Open 346: L.O.V.E.R.S. Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Empking's Alt]

/confirm

[Empking's Alt]

Vote; Chk

- Y U NO CONFIRM?

[Empking's Alt]

Vote: pinkfloyd

for being a troll.

I can get behind this.

Unvote, Vote: Pink

[Empking's Alt]

I'm not a troll, I'm just really silly!

Seriously if you guys are angry at Tyler, the creator lyrics don't go on the internet ever

My problem is the lack of vote.

[Empking's Alt]

What kinda music do you like Emp?

All sorts.

[Empking's Alt]

Seriously, this game is dragging. I think my vote is in the right place and Emp is cheating on me even though it's his other account. </3

I'd vote PF if I didn't think he was town.

EA, thomas: read on pink?

You've got solid reads?

[Empking's Alt]

I wouldn't call them solid by any means, but I've got reads.

You don't?

Only slight.

Unvote, Vote: Thomas

[Empking's Alt]

Unvote, Vote: Pads

- Lynch All Lurkers

[Empking's Alt]

Curious, though, that you chose me as the inactive to lynch and not the person without so much as a confirmation post. A small difference, to be sure, but given the two I know who I'd choose.

I looked at activity overview.

Chk: Let's lynch all lurkers. That's how you win these games.

1. BST
2. Lynching All Lurkers
3. Great set up.

[Empking's Alt]

SigmaEXE003 is a bigger lurker considering he hasn't even posted in the thread or confirmed here

Also, known as not lurking. That was a terrible vote.

Vote: Pink

- L-1

[Empking's Alt]

SigmaEXE003 is a bigger lurker considering he hasn't even posted in the thread or confirmed here

VOTE: SigmaEXE003 for hatin' on my swag

You're killing me, smalls. Come up with at least one legitimate read for me.

Thomas, Pads, Emp: you're confident in pinkscum?

Pretty confident.

[Empking's Alt]

===[]

[Empking's Alt]

Want to actually add something useful emp?

That is useful. These "arguments" and "discussions" are a waste of time at the moment.

[Empking's Alt]

Okay well what discussion would you propose?

What did you eat today? Do you have a favorite snack? Do you like your countries current leader? Did you get the role of mafia scum? Are you pro legalization of marijuana? Do you have any hobbies? Do you play any other games?

I support the discussion of when you're getting lynched.

[Empking's Alt]

Unvote, Vote: Sygma

[Empking's Alt]

No.The mod is on top of things. Sigma is almost certain to be replaced. Why lynch that and risk being left with near-zero information if we're wrong? (PPE: See?)

Cos we won't be wrong.

[Empking's Alt]

so...that Sigma guy is scummy, ain't he?

[Empking's Alt]

The fact thast Andre isn't dead makes it pretty darn clear he's scum.

[Empking's Alt]

So, it's not the case where 3 townies followed the scumminess and found scum. All that's left is that 3 townies randomly landed on a scum wagon or that Andre is not scum. I don't need to think twice about that to decide which it most likely is.

The best strategy in Lovers is to randomly land on a scumwagon. As you know we first went on the PF wagon to make it clear that he was unambiguously town. Now we're on Andre where he's been made obvious unambiguously scum.

[Empking's Alt]

I feel like I don't understand what you mean by unambiguously town/scum, and I know I don't understand what specifically earned anyone in this game those labels.

Pink had everyone (but Pink) willing to lynch him. Therefore he is town.
Scum are not willing to lynch Andre. Therefore he is scum.

[Empking's Alt]

I think do.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Empking's Alt

Empking, are you actually going to do anything in this game than call for hammers on anyone that gets to L-1? Why exactly is André scum? Because nobody has jumped in and hammered? Don't you think it could just be town not wanting to make an impulsive decision?

This is a troll right? Town players do not make all the descisions. Unless you're calling both me and Pink the scum (and it has to be both of us) then that's clearly not a possible explaination since you're not explaining what scum are doing.

That precedent was established when nobody hammered pinkfloyd despite you calling for a hammer.

Nobody hammered straight away more like. You yourself said "I'm getting more willing to hammer so we reach a lynch", were you lying?

Has André committed any scumtells or are you judging solely on others' reactions towards him and the wagon on him?

