Open 387: Jungle Republic (Day 6 - ends in a Town Victory)

[asher1611]

Posting to say hello. Also showing my patriotism by voting for LBJ.

Vote LBJ

.

Will answer the questions when I get a chance.

[asher1611]

1. Do you like Tangents?
Depends on the tangent to be honest.

2. Who's ID do you like the most in this game appart from yourself?
Drmyshotgun

3. Who would you rather be, Mafia or Werewolf?
Mafia in that I don't have to worry about whether I'm undressed when I go out at night.

4. Who would you rather be, Seer or Townie, or Scum?
Townie: behold the power of the little guy.

5. Do you love WIFOMs?
I don't drink wine, so I guess the answer is no?

6. Who would you most want to be partners with when you are scum in this game?
I don't know anyone in this game. So I'll say Dick Cheney.

7. Chocolates or Apples?
Chocolate

8. Maths or English?
English

9. The Dark Knight or Avatar?
Dark Knight and it's not even close

10. How many times have you played on this site so far (include the ongoing games during the crash)?
Once

11. Who do you think will win this game?
Town due to the night kill restriction on mafia.

[asher1611]

ashers scum lol

Nope, but I do hope you were able to get your Jump to Conclusions mat on discount. They've been around for quite awhile.

[asher1611]

11. Who do you think will win this game?
Town due to the night kill restriction on mafia.

I Didnt realise mafia dont have a nk... I assumed both did.

I checked and lo and behold they dont. But Wolves do...

Its funny, he thinks town win because mafia have kill restriction but does not account for the wolf kill this is important because

it shows he did not read the front page

he realised maf didnt have kill because he is one.

He is pesimistic scum.

I could say the same about you not realizing mafia didn't have a NK. Or was that info you were hoping to slip by the town's attention?

I didn't think I had to recite the whole rule post in a full sentence answer.

See how easy that was. RQS is useless.

Oh wait, this is you in your own words. So you're just trying to drum up noise and point the finger at whoever is most convenient. I see.

FOS Slandaar

[asher1611]

That's actually a great point. VOTE: asher

I'm sorry, I missed the great point in the vapid series of posts trying make something out of nothing and making contradictory arguments throughout the thread thus far.

[asher1611]

You were not being logical.

Incorrect. I was answering the question asked. The question was who I think wins. My answer was town. My reasoning was because one scum faction, the mafia, does not have a night kill. There is no logical flaw in the statement. Your leaps of logic and lack of reading comprehension, on the other hand, could use some serious work.

For someone who said RSQ is useless you're certainly building a mountain out of it.

[asher1611]

asher earned scumpoints off the bat for doing nothing but answering questions in the first post, but that is a null tell at the moment if anything.
while i am looking over asher #76 seems that it could be a confused townie? i don't know but answering a quote that is not meant for you can be done by townies, but it is also easy to pull as scum.

Thanks for your insight: just two things I want to mention:

1) I didn't see my PM for this game until April 3rd, and I posted mainly saying I was here before I had to leave for work. So no time to answer the questions in my first post. Notice I answer them later in the day. You're correct that it's a null tell.
2) You are also correct that I was confused. Slandaar's "Illogical" statement was not pointed at anyone in particular, and since the prior post seemed to be pointed at me I could only assume that the illogical one was as well. I was incorrect, but Slandaar was not clear either.

His style seems to be making a lot of noise though. It could be scum trying to drive a wedge early or it could be town trying to put pressure on potential scum. The tenor of his posts and the bouncing back and forth between so many players tends to make me think its the former. So in case it wasn't clear before:

FOS Slandaar

[asher1611]

If you FOS slandaar why aren't you voting him, but instead keep your RVS vote on that you had from the begining of the game? If you actually believe LBJ is scum why haven't you made this completely clear before, and if you did when did you?

Because I want to see more of the game develop to get a more solid read on Slandaar one way or another. I'm not one to throw my vote wildy around.

But you're right, RVS seems to be over.

UNVOTE: LBJ

[asher1611]

even if asher is a noob i think he could be scum now, he seems to not want to apply pressure, which is what town want to do, kass seems like a better vote for me atm, but i also have my eye on asher right now.

That's fair. When the time comes I will apply pressure and plenty of it to hunt and out scum, just not unwarranted pressure for the sake of pressure.

There's a significant difference between players who vote to make noise and players who vote to hunt scum. I'm sure you know the difference. I'm used to playing at places where I have to explain this.

[asher1611]

I will be V/LA Today (4/5) through Sunday (4/8)

I will be checking this by phone though, I just won't be able to post.

[asher1611]

Asher, Bagsquad, and XFactor needs to be proded.

I have been v/la for Easter weekend. This is a phone post.

I find sland's application of pressure pro town. He goes after people hoping the scum will break. Better that than throwing around blank statements that do not say a lot oR merely throw words back at peoples faces while doing little else.

Of course with multiple scum factions the scum should be scum hunting as well. Thus, sland is not absolved BC he could just be playing for his team.

More detailed post tomorrow when I have full comp access.

[asher1611]

Ebwop: above is not direct reference to Dr shotgun. Only observation of multiple posts I will look at again tomorrow.

[asher1611]

Long post incoming after reading through the thread again. But in case it gets lost in the tl;dr jumble:

VOTE: OM to the NOM
Reason: Not a fan of his trying to throw META at everything. His play has raised a number of red flags for me. Seems more like trying to distract people from the game at hand. Also, cracks under pressure too easily and in strange ways.

FOS: Kass

Reason: Looks like scum that is trying to stay out of the spotlight. His posts have contributed next to nothing to the thread, and he looks like he is trying to slip under the radar.

Will also be watching Kondi. Some posts leave me scratching my head a little bit.

Below the spoiler tag is a lot of quoted posts. They're in chronological order instead of being ordered by user, but hopefully you all have read up with and are familiar enough with the game to follow:

Spoiler:

Slaandar, here's an example: LBJ, Kassadin, and Bag got scumpoints for not answering the important question (#6), and vijay/TheX got major scumpoints for answering it in only one team's viewpoint.

Mafia = Scum Thats what you associate with scum sure technically wolf is scum kind of but ehhhhhh no. town answering as if scum = mafia is completely believable.

Mafia dont have 2 members, its possible a wolf considers themselves scum and answered from their pov that theres 2 scum.

You are the ONLY person who didnt fall for it Kondi if anything it says more about your alignment than anyone elses... (well except x)

You noticed it because you were too cautious when answering your questions, cautious = scumtell.

So this is a strange standard you two seem to be setting: being too cautious about answers makes you scum, yet presumably being too lacadaisacal/not caring about questions makes you town. Reading and paying attention to the rules makes you scum. Not paying attention to the game setup makes you town. That's just bad policy.

That's actually a great point. VOTE: asher

Why do you keep calling asher scum but keep your vote on me?

I Didnt realise mafia dont have a nk... I assumed both did.

It's been mentioned in-thread. Several times, I believe.

Kondi's vote got my attention though in that he limped in and might as well had said "Vote Ash for Sland's reasoning." Hiding behind someone else's reasoning the whole game is very anti-town and pings my scum-dar. I hope you don't make a habit out of it Kondi.

but towns strongest power is their vote and voice right? If you are town why aren't you using this power? If nobody voted, we wouldn't get anywhere, votes apply pressure.

Of course i am not telling you to L-1 everyone because you are "using your vote" but this early people can crumble under pressure, if you suspect someone the most put pressure on them in hopes they crumble or do something to prove you right.

@asher: thomith is right. Why apply pressure later when you can do it now? How else are you gonna find scum?

You both are being a little short sighted here, although that in of itself is probably little more than a null read. Yes, votes apply pressure. But you're confusing short term & long term. There are plenty of ways to apply pressure in later stages of the game, including using what people posted against them, forming associations based on who voted/posted what and where, and by examining the voting record, vote changes, and wagons.

I'm not going to vote unless I feel strongly enough to vote, and I'm not going to be pressured into voting until I'm ready. From what you all are saying, if a town's only power is to vote then why post anything over than VOTE: SOMEGUY and add nothing else. It's the words and context, the development around the words that is used to apply the pressure. Voting by itself only goes so far -- and the last thing I want is someone coming up to me days later saying "LOL why'd you put your vote on X then switch to Y then back to X then to Z who are all scum LOL SCUMREED!".

