote to Nico to stop a Sniper lynch

[Furry]

Okay, given that it seems unlikely Max will be lynched today and that I would prefer a Sniper lynch over a Nico lynch, I will

Unvote; Vote: Sniper

wrong wagon

unvote
Vote Nico

[Furry]

Furry, explain to me why Sniper is so obviously town?

Its more my theory on how to treat VI type players then anything else. There is no super concerte tells on him, most are just synonimous with people who have never played here before and are used to a different type of mafia.

Nico on the other hand is NOT a VI player. He is scummy on his own merits with legitmate tells, most people want him lynched but only as a secondary suspect (which is a behavioral scumtell actually). When you compare a VI lynch against a legitimate scumhunting lynch, the choice should be the legitimate one.

Sniper will likely replace out later on in this game, and he will have a better player to occupy the spot. Or, we will be able to figure out that he is probably scum given interactions between him and dead scum (or put him as town for same things).

Also gut.

[Furry]

Btw, I don't doubt either of you. This is a very pivotal moment in the game. In later days I'm sure people will come back to this and look for information, thats why I'm trying to milk it for all its worth. For all we know they're both scum.

Can you at least humor my reasoning with an unvote/revote? I feel so shunned

[Furry]

You're not shunned.

My vote stays where it is, though. For now.

A few of neutral reads aren't on a BW yet. I want to see which way they vote.

Well I ment unvote then put your vote back where it was... you know the whole false hope thing.

[Furry]

@Furry,

Why do you believe Sniper would replace out but Nico would not, given that Nico has said the game bores him while Sniper has not?

Ive played quite a few games, and he fits the bill of someone who will eventually replace out. You also are ignoring the fact that I think Nico is scummy, so even with a replace out I would still want him lynched over sniper.

[Furry]

OH HAHA. Sorry Furry.

Explain point 2, LC.

false hope is better then no hope

*hint hint*

[Furry]

Waiting on Dragonfly's analysis and vote.

I have my vote cocked towards Nico if everyone else in the town is ready.

Im ready!

In all seriousness though, I am ready. We should lynch him over sniper, tomorrow just take care of Max. Seriously.

@SFG - Being sick sucks, I had the H1N1 thing and there are three days of my life where I cant really remember what happened as a result. Get better

[Furry]

Well I know something that might bring it back to life *hint hint*

[Furry]

So you are saying we should include graphical evidence? If so this is what I submit

[Furry]

Furry, if Nic flips town, what do we do tomorrow with Max? You still think max is scum without Nico being scum?

Absolutely. I lean more likely otherscum since I dont think he would be defending Nico without at least putting pressure on sniper (infact I would bet Nico-scum has a partner on the sniper wagon).

Nico town you especially need to lynch Max-scum though, I seriously would reccomend quick lynching Max if Nico is town.

[Furry]

I seriously would reccomend quick lynching Max if Nico is town.

Weren't you advocating my lynch anyway?

Yeah, but he asked. Repetition makes people more likely to agree with it.

On another note, I don't see how Nico town links me to him when most people seemed to believe I'm his scumpartner?

Acutally as I said, Nico-scumA makes you less likely scumA then others given the massive inefficiency, yet blatantness of defending him going on. Doesnt detract in the least from you being scumB though if he is scumA, just means you wouldnt be my top scumA pick.

On a third note ^He's manipulating the town

Yeah, yeah I am. I do that quite a bit regardless of my alignment.

[Furry]

Nico town you especially need to lynch Max-scum though, I seriously would reccomend quick lynching Max if Nico is town.

Why? Why does the innocence of Nico prove conclusively that Max is scum, to the point where we should pass up all the information generated by a Day to give what we hope is not a mislynch? This is starting to make me seriously doubt you, Furry.

I see Max as scum to the point where I would be not having to wait for long to vig, RB, etc him. Now, Nico-scum is the only flip I really see that can detract heavily from Max-scum chances given the way that Max is going about trying to not have him lynched. So if Nico flips town, the biggest possible detractor from a Max wagon didnt really exist.

The "quicklynch" may be a bit of an overstatement, but if I get killed I want people to not be letting this go.

Yeah, but he asked. Repetition makes people more likely to agree with it.

Why are you using a logical fallacy to try and sway the town?

Yeah, I am a bit. This game is just as much about making sure your case gets noticed and listened to as much as it is getting correct reads. I know there are some games where people didnt listen to me and town got crushed, so I do whatever I view as the right move to get the moves that need to be done, get done.

Im a manipulative little bugger, always have been and always will be. Not going to deny that I will occasionally try and use fallacies, wording and other general trickery to gain votes for my cause.

[Furry]

What would you have said if I had voted sniper?

Then you can easily be scum with Nico. Look at it this way -

Nico scum only can really be saved by a sniper lynch, there isnt enough time for another counterwagon. That means the best spot for a partner to Nico to look would be said sniper wagon.

You are not voting for Nico, but your vote is doing absolutely nothing to stop Nico from being lynched. I think at this point a partner to Nico is either going to be bussing him or trying to save him, you are detaching yourself from his lynch without trying to save him, which is absolutely the worst thing for a partner for him to do. It is (depending on players outlook) scummy, and will just get your partner lynched. This has since been rectified but my point still stands.

Because of that, I dont think any active players voting "other" could be a Nico-partner. I would say a Nico-partner is on the tail end of his wagon, or on the sniper wagon.

[Furry]

I think at this point a partner to Nico is either going to be bussing him or trying to save him

Ok, there are two possible things that can happen. 1. Nico can be lynched or 2. Nico can not be lynched. OF COURSE ONE OF THESE TWO OPTIONS IS GOING TO HAPPEN. You, good sir, are an idiot.

I should apparently rephrase that to "trying to save him through a sniper wagon" as there are quite a few other ways of getting a partner out of a tough spot. In this case there just isnt enough time to pull off anything else then a sniper lynch to stop a Nico one. The people who dont belive in a Nico lynch yet arent voting sniper dont fit the bill of partner to Nico-scum

[Furry]

Because of that, I dont think any active players voting "other" could be a Nico-partner. I would say a Nico-partner is on the tail end of his wagon, or on the sniper wagon.

Right, so until I voted Nico I wasn't his partner?

You still arent due to timing. I would guess a nico partner is one of [Haylen/LC/Slaxx/SFG] with most likely LC actually.

I get a distinct feeling that im failing to explain my thought process well

[Furry]

I get a distinct feeling that im failing to explain my thought process well

This. I can't tell where you got your conclusions from and your most recent post doesn't add up with what you were saying before either, so I am very very confused.

What parts dont seem to add up? Interested so I can actually get my point accross here.

Hey guys, what up, not much to say, just popping in to

Vote: Sniper

[Furry]

I don't know what Furry is trying to say about Max not being Nicodemus's partner. He said that Nico's partner is likely to be on the tail end of his wagon (take note, that's where Max is right now) or on Sniper's wagon.

Max wasnt all for a Nico wagon for a while yet didnt try and push a lynch on someone else who could be lynched. This non-partner tell outweighs the position on a wagon tell. If Nico is scum I would say LC is his partner.

[Furry]

Can I hammer Nic yet town?

I know we're waiting on dragonfly....but this thread is dying.

I would prefer you just unvote so that if DF votes sniper it doesnt lynch him, but you dont end the day before he gets to post.

[Furry]

Vote Max

Apparently my top pick for a partner of him has busted, but my case against him still is valid.

[Furry]

Will people kindly remember that now we have three people who have died, all townsfolk, and that just yesterday you were all in desperate need of flip information which you now have? You might as well use it instead of saying "well the new information busts my previous theory so I'm going to continue to vote for the person I thought was suspicious even though the theory got busted."

I was saying that A) Max is scum and B) if A is true then LC is most likely his partner.

Just because B has been shown as not true does not chance the odds of A being not true. If you wanted me to speculate on kills; Max is from the scumgroup that killed LC in an attempt to indirectly detract from him being scum. I like my original case more then that speculation though however.

[Furry]

@Furry: What do you think of Sniper's 'Self-hammer' and unvote? Have you read what I've said on the subject?

Already said this, that was a stupid move, but it was a blatantly newbie town move. I also said, and appear to be correct, that he is replacing out of this game. My reads on newbie players are usually very accurate, in this game, Sniper is town.

