Open 227 - Friends and Enemies

[AKnottedRope]

Hey! Looks like I know... nobody.

Ok then

Vote:ZeroFang

your avatar is creepy

[AKnottedRope]

Mod: Xite is voting scorpion

Fixed.

[AKnottedRope]

wow. good catch there. i didn't even notice that. he jumped off the lead bandwagon without even mentioning it. lets get out of the rvs. my vote stands.

He was the first person on the wagon too. I like my vote as well.

[AKnottedRope]

unvote, vote: a knotted rope

He was the first person to put a vote on ZeroFang, and hasn't commented since. I'd like to see input from him.

wow. good catch there. i didn't even notice that. he jumped off the lead bandwagon without even mentioning it. lets get out of the rvs. my vote stands.

He was the first person on the wagon too. I like my vote as well.

Your argument is invalid

[AKnottedRope]

Also, I'm going to the lake for the weekend, so

V/LA

Until the weekend.

[AKnottedRope]

EBWOP

Also, I'm going to the lake for the weekend, so

V/LA

Until the weekend.

should be "until monday"

Noted.

[AKnottedRope]

Well, I'm back from V/LA and this game got four and a half pages longer. Holy hell.

Give me an hour or two to read through all that's happened since I was gone

[AKnottedRope]

Ok my thoughts.

First: the theory argument between Ythan and DJ over lowell was COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY POINTLESS. Lowell hasn't posted once in this game IIRC, so taking up three pages with wall arguments didn't accomplish anything. (For the record, dj needs to take a stat class, but that's neither here nor there)

Second: I was close to thinking DJ was scum until he said this:

personally, i am calling the discussion "off point"

because its basically a theory argument as opposed to an argument based on whats happened in this game.

but if you feel it is valid then you can continue to push. as you can see, i enjoy the game and will continue to respond if necessary.

(Bolding mine)

Finally someone realizes how stupid it was.

Third: After that, I thought Octopis was scum for this comment:

Well, I voted for him in the RVS stage for a flippant reason (not voting yet, I think) but I was not advocating his lynch.

I only mention it because I don't want it to be misinterpreted as something it isn't

(especially considering the arguments presented already in this game).

(Bolding mine)

Why would town worry about how their arguments are going to be construed, especially if the person doing the misconstruing has been rather discredited by ythan? A scummy fear, but it only gets a

FoS:Octopis

for now.

Fourth: In walks CSL who does an ISO read on DJ and votes him without reading the rest of the thread as far as I can tell. This looks like scum hopping on an easy wagon to me without adding anything to it.

Unvote, Vote: CSL

[AKnottedRope]

I was worried because if you made a bullshit case out of almost nothing in that situation, you might try and pull the same trick on me.

This is why you're scummy.

[AKnottedRope]

Have we ever played together?

Nope, why?

It's not a theory argument, I'm attacking Don.

Would you prefer the term "theory mugging" then?

[AKnottedRope]

btw Lowell still hasn't posted after, as I said earlier, I saw him post in a queue.

Mod: Can you poke Lowell with a sharp stick?

Yup, he's been prodded; if there's no post by the evening he's getting replaced.

[AKnottedRope]

Mod, can we get a prod on Xite as well?

He's on V/LA until Tuesday.

[AKnottedRope]

Also, at least one, but no more than two of {DJ, Lowell, ZeroFang} is mafia

[AKnottedRope]

Just my observation of how votes have been flowing this game. Don't have time to do a full vote analysis, that was just offhand, but I'm fairly certain of it.

[AKnottedRope]

If you want more, then here.

Lowell and zero's actions and vote patterns suggest they are both in one of the informed minorities, be it scum or mason, while yours indicate that you may or may not be in the other. My scum read on the three of you is elevated, so that's why I assumed one of you is scum.

[AKnottedRope]

Also

there are two informed minorities in this game, and towns job is to protect the masons at all costs. regardless of lowell's actual role, i like the bold move he has made as i think it can only help town.

Leads me to believe that you are in the opposite minority of Lowell and Zero.

But that leads to a bit of a problem. If you were mason and Lowell and zero were scum, then why would you unvote Zero after Lowell told you to? I may have just talked myself into voting you. I need to go back and read you and zero in ISO later.

[AKnottedRope]

Unvote, Vote: don_johnson

L-1 if I've counted correctly.

[quote="don_johnson]you also neglect to embrace the idea that i might be masons with lowell and i am just listening to my mason buddy. [/quote]
With what you said above this and with your voting patterns, that's hardly likely.

however, i would rather embrace the wifom generated by lowell's statement, rather than push it to some kind of revealing conclusion as i believe it ultimately serves town's interest more than scums.

The first priority of mine is outing scum, so I embrace "revealing conclusions." Why don't you?

[AKnottedRope]

EBWOP:

Unvote, Vote: don_johnson

L-1 if I've counted correctly.

you also neglect to embrace the idea that i might be masons with lowell and i am just listening to my mason buddy.

With what you said above this and with your voting patterns, that's hardly likely.

however, i would rather embrace the wifom generated by lowell's statement, rather than push it to some kind of revealing conclusion as i believe it ultimately serves town's interest more than scums.

The first priority of mine is outing scum, so I embrace "revealing conclusions." Why don't you?

[AKnottedRope]

Plus don hasn't actually claimed mason yet...so if you actually are a mason and he flips town, you just ousted yourself for no reason. Good job.