I'd rather the town know where I stand with my vote.

Manipulative; trying to get people (ash) to vote me then fueling the fire and keeping options open to vote me later while also making sure you were not part of it by staying with your pl vote in case it went bad. It did.

You are trying to get votes on me while not voting me yourself. Manipulative.

This is the post where I started to realize the game Sland was playing. He doesn't merely votehop, as other people assert, but he backs up his points as well. Don't confuse being concise with making a valid argument. He may look belligerent, but it's useful to examine the way some people have responded to his attacks. He's still on my radar, but is hardly my #1 scum candidate.

I want slandaar lynched :

read wat he has done too

And this is the closest I have seen to substance in any of Kass' posts. And it's lacking. Severely lacking. This is essentially saying "I want it just because." That's no good. You don't want to be pinned down to have something used against you later. Otherwise, your posts are empty and pretty much useless to the town. If anything, you're playing like a player who wants to go through the day unnoticed only to pounce and kill someone at night.

Hello wolfie wolfie. You would have my vote if OM wasn't raising so many red flags.

Sorry. I have to say that everytime I read Thomith, I always think he's scum. It's just a feeling I get (from VM's game XD). As a side note though, you flipped town there right? Just for meta-ing.

Advice: don't trust your "gut" when it relies on other games. That's poor use of meta. I'm not a fan of meta because it can easily be manipulated to the scum's advantage. I understand its usefulness, but it's oftentimes distracting players from the game at hand.

What was the point of you bringing up Thom's meta here vijay? It didn't make a lot of sense to me in context and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me out of context. How is Thom's play in THIS GAME making you think he's scum? Backpedaling? Fence sitting? Calling on others to vote? There are reasons to pluck out of the air -- don't just point to another game somewhere else on the forum.

Alright, kinda did a cross between skimming and reading. Also I'm not going to bother answering the RQS questions unless someone asks me to.

Kass is town. He's playing to his useless town meta I remember from Open 376 (except he was also Mason there but w/e).
Shotgun is town.
v2v is town.
Chrimi is town.
LBJ is probably newb-town.
Thomith is town.

I'm kinda wary of kondi and Slandaar right now. This may sound wierd, but they seem more concerned with making cases and being active than I remember from their town meta. Yes, I get this is what town are supposed to be like, but it just feels off to me.
Of course, this could just be me being fail and forgetting half of their town meta, if that's the case, then just disregard this.

The rest (TheX, asher and Bag) are null.

VOTE: kondi
My gut is going crazy on you.

For now my reads are mainly gut, but I will probably end up using more logic as time goes by, as I personally find it hard to make cases on things that have already happened.

I left this post intact because I do not like this post. At all.

You're both throwing in meta immediately PLUS encouraging people to sit by and do nothing. Almost seems like a scum team to me if it wasn't such blatantly bad play. Or maybe the "bad play" is there to hide your tracks. If anything, encouraging "useless town" is incredibly "anti-town." Also, LBJ is "newb-town" based on the nothing he has contributed? Heck, while I'm at it, I'm with others who are not entirely fans of you refusing to say why you think people are town. We're just supposed to take it as fact, and because you're giving us your "full disclosure" we're not supposed to be suspicious of you. That's the game you're playing, right?

Plus mentioning forgetting people's meta? C'mon buddy. If you're going to use it use it, if you're going to assert it then make up excuses on why you've screwed it up, that's just sloppy play. But I guess we're not supposed to suspect you either because you replaced in.

And the last sentence of that post is just terrible. Hard to make cases for things that have already happened? That's EXACTLY what you are supposed to do. That's like saying you can't make a case on someone in Day 2 based on what happened in Day 1. No, instead you just want to meta til the cows come home instead of encouraging people to look at what's going on right in front of them.

I'm not a fan of explaining townreads. Plus it's mainly gut.

But I did manage to explain my scumreads other than gut. Which is what I'm asking you to do. Why am I scum other than gut? Answer my question, no sidetracking.

gut reads are reads you

CAN'T EXPLAIN.

First off, gut reads can be explained at least in so far as you can point to some posts that come to your attention. At least giving some basis of thought to the town helps explain your mindset instead of leaving them guessing or throwing charges of "LOLGUT" at you.

Second, answering a question in a way you don't expect or do not like to hear does not equal side tracking. You have been reacting very poorly to Sland's prodding as well. You hem and haw instead of refuting his points.

Hey Slandaar, here's a test for you.

Go through the first 10 pages of any game I REPLACED INTO (yes this is important), and see if you can find me using gut reads straight off. Also see if you can find me explaining a town gut read.

You'd be surprised how much I don't explain my town gut reads when replacing in. I do it all the time, regardless of alignment.


EDIT: Yeah you can explain gut reads. Normally there is a cause for your gut to go off. It can't just go off at random and nail scum in an instant. THere has to be a base for your suspicion. Gut is just when you can't entirely pinpoint it on one specific fact.

MAJOR red flag here. I do not like players who, at the first sign of pressure, immediately meta themselves. Like an ostrich hiding its head in the sand. A very scummy ostrich.

And I'm not sure why replacing into a game makes a difference or not. What, you're too lazy to read into old posts? Seems to be the case from what you posted above? Or would you rather just wing it because you know who your scum team is and don't care as long as one of them doesn't get lynched?

Self metaing = damning in my eyes. When your only response to holes in your play in this game is to direct people to other games, that's attempting to distract the town from the matter at hand.

Asher is possibly scum buddy with Slandaar.

Interesting that both of you should react in such agility when I post something about prodding you guys.
Welcome to my suspect list.

I don't want to accuse you of playing lazy mafia because you have been contributing and contributing well throughout the game. But both of these things look like you missed some key details and left some key details out of your post.

I would much rather you post why you mean in addition to what you mean. Re: the first post quoted -- you seem to imply that I'm trying to jump to the defense of slandaar in my prior post, but by not saying as much you're free to pencil in your own explanation of this post later. By not staking your reasoning in the post at hand, you're only making noise. By that reasoning, you would be just as much of a potential scum buddy to Slandaar by trying to distance yourself from him while he's taking heat.

I've just grown to understand his play as the game-day has progressed. He's keeping the game moving, which is more than others can say.

As to the second post: did you miss the part where I said I would be V/LA for easter weekend but would be able to read by phone? I haven't been playing lurky lurk mafia. I have just been unable to post. And with the mod's addendum to the prodding rules (three strikes and out) I didn't want to risk getting prodded just because I was on V/LA.

^ what exactly are you talking about?

Slandaar however is not playing very sensibly. Town's only weapon right now is his vote and by shooting scatter shits all over the place with his puny vote, he is getting on my nerves.

This.

Also, Slandaar is either scum, wolf, or is town that is playing very anti-town.

Calling every player he runs into scum and voting in scattershots is terrible, gets no data and only adds to the confusion. Wait, adds to the confusion- isn't that part of scum's objective?

And he's doing a very good job.

So far, he looks like a wonderful lynch candidate.

Chrimi: so far you seem the most "town" of any of the posters I've seen. You make points and back them up, which is good. But think about what you're saying for a second. Is Slandaar's play "anti-town?" What is the town's goal again: to lynch scum. To win the game. Simply throwing votes out at people again and again would be scatter shot voting. That would add confusion or mud to the waters. I've seen Slandaar press people on points he brings up throughout the thread -- and some of them have cracked under the pressure. His scum hunting might not be conventional, but it's not something that is only adding confusion.

And as I said, Slandaar could easily be scum hunting other scum. But for now that helps the town so right now I would rather direct my vote/attention at people who are doing nothing for the town or encouraging the town to ignore the game at hand.

Vote hopping townie for pressure?

Vote hopping isn't applying pressure. Keeping your vote on one person and pressing and pressing is called pressure. Changing your vote every 5 posts is not pressure, it's vote hopping, and doesn't apply much pressure at all.