Also if you want more information that Max is scum, on his OWN speculation, you can say that LC dying means Max killed him. He specifically said that he would of killed me (WIFOM) because I wanted him lynched. LC also wanted him lynched though, and shockingly got killed. Weak I know, but if he is going to defend himself on WIFOM, I can use the exact same thing to show him as scum. This can also include that I specifically said to lynch Max if I died, but im just going to stick with the more "concrete" WIFOM.

[Furry]

Who do you think the scum are, Furry? I want four names from you.

Max with... Haylen I think, there are a few who work here

and two of

[Adul/nik/slaxx]

At this point im most sure of Max-scum, SPS-town and Sniper-town, I like deconstructive reasoning most. Given the dissent on my town reads I believe a Max lynch and subsequent NKs, would narrow this down quickly enough. I realize this leaves out Plundir and SFG, who are both between the threesome and town reads.

[Furry]

Why do you think SPS is town?

You do realize burden of proof is more on you then me here right?

He is making sense. His reads and cases are easy to follow and I agree with a majority of them. He has been pushing action when there is no point for scum to be pushing action. Why do you think he is NOT town?

[Furry]

You do realize burden of proof is more on you then me here right?

No it isn't.
Scum sometimes give out town reads for weak reasons to buddy up to another person. I'm not sure how much other people do that, but I do it all the time as scum. That's why I'm asking you.

Nah, burden of proof is on the attacker. Anyways, I have very accurate town reads for the most part, even though im out of practice at playing as town.

@Adul - Its more of a gut/PoE mix. Im confident in my town reads, and I have a few others I lean town. By no streach am I advocating a lynch of one of you three, but someone asked for names and thats what I have.

[Furry]

Because he is the guy who posted last...I know...not the best reason...but I don't have much else to go on.

To catch you up I already claimed cop and have a guilty on Max, we are lynching him now

[Furry]

Now really read the game please

[Furry]

Also if you want more information that Max is scum, on his OWN speculation, you can say that LC dying means Max killed him. He specifically said that he would of killed me (WIFOM) because I wanted him lynched. LC also wanted him lynched though, and shockingly got killed. Weak I know, but if he is going to defend himself on WIFOM, I can use the exact same thing to show him as scum. This can also include that I specifically said to lynch Max if I died, but im just going to stick with the more "concrete" WIFOM.

Did you see what I said, anybody competent could go for an LC lynch. I'm a competent mafia player, read games I've played if you want. I win as scum, because I know who to target. I would have probably killed you as you are the only one making a case against me. Everyone else is just "wtf".
Also, does anyone really pay attention to dying wishes, tomorrow people aren't going to vote to lynch the people I say. Night Kill victims are being paid attention to more than normal. And mafia need someone to lynch at day right, so they kill people who are playing well, k? Once you've got that idea we can move on.

I saw what you said and its a WIFOMy way to try and clear yourself claiming "I would of done something else". Depending on the town, killing me could easily of resulted in the extra push needed to cause your lynch. Lets also not forget LC who showed some interest in your lynch DID die. This is basically a null arguement from me in a response to a null defense from you, attempting to show you that it means nothing except an attempt to get something going for you being town.

Yeah, I am a bit. This game is just as much about making sure your case gets noticed and listened to as much as it is getting correct reads. I know there are some games where people didnt listen to me and town got crushed, so I do whatever I view as the right move to get the moves that need to be done, get done.

Right, so straight from the furballs mouth. He's not saying the right moves to get the scum lynched. He's saying he'll do the right move to get the moves "that need to be done, get done". Eh?
Is it just me or is that like when people say: "I'll do anything I can to win" in regards to a lynch, it's not lying but it's disassociation from alignment claims.

Saying "anything that needs to be done so town which I am" would be better then from now on? No need for redundancies when they are not needed.

Yeah, yeah I am. I do that quite a bit regardless of my alignment.

Again, sweeping statements that are disassociation from alignment.

Surely you'd say "I do that as town"

Yeah, I do that as town and I do that as scum. It has led to a whole lot of success as both factions.

Slight town if anything. I like the fact that he is willing to lynch Max and listening to me is, as we all know, a towntell.

contradicted by

I was saying that A) Max is scum and B) if A is true then LC is most likely his partner.

You never said anything negative about LC, at all. I think that this is somewhat of a scum-ploy. "Admitting to Error",

I actually dont know what I was really saying there since it should of been "If Nico is scum LC is his partner". I think I just had a few wires get crossed in my suspicions here since you can see all through late D1 I had Nico-LC as scum together then Max-? as other scum. Put a wrong name down and ran with it.

Acutally as I said, Nico-scumA makes you less likely scumA then others given the massive inefficiency, yet blatantness of defending him going on.

You accuse me of poor scum-hunting yet I've yet to be proven wrong about any of my candidates (well, crypto, but once I got used to him he warmed).

This is me saying I dont think you are partners with Nico... where are you getting that defense-attack?

I also dont really disagree with too many of your suspicions, and scum does have to scumhunt in this setup. I have been in a 8:2:2 open as scum and caught more other scum then town did. What point are you trying to make here?

Right, because im catching up. When I have a case I will have A>B(>C) laid out.

And you say this. Which never came really it was I want these two lynched and I want this other player alive.

Well I did come out with: I want max lynched, if not him crypto or Nico. I also have come out with: I want Sniper and SPS alive

[Furry]

The NK speculation is getting us nowhere, like I've said. Furry called it null in 831, but apparently he thinks there's something to it. Is anyone basing their vote primarily on NK speculation? I don't think so. Has it really told us anything? No.

Max is trying to use NKs to say he is town, im just showing that they can just as well be used to show he is scum. I agree that it is a null tell, but him trying to use them as a town tell for himself IS a scumtell.

[Furry]

I saw what you said and its a WIFOMy way to try and clear yourself claiming "I would of done something else". Depending on the town, killing me could easily of resulted in the extra push needed to cause your lynch. Lets also not forget LC who showed some interest in your lynch DID die. This is basically a null arguement from me in a response to a null defense from you, attempting to show you that it means nothing except an attempt to get something going for you being town.

I repeat, LordChronos could have been lynched. Read him in ISO and you could easily make a case against him, why bother nightkilling when you can lynch him?

I cant believe im still arguing a point to try and prove a defense is null.... but.

LC was my main backer in the Max-lynch case. During mid-late day one, Max wagon, Sniper wagon and Nico wagon were the only things with any real backing, and the Max wagon backing was small. Killing the secondary support to the Max wagon cuts its reincarnation strength for day two, leaving Sniper wagon as the one most people will revert to in theory.

Saying "anything that needs to be done so town which I am" would be better then from now on? No need for redundancies when they are not needed.

I'm sure there was something looking into this a while ago, but in general people who refer to their townliness in posts (not the way sniper does, that's more of a claim) are townie. I can't remember when that was done I'll try and find it, alone it's not strong but combined with your general scummy play it can be added.

I still disagree with this, and actually see people constantly calling themselves town as a slight scum tell. its mostly theory though.

Yeah, I do that as town and I do that as scum. It has led to a whole lot of success as both factions.

Again, not reassuring on a town perspective. You manipulate the town into doing what you want them to do. I just don't like this "so what" attitude. It's almost treating it as a none issue, manipulating the town is inherently anti-town.

Its not anti-town if you pull it off right. The best manipulation is when you lead someone to a conclusion you wanted them to come to while they think they did it yourself. Admittedly mine hasnt been that clean this game, but im always going to keep steering people back to where I want them to go.

Well I did come out with: I want max lynched, if not him crypto or Nico. I also have come out with: I want Sniper and SPS alive

That isn't A>B>C case that's:
A>B=C>D=E

Well A>>B=C>>D=E, but yeah. My first pick was far and away while my second two were on such similar ground that which was more readily obtainable at deadline was an easy tiebreaker.

[Furry]

Furry, you're a piss-poor manipulator if you think telling people that you like to manipulate them will allow you to manipulate them.

Just makes me need to be all the more tricksy.

At this point im just more trying to drive a point home then anything else. Regardless of who gets lynched with three significant wagons im loving the ammount of information that stands to be gathered.

[Furry]

Furry, regardless of your read on Sniper, would you like to see him forcibly replaced or not?

I would be fine with him being force replaced, although I still think he will just flake eventually.

[Furry]

Furry, what do you have to say about the fact that despite being completely wrong about Nico and crypto, you are still pushing Max?