Reactions towards him.

[Empking's Alt]

That precedent was established when nobody hammered pinkfloyd despite you calling for a hammer.

Nobody hammered straight away more like. You yourself said "I'm getting more willing to hammer so we reach a lynch", were you lying?

What, when did I say that? I only have two posts in the game so far. Neither have expressed an immediate desire to lynch.

Post 66

[Empking's Alt]

I think do.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Empking's Alt

Empking, are you actually going to do anything in this game than call for hammers on anyone that gets to L-1? Why exactly is André scum? Because nobody has jumped in and hammered? Don't you think it could just be town not wanting to make an impulsive decision?

This is a troll right? Town players do not make all the descisions.

I'm aware, but you're presenting the dilemma in such a way that a lack of hammer is incriminating. I can imagine there is plenty of motivation for scum NOT to hammer a hypothetical town-André - here's one; scum hammers André-town, who do you think is going to be looked at most severely the next day? The deeper you are on the wagon, the more reasoning you typically need. It's a perfectly valid scum-move not to hammer every possible opening you get, especially if you can get a townie to do it (which is more than possible if you're scum - I tend to agree that pinkfloyd is town).

If André is scum, who's his partner then?

1. You're changing your argument.
2. I's guess Pads was the partner but I don't really care. My difficulty of picking one is based on too many suspects rather than too few.

[Empking's Alt]

That precedent was established when nobody hammered pinkfloyd despite you calling for a hammer.

Nobody hammered straight away more like. You yourself said "I'm getting more willing to hammer so we reach a lynch", were you lying?

What, when did I say that? I only have two posts in the game so far. Neither have expressed an immediate desire to lynch.

Post 66

Erm, that was chkflip who said that. Why are you holding me to his words?

[/quote]

Do you have a different alignment from him? The question being discussed was whether you (Chk) were lying after all.

1. You're changing your argument.
2. I's guess Pads was the partner but I don't really care. My difficulty of picking one is based on too many suspects rather than too few.

What do you think of Thomas' play so far?

No real thoughts.

[Empking's Alt]

Do you have a different alignment from him? The question being discussed was whether you (Chk) were lying after all.

Lying about what??

Why the double "??"?

Lying about getting more willing to hammer Pink. To argue that Pink wouldn't have been hammered (as you sorta were) is arguing that Chk (you) was lying.

Ahnd to your second point: No, I honestly don't know why you're trying to lead the town up the garden path (I think we'd both agree that your essential argument that me and Thomas are scum because Pads has an "analytical" playstyle is beneath you) but I think our main concern should be to play Lovers and try to win rather than try for the sanctification of calling the scum team and risk losing. I have next to no interest in trying to lynch Andre's partner.

This is overly simplistic to the point of being scummy. The notion that scum will simply insta-hammer a town wagon can not possibly be real.

Quote where I said the "insta-hammer" bit.

[Empking's Alt]

It's implied by you suggesting that because Andre is alive at L-1 for five days he must be scum, because if he was town, a scum would have hammered.

Emphasis on "five days". The notion that scum will simply take a free mislynch can not possibly be denied.

[Empking's Alt]

Lying about getting more willing to hammer Pink. To argue that Pink wouldn't have been hammered (as you sorta were) is arguing that Chk (you) was lying.

Ahnd to your second point: No, I honestly don't know why you're trying to lead the town up the garden path (I think we'd both agree that your essential argument that me and Thomas are scum because Pads has an "analytical" playstyle is beneath you) but I think our main concern should be to play Lovers and try to win rather than try for the sanctification of calling the scum team and risk losing. I have next to no interest in trying to lynch Andre's partner.

The "precedent" was established when there was opportunity to hammer but wasn't taken. When one was possibly coming you removed that possibility. Scum aren't going to hammer without reason in this setup, and that would have likely crystalised for scum and affected how they approached the Andre wagon after pinkfloyd's wagon collapsed (assuming he is town).

The death of an innocent and putting us to LyoL is reason enough. Any argument that people would attack such a slow hammer and they'd fall under suspicion is honestly laughable. Pink and I would have turned round and gone "When we kept him at L-1 for five days and frequently called for a hammer we were just trolling!"