You've been doing so well. Don't get bogged down in arguing semantics. Look at the posts surrounding the votes -- that's where you'll find the scum. Especially with people creeping in to vote and hoping to be unseen.

Well hey, you can only really pressure one person at a time. Yet Slandaar votes so many people. He can't be pressuring them all now can he?

It is entirely possible to add pressure to more than one person at a time. Voting is not the only way to pressure someone in a game. It might be the most effective way (something about the prospect of going to the gallows has that effect), but it's not the only way.

Vote hopping can be a scumtell depending no the context.
it is a scumtell when you do it during the day with no deadlines nearby and no clear reason.

Obviously you were insinuating this

I see it as scum vote hopping.

as shown here

Therefore you are saying I am scum for vote hopping, I am scum based on meta, yet my meta says votehopping = town.

You cant use meta when it suits you and not when it doesnt. (well you can when you are scum, or try to)

or you want to admit you dont know my meta and just fabricated your read on me again making you scum... (this is the case)

These are the kind of posts that made me realize Slandaar's game. He votes to get people talking, then he pounces on people's inconsistencies. I've learned more from watching how people react to him about potential scum than anyone's answers in the random questions.

So what are you freaking out about?
If you are not linked with Slandaar at all except for the fact that you defended him for Vote hopping, and that's the only link Om can find to frame you guilty, what's the big deal?
Sorry, am I blind here? You seem to be freaking out not because you were framed by Om, but because of the fact that he actually made a link with you and Slandaar.

I'll agree here, Thom did seem strangely defensive. Almost as if he doesn't want the attention on him because he doesn't want to flip scum so early. Between trying to direct me to vote and some wishy washiness, it's enough to where I'll be paying attention to him.

But my point is that not giving examples isn't anti-town. Don't misrep what I'm saying.
Yeah, as I was going to say you also seem to do it for the sake of discrediting me.

How do any of you guys feel about a Thomith wagon?

Also I'm going to have to stop for the night. It's about 11PM now, and I'm really tired (been staying up till 3AM the past few nights).

Your first set of posts raised red flags because you were misusing meta and encouraging poor town play. This post confirms more of my suspicions about you. See, you're already under pressure due to the number of votes on you.

So you propose a Thomith wagon because he's the most recent and most convenient target? What, to draw votes off of you when there is plenty of reason to make a case against you. Why should we bother listening to you for a wagon, and why should we even be forming a wagon one week out from the deadline when there are two players (you and Sland) that already have plenty of votes.

It's not like we're in danger of getting a no lynch at this point. So I can only assume you're proposing the wagon to save your scum hide.

That is my take on the game thus far.

[asher1611]

EBWOP: Self Metaing should read "Defensive Self Metaing = Damning in my eyes."

[asher1611]

asher, when you talk about kass in the spoiler tag you say "hello wolfie wolfie" infering her being a werewolf, when we have two scumgroups in the game, what made you assume werewolf?

Partially having fun with the language, and partially the fact that because the mafia has no NK they'll need to be active or do something during the day to push the town towards killing itself. The wolves can lurk in the shadows, kill at night, and still achieve their objective.

So assuming Kass is scum, it's far more likely he a wolf than mafia.

[asher1611]

I'll explain it. I want Slandaar to post first.

Coupled with:

Regarding pressure, I believe it's you being short-sighted. Well not short-sighted, but more not considering both sides of the coin. Sure pressure can be imposed in the long term by questioning statements made,

but why wait for that when you can pressure now? Furthermore, shouldn't early pressure provide you with more ammunition for late pressure as scum crack and flail

?

I know you don't have to play the exact same game the same way every time, but it looks like you're doing the same thing others have accused Sland of doing with your vote. From here, it looks like you've shot the volley but are holding back on the follow through, thereby looking good in the town's standing while leaving your vote out to dry.

I guess we just have different play styles. But I'm not sure why you're trying to bait Sland into anything when you could just as easily explain your vote.

[asher1611]

asher, when you talk about kass in the spoiler tag you say "hello wolfie wolfie" infering her being a werewolf, when we have two scumgroups in the game, what made you assume werewolf?

Its obvious. Hes mafia.

I seriously LOL'd. I hope you're being facetious.

I'll need alot of convincing for you to convince me om is town.
Also can we unvote now then, we really shouldnt lynch a claimed seer day 1.

I agree that OM has a huge uphill battle to convince me that he's anything other than town. However, I am surprised that you are so willing to buy Sland's roleclaim. I give two reasons, but first I'll start with the post where he claimed:

Chrimi is definitely scum here hes misrepping deliberately.

OK

I am the seer

Om is very bad, but hes

town probably

. Thomith is

town

. Kondi is

town

. Asher is probably

town

. thats 5/7 town. Lynching scum shouldnt be too hard. Lynching dr or Chrimi is definitely the best bet.

Never seen Elmo post so much, not sure what that means. Maybe town.

Dont vote any of my townreads

meaning the only wagon available is Chrimi or start your own.

1) Look at the setup. The ONLY town power role is seer. It is highly valuable to the town, but easily targetable by the scum as well because there are no town protective roles. A seer claiming as seer is asking to get night killed -- which can be a smart play when he can divulge data to trade his death for the death of other scum. However, a seer claiming as such on day 1 has no data to give to the town, and is essentially throwing away the town's only power role without getting any info on the other players.

From the posts I have seen by sland, he's not that stupid if he were, in fact, the seer.

2) This is a player who has criticized people for giving out their "town reads" as essentially making them meaningless. I'll have to find the post by him again at some point that essentially says "vote based on your town reads, don't share them to the town it's pointless." Yet at the drop of the hat when he is at L-1 what does he do? He drops a bunch of names as his town reads, tries to direct the town how to vote, and then tries to throw mud and say "we should target these people and not my town reads."

Very inconsistent. To be honest, it looks like desperation to me.

I am willing to switch my vote to hammer Sland. Consider this intent to hammer, but I guess it is prudent to hear what a few other town members say first regarding Sland's claim.

[asher1611]

UNVOTE:
I still think you could be scum, but I believe the claim.

looks like my post came in too slow.

OM you're scum or a fool...or both.

[asher1611]

I've said all along that sland could just as easily be scum hunting scum as he could be town. All you need to do is look back at the game he has been playing and compare it to the sudden desperation of his role claim.

If you have a seer claim day 1 then you don't lynch it, obviously this doesn't clear slandaar, but with 2 scum reads of mine (1 now i guess but still) i was wary of the wagon to begin with.
If we lynch slandaar and he does flip seer then effectively we are getting rid of the only town role that can catch them (easily?) and giving them a free shot.

So you're saying let Slandaar live, so that the wolves must kill him tonight? If he's a seer he has just screwed himself. There is absolutely no way to protect him, and he has done a grand total of zero investigations. The wolves have zero incentive to let him live because he could rng into a wolf during the night, and out them the next day knowing he could die at any point. If he is a seer who is claiming truthfully, he has just crippled the town one way or another.

I do believe you're holding a little too hard and fast to your "How to Play Mafia" rulebook. What's to stop scum from claiming a town power role on day 1 to avoid a lynch? It's a no risk proposition on Day 1 normally. It has two potential wins: to keep the scum alive and to flush out the only town power role.

But it's one thing to claim Cop day 1 as scum, it's another thing entirely to claim seer in this setup. It is an incredibly anti-town play, and instead only speaks of self preservation.

And maybe I missed it, but why exactly were you wary of the Slandar wagon again?

If you have a seer claim day 1 then you don't lynch it, obviously this doesn't clear slandaar.

This was exactly what I meant, why the fuck are you guys calling me an idiot?

To call you an idiot would imply it was no fault of your own -- and I did not do you that favor. As for your language? Is that what you do any time someone disagrees with you? Flail into the night kicking and screaming wondering why someone can think you were wrong (I'm still waiting for you to post anything refuting what I said before fyi).

Although I disagree with Thomith's position, it is at least defensible in a "metagame" sense. There is a certain risk-reward calculus to it.