Being wrong on some reads is not going to make me completely turn around a different read.

What is with the turnaournd either way (and the reasoning for it so I can respond to something)? 20 posts ago your read on at least me was different.

[Furry]

That really is not something I can defend against still...

[Furry]

Furry if it makes you feel any better, you are last of the scum reads I would like to lynch because my reads are significantly stronger on Ald and Nik, followed by SPS, followed by you

*glee*?

[Furry]

Geez, don't you guys ever get shaken up when you realize your reads have been wrong? :/

I have had a few "wait no im completely wrong" reactions, but those actually occur more in the middle of the day then anything else. This isnt one of those scenarios though, and im still comfortable with my read.

[Furry]

Games gone plaid...

Will get caught up soon as I can, but this is the start of two really busy weeks for me. Posting regular shouldnt be an issue but massive posts may be.

[Furry]

Still trying to get caught up fully and im a little tired, but the whole roundabout between SPS-SFG doesnt make much sense to me. This may be due to a strong and weak town read on the two of them respectively, but it seems to go around in circles and be more distracting then anything else.

Also if we are talking theory, if we lynch scum, other scum should be taking a shot at their partner. It would eliminate all night threats to the scum.

[Furry]

(Although Sniper and Furry probably have different alignments.)

Can you explain this a bit more?

[Furry]

That's a mistake. I meant to say that Sniper and you probably weren't scumbuddies. I was talking about two of Sniper, Nikanor, and you being scum in a hypothetical situation prior to that, that's most likely why I screwed up.

You also said it earlier though

Regarding Furry's gut read on Sniper: a null tell as far as I'm concerned, as I can't tell whether he's genuine. Does suggest to me that they have different alignments.

I just recently have had a massive paranoia wave over a you-Sniper scumteam since 'different alignment' can only be guarenteed by you being scum with Sniper. You seem to just overlook both of us being town when some of your play suggests that its your read.

Ayways

@Plundir, Adul, SFG - Current thoughts on a sniper wagon?

[Furry]

So deadline is in 24 hours and its a Max/Haylen/Sniper tie vote?

I have done my outlining of why Max is scum. I still think Sniper is town (only way I see him scum is with SPS who I also think is town so im discounting that). Haylen I guess is informative, but its still not an ideal lynch.

We really need a replacement to get in here and a deadline extension now.

NK analysis is also a bad idea. No one knows reasoning behind scum kills, so it usually will lead people into some anchoring heuristic stuff which is ugly.

[Furry]

I'm doing my best to find a replacement for myself. The deadline extension and Max's replacement issue I will let SaintKerrigan deal with, it's not something I feel I have the authority for.

Lots of Love,
Hayl xxx

Wrong account hun, using different skins for different accounts works best.

Also you are in charge of this game right now, you have full athority to grant extensions

Thanks! Trouble is the default colour and tigers kill my eyes due to the contrast. ~ Hayl

[Furry]

I still think Sniper is town (only way I see him scum is with SPS who I also think is town so im discounting that).

Why does Sniper have to be paired with SPS?

That whole "could be a slip but probably isnt" thing with SPS that suggests sniper-SPS pairing. This goes against all gut and logic for me though at this point so im not really persuing it too much. Was simply something worth noting.

Actually the people calling for Nik-SPS pairing and voting Nik are pinging gut a bit as well, since for most of the game quite a few people have been saying SPS is scummy, while not many have had problems with Nik. Now that a possible pairing exists, it just surprising to me. While im actually pleased with this since neutralish read beats town read in being lynched, its just confusing.

My vote isnt moving unless it stops SPS/Sniper from being lynched

[Furry]

So why do you think sniper is town? And do you think that he is a useful asset to the town?

He is town mostly because of the collective approach to him from the town. Almost everyone is happy to lynch him, but keeps putting him off or saying "scum with X". These are common approaches to scum who have identified someone who they are going to be able to mislynch, but can manipulate for the time being so they are not willing to get rid of. I guarentee you that most of the scum if not all are in the "scummy but lets lynch X" boat, and would hazard a guess that from the D1 wagon there are more that were voting Nico then sniper for this very reason.

But yeah he isnt useful, he just needs to latch onto town and mirror their votes however to be sorta useful.

I would put a large wagon on Sniper-town here. I just dont see him being scum except with SPS on a paranoia/possible slip thing. So yeah, Sniper town.

[Furry]

This mentality from you seems to completely fail to account for the fact that 1. there were people (myself included) DRIVING a wagon of him yesterday when you still firmly believed he was town

Day one was a whole lot of gut read, what has happened since then backs up the read.

2. there are people...a MAJORITY of people, even...putting off lynching him today who are town. Because today is pseudo-lylo and we don't want to make a mistake.

Thats kind of what I was arguing. People are for the most part accepting of the lynch but no one is willing to pull the trigger.

[Furry]

@Slaxx and SFG - Sniper or Max lynch? It looks like you are going to be the deciders here.

[Furry]

There isnt anything really left to say, its Max or Nik, I think everyone but the replacement has decided.

[Furry]

I'm a bit unsettled by the fact that Nikanor is lurking even when (s)he's up for a lynch.

*bing bing bing*

Yep, no way scum is going to be lurking when its only going to guarentee they get lynched. Another nice little reason for someone to jump wagons.

Search function shows he is lurking too, not just unable to post.

[Furry]

It's deadline tonight and I haven't heard from Haylen whether I'm meant to be finding a replacement or she is. It's okay though because the night will run to Midnight Monday I'm only missing 6 days, considering the pace of the game I'll be able to catch up with ease.

Lynch SPS, Furry, Ald and A Nother

.

Hey guys, check it out, four suspects. Max knows Nik is town, can we lynch max now?

[Furry]

Im quite lost at this point with Max-town and Nik-scum. Need to get re-acclimated

[Furry]

Well im going to go against the popular opinion and say that I think Pulindar is Niks partner.

Even though people are saying Sniper, I doubt it. Look at how Nik was treating him near the end of the day yesterday. He was calling him scum but on horrible reasoning. In that type of a distancing situation you need to be putting something worthwhile down because if you arent, creating bad cases is going to aid your wagon.

Second most likely would be SPS, but I dont think it works as well as Pulidar mostly because town-SPS (or even other scum SPS) would be on the Max wagon over the Nik one. It fit everything he had been saying the entire game. If its SPS-Nik it just happened to be perfect wagons. I again doubt this.

So like I said, Pulidar works better. Near the end of the day we have things like

That's all scummish behavior in my book, but later he's gotten better, and moved more in line with town behavior. I could condone a lynch of max (only if sniper is not the choice) but I won't get on the wagon.

Max is the one who will die as of this point. I can accept that, though I'm not convinced in any way that he's scum, I realize that no matter what he will be a distraction if this game gets to LyLo

There is a lot of subtle pushing of the Max wagon, although he has set himself up in a position where he can not hop the Max wagon too easily due to past comments, and that the person he is tunneling on happens to be Sniper, who is voting Max.

When you add in this (in hindsight mistake) post

I won't vote Haylen, and I feel the same way about Nik as I do about Max. That's just my viewpoint.

He is stuck.

If he goes with the Max wagon, the tie becomes more noticeable since it doesnt quite fit what he has been talking about for the whole time. So he choses to sit for one more key reason (which I have already quoted).

Max is the one who will die as of this point.

At this point NIK IS SAFE. There is no reason for him to jump wagons. If nik ever died, he would not have been on the competing wagon and people like Sniper and SPS are going to take the heat, just like is happening right now. It was a calculated risk to stay where he was, and it just didnt manage to pay off.

As the game went on, you can see him becoming increasingly less interested in Nik as well. For quite a bit of day one there was banter between the two, as Nik got wagoned up though, that dropped away rapidly.

On top of all that, he is now calling for a lynch of scum B, when a lynch of scum A is going to put him right in the crosshairs of the town. He says its due to chances of scum cross killing, but in this situation a lynch of scum B will result in both scum shooting for town, probably hitting, and we are still in basically lylo for the rest of the game. It can even create a very worst case scenario in such that we lose three more town, almost making it unwinable.

Vote Pulindar

Go back and read what happened yesterday, he is Niks partner.

[Furry]

1. I explained the logic of going for scum B today already. Regardless of which scum we lynch today, we are at mylo or lylo. I doubt we will se a xkill at all in this game but we have better odds overall if we lynch B today.

