Open 227 - Friends and Enemies

[Ythan]

First game started in this forum?

[Ythan]

I'll just keep telling myself it's an historic game.

[Ythan]

No.

[Ythan]

I don't like to brag but if someone else is doing it for me I'll take it.

[Ythan]

Vote: Ythan

for having a batman avatar.

BLUE LANTERNS ARE DICKS

[Ythan]

vote: zerofang

for trying really hard to make his vote seem random.

Ugh, I wanted to do this on someone after everyone else had placed a vote and I could pick the worst one.

Why him in particular? Does he seem to be trying harder than anyone else?

[Ythan]

It doesn't really stand out to me among the other RVs in that way. I think he's probably just not funny. He did place two though.

[Ythan]

Sure did say that.

[Ythan]

RVS discussion is no more pro-town than any-other-stage-discussion.

[Ythan]

Actually I thought it was suspicious. And I know what RVS is and is for. And I know that it is useless and your complains aren't really valid.

[Ythan]

unvote, vote: a knotted rope

He was the first person to put a vote on ZeroFang, and hasn't commented since. I'd like to see input from him.

wow. good catch there. i didn't even notice that. he jumped off the lead bandwagon without even mentioning it. lets get out of the rvs. my vote stands.

He was the first person on the wagon too. I like my vote as well.

Your argument is invalid

Then you damn well better explain why.

[Ythan]

Don't answer his questions for him.

[Ythan]

I've played with Lowell once and if he flakes and we get a replacement it won't be so bad for anyone.

[Ythan]

As I have said my experience with Lowell is limited to one game, one game in which he was woefully anti-town.

[Ythan]

I don't know what you're talking about. I just said that he's not good.

[Ythan]

well

[Ythan]

Yeah. I didn't actually ask, as I should have, but in my first post on this page I was wondering why he said that.

[Ythan]

its common sense imo. saying "anti-town

always

= scummy" is a fallacy.

Nobody said that.

if lowell always acts anti-town, then that means he is an easy lynch. ythan wants him to replace out because he is anti-town.

I didn't say this, though it would be a sensible thing for me to have said.

ythan skirts the fact

Incorrect.

that lowell might

actually be scum

in this game which would make lowell an easy scum lynch.

I'll sum up why this is dumb at the bottom.

why would you want an easy scum lynch to replace out?

Why would I support the replacement of an anti-town player who might be scum?

its not a big deal,

Don't distance yourself from your arguments. Even if they're terrible.

but it certainly supports the ythan/zerofang connection a bit more.

What ythan/zerofang connection and how?

but whateverz. thats just my opinion. which is what you asked for if i am correct in thinking that. proceed.

That thing about distancing, I meant it.

This is a TERRIBLE argument. I said it wouldn't be so bad for him to be replaced, then explained that it is because he is woefully anti-town. Then you made up this argument that, honestly, I would consider an affront to God if I were religious.

vote don_johnson

[Ythan]

His insistence that anti-town players are somehow pro-town because they might be scum and get lynched for being anti-town is ridiculous.

[Ythan]

its common sense imo. saying "anti-town

always

= scummy" is a fallacy.

Nobody said that.

didn't say that anybody said it. i was responding to xscorp's question.

Considering that in a response to me you said that saying this is a fallacy you can't complain when I correct you.

if lowell always acts anti-town, then that means he is an easy lynch. ythan wants him to replace out because he is anti-town.

I didn't say this, though it would be a sensible thing for me to have said.

didn't say you said this either. not sure why you feel the need to point it out.

You said I did in that quote, genius.

ythan skirts the fact

Incorrect.

no. if lowell is scum, and he plays anti-town, then it should be easy for you to get him lynched. why would you want him to replace if you think you could easily get him lynched and he might be scum? the way you said it sounded like you want him to replace because he's "anti-town", but "anti-town" play only hurts town if it comes from a town player. hence, you know lowell is town and are saying that you want him to replace in order to

look

pro-town in case he is lynched or nk'd and actually does flip town. you ignore the scenario in which lowell could be scum. otherwise you would vote him instead of asking him to replace.

Trying hard not to call you an idiot because I'm trying to be nicer in games. Please don't ruin that for me.

why would you want an easy scum lynch to replace out?

Why would I support the replacement of an anti-town player who might be scum?