This. My forehead hurts from me slapping it with my palm right now.

[AKnottedRope]

smash, xite just hammered don, so your CSL vote didn't do anything

[AKnottedRope]

The case on CSL is as simple as him lurking and then popping up just to place an obviously scummy bandwagon vote.

I suppose if don flips town he's pretty cleared, but otherwise he should die.

Explain the bolded. I think CSL's play is scummy irrespective of don's alignment.

[AKnottedRope]

Hey guys, my grandfather unexpectedly passed away Wednesday, so I'll be posting infrequently until monday. I don't have much time to make a case on anyone, but my suspicion of CSL stands. After everything calms down with my family, I'll try to have more.

Vote:CSL

[AKnottedRope]

So, CSL didn't post much yesterday but still committed to the Don lynch. That's clearly not very positive as a reflection on him, but I would like to hear how your view when you have time for a better post.


Ythan: Thoughts on Don's flip?

Why did you ask that to only Ythan?

[AKnottedRope]

I'll reread tonight, when there is no one infesting the house.

Before you re-read I want an explanation of why you voted don.

Also Ythan, what do you mean don's flip was "pretty unambiguous"

[AKnottedRope]

In response, read this, especially the last paragraph. If you are having difficulty, read it again. If you are still having difficulty, read it backwards.

After that, respond to it.

[AKnottedRope]

Response Uploading...100%

First off, everything I would've said would be exactly the same everyone else said, and last time I checked, I was called scum for stating my reasons why I thought said player was scum.

But you said you did an ISO read on don, was there anything specifically that you pulled from that besides "I agree?" I find it scummy that you just hopped on his wagon. Also, did you even read the rest of the topic before ISOing him?

Also, it was fun reading it backwards. I read it backwards for the lulz.

[AKnottedRope]

Ok, I'm back from my grandparents house, and I'm going to give this game the re-read it deserves.

Also

We all saw the flip. I think it's pretty clear in an open game what it meant.

Well that's a cop-out

[AKnottedRope]

Ok, I've given this game a re-read, and I can't shake the feeling that Ythan is scum. (See: his initial and poorly placed vote on don. See his flippant attitude today. See: his avoiding questions today)

UNVOTE: Csl
VOTE: Ythan[/unvote]

[AKnottedRope]

Effing bah. EBWOP:

UNVOTE: CSL
VOTE: Ythan

[AKnottedRope]

Pardon the triple post, but I just saw something:

However, since Xscorpion flipped mason, would it be a good idea to encourage them to claim. Before you jump down my neck, let me explain my reasoning. In this post Xite hinted at the fact that he might be a mason so he is probably a target for the mafia at night (if he were to die he would leave one mason, rendering them useless because they can't prove their innocence and narrow down the potential scum). Because the scum got lucky last night in their killing of XScorpion it means there are only two masons left which

kinda

suggests they should claim before another one dies and the other then becomes useless.

The things wrong with this are:

1)The masons claiming makes sure they will be killed
2)Even having one mason alive is an asset, as they can still use it to prove themselves town later in the game
3)The bolded wordage above seems like you're leaving a way out of this argument

FoS:Octupis

[AKnottedRope]

Octupis: we know there are three masons and three scum in this game. Any mason who claims and is not counterclaimed is confirmed town, even if they are the last one alive.

[AKnottedRope]

BTW- whoever said Ythan is being flippant has it wrong. If anything, he's less so than usual. I don't think it means anything (or, more to the point, it's as likely to be "VT not caring as much as usual" as "scum trying not to be too aggressive")

Oh, really? Can you link me to an example?

[AKnottedRope]

I figured he would have an example of your play seeing as he made that assertion.

[AKnottedRope]

Considering that your vote on me lacks substance and you're now asking a third party to provide my meta evidence to dispute it I think it's about time you meet your namesake.

I gave my reasons for my vote, but if lowell has meta to dispute part of my reasoning, then I want to see it.

[AKnottedRope]

But how else am I supposed to keep track of who's voting for the dead man?

Fixed.

I lol'd

[AKnottedRope]

V/LA Until tuesday

Noted.

[AKnottedRope]

Ok so. I'm back and reading what I've missed. If CSL is scum, then I would say Xite is too for this post:

Oh shit. Chao I went back to get the case on my reasoning and realized I was mistaking evidence from him in another game for this game... damn damn damn

Unvote

sorry CSL
@Mod please don't hate me for this, it was an honest mistake

The biggest reason that CSL would be scummy in this game is because he still seems to be lurking a bit to me. Yes, I'm suspicious of him, just not convinced he's the scummiest.
Also, I realized that this was the one where Ythan misinterpreted trust into what seemed like it was going to be a one-point case he was going to push. Still not sure if he's going to go further with it, but right now he is actually the scummiest to me.

[AKnottedRope]

Ythan, ZeroFang, CSL, Octupis, chauchaudotcom, AKnottedRope, and Xite91 all voted for Don, which narrows the suspect list to seven. Yes, I'm assuming the scum voted for the easy wagon. For a town aligned player on the list such as myself, this narrows it down to six players. Let's take a look at them.

Are you assuming that all of the scum jumped on the Don wagon here?

[AKnottedRope]

AKnottedRope
I think I'll wait until he comes back from V/LA to comment.

Well I've been back for a while, care to comment?

As for who's scum, I honestly have no idea.