We lynch A we end up with a game where its up to us to get the right lynches to win. If we lynch B, its a similar game, but I just dont like having two kills a night going on. I can see the merits of lynching B, but messing it up is disasterous. I think we have a better chance of correctly lynching A then lynching B.

2. If you don't like my explanation of the nk, I would love to hear what you propose. I don't think these so easily in a game with both mylo/lylo and previous nk analysis and it's still possible the Arkons chose not to kill to try and frame Sniper th VI. I don't yet feel confident that I have A pinned down but since we now are free to lynch B this is in many ways preferable. I have not yet determined which lvl of WIFOM the kill/nokill were on. At either rate the extra townie is a gift we may not afford to loose.

My first thought was both scum killed Max. He was pretty obviously not Nico partner, and it works as a decent frame job against me and SPS. I never considered someone missed an action untill it was brought up.

Actually hah. I think I can prove that the kill was not missed, at most someone no killed, but that is amazingly foolish outside of mylo or any other scenario where they can kill on a mislynch with their next kill. Night did not last for the entire time it was set to last for, which means all actions were recieved, no mod would assume someone isnt going to get an action in on time. So everything was recieved I think

Since I am right about Nico, Max, and Nika so far, maybe you trust my read now instead of bullying your incorrect reads?

Ouch...

Im not just going to give up all my reads because I have been wrong.

[Furry]

My first thought was both scum killed Max. He was pretty obviously not Nico partner, and it works as a decent frame job against me and SPS. I never considered someone missed an action untill it was brought up. (etc)

I would like to hear your theory, then, as to why both groups would be targeting him? Feel free to post any and every explanation you can think of for the night kills because ONE theory is bound to be correct.

For scumgroup A - They know that Max isnt going to be lynched in a hunt for scumgroup A. Removing Max removes a player who will always be lynched after them if the town goes down a list of "Who is Niks partner".

For scumgroup B - If the town decides to go for scum A, they also will fall into the above category. On top of that getting rid of Max puts pressure on people he was suspicious of, and those who were suspicious of him. This mainly is myself and SPS who had avidly been pro-Max anti-Nik wagoners for yesterday. Leaving Max alone, while adding pressure to the two of us, did not do nearly as much damage to ourselves given that he could of still been B. By scum B eliminating Max from scum B pool, it just makes the Max wagon yesterday look scummier.

That is why I think that he could very easily of been double killed. Group A was looking to keep as many people ahead of them on the "hunt for A" list as possible, and Max was almost dead last there. Group B had that, as well as the ability to apply quite a bit of pressure to the Max wagon.

I know it is WIFOM, but that occuring makes me think that B is more likely on the Nik wagon then off it, as getting rid of Max snaps attention to the scumminess of the Max wagon, instead of leaving him as possible B

[Furry]

Nah i need Deathnote's opinions and actually Al's opinions before I go any further.

Oh and as a heads up finals week is in like 3 weeks, so i might disappear off the face of the Earth that week.

I second both of these things

@mod

- Prods on DN and Ald up yet?

[Furry]

Was gonna post but my browser froze and it's gone...

Ive gotten in a habit of copying everything before I post. Its saved me a few times and is now second nature

[Furry]

He had two motivations to kill Max: 1. he thought Max was scum 2. he was Max's prime suspect. That alone, I could put down to WIFOM with the kills, but Furry also had reason to kill crypto, because he thought crypto was scum, and furthermore nearly the entire town agreed that scum should be focusing on the xkills and I think even moreso that is the case because I am still alive, who have been lauded by pretty much the entire town for both my towniness and my proficiency at finding scum. It's a crazy scum pair who tries to WIFOM right now and honestly if they did, they've both half-jinxed themselves and if they pull a victory, they deserve to win.

A lot of this is actually almost my exact opposite thinking of what scum is supposed to do. Ive been scum in a 8:2:2 open (just like this with one less VT) and went for obvious town kill first night, and zeroing in on other group kill second night. For cross kills, scum actually want to avoid them unless it will finish off the other team, or they are going to be crippled if they miss one.

But going beyond both nightkills, again who was it who chose, pulled, wheedled, and rallied a D1 wagon from the deadweight that has been savaging the town, and frequently become a grave liability for us - not to mention the fact that if Sniper is both town and survives until lylo, the town is DOOMED because he will just vote someone without thinking and the quickhammer will end everything there - to a townie who had been demotivated and could just as easily have been remotivated a day later?

I did that one intentionally, and would have done it again. Im almost positive sniper is town here, so there is no way I was going to let him get lynched over someone who was actually scummy. You are using this attack with the hindsight of knowing that Nico was town, which during the first day, no one knew.

Oh yeah that's right, it was FURRY. How has he gotten away with this for so long? Finally, he has been frequently using fallacious arguments and passing them off as "town meta as well as scum." Ain't that just the cherry on top?

I can point you to town meta games, but I dont have any non-ongoing town games in a very long time (I think it seriously might be way back in 09). It may be part of why im a little out of shape for playing as town. Even that one similar game I was talking about I was the one who managed to take down the first member of the second group, and had the second one called right when I got NKed.

[Furry]

Furry, Sniper being town or not doesn't matter. Nico had a chance to shape up and said as much. Sniper's only "chance" was to either flake out and deny us of however-long of reads before doing so. Instead, he is in here and a liability to town, as well as an imminent danger for a town that is almost inevitably in lylo (a fact you seem to continuously deny despite the fact that I have spelled it out for you and everyone else repeatedly, as have SPS, Nikanor, and Slaxx.) I would LOVE for you to explain the logic behind leaving someone alive who puts the town in mortal peril.

Sniper being town was everything! There is no way that im going to lynch someone who I think is town, even if at the same time they arent the most valueable town member. Im not going to even start to argue that he isnt a liability, but what I am going to continue to push is that he is town, lynching town is going to be worse then either winning the game before lylo, or having him in lylo.

Also if you are arguing my theory fits the kill, im guessing you think im scum with Nik? It was pretty obvious that Max-Nik wasnt the pairing, so a scum kill from me would have been quite different.

[Furry]

No, Furry, I do not think you are scum with Nikanor. I think Sniper is scum with Nik and you are scum with either SPS or Slaxx, leaning Slaxx. If you are scum with Nik, you have almost zero explanation for one death last night, because it would have meant that the whole other scumpair is either intellectually challenged or also thought that Max needed to die that night, which is unlikely for reasons I am currently failing to figure out how to put into text.

I already laid out probable cause for each group to kill Max. If I was scum not with Nik there is no way I would have let my group kill Max since that kill was far more valueable to a Nik-partner group unless all of the other group is in [SPS/sniper/pul].

Other group should have been getting rid of townie who pushed Nik lynch. If that was my group there is no way death wouldnt have been one of [slaxx/sfg] outside of them being my partner.

That aside, I am confident that the remaining three scum are among Furry, SPS, Slaxx, and Sniper. I feel strongly that part of the reason Furry left Sniper alive is because he KNEW that at least one person would fall into the trap that Puli did and then be able to push a lynch on them.

Im almost proud that you think I am capable of doing something like that as scum, but Sniper would be left alive to create direct ties to him and to leave a wildcard people are afraid to let keep living instead of 'lynch anyone who pushes that wagon'.

Sniper is town though, that much I am still sure of.

[Furry]

Furry, is there some particular reason that your wiki doesn't have a listing of games you are in, and could you please provide said list for me? I want meta from at least three town and two scum games if possible.

Three town games wont happen unless you want me pointing to a game where I joined right before deadline, got a third of the game read then NKed. I wasnt kidding about rarely getting town.

~Town~
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11788
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11484

~Scum~
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12846
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12433
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11276 (this was the similar setup game)

[Furry]

Flurry... meta holds no bar on me. If you posted those games to prove something about how you always post like that, then I could really care less.

Who is this "flurry?"

Anyways, SFG asked so I showed.

[Furry]

I can get behind a DN/haylen lynch and probably will sometime soon (soon being late this week, unless I get an itchy finger). I just want to get a little bit more of a handle of the rest of the game first. Pul still is the partner of Nik, but I want to get more keyed in on group B.

[Furry]

Okay, well I decided that Furry was town based on a secondary NK analysis

*glee*

Ive been doing some searching for who works with Haylen-DN, but I cant really come up with anyone but SPS as a partner and that really doesnt make much sense.