EXACTLY.

Because there's a 75% chance that he's town, idiot. See what you made me do?

its not a big deal,

Don't distance yourself from your arguments. Even if they're terrible.

argument is okay. not stellar, but your paranoid reaction is sweet. especially since i'm not voting you.

No, it's a shit argument actually.

but it certainly supports the ythan/zerofang connection a bit more.

What ythan/zerofang connection and how?

zero votes his scumbuddy ythan in the rvs. wagon builds, zero hops off with

another

random vote. zero and ythan run off together and build a snow fort and hold hands. pretty basic there.

lol ok

but whateverz. thats just my opinion. which is what you asked for if i am correct in thinking that. proceed.

That thing about distancing, I meant it.

hows about you answer xscorp's question?

You should worry about your own hole at the moment. Scorpion and I can handle our business without a genius helping us out.

This is a TERRIBLE argument. I said it wouldn't be so bad for him to be replaced, then explained that it is because he is woefully anti-town. Then you made up this argument that, honestly, I would consider an affront to God if I were religious.

its actually not terrible, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

Sounds like that reasoning is exactly what helps you sleep.

Don I agree with you here in a lot of respects. Some players are generally anti-town. That's just how they play, regardless of actual role or alignment. I agree with that. I also agree that those anti-town players aren't necessarily scum because that's just how they act. I don't agree, however, that we should lynch Lowell because he's an easy lynch on the chance that he's scum. He hasn't even posted yet, so we don't know anything about him. Only the scum vote people out because they're an easy target, and that's what you just suggested we do.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! i'm lynching you. not lowell. lern to read.

more zero votes please.

[/quote]The laugh works since anyone agreeing with you is funny. But you're not lynching anyone today unless you self-vote.

[Ythan]

No, it wouldn't lead anywhere.

[Ythan]

Actually. I would prefer that you don't vote me so that you can vote don instead.

[Ythan]

Yeah all he has on ZF is the trying to make his vote seem random thing. Disingenuous when he says he's pushing a lynch. But you, Scorpion, I don't like you discounting scumtells because they've been wrong before.

[Ythan]

That's really dumb reasoning. I'd vote you if I wasn't voting don because you're acknowledging and then discounting a valid tell.

[Ythan]

No I want you to acknowledge scumtells instead of dismissing them offhand. Is that too much to ask without you trying to turn it around on me to get attention off of yourself?

[Ythan]

Don't assume I haven't noticed something just because I don't assign the same importance to it that you do.

I'm not mad. I called you a moron because your argument is moronic. I am looking at this objectively. You're looking at it wrong and arguing a terrible point. And now you're supplementing your argument that Lowell be allowed to be anti-town because there is a 1/4 chance he is scum with the possibility that roles aren't distributed randomly.

I don't give a shit about ZF right now. I'm talking about you, and before that I was talking about Lowell. You are not arguing that an anti-town player is good because they may be lynched as scum. You're full of shit trying to spin it that way. And calling discussion "off the point" when you're under attack so we can focus on something else paints you a darker shade of scummy. Please self-vote so we can get you lynched quicker.

[Ythan]

I'm the one who suggested he replace out genius.

And none of that is what you were arguing. I don't care what you're arguing in that post you just made, I obviously have a problem with what you said earlier before you were pressed to shore up that weak argument.

I'm not going to answer the question you tagged onto the end of your post. You're trying to get attention off of yourself with unrelated shit I don't care about. I'm talking about you. And you're the one I'm going after.

[Ythan]

Moot point. I was correcting you, which you skimmed right over because you're not trying to make a point. And now you say I'm tunneling. Which is the most common bullshit argument I see from scum who are under attack. For god's sake try to keep some goonish dignity about yourself.

[Ythan]

I'm ignoring the pointless unrelated questions you're tagging onto the ends of your responses in order to shift focus off of your own play. How you go from that to tunneling would be baffling if I didn't think you were full of it.

[Ythan]

When did anyone say that they wanted to lynch Lowell?

[Ythan]

Don is constantly changing his argument because not one of them holds any water. Lynch please.

[Ythan]

Consistent? Hardly, you're talking about something completely different in almost every post. What's even worse is that you're referring back to your older posts saying that you were talking about something that you clearly were not.