They're all based on gut feelings, hence no conclusive thoughts on who's scum.

When I said I was tempted to vote you, that was mostly for pressure, and it worked. You posted quite a bit.

I'm starting to like zero as scum more and more. This kind of fence-sitting behavior is scummy.

XScorpion, why do you defend Ythan?

Don. Why would you trust XScorpion's meta-read of Ythan? At the time of this post, #125 - did you think XScorpion couldn't be scum, and thus couldn't be lying?

Both of these players are dead

Also, at least one, but no more than two of {DJ, Lowell, ZeroFang} is mafia

Reasoning? Gut?

That was what I felt at the time. In light of Don's flip, that's been blown out of the water.

Aw yes Miyu is here. zlet's lynch Xite!

Actually, let's lynch you, k?

and third to my highly active play in games in which I have been scum.

Seriously? Are you trying to use your own meta to justify both you not being scum and your activity level in this game? Can we lynch Ythan please?

Mod, Can we get a prod on Lowell please? Also Xite asked for a replacement here.

[AKnottedRope]

Because as I've pointed out before, no one has properly explained to me why CSL is 'scummy'. They've pointed out that he lurks and he's annoying but not much else. That and I thought I understood the reasons why he did some of the things he did. But as stated before I'm beginning to doubt my initial read because I have no idea how his recent posts are an attempt to actually play for a town win condition.

As for those three in particular. I've already stated my reasons for suspecting Octu. Smash (or you now) has been bugging me since day one.

Especially the fact that he so easily jumps on all the major bandwagons

Yet CSL jumped on the don wagon without justification. Why does that make Smash scummy and not CSL?

[AKnottedRope]

The reason, however, I didn't find CSL's initial jump on don's wagon scummy is because from my experience in the past scum usually play cautiously.

I used to think that as well, then I played with robocopter in Newbie 962. I don't think that anymore.

It seemed more like he was just trying to get reaction out of people in order to analyze further (but then he didn't really follow up d2 and has been useless since so I'm not sure anymore).

There's no more evidence that would lead you to conclude this than there is for CSL being scum. It sounds like you're answering for him because he's refusing to. Stop that.

[AKnottedRope]

Page 5, post 119 will be of interest to you.

Also, I've got a semi-problem. Tomorrow, I'm leaving for Cape Hatteras for my family's annual week long beach trip, and I won't have any internet access. Would me being V/LA for that long be ok to you guys, or do you want me to be replaced?

[AKnottedRope]

No, that's not going to happen. With your misrep of my justifying my own absence as non-scummy as some attempt by me to clear myself with my own meta

it's much more likely to still be you I think.

I read the bolded as "Wahh, someone voted me, I'm going to put soft threats against him in my posts :humph:"

[AKnottedRope]

If I don't get anyone wanting me to replace,

V/LA until next saturday

Noted.

I thought it had been made clear that hardly anything has actually happened. The first part you quoted me on reflects this. The second further clarifies. The third one is completely unrelated, so I don't understand how it's applicable. Considering the circumstances, I don't think this qualifies as fence sitting.

We've had 17 pages in this game. There's enough here for you to draw conclusions, so my point is valid.

Literally half your posts are notes to the mod and fluff

That's hyperbole

and the other half doesn't say anything of significance to the game

And that's bullshit. I have more posts with content than you do posts in this game.

[AKnottedRope]

Ugh didn't see Ythan's post until just now.

Is this meaningful or are you just going to bullshit? If so I'll talk to Miyu instead because how about actual content yes that sounds good.

Yes, it is meaningful. There have been at least two posts of yours that come to mind claiming you want my lynch, yet I have seen neither a FoS or Vote from you. To me, it looks like soft OMGUS.

[AKnottedRope]

I'm back, did you miss me?

I've re-read what I've missed and have some comments.

First: Sanxion is town, mostly for his persistence in wanting CSL lynched (see especially This post (Number 430)

Second: Octupis is scum. In his Post 371 he defends CSL from Sanxion's case by dismissing it rather than proving it wrong, especially seeing as it was one of the better cases floating around at the time. Also, it takes him until Post 448 to place his first vote since his one on don early in D1, voting CSL because of the deadline. Not only does that look like scum trying to lay low, but also like a last-minute bussing attempt.

Third: In light of CSL's flip, Ythan looks even scummier than before. In post 166, he defends CSL when XScorp called him out on his half-assed read and ISO on don. Then, tells CSL to stop rolefishing to which CSL agrees to without question. This is scum coaching his parter plain and simple. Then, in post 425 (which was made less than 72 hours from deadline, mind you), Ythan STILL claims to need to read CSL. He made like four posts in the entire game, how long does it take to read him?

tl;dr Ythan and Octupis are the last two scum. Game over, town win.
VOTE: Ythan

FoS:Octupis

Also, if anyone could tell me how to make my posts bulleted, that would be great. I spent 30 minutes fumbling with tags and still couldn't figure it out.

[AKnottedRope]

Two dead masons? Should the last one claim?

No, you're not going to out the last mason this early. Sorry. Lynch please.

[AKnottedRope]

Out? You fool, what would scum possibly gain from outing the last mason, now only useful in his ability to be

confirmed as town?

Bolded is why a mason is useful, especially later in the game. Like I said, lynch please.