How am I leading the town up the garden path?

Look at the brackets after I said that. A more objectionable is you trying to create a pool of three lynchables that have at most one scum in them.

Figuring out possible connections is super important. The main reason why I don't think Andre is scum is listed in 115. His only possible partner from my perspective is Pads and I just don't see it. Do you disagree with me ruling out the other players with Andre?

"Thomas as scum with André as well, given that he voted Thomas in his first post into the game, putting him on L-2, which was essentially his choice of counterwagon to his own lynch." is a really horrid reason. And obviously I disagree about your implied reason for clearing yourself.

If, in this hypothetical, someone had come in and hammered, and Andre flipped town, are you going to say that the hammerer is completely unsuspicious?

Yes. This is because that is an unarguable accurate statement of fact.

[Empking's Alt]

How am I leading the town up the garden path?

Look at the brackets after I said that. A more objectionable is you trying to create a pool of three lynchables that have at most one scum in them.

Do you actually think I'm scum? I want you to come out and declare it if so, rather than coyly slinging mud to discredit me without having to justify your accusations. Why don't you believe these are my genuine thoughts?

If you honestly think that Pads having an analytical playstyle makes him town then that is very worrying about the games you mod.
I am honestly unsure of your alignment (As I said when I made the garden path argument). Chk played in a very town manner and you're playing as if being scummy is going out of fashion.

"Thomas as scum with André as well, given that he voted Thomas in his first post into the game, putting him on L-2, which was essentially his choice of counterwagon to his own lynch." is a really horrid reason. And obviously I disagree about your implied reason for clearing yourself.

Why is this a horrid reason? If Andre was scum, he would be heavily focused on getting the wagon from himself removed. Why would he place his vote on his buddy? In the event his wagon collapses, it just makes it increasingly likely his buddy will become the new option.

Honestly I misunderstood the reason you gave. I suppose I'll grant you that the two players you want to lynch are almost certainly both town.

[Empking's Alt]

Honestly I misunderstood the reason you gave. I suppose I'll grant you that the two players you want to lynch are almost certainly both town.

So, you think Thomas is almost certainly town now? You had no real read on him before. Is he town purely because of the connection between scum-Andre and Thomas? What if Andre is town? What does that say about Thomas?

Andre isn't town. It is a waste of time to speculate about what-ifs.

[Empking's Alt]

Do it. Just for me. Put yourself into some sort of crazy parallel universe where Andre is town.

If Andre is town then Thomas could be scum but is less scummy than you and Pads.

[Empking's Alt]

What do you think about Thomas basically admitting to sitting on an RVS vote on pinkfloyd without having a read on him and okay with him being hammered? Especially now that you think he is town. How on earth is that town play?

Since it was 1. What I was doing 2. Helping with what I was doing. It was very helpful since it helped confirm Pink as town (and thus town play).

Thomas would be less scummy than you since he isn't trying to con people in having a town read on Pad.

[Empking's Alt]

Thomas would be less scummy than you since he isn't trying to con people in having a town read on Pad.

He isn't doing anything at all, though.

"BUT HOOPLA, HE'S NOT DOING ANYTHING

BAD

! AND BY BAD, I MEAN DISAGREEING WITH MY NARROW VIEW OF THE GAME!"

And so on...

~ I don't have a town read on Pads - he's one of three people I will lynch today. I'm not lynching myself, pinkfloyd or Andre. Thomas, and you to a lesser extent are scummier than Pads. I've already explained why - take it or leave it.

Yes and I've chosen to leave it. I think you're the one who pressured me for answers. Am I wrong about that?


To solve your reason for Pad's being town though

Magister Ludi: Did you generate the role list randomly?

[Empking's Alt]

You're implying that I'm trying to con people into reading Pads as town.

B

[Empking's Alt]

You're implying that I'm trying to con people into reading Pads as town.

B

Because you quite clearly are. Your argument is fundamentally stupid. But we'll see if it was a deliberate con if you still go along with it when ML gives his answer.

[Empking's Alt]

Magister Ludi: Did you generate the role list randomly?

1. Magister Ludi isn't our mod.
2. This has zero relevance to the game. What are you playing at here?

He might not be your mod!