[Ythan]

what

[Ythan]

I don't have to prove anything to you, and at six pages long the other players seem to be doing jut fine reading you themselves. Quit stalling for time plz.

[Ythan]

what does "stalling for time" mean? it takes seven votes to lynch. if you want my lynch it would go faster if you provided a case. it might help other players make up their minds. but if you want everyone to just read i'm okay with that. would you like me to stop posting?

You've posted plenty for my taste tbh. I'd love everyone to take a read.

[Ythan]

I jut saw Lowell post in a queue.

[Ythan]

Wait so you're actually

declaring

that you're going off to lurk?

[Ythan]

What an impressive contribution of nothing.

vote: CSL

I don't suppose you actually were going to read the rest of the topic before jumping to your conclusion?

This is pretty a pretty weak post for a vote.

Well, I'm back from V/LA and this game got four and a half pages longer. Holy hell.

Have we ever played together?

First: the theory argument between Ythan and DJ over lowell was COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY POINTLESS.

It's not a theory argument, I'm attacking Don.

If it really bothers you that much I can go back to voting you because you are dodging my questions, AGAIN.

unvote
Vote: Zerofang

Are you kidding me.

Well then stop wasting time with these pointless quips and be useful.

Are you kidding me.

[Ythan]

This is pretty a pretty weak post for a vote.

Yeah that's what I thought when I read his. So if he thinks it's fine to do it then I don't see why I can't.

I assume he's doing something right if he agrees with me.

[Ythan]

This is serious shit. We're not talking about theory. Claims that we should move on will be met with violence.

[Ythan]

I'm not talking about theory. Whoever is portraying this as a discussion of whether anti-town players should be replaced, that hasn't been the subject of our conversation since shortly after I first said it wouldn't be so bad for Lowell to replace out.

btw Lowell still hasn't posted after, as I said earlier, I saw him post in a queue.

[Ythan]

What do you think of a player who flakes out while being active on-site?

[Ythan]

Looks like something retarded happened while I was gone. Reading.

[Ythan]

We already know ythan is generally an idiot

Lol says Lowell of all people.

Why was I the subject of instense discussion?

because ythan insisted.

If by ythan you mean you.

We already know ythan is generally an idiot,

actually, i am just learning this. never played with him before if memory serves...

It's too bad you don't have something real to say.

so I'm not sure why don and chaud needed to jump in and defend my honor.

i wouldn't call it that. but whatever.

Guess you wouldn't explain it either.

Also, the

Zero

case is nowhere, and pointless. He's town.

if you say so.

unvote

.

You are a terrible player.

[Ythan]

Was your grandfather XScorpion?

Sorry.

[Ythan]

It's pretty unambiguous.

[Ythan]

Also Ythan, what do you mean don's flip was "pretty unambiguous"

We all saw the flip. I think it's pretty clear in an open game what it meant.

Quick runthrough:

Long list. Not much to say about me, considering how much space I've taken up.

[Ythan]

Ok, I'm back from my grandparents house, and I'm going to give this game the re-read it deserves.

Also

We all saw the flip. I think it's pretty clear in an open game what it meant.

Well that's a cop-out

Ask better questions if you want better answers.

[Ythan]

Well he is a townie. Should we mope about it? Probably not. Almost every game has scummy townies, shit happens.

[Ythan]

I've been helping my girlfriend move and spending most of my time over at her new place. I'll see about catching up tonight but I'm in a few games so I'll be spreading the love around. Is there anything immediately requiring my attention while I make this same post in those other threads?

Ok, I've given this game a re-read, and I can't shake the feeling that Ythan is scum. (See: his initial and poorly placed vote on don. See his flippant attitude today. See: his avoiding questions today)

UNVOTE: Csl
VOTE: Ythan[/unvote]

Lol weak. Come up with something with some meat and get back to me so I can dispute it.

[Ythan]

Octupis: we know there are three masons and three scum in this game. Any mason who claims and is not counterclaimed is confirmed town, even if they are the last one alive.

And oh yeah this is bad planning. As if scum are going to allow an uncountered mason claim.

[Ythan]

Better for scum than a confirmed townie, obviously.

[Ythan]

They're obviously not going to trade three scum for three masons. Not the situation I'm talking about.

[Ythan]

One mason left. Like you said before my post. To assume generally that a mason claim will just work out is unwise.