[AKnottedRope]

Third: In light of CSL's flip, Ythan looks even scummier than before. In post 166, he defends CSL when XScorp called him out on his half-assed read and ISO on don. Then, tells CSL to stop rolefishing to which CSL agrees to without question. This is scum coaching his parter plain and simple. Then, in post 425 (which was made less than 72 hours from deadline, mind you), Ythan STILL claims to need to read CSL. He made like four posts in the entire game, how long does it take to read him?

For your reading pleasure.

[AKnottedRope]

A mason should ideally claim one day before Lylo, as a counterclaim is useful for the town at that point.

[AKnottedRope]

No problem. NOW can we lynch you?

[AKnottedRope]

Okay, in post post 259, I told chau that my top two suspects were Sanxion and CSL.

Saying something and meaning it are two different things.

I was playing devil's advocate because while I was scrutinizing the case on CSL, I still suspected him.

Well, you never displayed it besides saying it offhand.

In regards to your second point, if I had wanted to bus someone whom I had publicly suspected for the entire day, don't you think I would have been more forthright with my convictions and actually bussed him?

Publicly suspected is bs, and I have linked to posts where you publicly DEFENDED CSL yesterday. Once deadline loomed and you realize you couldn't dig your partner out of his hole, you switched your vote.

Also, I think it is unfair to say that I have been laying low, I have been doing my best to post regularly in this game, and have suitably received a fair amount of attention for it too.

What you've been doing is active lurking: posting a lot but saying little. Most of your posts have been vague synopsis of players without any conclusions.

Besides, is there anyone else that you are suspecting or is it just me and Ythan?

Trying to throw me off you and your scumbuddy, eh? Sorry, not working. To answer your question: No, you two are the last two scum, so I'll just suspect you for now on.

[AKnottedRope]

I appreciate that a mason becomes more useful as there are fewer and fewer players in the game, but the chances of a mason surviving that long also decrease with every day and night. Considering on the only two nights we have had, there have been two mason deaths, don't you think the mason should claim now while he or she is still alive and actually useful? What do the rest of you think on this subject?

Just because you've managed to kill two masons in the last two nights doesn't mean you'll be able to kill the third, and we're not going to make it easier for you and out him.

[AKnottedRope]

So? Whats your point?

If you really suspected him, you would have been more vocal about it, I think.

Please quote examples of when I defended CSL. You just have to read the thread to see where I have attacked him.

If you go back and read my initial post today, you will find that I linked to an examplehere.

Not at all, some of the points you made about Ythan look quite interesting. But seriously, how can you be so adamant that me and Ythan, or any two players (for hypothetical arguments sake) are the remaining scum?

Because, after my read in light of CSL's flip, you two stood out as scum.

[AKnottedRope]

I have explained myself on this, please find an actual example of me defending CSL.

No you haven't. What you said in that post and how you've defended yourself don't add up. In the post, you show considerable doubt on the CSL case, trying to throw Sanxion off it.

Quote the passage where I asked for the last mason to claim.

I distinctly remember you saying "Shouldn't the last mason claim, though?" somewhere in the last two pages. CBA to find it.

And about starting with Ythan Vs. Starting with you: I'm fine with lynching either of you, just Ythan annoys me more, so I'd rather lynch him first.

[AKnottedRope]

I guess I'm just not usual, then.

[AKnottedRope]

Now, do you care to have some sort of useful input on this game? Maybe talk about the case I posted against you?

[AKnottedRope]

No you didn't, actually.

[AKnottedRope]

But I'm colorblind

That's really not much.

[AKnottedRope]

So you admit being scum, then?

[AKnottedRope]

Hey oh wonderful mod, can you prod chau, Miyu, and Zero?

Yup.

[AKnottedRope]

Oh right... I did see that post but I forgot about it. Thanks for the bullets tip too.

@ Rope
What are your thoughts on the other players?
If Ythan is scum - you think he would be that sloppy and obvious in regards to his interactions with CSL?
You seem to be a lot more... driven toDay. Why the change in attitude from previous Days?

Zero is neutral, I can't get a read on him. Chau is slight scum due to his answering for CSL yesterday (admittedly after me asking him about it). You're slight town, and Lowell is neutral, but I can't get a good read on you two either.

As for my change in attitude, I got a lot of good reads after CSL's flip, so I became more confident that Ythan and Octupis are scum.

[AKnottedRope]

You also seemed more inclined to vote Ythan over Octopus because he's more annoying, right?

Meh, that's carried over from yesterday when I was certain he was scum, but wasn't sure about anyone else.

I don't understand though because there is clearly not enough information on Ythan in contrast to Octopus.

I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[AKnottedRope]

[quote="Sanxion]Do you think Smash could be scum and Miyu bussed immediately? Why or why not?[/quote]
Maybe, but not likely. I've got a town read on Miyu. [quote=Sanxion]Do you think Zero is town? If so, why write him off as not scum?[/quote]
Actually, after his most recent post in defense of Oct, I'm considering the scumteam to be Oct-Lowell instead of Ythan-Oct. Hm...

Given that, I guess I'll
UNVOTE: Ythan
VOTE: Octupis

[AKnottedRope]

that's what I get for not using the preview button.

Do you think Smash could be scum and Miyu bussed immediately? Why or why not?

Maybe, but not likely. I've got a town read on Miyu.

Do you think Zero is town? If so, why write him off as not scum?

Actually, after his most recent post in defense of Oct, I'm considering the scumteam to be Oct-Lowell instead of Ythan-Oct. Hm...