Meanwhile, you only said you believed his role claim, removed your vote, and then hid behind someone's reasoning while trying to attack someone else with essentially an OMGUS. There's no way what Thomith said could be "exactly what [you] meant." You said you believed Slandar's role claim. He said he thought lynching a claimed seer is a bad idea.

Those are two totally different positions. They're not reconcilable at all. You just pegged yourself as scum yet again. Congratulations.

[asher1611]

I want to get back to this for a second:

You seem to think doing anything makes anybody scum. Somebody gets replaced- must be scum. Somebody defended their town read- must be buddying scum. Everything is scum to you. Also, if you know kass is scum and you think there's a possibility I'm town who wants to keep him alive, then kill kass not me. Serious lack of logic.

You think everyones scum isn't that what you have been saying? oh right. Suits you then but not now so better drop that argument?

Also, I have town reads, I just dont flaunt them.

I gained them by pressing certain people.
Yet that is exactly what you did in your role claim. You dropped the seer bomb and then immediately wilted and spilled your guts on all of your "town reads" and all of your "scum reads." That's terribly inconsistent. That looks like someone who is trying to cover a lie by giving a little too much detail and information. To give the lie enough window dressing that everyone thinks it looks nice and ignores it.

The more I look at your play in this game vs the post where you claim, the more I think I had you pegged right as scum hunting scum.

I also believe OM is scum, but Sland has already cracked.

[asher1611]

if slandaar is so obviously scum asher why aren't you voting? You obviously disagree with my reasoning and think slandaar is scum anyway so whats the hold up? Cold feet?

semi-FOS asher

Not cold feet at all, I just keep getting posts from people while I'm in the middle of writing responses, and I want to add them into my reasoning while I cast my vote.

asher explain to me the point in not claiming seer if i am the seer seems like nail in coffin right?

also I never said anything like you re suggesting in point 2

So if you are the seer, you're throwing your life away before it can be useful, not even to do anything by really helping the town by voting.
If you're scum, you're preserving yourself, you're attempting to draw out the seer, you're promoting a potential mislynch or "other scum faction" lynch, and you're creating an actual cloud of confusion for the town (as opposed to what others said was confusing by you pressuring people earlier) that distracts them from the lynch in front of them.

What's more likely, suicidal sole town power role ON DAY ONE? Or scum doing all that I outlined above?

It's the latter.

By the way, if you are a VT who claimed seer just to save your own hide, that's one big /facepalm right there.

I will get killed tonight

We should lynch Chrimi

You're still on this? And what happens if you DON'T get killed tonight?

no im giving my reads because my death is imminent 1 way or the other

ergo im town

Ergo you're attempting to look town. "Oh I have to give my reads!" With so many votes against you, how much authority and weight do your words really have with people? How much sway? Not a lot, unless you die and flip seer. By appearing to "look town," you're attempting to save your own hide. At the very least, it is to the detriment of the town. At worst, it is to do all I outlined above.

Tons of posts while I wrote this, so might as well get this out here if people are thinking I'm holding back.

UNVOTE: Unvote
VOTE: Vote: Slandaar

That's back to L-1

[asher1611]

look its very very likely all 4 of us are town purely based on how much we have posted and the speed at which we respond to each other.

we need to vote together.

Get on Chrimi or Kass

Still trying to wagon to save your own hide.

That's blatant. You're getting truly desperate now.

And who in the world says only town post a lot of content at a fast pace? I've seen plenty of talkative scum and quiet town in mafia. Surely you have too?

[asher1611]

I still think Kass is town, and I also think Chrimi is town. I don't want to lynch either of them. Right now I want either a Thomith lynch or an Asher lynch.

So you're only wanting to target the people who discredit you?

Get your big boy pants on man. That's bad play right there.

[asher1611]

actually, that vote seemed like a "oh shit im being suspected for not voting, better lay down my vote quick!"
UNVOTE: VOTE: asher
correct me if i'm wrong, but i dont think you had any intentions of voting until i called you up on it.

You're incorrect, but you're making sense. I had the unvote/vote in one of my prior posts but deleted it after I saw there were a bunch of replies, including ones by Slandaar, between when I posted.

Funny how, for all of this "OMG you need to vote" that you and others have posted at me before, when I do vote it draws suspicion. Obviously context is key, but it does make me LOL a little.

[asher1611]

Asher is town

hes just being stupid unfortunately.

Stop infighting

We need to lynch the scum not town.

Yes, please try to buddy with someone who it pushing against your role claim, voted for you, and is continuing to discredit you.

I think I see what you're doing there.

[asher1611]

if slandaar is seer wolves will probably kill him tonight,

meaning lynching him could be a wasted lynch,

also it isn't really anti-town play if he is going to get lynched anyway.
This slandaar wagon just got a whole lot worse and i feel there is at least one scum on it, the reasoning for it plus the current arguements to lynch it despite the claim are just bad bad bad.

atm im not voting chrimi, i would be willing to lynch one of asher/kass/om today, as i already said,

lynching the seer is a wasted lynch

, because if they are a seer or not a wolf then they will most likely die tonight.
also i might buy the slandaar being not a seer easier if they randomly claimed, but they were L-1 and was about to get lynched, which really most power roles would claim then, if you were seer you probably would have too.

I appreciate the fact that you continue to make sense and are using logical reasoning. And pardon my voting etiquette -- I guess I'm used to playing Mafia at other places where people don't throw out their votes as hastily or as often as they do on this site. Live and learn I guess.

And I get your argument but I don't like the characterization of it being a "wasted lynch." It could be the "wrong" lynch, but if we nail scum it is hardly wasted. Think about it from the scum's perspective for a second:

1) Would the mafia squander their man advantage by having one of them claim seer on day one, making the player an obvious target for the wolves, who they are competing against? Most likely, no. The scum team would either lose that mafia member and/or draw out the seer, who cannot see mafia but can draw out werewolves. The mafia would risk losing their man advantage plus a way to out their opposing scum team. It would be in the mafia's best interest to not claim seer.

2) Would one of the two werewolves try and claim seer to save their own skin? Absolutely. It could avoid a lynch, and wolves are not going to NK one of their own. It could draw out the seer, the only town power role and the only one who can detect them. Plus if they draw out the seer but had already claimed seer first, who is the town going to believe? There's the potential of surviving an extra day by the town mislynching the actual seer.

I agree that it is typical for town power roles to claim at L-1 what their role is. But this game is not like other setups where the mystery town doc/jailer/etc can swoop in and save the claimed power role for at least one night (thus creating the prisoner's dilemma of who to protect and who to kill target). No, once the seer outs himself or herself, the seer is still going to die either by a lynch or by a night kill without being able to give any additional info. One Day 1 at 1-L, that's without giving any info at all.

Even if we continue to disagree, you see my point, right?

[asher1611]

I semi see your point but i disagree,
your right, he could be werewolf saving his skin, but what if he's not? Werewolves would be stupid to leave a seer alive to get even one report off, meaning if slandaar is seer lynching him give the wolf a free kill, by lynching someone else if slandaar is seer werewolves pretty much have to kill slandaar.

Which of course creates the classic WIFOM of what happens if the wolves decide to not NK Sland, since everyone assumes they will, we lynch him the next day and he flips seer anyway.

You're balancing the risk-reward of potentially killing the seer day 1.

I'm voting based off of what reads like a desperation claim by scum.

[asher1611]

Keeping the above in mind, who is wanting to lynch Slandaar today. Keep your answer short and simple.

Doesn't the vote record already reflect this? Obviously we're still waiting to hear from other people since Sland's claim.

I stand by my vote to lynch Slandaar for the reasons I outlined above.

[asher1611]

why are we even discussing policy lynches?

While we're at it, why is people's meta even getting drug into the discussion again? Didn't we already have this discussion early in the game day? Throwing meta everywhere distracts people from the game in front of them.

If the town is intent on lynching someone else and letting sland get away with a desperation claim, then shouldn't people actually be hunting?

I haven't seen anything that dissuades me from my vote or tells me anything particularly new (including my prior Kass suspicion and my prior OM suspicion -- OM who promised a response to my long post that included a vote for him, said it got 500 Forbidden'd, and has not addressed it since).

[asher1611]

It would be best for them to come in the night, instead of mid-discussion.