Sniper was attacked by Haylen, Adul and Slaxx started a Haylen wagon yesterday. SFG has been in conflict enough to make me doubt that pairing, even though SFG-scum is basically not happening regardless. Leaves SPS and Pul, I think Pul is scum A, I guess I could see SPS-scum as a reason for me to be alive, but its going against my read to put him there.

I need to do some more tinkering. If DN-Haylen is scum something is wrong in my book of reads.

[Furry]

If DN-Haylen is scum something is wrong in my book of reads.

Just like...everything else? I'm sorry, I read this and laughed for like 3min at the irony.

heh, thanks for the self-confidence booster

Furry, could you remind why you think Puli is scum A specifically? 'Cause DN-Puli looks like a realistic scum pairing to me.

Its a few pages back. If you want it quoted I will

[Furry]

sorry, I'll try not to let this go to my head too much *hugs Furry*

*hugglez*

CST is.... -6GMT? Im PST and thats -8

[Furry]

Pulindar's lack of vote and lack of reads doesn't worry anyone but me?

Nah, see here hun. He is Niks partner, so all we really have to do is point him out to scum B and they kill him for us at night to give themselves the advantage.

Its more of trying to unravel the scum B pairing, which logically says DN-Haylen, but a partner to that isnt easy to pick out. SPS works if you push it (and may explain my living), Pul works, but I still think he is A.

Im probably going to vote DN soon here just because its time to move forward, and this makes the most sense on the surface, I would like to have more stuff figured out first though. Deadline isnt for a few days, so im not going to vote untill tomorrow.

[Furry]

Sniper or Pulindar is/was scum with Nikanor.

strongly agree

Deathnote is part of mafia B.

agree

Deathnote is not Nikanor's partner.

strongly agree

Pulidar is part of mafia B.

(if not A) slightly agree

It is possible for Pulindar and Deathnote to be partners.

(if not A) agree

Given this chain of questions, are you thining what im thinking?

@SFG - If you arent going to vote untill the weekend remember deadline.
@DN - I know you can do stuff when you want to. Why arent you even trying in this game?

[Furry]

@Pul - You want to know why im kind of tunneling at this point? Its because absolutely nothing is making sense to me right now. I dont think the case on Sniper is good enough to merit a lynch, if scum B thinks he is partners to Nik they can kill him. If one of the few other people that can work with him flip A, then yes, im more OK with that lynch. In a situation where its hard to tell if someone is a VI or scum being an idiot, im going to side with the VI every time. Its how I have learned to play, as when they are VI, it puts extreme pressure on scum to have the non-threat scumhunting wise getting put in town collumn.

SFG is town or should be nommed for something after this, I think thats about all that can be said at this point in the game.

You work as a partner to Nik, almost purely for the fact that you were not a part of that wagon. Yes I fully conced that I also work for that reason, but I see no way the partner to Nik is NOT in one of the players voting not-nik, which is [you/me/SPS/Sniper]. I dont think its going to be Sniper here since scum A had all the reason in the world for killing Max. I have a slight town read on SPS so it partial process of eliminating which is likely causing myself to oversell this read in order to keep myself sane here.

Now we have to get started on the entire scum B debate and I get three directions immeditaely.

1) Scum B killed Max. This is the one that is REALLY bugging me. The only good reason for scum B to be killing Max is to put pressure on the above quad, which actually now that I am remembering again makes me recend my comment of you being possible B. The fact that Max got killed by A actually makes the four of the Max voters very unlikely A. I would say there is a high chance that BOTH scum B are in [Slaxx/Adul/DN], confirming Max as town makes town who decides to go for A ignore these three players, there is your motivation right there.

2) No one is against the DN lynch. Either he is getting bussed fairly hard or is town. I have actually seen scum-DN play and he was very competent (also DN is an alt isnt he?... seems like we all are). He actually falls apart more as town from looking through old games. I think im going with some groupthink stuff here and forcing myself to buy into something, where if its true nothing else makes serious sense. It means there was a suboptimal kill somewhere along the line, most likely from SPS.

3) Gut. I actually have been very suspicious of Adul and Slaxx for a very long time, but just havent looked into it too hard given that there have been other things getting in the way. Im going to see what I can do between the two of them over the next day or so.

4) Paranoia even is kicking in over SPS-Sniper existing as scum. My policy on Sniper says we probably should not be lynching him. My read on SPS says the same, however I really cant see any solid DN pairing without one of them, or any Nik pairing without one of them if puli isnt there. I usually am a very early death in games, so when im not dying, I tend to think something is wrong, especially when there is lack of PRs.

So... yeah, im confused. Its been a very long time since I have felt this lost this late in a game. Hell...

unvote

Im starting to seriously wonder if this is something like SPS-A and Adul-Slaxx B. I almost have managed to convince myself in the almost hour ive been writing this to bite the bullet and pull the trigger on a Sniper wagon. I mean, my policy has been a big reason he hasnt died so far, and quite a bit of me putting up with him was due to agreeing with me. I have convinced myself that I really do not like a DN lynch though.

@DN wagon - Take a strong look at who can work with him. Take a look at the complete lack of anyone trying to stop the wagon from happening. This is not a wagon that is on scum. This is a wagon on town. What happened yesterday was a wagon on scum, they got ran up and a massive opposition occured in the wagon on Max. Nothing is stopping this from happening, and I dont think DN is partners with Nik.

Vote Sniper

Im not sure if I hate myself for this or not yet, jury is out there.

Go go gadget 180 wagon

[Furry]

@pul - You obviously are not a mastin alt... ive played with him a few times so can attest to that one (also ive played with phoebus ages ago, surprised you have though). Im pretty sure DN is (although I dont know of who) and SPS is. For me... well we will leave it up to "maybe"

@SFG - Would you rather Adul wagon? Im more then happy to go along with that wagon today as well.

[Furry]

The fact that Max got killed by A

actually makes the four of the Max voters very unlikely A. I would say there is a high chance that BOTH scum B are in [Slaxx/Adul/DN], confirming Max as town makes town who decides to go for A ignore these three players, there is your motivation right there.

Okay the bolded part really sounds like a scum slip. How do you know Scum A killed Max?

I have been saying this since NK speculation started, and have been operating under the assumption that Max got killed by both groups since the day started. It makes far more sense then the only other scenario of "sniper didnt kill" or "sniper was framed by a no kill".

@SFG - Would you rather Adul wagon? Im more then happy to go along with that wagon today as well.

This sounds really sheepish.

How does confirming Max-town cause Slaxx/Me/DN to be ignored?

I actually brought this up a few times (and is the reason for B to kill Max). If we ever decides "lets lynch scum A", the three of you will immediately be ignored. Given that Max is additonally confirmed not B, it just makes the Nik wagon look much worse.

[Furry]

unvote
vote Adul

Admittedly a shameless wagon. I think its at least one of Adul-Slaxx though as B from past analysis, and this is the only one that looks like it has any force behind it.

[Furry]

Ugh. Are you guys sure you can't trust me on this one? I have accurate town reads.

Most of the time, I will too, and I have sold myself pretty hard that DN is town. That wagon showed up on not a whole lot of evidence, and since then has been universally accepted as the correct lynch at such a rate where anyone who really wanted to could have came in and shut it down. I highly doubt DN is scum A, and in a game where he has a partner (outside of sniper) there is no way the lynch would have occured in this particular way.

If we're really going to fail to lynch DN because no one is opposing his lynch and mislynch Alduskkel instead, I'm going to hit someone with a chair.

What are the scumgroups then?

[Furry]

Unvote, Vote: DeathNote

. Furry, just because it seems that someone has been abandoned by everyone (and thus scum aren't helping them) doesn't mean there isn't bussing going on or something.

No way in this position. Scum B get a non-A lynch and if A screws up the NK they can actually win the game (which btw if we mislynch A might not want to kill). I dont think that they are going to be bussing in this situation with at least not trying anything else first.

Two votes on me without explanation is getting ridiculous. Pardon me, but since when are me and Slaxx a scum team? What links between us are there? What individual scum tells are there? I haven't seen much in the way of cases being brought up.

Im going to be floored if one of you/Slaxx isnt scum B. The Max kill from B makes absolutely no sense if this isnt the case.

@Adul - Have you played with DN? If so how does meta match up? I see you basing your entire case on Haylen too. Also if Haylen was scum, why didnt you push a case yesterday? I see a vote for no content, but thats it. Was little enough for me to not even remember that suspicion from you.