Given that, I guess I'll
UNVOTE: Ythan
VOTE: Octupis

[AKnottedRope]

Actually, after his most recent post in defense of Oct, I'm considering the scumteam to be Oct-Lowell instead of Ythan-Oct. Hm...

How did Zero's defense of Oct make you switch to a Oct-Lowell judgement?

Because defending someone - especially someone as scummy as oct - is scummy in it's own right.

[AKnottedRope]

Actually, after his most recent post in defense of Oct, I'm considering the scumteam to be Oct-Lowell instead of Ythan-Oct. Hm...

How did Zero's defense of Oct make you switch to a Oct-Lowell judgement?

Waaaaaiiiit shiiit I meant to say Oct-Zero. Damn I need to stop posting while intoxicated.

[AKnottedRope]

Also Oct, how did I not answer your questions?

[AKnottedRope]

Ythan, why are you casting policy votes now?

[AKnottedRope]

In post 479, I asked you who else you suspected, if anyone. You replied in post 480; the problem I have is the way you brushed my question under the carpet just because you think I'm scum. However, when Miyu asks you, you happily oblige. I was just wondering about the apparent double standard.

Because, at the time you asked, I really hadn't considered it.

[AKnottedRope]

Ythan, do you think that anti-town equals scummy?

[AKnottedRope]

I still think that there is a more compelling case on Oct than there is on Lowell, especially given Oct's earlier play this day.

[AKnottedRope]

What do you mean? As far as I can tell, today I have shown your case on me to be complete rubbish and have been asking questions of you and Lowell, but no to real avail because I'm being ignored or being patronized with weak answers.

Neither of these points are true as they apply to me.

By the way, if this isn't deflecting attention off of Lowell and onto me, then I don't know what is. Why is that?

Because I think you have a better chance of being scum than Lowell does. I never really understood the Lowell case, but that could just be me.

Also, why have you not contributed as much in the last two pages (when Lowell came relatively close to being lynched)?

I've been posting just as much as normal, I think.

[AKnottedRope]

Also, why have you not contributed as much in the last two pages (when Lowell came relatively close to being lynched)?

I've also been at band camp these past few days, so that's limiting my access to the nights.

[AKnottedRope]

In post 511, AKR considers the fact that Zero noticed a flaw in his case on me, means that we are a scum team, and that Ythan is now town.

You and zero as a team is a possibility I'm considering. Ythan is also not, by any means, town. He's my number two pick for scum at the moment.

Overall I think AKR's play today has been very suspect, first he claims to have found the scum team as me and Ythan, then it was me and Zero, but when mention of me and Lowell arises, he hardly says anything for two pages.

Because I'm not getting a scum read from him, just anti-town. This differs from you, ythan, and zero as I have gotten good scum reads from the three of you.

You seem to me to be desperate for a lynch, whoever it is, you don't have any faith in your convictions (probably because you cases are fairly weak), and you are opportunistic, apart from when it comes to Lowell. Plus, the connections between yourself and Lowell are building up.

I'm not desperate for a lynch, I just want to lynch you because I think you're scum. I do have faith in my convictions because I'm still voting you and pushing for your lynch. If I were opportunistic, I would be on the lowell wagon.

Also, using connections with me and a living player proves nothing. If lowell flips scum, then sue me.

What a coincidence.

That I don't understand the case on him? Wow :eyeroll:

---

Now tomorrow I leave for away band camp, and I won't have any internet access for a week. I don't feel like me going v/la would be responsible with the level of activity this game is experiencing, so I must

ask the mod to replace me

. After I get back, I'll offer to replace back in this slot if the player replacing me requests it. I thought this game would be long over by now, I apologize.

[AKnottedRope]

I've still yet to see the case on me.

Ythan posted it a few posts ago. The least you could do is look.

[AKnottedRope]

Hey guys! Sorry for not coming back sooner, but I figured that TBM had found a replacement for me so I didn't pay much attention to this game (or mafiascum as a whole). Give me a while to read what's happened so far.

[AKnottedRope]

I don't like the defeatist attitude in the above post. Haven't read enough to form an opinion on Zerofang today, but it could be desperate scum staying alive or something else. Don't like the "now you know I'm town" part either. Is Zero somehow confirmed town?

[AKnottedRope]

Meant to add this: Zero, why are you sure I'm going to vote you? You're at L-1, correct? There's no way I'd hammer without reading everything and discussing a lot.

[AKnottedRope]

Pardon the wall...

In my mind, his constant attacks on chau and Octi pretty much confirm them as town. His lack of attacks (and his agreeing with) AKR makes him the scummiest via connection to Lowell. They've both been really pushing for a Octi lynch. Infact, ISOing AKR reveals that he's been tunneling him since the game began.

Him not attacking me makes me scum? Riiiiight. CSL didn't attack anyone but don, does that make everyone but don scum as well? As for him attacking Oct, I posted the case first. I'm thinking lowell saw an opportunity to push for a lynch and went for it. Also, I have not been pushing for Oct's lynch since the game began! The first suspicion I voiced of him was the beginning of day 3. Huge misrep here.

Anyway, I claim mason. (post)

I believe it.

I would encourage you to read Lowell's ISO #3. Notice who his two top picks for town are. We know Lowell was scum. We know CSL was scum. He seemed to buddy with AKR in that very same manner. Nobody else really fits the bill.

Nobody else fits the bill for scum? That's very much not true.