I disagree. You can still read the player's slot instead of just the player. Better than having an empty discussion when half the town has to be replaced.

What did I miss there? Sorry I did a big post here and no one says anything -_____-

I read your big post. I don't have too much to say or add other than to two parts of it:

#1

I can't really buy into #2 just because I understand the point of the seer and what not but why would the wolves want to lose a man advantage this early in the game knowing fully well then they would have to play an almost perfect game to nail mafia and pull a win. As for #1 its implausible.

Because if a wolf is about to be lynched day 1 anyway, there is nothing for team wolf to lose by false claiming seer and plenty to gain.

#2

Tomith is becoming my strongest town read. Here

I found Thom's vote of me to be understandable to an extent but misplaced. If he's trying to pressure vote me that's fine. But for the 2nd time this game he has criticized me for not backing up my words with a vote. Thus my not voting is suspicious. Yet when I do lay down a vote on Sland, suddenly I'm suspicious as well. A damned if I do damned if I don't kind of vote which apparently is all based on timing of when he semi-FOS'd me.

Don't get me wrong, I get why Thom voted. I've come to learn that people on this site are very GOGOGO about votes compared to other places I have played mafia. But context is key as well: I was in the middle of making a case against Sland. I broke that case up into multiple posts based on being able to tie in other people's responses as they were coming in. I don't think I had given any indication that I was unwilling to vote for Sland or had cold feet for voting for Sland, especially when I had already declared intent to hammer just as OM retracted his vote.

[asher1611]

Pedit: Asher its how I feel 9.10 times i make big posts no one reads.
But I understand but my suspiscion comes from reading the game as a whole your posting just seemed off. As for the unvote from Om what do you believe there?

I feel you there. My big post got pretty much ignored as well. Although that's nothing new compared to other places I have played.

"Seems off." So pretty much in your gut for now? I can accept that as you have already pointed to a few posts of mine that you believe to be problematic (and I have already addressed/answered to others who had problems with them).

I still believe OM is scum. I laid out a lot of my reasons in the big post -- mainly inconsistencies and defensive self metaing at the drop of a hat.

[asher1611]

also asher i voted you because i felt you only voted when pressured, yes i said you should vote, but your sland vote just seemed like a "oh fuck better vote" with little reasoning.

Little reasoning? Except for all of the reasons I gave on why I thought Sland's claim was false?

[asher1611]

what i meant was it seemed that you just decided "OH SHIT I NEED TO VOTE" yes you said why sland was scum, but you never actually VOTED until i called you up on it.

ATTENTION TOWN: we must all now only vote when it is deemed convenient for Thomith.

I had already declared intent to hammer but by the time my post got up OM had withdrawn his vote. If he wasn't L-1 he would have already had my vote for his desperation claim. If you think I only voted because you said I had not voted, which is essentially what you have explained as your reason for a vote in multiple posts, you're giving yourself way too big of a pat on the back. The vote was coming whether or not you posted a word.

On a side note: there's a lot of people not contributing who I wish would. I'd love to hear a few more perspectives on Sland's claim, lest the scum teams get a free pass to sit back and watch the town tear itself apart..

[asher1611]

Don't believe Slandaar cliam.
Slandaar still top scum suspect. Going to tunnel.
Kondi,

Asher still looking scummy too

.

Interesting. Tell me more.

OMNOM: I will reply to your post when I have more time at the computer later tonight/tomorrow.

[asher1611]

So now we're all just sitting around waiting for someone to hammer? I'm not sure what else is going to be said today given most of the people who actually contribute to this thread have given their pieces for/against a Sland lynch. There are a few people who haven't posted much on it, but I'm not holding my breath either.

[asher1611]

sorry for being so inactive, I had a death in the family, the past week has been incredibly hectic. i'll probably be able to post more now, but if not i'll ask for a replacement.

Sorry to hear that

[asher1611]

I'm just going to start by saying /facepalm at Slandaar. I guess I could see what he was trying to do, but a VT making a false claim put the town far more at risk than simply claiming town. It was a "me first" play instead of a "team," play.

Boo.

I have more thoughts on the game, but I'm at work right now and am heading out to a conference tomorrow. So I just want to post three things for now:

VOTE: Kass for reasons I stated yesterday.

Om is still very much on my radar.

I will be V/LA Tuesday the 17th and Wednesday the 18th.

[asher1611]

What the fuck? You couldn't wait until tonight for me to give my notes?

You're still alive! Would love to see your notes.

lol. I voted slandaar because he is 1

Also you voted during RVS, so how would you know this then?
Get kass not slandaar please.

Hmm, that's very bad form by Chrimi changing the words that someone else said in a quote. And it's not like it's really even long enough to warrant a paraphrase. Do not like. By taking out the "not," you completely change the meaning.

FOS Chrimi

[asher1611]

vote:kondi

I don't know what kind of game you're trying to play. But whatever it is, you're on fire.

Are you trying to get lynched?

[asher1611]

V/LA through Wednesday the 18th

[asher1611]

And before anyone asks, I'm not revealing my result until the end of the day.

End of the day like within the next 24 hours or end of the day like the day?

If you have them, what's the harm in sharing what you think? If you don't have time to post ATM, I understand.

Still at conference, will be done tomorrow.

[asher1611]

I'm back from V/LA. Time to read what I missed (although it doesn't look like there's a lot).

[asher1611]

Time for a slightly longer post that people aren't going to read, because while there isn't a lot I'm confused. I totally missed Kondi's claim when I briefly looked at the thread this morning.

About the Thomith post, at the time I thought they were scumbuddies so

I was just making a point by putting that, to display my thoughts.

Sorry to hear about your broken leg. However, you can explain your thoughts just as easily by quoting the post and linking them. Changing someone else's words in a quote is terrible form.

In the meantime, does anyone think HypoSeer would be a good thing?

So you propose an exercise where, essentially, everyone says who they think is a wolf. Am I getting that right, I'm not really familiar with the term (like Fat Tony) but that's essentially how it shook down.

...but I'd rather kill werewolves atm (ie Kondi)

And this was Vijay calling you a wolf a 2nd time. As far as I've seen he is the only one who has stated this belief.

Are you all THAT retarded? It's obvious that vijay is softclaiming a guilty on me like crazy.

Unfortunately for vijay,

he chose to guilty the real Seer

. It's funny, too, because I was sure that you were Mafia due to your slip. VOTE: vijay

And the bolded is you claiming, which I missed this morning. In the post immediately after none the less. Talk about jumping the gun.

So you proposed people make a hypothetical seer claim. Vijay does this, naming you as the suspect. With no one else putting any pressure on you, and with only one vote on you, you go ahead and claim seer. WTF. Slandaar's claim yesterday was terrible enough and criticized for coming before intent to hammer. Your claim came with one vote (that wasn't even from vijay) after you asked people to "Hypo Seer." I don't understand why you're throwing away the potential for more nights of info when you're revealing your role at the drop of a hat PLUS not sharing info with town.

Not to mention that can it really be called "soft claiming" when you yourself ask for people to give their hypothetical claim AND jump on someone before giving everyone a chance to make a hypothetical seer claim and put information on the table. I'm just very confused by the whole situation.

I ALREADY TOLD YOU PEOPLE I HAVEN'T HAD TIME ARGGH

And before anyone asks, I'm not revealing my result until the end of the day.

And I kinda stopped looking at the thread after I sent in my investigation.

Wait, what?

I don't get this at all. You've claimed seer already, and now you're hiding the ball. It only takes 1-3 words to share with the town your investigation result. What's the hold up? Why wait? What's the point. If you ding'd a wolf then let the town know.

And you said earlier before that you haven't had time to post your notes that you had. Now you say that you stopped looking at the thread after your investigation. But you still have your notes?

Since you've put a big fat target on your back by claiming seer with two alive wolves, I don't see what's the hold up front sharing everything with the town. So share it.

[asher1611]

I HAVE A FUCKING BUSY LIFE PEOPLE I'M NOT GONNA SIT HERE AND READ THIS SHIT WHEN YOU FUCKS WANT ME TO

NOW BE FUCKING PATIENT AND LET ME GIVE MY NOTES BEFORE YOU DO SOMETHING RETARDED

It's a game, so let me agree with Kass to say calm down.