[Furry]

Link. Contains Town-me and Town-DeathNote. Just iso'd DN, seems really similar to this game actually.

Unvote

. Anyone have Scum-DN meta?

found one. Apparently it was a two faction game too.

Furry, I don't think you can base a whole scum team theory off of one night kill. If me and Slaxx are scum, why don't you go and iso one or both of us with your newly found "knowledge" to verify your suspicions?

Not when its 2 in the morning but I will tomorrow

[Furry]

Some key points against adul

1) Behavior at end of D1 suggested voting was utility lynch as opposed to scumhunting.

Though I'm very upset with Haylen and Nicodemus's (active, in the case of Haylen) lurking, I'm willing to see their play on Day 2. I don't see Sniper improving anytime soon though.

Like most of the posts, it seems that Adul just wants sniper dead to get him out of the way, also is setting himself up for a town and prob-town wagon the next day.

2) Early D2 again centers around policy as opposed to scumhunting.

Haylen, it's Day 2 and the Scummies are over. I DEMAND CONTENT. Until then, Vote: Haylen.
---
I'm also curious to see whether Sniper will be replaced.

Odd that haylen is chosen over sniper, but again we are paying attention to lurkers.

3) Insistant lurker hunting - I have zero clue if this is meta, but you have done nothing but try and get the lurkers lynched as opposed to actually forming a case. Late into D2 I know you want the people not contributing to contribute, but by latching onto that you are failing to do so yourself. Shown in

If Haylen's Town, I'd head for Sniper, unless we get cross kills, in which case I'll probably examine those and give those more thought than Sniper. Whoever is then implicated would be my suspect.

Quick Lurker List:
Haylen (obvious reasons right now, but also before she became Mod too)
Sniper
Nikanor
Pulindar

Again with haylen and sniper for not much more then lurking, or at least never elaborated as more then. After that it goes to sniper for being useless and then mention of other quiet people.

4) Adul day three fits scum B motive.

I'm hopefully going to do (or at least work on) a reread/skimming looking for Nikanor connections. For all of you who are trying to figure out whether we should be lynching Rebels or Arkons, well, I'll just settle for lynching any scum at all. The remaining Rebel might become clear if we just do some hunting. If anyone has any good theories for Arkon scum though, I'll hear them, I just think they're less likely to be caught at the moment.

This is very likely coming from scum B. Remember what I said about if we decide to lynch A there are going to be a couple people who we dont pay any attention too? Remember who is one of those people? Yep.

Mood of town changes and so does Aduls

Personally, I'd PREFER to lynch scum B (arkons) since then we can hope for cross kills. On the other hand I think we have a better chance of lynching the remaining scum A by supplementing our suspicions with Nikanor links. It's a toss-up really, but like I've said before, I'd prefer to just lynch any scum at all and not worry so much about the type.

Suddenly there is a clear interest in B lynch, even though it continues to be stressed that an A lynch is the safer option of the two.

5) Haylen/DN case

DeathNote: Look at his and Haylen's contributions to this game. Especially Haylen. Does anyone really see much substance here? I could forgive it if it was just DeathNote. Having played with him, I know that his current play style isn't really that different. Haylen has meta too, but the fact that she obviously put time into this game (re: the charts) but still didn't actually give us much to work with is active lurking at its "finest."