I couldn't get a read on AKR. He seemed scummy....

These two clauses contradict themselves. Either you can't get a read on me, or you can. People who sit on fences get splinters in their asses.

In my mini ISO of all three of them, it seemed like they generally didn't make cases against each other and instead tended to support each other

That proves absolutely nothing. Living players agreeing with each other isn't scummy.

Okay, I was suspicious of AKR yesterday for various reasons. First, that he was so aggressive in his pursuit of myself anf Ythan as the scum, and then, it was me and Zero. It seemed to me like he was desperate for a lynch, whoever it was. However, when Lowell started coming under scrutiny, AKR suddenly didn't understand the case on him and still wanted me lynched. Couple this with the fact that both Lowell and AKR were the only people voting for me (apart from a small stint by chau), I was suspicious of him. Then there was this post, where Lowell said that AKR and CSL were town, while myself and chau are scum. Since Lowell and CSL have flipped scum, I became more sure. In regards to your point about Lowell framing AKR, chau, I can see it but think it is unlikely because the buddying was as far back as page 10, and they did both bandwagon me yesterday.

I never lost my suspicion of Ythan, and I wasn't desperate for a lynch. I wanted to lynch scum, and I thought you, ythan and zero were most likely. Now that you're confirmed town, you dropped off the list XD.

---

I agree with mostly all of chau's 612. If you happen to be scum, you're doing a damn good job.

---

By the way, connections to scum can be a case by itself if both (or all three) players are involved. I understand you guys don't think AKR is scummy because Lowell went along with whatever he said, but AKR didn't exactly hop on CSL's wagon until it was pretty clear he was going to be lynched anyway.

That's not true AT ALL. I voted him as soon as I came back from V/LA that day, IIRC.

That was Octi, not AKR.

Here is a great example of why your case on me is crap. Oct jumping on the CSL wagon late could be used as a connection between the two of them (in fact, it's a point I used in my case. Admittedly, as I look back on it, that case was crap too.), but Oct is confirmed town. Just because there are connections between me and scum doesn't mean that I am scum.

---

<Zero's "Case">

AKR kept his RV because apparantly I hopped off a RV wagon I started. I don't really care if it's RV and still a valid part of the game. It was a bad reason to vote, and a bad case to get everyone to hop on. I see this as scum looking for an easy lynch. To be honest, I was suspecting chau a bit too for the same reason (though she's pretty cleared, I'll explain later in the post).

What did you want me to do, unvote you and then revote you? That's stupid. It was as good of a case as any at that point in the game, and was much more than you had to offer at that point (you even admitted this earlier by saying your reads were "gut"). Also, if you suspected chau for the same thing, and yet chau is town, then how does this point remain valid against me?

1) Lowell was scum
2) Lowell isn't exactly the best and brightest player out there
3) Lowell defended CSL, who later flipped scum
4) Lowell defended AKR in the same way he defended his other scum buddy
5) Lowell attacked Octipus who is our last mason (i.e. confirmed town)
6) Lowell also attacks chau in roughly the same way he attacked Octipus

None of this is hard evidence. None of it pertains directly to anything I DID this game. So I ask you. What have I directly DONE that is scummy?

Lowell knew that CSL would flip scum inevitably. He apparently believed that he could link chau to scum in this manner. If you needed proof for 2 in the section above, you have it. He also explicitly stated how much he didn't understand the case on CSL despite numerous explanations. More evidence for 2. No more of this "Well, Lowell wouldn't make anything THAT obvious" nonsense. He would, and did make things that obvious.

Wait wait wait. So when lowell tries to link CSL to chau, he's trying to get chau lynched. Yet, when he links CSL to me, we're all scum buddies. Does not compute.

This is the recent and biggest connection between AKR and Octi. Oh, and lets forget how AKR didn't mention Lowell during most of the game, and let's ignore his subtle derailment of Lowell's case (Twice, this time insisting he's anti-town but not scum)

"Oh yeah, if you ignore this, this, this, this, and this; AKR has completely ignored lowell." Right. (Also, I'm assuming you meant to say lowell when you typed octi. Otherwise, this point makes even less sense).

and lets forget that he bussed CSL right out of RVS, much like a scum would do to try and eliminate connections to other scum buddies.

Wait, earlier you were calling me scum for hopping on the CSL wagon late, and now you're calling me scum for hopping on the CSL wagon early. You can't have it both ways.

This is a far cry, but he tried to get me lynched early, and made This post stating Lowell and I were probably on the same team. Interestingly enough, if we had believed him and one of us had flipped, it would be golden for the scum. Lowell would be confirmed townie if I died, and I'd be confirmed scum if Lowell died. Either way, it would help the scum. I really can't see how his reasoning could be interpreted from a townie perspective.

Wow that's reaching. Like Mr. Fantastic reaching. Also, seeing as I think you're scum, my early prediction might come true. Might as well nominate me for a scummy now

I find it very scummy how the only cases he was millitant about have been against CSL (he seemed 100% sure CSL was scum. WAY too sure)

And really, at this point I'm convinced AKR is scum nearly enough to just say go ahead and lynch me so you know you can trust me.

You're really good at that contradicting yourself thing, aren't you? Also, how was I "too sure" that CSL was scum? I suspected him and voted him. Whup dee doo.

That's also why I'm not too terribly concerned with my defense. Scum hunting > defending yourself, always.