Second, I understand having a busy life. I was just in meetings for two straight days, and there's no way anyone can keep up with every game they're in 100% of the time and not be a fully functioning member of society.

But keep in mind that your posts are fully searchable just like everyone else. So I'm getting very conflicting vibes from you:

1) That you say you have no time and have not been able to post
2) That since your investigation you have not paid much attention to this thread.

I can see #1 and #2 dovetailing if you got busy right around the time of Night 1. But then there's point 3 & 4:

3) I've looked at your post again and confirmed what I had observed before: you're being pretty active in the other games you are in.
4) You certainly seem have time to a) roleclaim and b) rage in this post

So if more votes is going to be what motivates you to give your information (as you have said before re: revealing your info at the "end of the day"), then let me help:

UNVOTE: Kass
VOTE: Kondi

That should be L-2, but I'd love to see another vote count and I'm sure one was coming shortly anyway.

[asher1611]

Thanks for replacing in Pirate Chemist!

[asher1611]

You people don't realize that notes take SERIOUS TIME to create. Doing things such as jumping on a wagon or making this post take about a minute, but my notes are going to take MUCH LONGER than that.

And that may be where brevity serves you better than longwindedness. Often times you can see where to cut the fluff, and what you end up writing is more effective.

Plus saying who you chose to use your seer power on, why, and what the result was can take as little as a sentence or two.

Just some advice.

Phone post fyi in case of weird typos.

[asher1611]

As far as I can see, Day 2 was complete amateur hour by Team WOLF. I will add that they did a great job for the town by killing Vijay. Personally, I didn't have much of a scum read on him at all -- I'm sure others did. But now that the Vijay = Mafia info is out there, that is a huge boon in info for the town to work with.

But I want to point to one particular post from Day 2 that caught my eye. Not enough people pay attention to the voting record, or at least they do not know what to do with it when it is sitting in front of them. And I do believe the other wolf slipped up and exposed himself to the rest of the town (not in that way, pervert).

Sorry for my lack there of doing anything. Been weird this week. Either way Chimi's twisting words of others

and Kondi (is a wolf)

Nice to see nothings really happened. and HypoSeer has died.

Don't like Chimi still

VOTE: Chimi

Compare the two statements with me:

"Kondi (is a wolf)" = I know this person is scum.
"Don't like Chimi still" = I believe this person is scum

As town, you should vote for what you see as true. Here, Elmo voted for the lesser of his scum reads. Note this was at L-2. Kondi's plan was to self hammer, and Elmo did not want to look like he was on that bus and/or bring attention/suspicion to himself In the alternative, he did not want to vote off his only scum partner.

Instead, he waffled (nomnomnom). He spoke too much and justified his Chrimi vote while also saying he agreed with the totally justified wagon that was building on Kondi. The smarter play would have been to be ruthless and to cut your losses from your scum partner who had obviously, to use the poker/pinball term, "gone tilt." Or, in layman's terms, he should have tried to distance himself from the scum partner that screwed up. Instead? He limped in with a vote for Chrimi in the very post where he said Kondi was his stronger scum read.

Gargantuan scum tell.

Never mind, Elmo literally can't be a Werewolf after that. He wouldn't be able to resist the temptation to vote me as a wagoned up, claimed Seer.

I'm completely fine with a Chrimi vote until I can get my notes up. VOTE: Chrimi

Kondi was terrible, just TERRIBLE with his fake role claim. He panicked because he misread the situation and thought someone was breadcrumbing instead of simply trying to deny and discredit. Very poor scum play. So it is only logical to believe that someone who has gone tilt/lost focus at this point of the game would make other such terrible scum plays. Like jumping in the post immediately after Elmo to say (to paraphrase) "OH BY THE WAY, ELMO'S NOT A WEREWOLF." This, combined with Elmo's non-vote on Kondi outlined above makes me feel that Elmo is Kondi's wolf scum partner.

VOTE: Elmo teh Azn

[asher1611]

I like this Elmo lynch but I think it's way too soon and too risky to put him to L-1 just yet. We should at least draw it out and try to draw info from the remaining scum. But I'm convinced Elmo is a wolf after Kondi's botch.

That's prudent, especially when wolves love to self hammer and especially with what I'm about to post.

Wow so because I go against the grain and didn't hope on the obvious bandwagon of Kondi Im a wolf.[/b] GENIUS!
Also nice misrep there Asher.

No one knew for sure Kondi was a wolf

and the reason it was in parenthesis is because I believe Chimi had said it? But nice to see everyones sheeping Asher now for towncred as well.

In another world you may be raising valid points, and here you are correct to draw attention to people who are simply sheeping my reasoning for voting for you. But there is just one big thing you have going against you...

You got seer'd last night by me. The result was werewolf.

BOOMSHAKALAKA

I dare someone to attempt to counterclaim. I also dare someone to cry Spartacus at me. I targeted Emlo specifically for what I posted previously, plus what his slot did on Day 1. And if people are going to try and discredit me, as inevitably they will, let me give you four reasons why my claim is credible:

1) There is one werewolf left and I found him. By presenting the info to the town we remove any further risk of a night kill.
2) By presenting this info to the town, it gives the town one confirmed town member and increases the odds of lynching mafia in future days.
3) Look at how I pressed Slandaar's claim in day 1. Look at how I pressed Kondi's claim in day 2. I didn't go as heavy handed day 2 because I didn't want to make it obvious that I was the seer. Looks like it worked, because I wasn't the NK target. I'm curious if I was one of Kondi's reads.
4) Most importantly: even if the town does not believe my claim and I get lynched today, I will flip seer and the town will know I was being honest about Elmo being a werewolf.

Please don't put Elmo at L-1 without first giving others a chance to counter-claim. He'll self hammer and deny the town valuable information.

[asher1611]

One of the best exchanges I have seen in this thread is as follows:

No NK = Less info for town

Yes NK = Less town to use the info

OmNom makes the winning town argument. Not to mention I have yet to see anyone use night kill info in their analysis in this game or any other game on this site for the short time I have been here. Mafia would rather avoid night kills because there is a possibility of getting knocked down to having only 1 member left. Town would not want night kills because obviously it means more town will die. Seeing as there is much more town than mafia at the moment, it is a very pro-mafia statement to say it is a bad thing to eliminate night kills from this game.

FOS: Chrimi

[asher1611]

Hmm.

I don't like that. The last two people who claimed seer got lynched.

A scum would not claim at this time..

Although, if it is true, then claiming seer will be fine because without a werewolf there is no night kill.

However, I believe you still may be mafia trying to get rid of the other wolf (you found out who it is)

so you are pretending to be seer to get him lynched.

All possibilities, my friend.

I'll start from the top:

The last two people that claimed seer got lynched in part because I knew they were not seer. Slandaar made an idiotic, anti-town fake claim to try and save himself from the fire he had already thrown himself into. Kondi was scum who didn't know how to react when someone called them scum. I voted for both because they lied about being the seer.

Scum would not claim at this time, yet I might be scum: so that is some delicious wine you are putting in front of yourself?

Obviously, once the seer has found the last wolf it is safe to claim seer and out the last wolf. I bread-crumbed very heavily in the post where I voted Elmo, and I wanted to gauge his reaction before claiming. No would would indeed equal no kill, and I would be able to use my power role to parlay an unwritten power: confirming my role would give the entire town the info that I am town -- which in this setup with no nightkills and only two mafia alive puts the town in a commanding position.

But think about it from the perspective of if I was mafia for a minute. It would be a ballsy gambit, but there would be significant risks about getting it wrong re: Elmo. If he doesn't flip wolf, the mafioso is exposed. It does create a huge distraction for the town, but it would inevitably leave the mafia hoping for a 1-1 or 1-1-1 scenario to win the game.

And if I am not the seer but instead mafia, then it is in the true seer's best interest to step up and claim if s/he knows who the last wolf is or to come out now and discredit me if s/he does not know who the last wolf is.