[Ythan]

Eh. It's 3am.

[Ythan]

Is it ideal to draw attention to a mason softclaim or breadcrumb?

[Ythan]

I don't see how trying to out a potential mason qualifies.

[Ythan]

Kinda want to vote CSL for rolefishing.

[Ythan]

Reread CSL here assuming he is vanilla, assuming he is mason, and assuming he is scum.

[Ythan]

Is that AKR asking lowell for my meta?

[Ythan]

Considering that your vote on me lacks substance and you're now asking a third party to provide my meta evidence to dispute it I think it's about time you meet your namesake.

[Ythan]

@Ythan, why exactly is that scummy?

What thing that I called scummy are you asking me to explain?

[Ythan]

I said "that I called scummy", so that doesn't count.

[Ythan]

wha?

You're asking me why it's scummy and I didn't say it was.

[Ythan]

AKR is reaching out on a hopped up (lie I think) gut read and accepting unoffered secondhand meta to feign openmindedness.

[Ythan]

Ok, I've given this game a re-read, and I can't shake the feeling that Ythan is scum. (See: his initial and poorly placed vote on don. See his flippant attitude today. See: his avoiding questions today)

UNVOTE: Csl
VOTE: Ythan[/unvote]

This is his whole case as presented, conveniently summed up in one post and lacking any supplements to find elsewhere.

[Ythan]

You "trust"?

[Ythan]

Not afraid, suspicious.

[Ythan]

It's not the same word and they have very different meanings, especially when used in a game like this.

[Ythan]

You're just really ... I dont know what, quick to judge something trivial?

I never said you're scum. I called you out on this one thing. You're really quick to attempt to dismiss it entirely.

He is scummy because he's freaking out over this post;

This misrep was a big mistake on your part.

[Ythan]

But you kept going after me even when i explained, thats why i said you freaked out. oh? how was it a big mistake?

I kept going after you because your explanation was not sufficient, and the misrep was a big mistake because you're beginning to approach the flailing stage.

Ythan

Almost exclusively quotes/one liners. The vast majority of his content day 1 was a petty argument with Don, with little to no content today. I'm not sure how much of that to attribute to scumminess and how much to attribute to playstyle. I have hardly anything to work with here, and mystery is dangerous in this game. I'd be tempted to vote him because his scum/town status is just so questionable.

This starts out as acceptable if misguided, as anyone who has played a game will tell you that one-liners are, apart from not being scummy or anti-town in any way, my style. It gets suspicious when you suggest that you could vote me based on a lack of information. As for my lack of content today, it's a combination of spending a lot of time at my girlfriend's new place with no internet and my recent acceptance of a large number of replacement requests. After this your suspicions against CSL seem primarily to be a lurker policy lynch. No better than your reasoning against me. These weak stances seem odd juxtaposed with your defense of Oct despite evidence which you yourself provided that is at least as meaningful as that against me or CSL.

[Ythan]

Aw yes Miyu is here. zlet's lynch Xite!

[Ythan]

Why do you think I got this title?

[Ythan]

I haven't yet learned to answer that question, sorry.

[Ythan]

Any soft accusations about my activity level will be referred first to my notice about a lack of easy access, which is as of yesterday relaxing, second to my use of that same notice in all other games in which I was active at the time, and third to my highly active play in games in which I have been scum.

[Ythan]

Aw yes Miyu is here. zlet's lynch Xite!

Actually, let's lynch you, k?

and third to my highly active play in games in which I have been scum.

Seriously? Are you trying to use your own meta to justify both you not being scum and your activity level in this game? Can we lynch Ythan please?

Mod, Can we get a prod on Lowell please? Also Xite asked for a replacement here.

No, that's not going to happen. With your misrep of my justifying my own absence as non-scummy as some attempt by me to clear myself with my own meta it's much more likely to still be you I think.

[Ythan]

Prod received. Apologies. Will catch up.

Doubtful.

[Ythan]

No, that's not going to happen. With your misrep of my justifying my own absence as non-scummy as some attempt by me to clear myself with my own meta

it's much more likely to still be you I think.

I read the bolded as "Wahh, someone voted me, I'm going to put soft threats against him in my posts :humph:"

Is this meaningful or are you just going to bullshit? If so I'll talk to Miyu instead because how about actual content yes that sounds good.