AKR's back. I'm guessing he'll do something along the lines of OMGUS and vote me.

Unfortunately chau, you've eliminated the possibility that I'm actually town in your mind so solidly that you've dismissed everything that my town flip might imply. AKR is undoubtedly going to vote me, so I might as well be dead already. The time to start thinking about the implications is right now, and I mean seriously think about them. Half your argument defending AKR was that you thought I was opportunistic scum. Now that you know I'm town, rethink my argument. It might just save this god forsaken town.

From martyr to defeatist in two pages. Nice.

</Zero "case".>

That's as far as I'm going to get tonight and still remain coherent. At the moment, I'm leaning on Zero being scum (and I swear, if you call it OMGUS, I'm going to deliver a swift kick to your gonads). Also, I don't like Ythan's lack of content so far, so he's still pinging my scumdar as well.

[AKnottedRope]

If he flips scum, then he's the last scum. If he flips town, connections are irrelevant.

[AKnottedRope]

To me, you're scummy irrespective of zero, if that's what you're asking about.

[AKnottedRope]

Ok, I've read the remainder of today, and I don't feel the need to comment on it seeing as most of what I would say would be redundant. I'm prepared to hammer zero after he posts again in response to my questions if no one objects.

[AKnottedRope]

I'm prepared to hammer zero after he posts again in response to my questions if no one objects.

Why puss out and wait till I comment if you already have your mind made up?

It's bad form to hammer someone without them posting a response in my opinion, even if they are the last lynch in the game.

[AKnottedRope]

God Does Not Play Vote Counts:

ZeroFang (2): chauchaudotcom, Sanxion
AKnottedRope (1): ZeroFang
Sanxion:
chauchaudotcom:
Ythan:
Octupis:

With 6 Alive it's 4 to lynch.

According to this, my vote would not be a hammer, but would put him at L-1. Is this correct, or is someone voting him and is not showing up here?

[AKnottedRope]

Pardon the triple post, need to work on that, but

I'm fine answering, I just don't see the point in waiting if AKR already made up his mind.

If you were town, you would see the point.

[AKnottedRope]

Day one, your 7th post. Your next post, 17 minutes later.

I also have a separate post to make to show you just how blatantly obvious Octi's mason status was if you're looking for it.

I picked up a hint of it day one, but I never consolidated it. Had I been mason hunting, I would have found out why.

I voiced suspicion of him early in the game. Woo Hoo, doesn't mean I've been pushing for his lynch the entire game. Also, the bolded is ironic, seeing as you didn't know he was a mason today.

Ok really, wtf is this? You're trying to make a case on me, but at the same time you seem not to have much confidence in it at all. You're also complementing me on my performance if I'm scum? Why the hell would you do that? I'd say getting everyone to suspect me is exactly the opposite of what a good scum performance is.

This post... it's as if you acknowledge that your case against me isn't very strong but are trying to get me lynched anyway. Do I even need to say it?
(I'll tell you anyway: It's scummy)

Please learn to read. I was telling CHAU that I agreed with his post, and that if CHAU happened to be scum, he was doing a good job. I don't think he is, I think he's pro-town.

Of course. I forgot to take in to account that you're trying really hard to look town. Instead of a simple "I'm actually not voting you yet" you chose to take the mafia highground. Pro-tip: 1-uping me doesn't make you look town. It makes you look like you're trying to get everyone to read you as such.

Nice mud slinging, but I was being sincere in so far as I had no intention to vote you without reading what had been said today.

Actually, this was a mistake on my part in a quick post meant avoid prod until the next day. I didn't research it, I recalled it from memory. I had a case that was half ready at the time and it would be too late if I waited to post until I completed it. For all intents and purposes, it's irrelevant.

Way to selectively edit. What you quoted was only part of my explanation.

The first was from memory in a quick post, the second was from reading over the thread again in my researched post.

Regardless, you're still twisting facts to paint me as scum, regardless of what they are.

And these quotes contradict each other because...

because you said I was scummy for being "so sure" that CSL was scum, yet you then say that you're very sure that I'm scum.

You were on his case with little evidence, and pushed for it militantly. He was scum. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Little evidence?? He did a blatant half-assed read and iso, and used that without any other justification to vote don. And I was far from the most vocal supporter of the CSL wagon, that was XScorp if I recall correctly.

Vote: Zerofang

die scum die.

[AKnottedRope]

Oh look at what i found reading earlier in the game

Also, the Zero case is nowhere, and pointless. He's town. More later when I reread. It's now bookmarked, so I won't lose it again.

He called you town. By your reasoning, that makes you scum, right?

(post)

ISO 10: First part not so much, but the second is again commenting strong opinions on how the masons do things.

(post v2)

Read this post. He seems a little too confident CSL isn't a mason.

(post v3)

These quotes just show octupis slightly breadcrumbing mason. The fact that you found these hints and pointed them out proves that you've been trying to identify the masons all game.

[AKnottedRope]

According to the vote count, my vote wasn't the hammer. If I recall correctly, however, I saw sanxion vote for him as well. I'll go check.

[AKnottedRope]

Yep, he did in [url=http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2451347]Post 647[/quote] in the middle of a paragraph. My vote is the hammer. So zero, you can go ahead and admit to being scum now.

[AKnottedRope]

EBWOQ

Yep, he did in Post 647 in the middle of a paragraph. My vote is the hammer. So zero, you can go ahead and admit to being scum now.