Ultra weak for this late in a game. The case literally is "not contributing, active lurking". Thats it, in a position where if there isnt a scum lynch town cant win without help from scum. This does not fit the bill of how town would go about it.

~~~~~~

Right now adul is firmly planted on the DN wagon, albeit a bit late, after the bottom has fallen out of that wagon. The only people he has been remotely suspicious of this entire game seem to come down to how active the player has been, which ironically is a form of active lurking.

Im done moving my vote. Will try and persuade more over the next couple days but do remember its under 48 hours to deadline.

[Furry]

@sniper - You should move your vote to aldu, it lynches scum and gets one of the people who are trying to lynch you out of the game

@DN - Self-pres vote now please

Will answer stuff tomorrow, for now sleep

[Furry]

I give up. no one ever believes me anyways and i seem to be failing my town miserably right now.

unvote

ill replace out if i get a majority of people to agree.

No, dont replace out. Ive been having a noticeably difficult time with my reads and im sticking with it.

Im still completely against a DN/Haylen lynch outside of deadline, but Sniper deadline is acceptable.

[Furry]

unvote
vote sniper

indecisive I know, but this works I think

[Furry]

It is very possible that if we screw up, we'll never get back into a position in which we can afford to lynch Sniper. Which means that there's motive for the Arkons to kill Sniper themselves.

logic says that sniper wont be shot at regardless of what group he is in unless it will put the killing group in lylo or better. Even then if B thinks they can force a 2-2-1 tomorrow, they will be going for that since its the optimal position.

sniper can easily be scum A, but I actually still can see him working as scum B, just much less likely. When we have someone that works as one group, and still can easily work as a second group, they should be the prefered lynch.

DN is still town on meta, and on the fact that everyone just went "yeah thats a good idea" when he was up for lynch.

This whole "if we mislynch sniper we lose" thing is a scare tactic. If we mislynch anyone we likely lose in this scenario, as B are going to just do anything they can to ensure a win with a non-B lynch, including leaving sniper alive. I actually see no way sniper dies tonight unless he is not A and A decides to go for him.

@SFG - School comes first. No one will say you are scummy if you need to go V/LA to get that done. If you look back at my games, even this one, you can see when workload picked up.

[Furry]

This whole "if we mislynch sniper we lose" thing is a scare tactic. If we mislynch anyone we likely lose in this scenario, as B are going to just do anything they can to ensure a win with a non-B lynch, including leaving sniper alive. I actually see no way sniper dies tonight unless he is not A and A decides to go for him.

Eh... that's not how I saw it. What SPS was saying was that if we Lynch sniper then we need to lynch correctly for the next two days as well, which he thinks will be difficult. If we mislynch today though Scum B need to Kill the remaining Scum A to get back into that position so they'll be Looking for Scum A. Scum A may also try for scum B, and may get them. In the least they'll probably kill a scummy town rather than killing a Obv Townie.

Unless B are 100% sure Sniper is A, I do not think they will kill him given that he is the highest chance of doing something stupid to lose the game for town. I would rather lynch him today given that he fits for A and B, and given that is such a small chance of him actually ever being NKed.

Either way if we lynch B, scum will probably only go for the cross kill if they think that they are in a very strong position as cross kill leaves it at 4-1 giving the town two lynch chances.

[Furry]

That's true... Eh I don't know what to do So many possibilities.

You can always do the failsafe of look at the wagons and support the one more town reads are on, or just vote whoever your strongest townread is voting. Both of those are pretty extreme though, I still advise a sniper vote with deadline tomorrow.

[Furry]

Deadline got extended to next week.

ahh

In that case I still reccomend a sniper vote but take your time and see what you can come up with

[Furry]

Furry, do you actually believe there could be a chance... any glimmer of a chance that Sniper is Scum B?

If so please let me know...

There is. I just am somewhat stuck on Slaxx-Adul is the B team in my mind. The way Slaxx just abandoned that wagon when they only thing that changed was Sniper being replaced really bugs me.

Furry, I need a good reason to suspect him of being Scum B..

I there is no stellar reason to think it. It just is a utility-ish lynch of a player that works with a whole lot of different players and different alignments. Its a safe lynch, its a useful lynch, but it may not be the best lynch. I still am mulling over the Adul lynch which still is intreauging.

I'm going to decide in a few hours whether to hammer or not. I need to go for a bit though ... be back and I'm going to consider this. What SPS said about us loosing a good townie if we lynch Scum A still bugs me.

scare tactics! Lynching scum A is still a good thing. Just not ideal.

[Furry]

Puli was threatening to hammer, Furry.

So sniper is your top pick then?

[Furry]

So...

Can we get back to lynching DeathNotescum?

Nah, he still is going to be town here. Its more of a matter to me of if I can find the reasoning needed to get Adul/Slaxx lynch.

[Furry]

Should be back full force for a couple days tomorrow, have about eight to ten hours worth of stuff (thermodynamics, structural design and psychology) due tomorrow that has been swamping me this week. Going to be out of town this weekend, but there will be internet, most likely limited though. Tomorrow and friday are going to be the best time for me to get stuff done.

Continuing to debate kick starting the adul wagon.

[Furry]

Just finished making a response to Adul case and my browser decided to crash and I lost it. Will try and get it made up again tonight but I do not have the time right now.

Not in the least against this move to Adul lynch

[Furry]

Ok so I kept putting off replying to the case, made $60 playing poker however. Its a good thing though I think.

I dont see any way Sniper and Adul (or Adul and DN) are scum together. This actually almost makes me want an Adul lynch more since that would effectively take two people out of the B pool (although they arent likely there to start).

unvote
vote Adul

I will explain this better tomorrow or over the weekend

[Furry]

I have been pulled out of town this weekend and have a midterm tuesday so dont expect much untill tuesday night.

Furry, what makes you think I'm not possibly scum with DN and Sniper? I could be bussing them for some reason (though that's not my scum style, especially with a killing group out there).

This I can answer though. You have been ignoring cases based on scummy behavior for the most part in the place of policy lynches. I dont see you bussing your partner on policy when there are quite a few other options.

[Furry]

unvote

I want to hear Furry's opinion on all this, although he/she might have already expressed it before.

We've got 5 days.

Still V/LA so nothing in depth but I can make quick response posts.

I think Pul is the best bet for scum A, and little below the halfway point for scum B. Not the ideal lynch for today since im more happy with a top B pick, but if it was going to be Pul or DN, it should be obvious where my vote is going to be.

[Furry]

I think Pul is the best bet for scum A, and little below the halfway point for scum B. Not the ideal lynch for today since im more happy with a top B pick, but if it was going to be Pul or DN, it should be obvious where my vote is going to be.

Eh... what's the case? You unvoted me after my defensive post, and have yet to make any new points. The only point I saw was

Its why im not voting you hun. I still think you are a better bet for A than Sniper though so am fine with just leaving that there for now.

You work as a partner to Nik, almost purely for the fact that you were not a part of that wagon. Yes I fully conced that I also work for that reason, but I see no way the partner to Nik is NOT in one of the players voting not-nik, which is [you/me/SPS/Sniper].

I don't agree with that attack for two reasons. (which I've already stated) One, I would have sealed the the Max lynch to defend Nika. (which SFG thought I would do anyway) and Two. I believe in Bussing so while I think Sniper spot is Scum A, I believe enough in bussing that I'm not writing others off as possibilities.

It would have been an eyebrow raise for you to have hammered Max there. Not that it was the worst move possible, but Max-town and Nik-scum would have led to a very quick lynch of you. Also unless Nik partner was 100% convinced that Max was town, they would never have bussed. Max-scum lynch give a bit of a breather to Nik, and credits Nik-partner with a scum lynch. Its not impossible, but its improbable.

Back to other stuff now

I would agree that Deathnote's playstyle is...frustrating.

Agreed, but he still ends up being town in this situation. We just have to keep him on the right track

[Furry]

Like most of the posts, it seems that Adul just wants sniper dead to get him out of the way

No shit. I desperately wanted him out of the way. I still do. I don't know if you support policy lynches, but I do, and we don't agree that doesn't make me scummy. Also, Sniper was scummy anyway. I can reiterate points I've said before... or you can do some homework and find them yourself. Pulindar has provided evidence against Sniper as well.

Do you support a policy lynch of him at this point in time? If you still want that lynch reitterating the points would be nice.

also is setting himself up for a town [Nicodemus] and prob-town [Haylen] wagon the next day.

Okay, Haylen/DN is not prob-town. I'd put him as neutral right now, and Haylen was DEFINITELY scummy due to active lurking. As for Nicodemus, you have to view this with the knowledge of Day 1. Namely, there was none, at least there were no flips. A bunch of people thought Nicodemus were scum. That's why he was lynched. Do you suspect those people?

To an extent, yes it is a tell on the wagon. It doesnt detract from the fact that you were visably setting up for getting on two wagons, one which is proven town and one which is my second strongest town read at this juncture.

[2) Early D2 again centers around policy as opposed to scumhunting.

Haylen, it's Day 2 and the Scummies are over. I DEMAND CONTENT. Until then, Vote: Haylen.
---
I'm also curious to see whether Sniper will be replaced.

Odd that haylen is chosen over sniper, but again we are paying attention to lurkers.

Haylen was chosen because, as I said, I wanted to see improvement in play from Haylen as IIRC she said she played better later on and the scummies were over.

So it was a pressure vote? Sniper was the "better" lynch?

3) Insistant lurker hunting - I have zero clue if this is meta, but you have done nothing but try and get the lurkers lynched as opposed to actually forming a case.

Accusing someone of lurking is a case.

More of a supplement then anything else really, some players will always lurk, although on some occasions it is a tell. Is it meta for you to lurker hunt?

4) Adul day three fits scum B motive.

I'm hopefully going to do (or at least work on) a reread/skimming looking for Nikanor connections. For all of you who are trying to figure out whether we should be lynching Rebels or Arkons, well, I'll just settle for lynching any scum at all. The remaining Rebel might become clear if we just do some hunting. If anyone has any good theories for Arkon scum though, I'll hear them, I just think they're less likely to be caught at the moment.

This is very likely coming from scum B. Remember what I said about if we decide to lynch A there are going to be a couple people who we dont pay any attention too? Remember who is one of those people? Yep.

Yeah I don't really follow you at all. How is the quoted post relevant?

"We should lynch scum. Im going to look for who is A, that should be easier to get after doing research. If someone wants to give theory on B ok, but lynching B is more likely to be a mislynch"

Personally, I'd PREFER to lynch scum B (arkons) since then we can hope for cross kills. On the other hand I think we have a better chance of lynching the remaining scum A by supplementing our suspicions with Nikanor links. It's a toss-up really, but like I've said before, I'd prefer to just lynch any scum at all and not worry so much about the type.