Miyu good catch. I need to re-read CSL because people have been talking a lot of shit about him and that makes it worse.

[Ythan]

A vote is not neccessary to pursue you. A completely meaningless FoS even less so.

[Ythan]

In my experience that's just how Lowell posts because he's terribly anti-town as a player. Xite because my wincon is town.

[Ythan]

I did forget that Xite is replacing out. Perhaps another for the moment then, at least until we see a replacement.

[Ythan]

What do you mean

the

other person?

[Ythan]

I still need to read up on CSL. He just posted to show that he was here and nothing else.

[Ythan]

My only reservation about lynching CSL is that what appeared to be his fishing for masons may have been a mason's attempt to draw a mason fakeclaim for a lynch.

[Ythan]

As I said, my one reservation. I don't really know role-tells. I can't tell whether a player is acting like a particular role or not.

[Ythan]

This isn't an 80 page game. Read it.

[Ythan]

I know something significant that will happen d2 if he doesn't read.

[Ythan]

Setting that one concern aside for the deadline.

vote CSL

[Ythan]

Yay.

[Ythan]

It's a simple game. He's either VT, mason or scum. Self-hammer indicates that he is scum.

[Ythan]

You could have asked.

[Ythan]

So?

[Ythan]

Two dead masons? Should the last one claim?

[Ythan]

Out? You fool, what would scum possibly gain from outing the last mason, now only useful in his ability to be confirmed as town?

[Ythan]

So that really is the extent of your attack here?

[Ythan]

I suppose. I can't deny what has been posted. As for the mason QUESTION that I asked earlier, which you simply twisted to fit your case, at what point exactly is a mason to claim? You can't mean as late as lylo/mylo.

[Ythan]

See, thank you for the input.

[Ythan]

No. We have plenty of time today to arrive at a better conclusion.

[Ythan]

Wait is Lowell talking about how other people's plans for how to play Mafia are dumb?

[Ythan]

You know what they say about people who are annoyed by Ythan. They're usually terrible.

[Ythan]

Yes I'm sure that's it.

[Ythan]

I already addressed the case actually. Remember. It was less than a whole page ago.

[Ythan]

I suppose. I can't deny what has been posted.

I made it really obvious so you could read it better.

[Ythan]

It's all I have to say to your case. All you did was say that some things happened. They did. I don't have anything to say to you.

[Ythan]

No you fool. You've provided circumstantial evidence that could link me to flipped scum. That doesn't make me scum. I can't deny what happened but by no means does it make me scum. Tell me you're not seriously this confused.

[Ythan]

I understand what you're saying. You are not necessarily scum just because you are connected to someone, who flipped scum. That is true, though you are more incriminated. I am not truly sure if you're scum, but I would definitely argue you're the most likely person to flip scum right now.*

I understand and have accepted this since the beginning of the conversation.

[Ythan]

Lowell should always be lynched in every game as soon as possible, precisely because he always plays like this. Is he scum this time or just terrible town? I don't know let's wait until lylo like always and then lose. Seriously.

vote Lowell

[Ythan]

Nothing personal because you seem personally like a much cooler guy than the other people on my policy list but I will always be on your wagon in the future.

[Ythan]

It's not a policy vote. He's scummy. As fuck. He's still alive because nobody cares when he's scummy because he always is. That's a like some kind of policy-not-lynch, which is stupid. He should not still be alive today, and certainly not any further.

[Ythan]

Ugh fine. I'll take a look.

[Ythan]

AKR I feel has been quite dense lately, as if dismissing out of hand information that would sink otherwise easy wagons. Chau is solid. Lowell's scummy style should not continue to excuse his scummy play. Miyu is solid. Octupis is hazy. Try again later. Sanx reads pretty solid. Zero is hazy too. If I had to pick scum I'd say two of AKR/Lowell/Octupis/Zero. Reading for connections will refine that call.

[Ythan]

Have I not been perfectly clear that Lowell is scummy? Miyu, I'm blase because this game is not the most interesting of the like dozen that I ended up in because of my replacement policy.

[Ythan]

Zero, your claim is that my post is scummy because I didn't provide examples of why Lowell is scummy in that post. Am I misinterpreting this in any way?