Honest: Did you generate the role list randomly?

2. Pads is the townies of your lynchpool because "Pads' posts are the towniest". Why? It can only be because "he seems a lot more collected and analytical". The question has 100% relevance to the game.

Why would I want to con people into thinking Pads is town? This implies you think I'm scum with him, which obviously can't be true according to you when you think Andre is 100% confirmed scum. So, that means at least one of Pads and I must be town. If I'm town (which I am), then why would I con people? If I'm scum, then it wouldn't be conning, as it would be truthful.

Your argument makes zero sense.

1. You asked me to imagine a world where Andre was town.
2. Gambits (if you're town) sucking up to him (if you're scum)
3. You could be scum and I could very well be falling for your super gambit where you're trying to make you look like you're buddies with Pads so town votes for him.

[Empking's Alt]

Magister Ludi: Did you generate the role list randomly?

1. Magister Ludi isn't our mod.
2. This has zero relevance to the game. What are you playing at here?

He might not be your mod!

Honest: Did you generate the role list randomly?

2. Pads is the townies of your lynchpool because "Pads' posts are the towniest". Why? It can only be because "he seems a lot more collected and analytical". The question has 100% relevance to the game.

The "2" point was actually in relation to your bolded statement. Role order has nothing to do with how you should be generating reads.

Don't troll, its unethical. What's "role order" when its at home?

His thoughts are largely in line with mine though, which is often a relevant insight into someone's alignment, as knowing I am town, it means he is either town and agrees with me or is probably distancing with who his partner is. Both are fine scenarios by me.

Your three main thoughts:
a. Pink is probably town.
b. Andre is probably town.
c. Thomas is the scummiest.

a. At the time of giving your read on Pads, Pads was voting Pink.
b. You're right he does agree with you! But since you went on to say that if Andre was scum it'd be with Pads this means essentially nothing. [You think Andre is town because Pads is town. You think Pads is town because you think Andre is town and Pads agrees.]
c. Pads was not voting Thomas when you gave your reads. He is not voting Thomas now.

[Empking's Alt]

Don't troll, its unethical. What's "role order" when its at home?

What the hell? You're accusing Honest Abel of non-random distribution of roles?? I've never seen a mod do that and even if they did, how would you know? And THEN, even if you knew that role distribution wasn't random, you're still guessing who the mod decided to give the roles to. This has zero game relevance.

Don't troll.

1. Answer the question.
2. No. Y

[Empking's Alt]

Don't troll, its unethical. What's "role order" when its at home?

What the hell? You're accusing Honest Abel of non-random distribution of roles?? I've never seen a mod do that and even if they did, how would you know? And THEN, even if you knew that role distribution wasn't random, you're still guessing who the mod decided to give the roles to. This has zero game relevance.

Don't troll.

1. Answer the question.
2. No. You know I'm not. Your saying Pads had to be town based on "he seems a lot more collected and analytical" then you had to have been arguing that Honest distributed roles by non-random distribution.
3. I'm not unvoting Andre however much you try and make me.

PEdit: The question you quoted naturally.

[Empking's Alt]

PEdit: The question you quoted naturally.

I have NO IDEA why you're asking the mod if he gave out the roles randomly. But I'm pretty sure it has no game relevance. Can you explain that to me please??

Hey, how about you answer the question: What's "role order" when its at home?

Essentially, you argued that Pads was town because of playstyle (unless I made a mistake in #154). That relied on you saying Honest distributed roles non-randomly. It seems to me that if Honest Abel confirmed that he distributed roles randomly then you'd have to change your professed read on Pads, if you didn't then you'd have to be scum.

[Empking's Alt]

I don't even know what that question means. You mean, what's role order when it's rigged? Is that what that expression means (I've not heard it before - not native speaker)?

What's role order?

1. Was I wrong in post 154? I 100% want an answer.
2. Playstyle is not indicative of alignment if roles were give randomly. Yes or no?

[Empking's Alt]

2. Playstyle is not indicative of alignment. I'M NOT SAYING PADS IS TOWN THOUGH FFS. I'm saying YOU and THOMAS are scummy, ergo Pads' posts are the towniest. How many times do I need to explain this?