However, as I said before, I am the town seer.

I played the first day to draw just enough suspicion to avoid getting NK'd or lynched. I pushed both seer fake claims pretty much as soon as I saw them. I reported my findings as soon as it was safe to.

And if you ISO me, you will find I breadcrumbed nothing from Day 2. That's because my Night 1 investigation was Drmyshotgun. Yeah, that turned out well but to be honest it was between him and Kondi. I would have investigated Kondi next if something drastic didn't happen Day 2. Turns out Kondi did my work for me, leaving me to only look for his scum partner.

PEdit: Tony, pretty much right on the $ re: if Elmo doesn't flip wolf.

[asher1611]

I have a feeling one of them is a bus and the other is mafia.

So you think both kass and chrimi are some kind of mafia?

also elmo, the others have a point, in the post that was quoted you seemed to know kondi was a wolf, and now you said "oh nobody was sure" that doesn't add up, and the seer claim makes me want to vote you more,

does anyone have any objections to me putting elmo at L-1?

I object only because the wolves have shown they'll self hammer. Give it a little more time, I think there are people who have not posted since I claimed Seer.

[asher1611]

I see posts. Ill respond to them later. Do I believe Ashers claim. Of course not.

Is someone going to CC him. Of course.

And really why would I self hammer? Theres no point as it would only help scum in the long run work on a course of action

If I am not the seer and there is a seer lurking out there who does not know who the last wolf is, I doubt there would be a CC.

Unless, of course, you plan on counter-claiming. That would be a last ditch effort.

Of course, there is a seer who did claim in public without provocation: me. And my claim was that you are a werewolf. Both of us know the truth of the situation. Hopefully the town lynches you today and learns the truth about your shedding and flea problem.

[asher1611]

I don't shed. Either way May as well lynch me.

Theres no point in defending. Kondi really did botch it.

And even then I made a crucial slip earlier today I was hoping would go unnoticed.

Haven't you realized I've been working on finding the maf.

Really you weren't top 3 on Seer reads. I have no intention of self hammering since Town semi deserves this win. But Chimi I believe is scum.

My bad regarding the shedding. But interesting choice white flagging it. Second wolf & seer confirmed.

And I understand you were hunting mafia. I've been in multi-scum faction games before to and scum hunted harder than anyone in town (

OT: and would have won too if the mods didn't allow town to coordinate their night actions to protect each other and communicate via PM during the day -- but that's on another forum and I don't play there anymore

). When you're down to the last of your faction you have no choice but to scumhunt.

But your night kill means you have to die. If only wolves and man could get along. Maybe one day.

With Elmo's surrender I'm not sure how much else will come out of today unless someone comes out of the woodwork to counter-claim me.

Pedit: Hey guess we did get something. PC & Thom: that is a terrible idea. Leaving the night kill on the table poses a much greater risk to the town than the mafia. As I said to Chrimi, that kind of thinking is much more pro mafia than pro town. There is no reason for the town to attempt to out-game themselves and screw themselves out of a victory. Not to mention, Elmo is far and away the best lynch candidate.

Kill the scum you know when you have the chance to kill him, lest he kills you.

[asher1611]

Not to mention being a "dead man walking" isn't that fun for the person in limbo. Granted, I was alpha-wolf in the above mentioned game and managed to keep one of my underling wolves alive for 3 days before the town banded together. But that was just silly, and that played into my hands as scumlord. Still, there wasn't much he could do other than be a zombie-wolf.

Don't leave the confirmed wolf alive. We've got a victory today for the town -- all we have to do is slam it home.

[asher1611]

I understand where you are coming from, but there is pro town in it as it can be seen similar to what happened in my mayo clinic claim where the SK claimed and said they would be a vig for town, although we can't completely trust them as they are still scum with the threat of death we could controll the kill,

however there is a difference here that there is no protection role to protect our pretty much clear

, so i am in favor of lynching elmo, but was just throwing it out there.

Bolded is one key difference.

Another key difference is that there is no reason for us to throw away having a 6-2 town-scum advantage with the mafia being unable to nightkill. Worst case scenario is we lynch a town and a town gets NK'd. 4-2 is a much more winnable game for the mafia.

You don't have to wait for my permission. I think we got what we're going to get out of today.

[asher1611]

ebwop: can't math, 5-2 out of who is left alive if we lynch wolf, 3-2 worst case if we don't. We don't want to go there.

[asher1611]

That list actually mirrors my scum reads pretty well.

Damn, why did I just hammer you?

Because he's a wolf.

And it doesn't match mine. But that's for tomorrow!

[asher1611]

I want to do some fresh ISOs before I vote. I've got some ideas, but at least we have got some wiggle room if we mislynch today.

[asher1611]

Alright this is going to be fun I guess. I had my gut read going into the day and I'm going to stick with it after reviewing the evidence.

VOTE: Chrimi

A lot of this post is Day 1 stuff. I have a feeling I know how Chrimi is going to react to it, but I'm going to withhold the rest until he says what I believe he is going to say.

You make me laugh.

I have scumhunted, I've found you and you only seem to feed my suspicion.

This is your Day 1 statement to Sland. The problem is that you didn't scumhunt day 1. You waltzed in late. You waited around, picked the easiest, most convenient target, and sat on him for the entire day. You did little investigating. You voted, kicked up dirt, and looked like you were contributing without contributing at all, instead getting the town bogged down in meta discussion and echoing other people's reasons.

Also:

Don't kill om, don't kill asher, and don't kill v2v.

Please, don't.

I can see this post as protecting one or two of your scum buddies. You never explained why you thought the town should not kill om, should not kill me, and should not kill v2v. Explain.

vote hopping isn't a scum-tell, just saying.
Also i'm fine with either a om or slandaar lynch today, their interactions to me seem like at least one of them is scum, om has the edge atm for the gut read arguement. That and i don't know how many votes slandaar has and i don't want to hammer yet.

You constantly repeat this phrase: Vote hoping isn't scummy.
So are you telling us to go find another reason why Slandaar is scum other than Vote Hopping?
Does that imply that he indeed is scum? You know this, therefore you are scum too?

I love shotgun now.

Perfect, putting this post in my notes

And on top of increasing your vote count with empty statements, you play follow the leader. Dr strolls in, says things that make sense that agree with you, and you adopt them. This is your consistent MO throughout the game.

Vote hopping townie for pressure?

Vote hopping isn't applying pressure. Keeping your vote on one person and pressing and pressing is called pressure. Changing your vote every 5 posts is not pressure, it's vote hopping, and doesn't apply much pressure at all.

You post this with a straight face. Then you do this today...

UNVOTE: Thomith
VOTE: Kass

Better get to writing that, Kass.

You have BARELY ever moved your vote this game, even with compelling evidence/claims/etc. Then, at the drop of a hat, you move your vote from Thomith, who you seem to have been tunneling for the past few days, to Kass. Suddenly 2 votes on Thomith is a bad thing? What, fearful that the two mafia will hop on at the last second and bus? Yeah, that's not happening.

So why are you suddenly changing your position? Why do you attack people for voting or not voting or arbitrarily moving their vote when you do the exact same thing.

On a final note, I will learn a lot of info on other people's play regardless of how Chrimi flips. If he's mafia, and I believe he is, great. If he is town, that's going to give even more info.

Town has three strikes before striking out. Surely we can get at least one scum in those three swings.

[asher1611]

I've got some stuff to add but unfortunately my home situation has taken a pretty nasty turn for the worse over the past 24 hours. I'm not dropping or anything, but I haven't had much time to follow up on Chrimi other than to say yes, that was the answer I was expecting.

[asher1611]

I'm going to the movies shortly (drive in woot woot) so I won't be able to flesh this out more until later. So for now I'll only say this:

@Chrimi calling my vote pretty much a "gogogo omg vote" for the sake of voting -- nice try, but you're wrong.

This is a vote based on the totality of circumstances. Day 1 you sat around and then regurgitated other people's points about Slandaar instead of making any sense yourself. Day 1 changing words in someone else's quote (which is grounds for a modkill at a place I used to play) and then doing little with the pressure that was being applied to you. As if you were hoping it would go away on Day 2 -- which fortunately for you it did because of Kondi. Day 3 you propose the town allow nightkills to continue happening because it gives the town more info. That is an incredibly pro mafia post, and you were the first to make it. Day 4 you did respond to my post, but I will get into responding to it in more detail later.