[Ythan]

Lowell, your claims that people shouldn't listen to points because I make them and not on the truth value of the points is blatantly scummy. Zero, I'll iso Lowell with comments if you want commitment to specific anti-Lowell arguments from me.

[Ythan]

Wow. Completely forgot this game existed. Apologies. Said the guy who lurks anyway.

I will very seriously catch up, propose bold strategies, and get yelled at.

For whoever asked about other players, I'm still working on it.

You'll notice a pattern here.

Quick runthrough:

...

Some things, not all-inclusive:

...

Very few of the "points" in the runthrough actually contain meaningful content. His pbp is equally devoid. He just calls players scum or town with a tiny pointless, thoughtless explanation.

After this he just steps in occasionally (occasionally) to parrot or make pointless points that contribute nothing to anything. Plus lots of prod avoidance.

[Ythan]

Ythan, do you think that anti-town equals scummy?

Assuming that anti-town means actions that are bad for town (typically good for scum) and scummy means actions that scum are likely to do; not the same exactly but most cases that fall into one probably fall into the other. It might be that any anti-town action, as one that benefits scum, is scummy, but not vice versa. I'm not great with sets though.

This is disappointingly weak.

Without any reasoning why and with a healthy dose of hypocrisy I don't give a shit. Lul.

[Ythan]

My money is on Lowell isn't going to acknowledge that he's about to be hammered unless every player spoonfeeds it to him five times.

[Ythan]

Is that an Oct hammer? Regardless, I approve. I'd rather not drive out the last mason for Low's sake.

[Ythan]

Low if you're town it'd be good for you to show us those crumbs asap.

[Ythan]

Saving the claim for lylo is a mistake. All that will do is narrow down our lynch to the claimant and inevitable counterclaimant.

[Ythan]

Should we do popcorn, or pick scummiest players to claim earliest?

[Ythan]

Do you actually want to hear something from AKR or his replacement or do you just want the day to continue?

[Ythan]

I don't disagree, but just asking for the day to go on without any specific goal in mind is not constructive.

[Ythan]

This game is losing momentum.

Apologizes for the replacement situation, the replacement queue hasn't been updated since July 29th which is making it harder to find a replacement then normal and of the two people I would ask to replace in one of them knows too much to replace in and the other is too busy.

[Ythan]

Not a criticism of the mod in my last post. Replacement hunting is a bitch.

[Ythan]

So if Zero flips town/scum, the connection to me is, in a nutshell, ?

[Ythan]

Just play chess mafia so we won't have to deal with V/LA.

[Ythan]

Been having connectivity issues but things seem to be looking up.

[Ythan]

So if Zero flips town/scum, the connection to me is, in a nutshell, ?

[Ythan]

Exactly?

[Ythan]

Let it happen? Considering that you were on the wagon I find it odd that you're criticizing me for that.

[Ythan]

Okay.

[Ythan]

Chau, launching right into the NL vote so immediately, even after asking if there were any objections but before waiting, and now arguing that discussion should perhaps be curtailed as it might somehow inform scum more than town, all of this concerns me.

[Ythan]

Boohoo long sentences.

[Ythan]

No. Did you get that hypothesis out of some kind of reading of my post? I was pretty clearly criticizing Chau for something more specific.

[Ythan]

NL is fine. I have no problem with NL. I have a problem with "Good morning does anyone have a problem with NL? -votes for NL-"

[Ythan]

Are you blind? I'm criticizing behavior of Chau's and you seem to be completely missing the point.

[Ythan]

I'm not so sure.

[Ythan]

Sanxion is scum, by the by. We can no lynch still but tomorrow we'll be lynching Sanxion.

[Ythan]

Lul good response Sanx.

[Ythan]

vote no lynch

[Ythan]

Something else like suddenly no internet. But here I am.

[Ythan]

Carolina block wins it for town then?

[Ythan]

Well we're both Carolinians. I guess I never reset my location after the move.

[Ythan]

AKR voted Sanx and I'm not hammering in this post. I'm not scum.

[Ythan]

If AKR was scum then I think it's pretty clear that he could have gotten me lynched with Sanx.

vote Sanxion

[Ythan]

Good game!

[Ythan]

also, ^5 ythan.

From now on I'm always working with you, Reck, VRK, and Brandi.

[Ythan]

Are you from NC?

[Ythan]

In your defense I'm pretty scummy.