Suddenly there is a clear interest in B lynch, even though it continues to be stressed that an A lynch is the safer option of the two.

Scum A is not "safer." It's easier. And we SHOULD lynch Scum B today, if we can. Do you disagree? If we lynch Scum A today we're headed for MYLO tomorrow.

Most of your early day attention seems to be fixated on A. Also im still not of the boat "B is obviously the better lynch". I would be perfectly fine with an A lynch today, since with a B one its not a cakewalk if crosskills dont pan out, and I dont think scum will try to crosskill with B lynch.

The case [on haylen] literally is "not contributing, active lurking". Thats it, in a position where if there isnt a scum lynch town cant win without help from scum. This does not fit the bill of how town would go about it.

But lack of content late in the game is even worse. It means that you've squandered a bunch of posts but still haven't given much analysis, and haven't given others something to analyze. Just as an example: Has Sniper ever analyzed anything? Have we ever analyzed him? We never quote Sniper and argue with him. We just let him be, annoyingly enough.

There are other ways to catch lurker scum, like ties to dead scum, and PoE of other players. I just really dont like how every case not related to activity has been ignored by you for the most part.

[Furry]

This is going to be short because im posting in between classes

Most of your early day attention seems to be fixated on A. Also im still not of the boat "B is obviously the better lynch". I would be perfectly fine with an A lynch today, since with a B one its not a cakewalk if crosskills dont pan out, and I dont think scum will try to crosskill with B lynch.

Not the first Night, no. But it does leave open the possibility. It's essentially pretty simple. If we lynch perfectly, then the order doesn't matter and we'll win. Lynching A means we have to lynch perfectly, not doing so means we have alternative ways of winning. (For example, if we mislynch today, the town can't afford to lynch xReck unless there's a crosskill, so xReck won't shoot scum B that Night, but scum B may well decide to take out xReck thereby ensuring they only need one mislynch to win. (Assuming xReck is scum A here.))

Yes, lynch of A (followed by no lynch) puts us in a 3:2 endgame, where what happens on the first lynch likely decides the game. Lynching B followed by no cross kill puts us at 3:1:1, where we still need two successful lynches. Scum shooting for crosskill makes its 4:1 with a B lynch, meaning they would need two mislynches. Even if we lynch B, chances are scum arent going to intentionally help us.

Ive played as scum in a 8:2:2 open, I know a little more about the thought process as scum than most in this.

Also can someone tell me what PoE means real quick?

Process of elimination. Saying "scum cant be X or Y, so Z is scum"

[Furry]

That's pretty convincing stuff. I too was suspicious of Al/SPS, which is why I asked that question a while back. Neither of them justified their town reads too well.

Puli or Adul for scum and why. Next post too please.

[Furry]

unvote

Given that adul can be lynched (slaxx and puli) im unvoting untill tomorrow around this time

[Furry]

Also

@slaxx - Why arent you voting adul if you think he is scum?

[Furry]

Furry, were you the one who said lynching scum A was better?

I said that I was perfectly fine with lynching A today. I have enough town reads to take into a mylo/lylo situation and be happy.

Also just got paranoia wave, im going to think about it before I start bringing it up.

[Furry]

Furry: Absolutely nothing to say about all the meta I gave you? Lame.

Just got time to look at it a bit.

You do seem to be concentrating a little more on lurkers then normal in this game. Not sure what type, if any, of a tell this is, but it is somewhat to town meta.

Also im still trying to figure something out. Something recently just really started bugging me, like really really bugging me.

I want Slaxx to vote now. He has no reason not to since his top pick is not getting lynched. That vote is all I am waiting on at this point

[Furry]

Just got time to look at it a bit.

You do seem to be concentrating a little more on lurkers then normal in this game. Not sure what type, if any, of a tell this is, but it is somewhat to town meta.

Okay... do you have a case at this point, then? If so, what points are left that I haven't responded to adequately (in your opinion, at least)?

Ive seen the responses and it shakes confidence a bit, but I dont see a much better case.

Also im still trying to figure something out. Something recently just really started bugging me, like really really bugging me.

Not a lot of time left Furry, you're going to have to tell us what this is about soon, unless for some reason you want to leave it for Day 4... and I can think of no good reason to withhold information from the Town.

Once Slaxx votes

[Furry]

Furry's offline right now... hope he logs on soon.

You rang?

Well anyways, I just had a sudden problem in trying to find a partner to you, I really wanted to see what Slaxx would do over the vote on you, since he is one of the few people I can see as scum with you. Now it get wierd.

You can be scum with Slaxx or SPS. I dont see it with anyone else.
Puli can be scum with DN, which I dont think is even possible. He works well as A though.

Now I actually was convinced out of nowhere it was Slaxx-Puli untill that vote. I was why I wanted it, as if Slaxx voted you I would be right on the Puli wagon since he then jumps to top three both factions.

Sooo.... now we go off in a brand new direction since my top suspects are kind of tapped out on what actually works. I actually just have had SPS just WAY up on my list of wanting lynched.

GAH!

I just dont know right now. I was really hoping that Slaxx would just vote Adul and make this easy.

Something is nagging me over Adul lynch, but im not sure the alternative is the right move either. The fact that adul hasnt self-pres voted also is a point to him.

[Furry]

I'm experienceing similiar frustrations. I'm just going to throw this out to Furry. Have you considered SFG/Puli at all for B?

Pretty sure SFG scum isnt going to happen, it works, but I dont see it.

[Furry]

Furry, Pulindar-DN works. Deal with it.

Ehhhhh

Yes I know it works, thats actually one of the reasons why I unvoted Adul (put Pul as default lynch). Looking at Pul-DN/Haylen I can see a connection, there are rare namedrops, but it almost seems too buddy-buddy. Im thinking Pul has a much higher chance of flipping A though than B.

Plus, you don't have to justify Town reads. Town read is the default read. You have to justify Scum reads.

The default read is a null read (you could call it a town read, but then what do you call it when you think someone is more likely to be town than he should be on average?). Town reads are less important, generally speaking, but still require justification.

Burden of proof is on the person presenting the scum read. If you cant prove someone is scum, they usually arent scum.

Will vote Pul before deadline at this point (~3 hours) but I dont want to hammer him before he gets a last post chance.

[Furry]

Vote Pul

Lynch is better then no lynch. I think this is going to be an A lynch, which works pretty well.

[Furry]

As stated, basically V/LA due to finals this week.

Leaning to a DN vote at this point though, since even though it would be ego-boost to see Adul-Slaxx pairing, I doubt its the case. DN is only other option.

[Furry]

Ok, so this should be easy.

So who do we want lynch first? xReck or DN?

DN obviously, I dont think B can be anyone but him. Still not 100% sold on reck-A, you still work although not as well.

And yeah... im obviously destracted with finals. For all practical purposes im voting DN though. Will flesh this out between thursday and monday finals

[Furry]

Yeah I dont think im going to vote anyone but DN today unless something huge happens. Its basically assured that DN is scum since Adul-B just doesnt seem all that likely (although feaseable if DN is town... hint hint A).

B on the other hand im still more or less undecided over. I would be far from shocked if it was SPS, although I do lean reck at this point. Basically my notes there just are "one of the two". Funny that both sides are "one of the two".

Given that we are lynching DN (unless something big happens again) im just going to end any further thoughts I have on A with what I have now. If I can make the choice of who to take to F3 harder for A, all the better. I advise Adul not to talk about it either.

If Adul and DN actually both get points in soon, I will hammer so that my finals take place during night for the most part. I dont want to keep people waiting on me when my decision is basically made.

[Furry]

Or to put is easier...

DN basically said "I am not scum, I dont know who is scum, but its not me". He is making no attempt to find either scum, which is scummy on its own merits.

@DN - Who is scum? Who cant be scum? (both with respect to both factions)

[Furry]

Ok see, im trying to get you to actually participate here. If you are town, make a case, at least give us two names. If you are scum, keep it up.

Seriously hun, who do you think is scum? Is there anyone you think is town? Whats going through your mind?

[Furry]

lol

Almost went with SPS after the quickhammer, but just didnt see him bussing right there.

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/fWLKZjnrKsa

Nothing really in there though, biggest post was my thought process for Slaxx kill. Thought it was DN and I had it though.

[Furry]

Furry you'd better be damn happy that I died when I did because your post two posts after Day start convinced me 100% you were scum. Also every townsperson on the DN lynch should be thoroughly ashamed of themself, that day went WAY too fast and you'd ALREADY CONCLUDED THE PREVIOUS DAY that DN was town.

I also was "fully convinced" that Puli was scum A. The only ones who worked with Puli from my perspective were you, Adul and DN. You were very likely town, Adul-Puli didnt make much sense since it would have ment neither played optimally D4, so I ended up with DN working. I actually was completely sure of DN-scum as stated in my QT.

Well played, but I don't think that 4 days of straight lylo was fair to the town in any way :/ we were pretty doomed from the start imho.

Ive played this setup twice, its very very hard for town to win, especially if scum doesnt do anything to help the town

Oh also, Furry, if I may ask, DID you kill Max and if so, why?

Made my life easier. He probably wasnt going to be lynched, he obviously wasnt from the faction I was in, and he wanted me lynched. The middle one was the biggest factor, since after a close one resulting in Nik lynch I needed the people on the Nik wagon to die off ASAP.

[Furry]

Hey guys, that was fun. I've decided im going to run away to new york tomorrow and become a hobo who lives at the top of the statue of liberty, anyone want to join me? I'll be a bit bored up there by myself. My plane will probably get in during the night - but i havent booked the flight yet, or the train ticket. I want to run away from my parents, my life and my jordan,

If you make it all the way out to San Fran and I will hang out

Anyway, as for the alt think you're LF's alt, right?

How did you come up with this anyway?

SPS's eagerness should have been a hint. Furry played good scum.

Im dangerous (and for some reason almost always) scum. I think over all accounts im 11-3-1 (WLT) with two losses coming from other scum killing me.

[Furry]

Speaking of which...I can't believe the Arkons and Rebels ended up drawing the game. I thought that SPS at least would be obvscum after suggesting that town could afford to mislynch in near-Lylo. Only Reck seemed to catch the slip, and then he went for DeathNote instead. Even though SPS wasn't lynched or NKed, I still can't believe both the mafia factions happened to target the two surviving townies, especially since I didn't think Alduskkel was scummy enough to be considered a target.

It was an odd spot. Reck/Sniper was a geniune town read and I wasnt going back on that, so it left SPS and Adul. SPS would have had to bus Pul when he could have stayed on the DN wagon or jumped to the Adul one that I was pushing. Adul and Pul pretty much ignored eachothers wagons all of that day, so I went with what was around a 60-40 to kill Adul. I just figured ignorance > untimely bus

@SFG - To me "obvtown" is someone who there is no way you can make a case on, or has been hitting all to almost all of your town tells.