There are other players whose play has been scummy in my eyes, but based on a review of the thread yours is the scummiest.

[asher1611]

Other people's points made sense, there was already plenty of pressure on him.

Also, changing the words was, as I have explained, my way of making my point.

If you don't like it, go whine to the mod.

Nice attempt at redirection.

I don't like it because it's scummy.

[asher1611]

(which is grounds for a modkill at a place I used to play)

IDK, sounds like whining to me.

Once again, nice attempt at redirecting. You seem to continue ignoring my point that I believe it is a scummy move. Your complete failure to address any other point I raise indicates to me that you are making an admission that I am correct by not disputing them.

And to be honest, if you were town I would really think you would be pushing more against this and pushing for a lynch of someone else, someone who you think is scum. You've been on Thom for awhile but have said little as to why you think he is scum except for your gut and then because of his most recent vote. Well, there's enough game tape to substantiate that gut feeling and say more. Enough to make a bigger case. Instead, you look like you're waving the white flag, and in doing so attempting to hide who your last scumbuddy is (fat_tony who is really aggressively pushing to lynch you today without giving too much of his own reasoning) (thomith who you have been voting the entire game).

I'm going back on what I said earlier (I know it makes me look bad if Chrimi is scum, but /meh). I don't think Chrimi is scum here. A few interactions with vijay just seem too obvious.

...now Thomith

Could you point to the interactions in question? Because there were some ones from Day 1 that did look like there was some possible jovial familiarity with them. The kind that could be null or could be a scumtell depending on how you read it.

[asher1611]

Fine, if I can't get my Chrimi lynch then I can go for the next best thing.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thomith

I don't like this vote at all. Don't think I have forgotten about you OMNOM, I haven't.

[asher1611]

Adding numbers in bold to Chrimi's response in post 820 to make my response easier to follow:

#1

They were very strong town reads at the time. However, how om just barely voted me after you did and the such, I'm starting to not like him.

#2

I have been put into a few games with drmyshotgun and I've liked everything he has said in all of them. And if somebody posts some good points, and I can follow the logic and agree, then I simply follow.

#3

No. I had been voting Thomith because he had been rather gut-feeling-scummy, and nobody else had much reason behind a vote that I had noticed. Then kass comes in and follows somebody else's vote, and I hate the troll so I vote him.

#4

Explain how you would get info from me flipping town, please.

#5

I hate it when people support something with "We should lynch somebody soon, so we should at least make it scum." *facepalm*

As I said before, no surprises in any of your responses. Let me go by number then:

#1:

That's fair, and I still don't like Omnom between his Day 1 defensive self metaing and his sheeping behind my reasoning to vote Elmo. (same applies to Kass) pedit: add in his asking me for permission to make decisions he should be able to make himself.

#2:

That's all well and good, but look back over the whole game. The way you justify your votes gives me pause:

Just to point out that kondi joins the wagon on chi without posting his notes

VOTE: Kondi

Don't unvote to wait for his notes, keep your vote on to add pressure to see them.

I don't like that he spent time jumping on a wagon instead of getting his 'notes' together.

That is why I am not his partner.

I was on the wagon that lynched the werewolf.

Happy now?

I look at these two posts in conjunction, and then I look back to the circumstances of your Kondi vote. He had just been knocked off of L-2 because someone wanted to wait for his notes. You line up and immediately plop in your vote simply to add pressure after he voted on you. By itself, some would say it was an opportunistic vote while others would say you were staying consistent with your vote=pressure mantra you have been following the whole game.

But the second post...it just screams "hey guys look I'm town 'k?" in the wrong way. You're defending yourself when from one vote and some general assertions of your scumminess by saying you could not be scum because scum would never vote for each other. They do. All the time.

Your "happy now" at the end is also a further uncharacteristic over reaction. You make it sound as if you have settled the whole argument, when in fact you have merely raised an absolute as a defense. As a result, the post says to me

"nothing to see here, oh by the way I'm hiding something."

#3:

Voting because you hate the troll. We're not playing Trollbasher 5000 we're playing Mafia. So your explanation, to use the technical term, is crap. You're using emotional reasoning to justify a vote when the town really needs to be focused on logical dissemination of the game to weed out the remaining scum. Vote the troll? I don't think the town would be a fan of a Day 4 policy lynch, but you didn't seem to mind before switching your vote back to Thom.

#4:

This one made me guffaw a little bit. This whole game you have been very shortsighted with how people could play mafia, and this is not the first time you have tried to come down on me for thinking long term. So let me put it in these terms: sometimes you have to break a few eggs to get things done. The town can win and mislynch town. So if you were to flip town, everyone can look back at Day 4 and analyze how the town got to a Chrimi lynch. The fact that the town knows I'm the seer is a huge help there.

#5:

You didn't read what I posted. Or you're just attempting to mis-characterize something I said. I'm not rushing for a lynch. You're over reacting to a simple assertion that the game's odds are currently in favor of a town victory.

[asher1611]

Why not? What's so bad about me wanting my second best lynch?

Well, where do I start?

1) We are over 10 days from the dealine, there is plenty of time
2) No one had moved their vote off of Chrimi at L-1 until you did.
3) You changed your vote based on someone else's doubt. Your only doubt was there being no support for a Chrimi lynch when it is still very much a possibility.

I also thought you reacted very poorly to Kass' pressure -- which is saying something because *shocker* that's the first I've seen Kass truly contribute to this game in more than 1 or 2 post bursts.

If you want I can move it back to Chrimi.

Oh goodie, trying to make your vote look good by getting the blessing of the confirmed townie to vote for X player.

FOS Om of the Nom

(who until this point, for how many weeks now, I have been misreading his name as "Om to the Nom")

[asher1611]

The Chrimi wagon was stalling and making the game stagnate, what's so wrong with me changing my vote to get some more activity?

Because the brakes getting thrown on the game at L-1 tells me the scum doesn't want to make the next move and that we are on the right track.

It's not about the quantity of activity. It's about the quality.

[asher1611]

as this has stagnated

i am willing to hammer

if nobody else has anything to say.

How th hell did i miss this post. too much isoing I guess.

Does make Om's vote change look worse though.

[asher1611]

Two targets, two votes. Two non votes, and two people V/LA for a pretty significant period of time.

Looks like it's time to start diagramming the vote movement to see what I can get from that? Since it looks like we have some time before the day resolves itself?

And a no lynch leads to no night kill. So this stalemate will have to resolve itself at some point.

[asher1611]

I really hate doing this with the game so far in. I haven't been able to give the game the energy I wanted to this past week and now I won't be able to give it any attention at all.


Last week my wife got her termination notice at work. We have a 5 month old to support at home.
Today I got my two weeks notice at my job. When it rains it pours.

Mafia has to take a back seat.

request a replacement

[asher1611]

So sad I had to drop out, but great job town! Look forward to skimming through the QTs when I have a chance.

Was wrong about Chrimi. Oh well. Was right about Om Nom from the start though. Good job carrying the day. Hopefully my play as seer helped the town more than hurt it -- we had a dominating victory, so I guess it helped.

Was so close to seering Kondi on night 1 though. The reason I didn't was because the post that drew the most suspicion to me was one that was direct at me or about me. I should have trusted my gut better.

[asher1611]

And after looking at dead topic: I was super worried that I had overplayed my hand calling out Slandaar's fake claim day one. Looks like Slandaar was the only one who noticed. I was shocked when I wasn't killed night 1.

[asher1611]

btw would still like to see the wolf thread.

[asher1611]

I lol'd at all the Seer claiming this game.

btw i claim seer.

and asher i thought it was weird but thought you could just be a wolf but that was the only tell i had so i just ingored it. (next time someone counters you and you dont fullclaim don't do a 180, it makes it a little obvious )

Yeah I thought I handled Kondi's claim better day 2 by raising doubt instead of going all out attack mode.