OK. Let's drop that. (So the answer to your question is: Once.)

Other than being scummy what have we done that's scummy?

Also, what does "His thoughts are largely in line with mine though, which is often a relevant insight into someone's alignment, as knowing I am town, it means he is either town and agrees with me or is probably distancing with who his partner is. Both are fine scenarios by me." mean if it apparently doesn't mean Pads is town OR that his thoughts are largely in line with your's?

[Empking's Alt]

Did you read my thoughts in 115? There's a good chunk in that wall on you and Thomas.

If they weren't scum, surely scum would take advantage of these players? But they haven't, which makes it likelier that scum is sitting in that pool.

Seriously, Thomas (at most) has collected two votes, but has barely come under pressure for his super scummy reaction towards being questioned about his pinkfloyd vote. WHY HAS NOBODY GONE AFTER HIM FOR THAT? Why has the town let Empking throw down L-1 votes all over the place and calling for hammers with little to no reason? Again, you'd think scum would have capitalised on this by now.

In these situations, there is such a difference in the atmosphere around them - as a townie, there are two scum and three townies looking for scummy things to pick up on and in the instance of Empking or Thomas being town, all five of those players are paring over their play, and two of those players (scum) will gladly pounce on anything they can interpret as scummy. This hasn't happen though.

So consider the alternate scenario; Empking or Thomas being scum. This makes four townies and one scum now looking at their play, with one player (their scumbuddy) wanting to IGNORE anything scummy they do, and no scum their to twist things where possible. To me, THIS scenario seems a lot more likely for players like Empking and Thomas, given they've collected very low levels of suspicion towards them, when I feel like they should have more.

Literally all saying that we were scummy for being scummy. As I asked and you refused to answer: Other than being scummy what have we done that's scummy?

Also, it means Pads is either town, or Pads-scum is bussing you/Thomas. That's why both scenarios are fine.

So "His thoughts are largely in line with mine though, which is often a relevant insight into someone's alignment," means "it means Pads is either town, or Pads-scum is bussing you/Thomas." I don't quite follow the train of thought.

[Empking's Alt]

It's the exact same reasoning you use on Andre. You expect scum to hammer him if he were town. Well, I expect scum to vote you and Thomas if you were town. But getting a wagon on you guys doesn't seem easy at the moment.

No it isn't.
My logic: Andre had been up for five days with noone calling for a hammer. Therefore he is scummy.
Your logic: Me and Thomas are scummy. [Blah blah to hide your bullshitting] Therefore we are scummy.

Do you honestly not see the flaw in your reasoning? I've boiled it down to you to the bare essentials.

Thomas: Why am I scum?

(Your logic in full is:
Your logic: Me and Thomas are scummy. Scum would take advantage of that if both of us were town. Therefore we are scummy.)

[Empking's Alt]

That last paragraph is to Hoopla not Thomas.

[Empking's Alt]

#

Vote Count 1.13

• Empking's Alt
  (2/4)
  : Pads, Thomas
  
• André
  (2/4)
  : Empking's Alt, pinkfloyd
  
• Thomas
  (2/4)
  : André, Hoopla

Four days left to reach a consensus!

That makes no sense btw.

(Actually it means that either scum hasn't had time to react (AKA Andre) or that they're not under pressure AKA we should not lynch EA or Thomas because if they're scum they're scum with Andre.)

Prediction: Andre votes me in his next largish post.

[Empking's Alt]

Prod Andre please.

Not scum with Andre.

Pink: What do you think about Pads? Its Pads - Andre OR Pads-Hoopla to my mind.

[Empking's Alt]

You all need to stop voting Thomas.

I recommend Empking votes.

My play in this game has been really bad so why are you so sure I'm town? You must be scum.

Who's up for lynching André?

[Empking's Alt]

I also note a lack of that "Lynch All Lurkers" stuff from Empking and Hoopla(chkflip) in regards to Pinkfloyd, who is obviously lurking.

Because we did that before and now he's obviously town.

[Empking's Alt]

Welcome to the game, vijay. The thread is short, so hopefully you can have some thoughts for us soon. The game needs an injection of thoughts and ideas.

No it doesn't. It needs people to dig their legs in and vote Andre.