[AKnottedRope]

Zero, I've hammered you. you can go ahead and admit to being scum.

[AKnottedRope]

Go ahead, zero.

[AKnottedRope]

Effing. If Zero isn't scum I'm sad. Because I can't figure out for the life of me why someone would leave Oct alive. =/

QFT

I really hope this is the end of the game and zero is just effing with us.

[AKnottedRope]

Zero, if I were scum, I wouldn't have pulled that gambit on you. I'm fairly obv town at this point.

[AKnottedRope]

I agree with the above. 33% chance of catching scum > 25% chance of catching scum.

Vote: No Lynch

(Last time I voted for no lynch, there was a game mechanic that I didn't foresee and I ended up losing the game for us. I don't think that'll happen here haha)

[AKnottedRope]

However, we can still use today to discuss. I'm leaning on Ythan being the last scum, with sanxion possible. Ythan mostly for his lack of content yesterday. He just let the zero lynch happen without saying anything about it.

[AKnottedRope]

I'm not criticizing the lynch for happening, I'm criticizing you not adding anything to it. I'd be fine if you actually said anything with content yesterday, but you really didn't.

[AKnottedRope]

Ythan, do you think NL is a bad idea?

[AKnottedRope]

The way your post was phrased seemed like you did. "The way you launched into the NL vote immediately... all of that concerns me" implied that everything you said was a concern.

[AKnottedRope]

I don't have a problem with that because it's L-3 (or NL-3?). If someone had a problem with it, she could unvote.

[AKnottedRope]

I'm not missing the point, but whatever.

[AKnottedRope]

This thread needs more posts by sanxion.

Mod, can you give a gentle prod to Sanxion?

[AKnottedRope]

Sanxion, there are some pages on the wiki that discuss them. I can't find the right ones, but these two touch on it a bit. The idea is that the town's win percentage increases in lylo as the ratio between town and scum decreases. For instance, if there are 3 town and 1 scum, there is a 25% chance of finding scum if guessing randomly. If we no lynch and the mafia kill, the numbers tomorrow will be 2 town and 1 scum, increasing our win percent to 33% if guessing randomly.

[AKnottedRope]

If you are town:
1. You know you are town.
2. You have a town read on someone.
3. You are going to focus on the remaining players regardless. (50/50)

But if we go into tomorrow and someone dies who we don't have a town read on, it narrows down our suspect list. NL is the proper play for today, IMHO.

[AKnottedRope]

^ You're going to have to agree with someone you suspect to get real scum either way. It takes a unanimous town vote no matter what we are in.

I think you just proved why NL is the proper town play.

[AKnottedRope]

I say just no lynch. Anything else we say is just going to help scum make their kill tonight.

[AKnottedRope]

more NL votes, please.

[AKnottedRope]

um, yeah I am AKR...?

[AKnottedRope]

Alright, I know who I think is scum, and I've got my post against them typed out. Before I post it, I want to know who sanxion thinks is scum.

[AKnottedRope]

Ok thank you sanxion. Here's the post I wrote. It's not long, and it's rather stream-of-consciousness, but it explains my position.

"Ok, so I've thought a lot about this game in the past few hours. At first, I had no doubt that Ythan was scum, seeing as he's the player I had picked as scum for most of this game. But then I got to thinking about it and now I'm not so sure. First, sanxion's play two days ago seemed opportunistic. See especially his Post 600 where he heartily agrees with chau's case on zero, yet doesn't vote him for fear of "votes piling on too fast" (for the record, had he voted there, he would have been only the second person on the zero wagon and it would have put him at L-2, very safe from a lynch). This, coupled with his soft support of lynching yesterday leads me to believe that sanxion is our last scum. "

I needed Sanxion to voice his suspicions before I posted this so that his suspicions wouldn't have been tampered. As it is, Sanxion made a case against the player that he figured that I would be most likely to vote today.

[AKnottedRope]

Sanxion, your appeal to emotion is making you look even scummier.

also this

isn't very strong in contrast to the evidence against Ythan.

and this

Eh, there's nothing too solid on him but the circumstantial evidence alone stacks up pretty heavily against him.

are contradictory.

[AKnottedRope]

Also

they're the same thing right?

No they're not. Your soft support of a lynch yesterday is different because it was MYLO, meaning proper town play would have been to No Lynch (which we did).

[AKnottedRope]

This thread needs more Ythan.

[AKnottedRope]

Meh...

Mod, I know it's early to prod, but could you send a mail to Ythan stating that the last day has started?

[AKnottedRope]

No activity in 24 hours......

[AKnottedRope]

wut?

[AKnottedRope]

Oh hey! That works. Well, I'm ready to vote sanxion if you are. I hope to god i'm right.

[AKnottedRope]

Actually voting would be helpful >.<

VOTE: Sanxion

[AKnottedRope]

Well, I'm town. Sanxion? Ythan?

[AKnottedRope]

Woo hoo I called it right in the end! :3

[AKnottedRope]

also, ^5 ythan.

[AKnottedRope]

I didn't know there were so many NC scummers. Cool.

[AKnottedRope]

I think this is the game that I should have learned the most from, but I'm not sure I really learned anything except that I'm a terrible scummer.

/rant about Lowell and AKR

Haha you're not bad at all! You can't expect to be 100% all the time. Look at who I called scum at the beginning of day three (I think): One was a mason, and one was the other VT in Lylo.