Open 419 Diffusion of Power - Game Over

[Hellraiser]

'sup everyone. I'll just read through this game and then we'll get the party started.

[Hellraiser]

Before you do that, could you tell us if you got a guilty result on N3?

Nah.

[Hellraiser]

PS: This is a serious question. Should everyone claim what they are the day after their specific night? Ex, a N1 cop claims on Day2?

Oh for fucks sake. "Hey let's all claim when we've used our shots so scum can kill the PRs". Also why the fuck do you feel the need to emphasize that it's a serious question?

Considering that they're only able to use it on that specific night, I don't see why not. I don't think they should sit on their result for longer than one day cycle, anyways.

Oh my god.

I would also suggest that, should a cop and doc have the same night, they should both claim (or at least make their claims easy for each other to deduce, and then the doc auto-protects the cop. Do note this ONLY applies if a cop and doc share the same night, as that should garauntee an investigation. If the doc in question shows him/herself to be particularly townie I suppose it's not bad to risk them not shooting the cop.

What the fuck? What the fuck?

Cops and docs should only claim if they have a result that makes claiming worthwhile.

Keep in mind a claim means "you can kill somebody else, I've already spent my shot".

Thank god for sanity.

Also, I only care for it to be considered IF AND ONLY IF we ever have a cop and doc with the same night. It allows for a garaunteed investigation (scum can't shoot the cop because of the doc protect). Or what, exactly, are you objecting to?

Cop goes "I'm the cop, any doc here?". Silence. Cop: "Oh fuck".
Wait, I have an alternative too. Cop: "I'm the cop etc. etc." Maf: "Cop too". Only doc: "Oh fuck".

That's why I suggested they try not to outright claim to everyone else, though I admit that's a problem for that suggestion.

So you want the cop and the doc to magically find each other without anyone else noticing? Scum are supposed to try looking town y'know.

- Don't see why we would want everyone that works on a specific night to claim, the chances aren't in our favor really. There's also the chance that a N1 cop would claim and a scum would claim N1 doc and the cop would end up dead, or a N1 cop would claim and no N1 doc would claim because there wasn't one. These are things we should consider, and that scum can always potentially lie themselves into the claim. Maybe not as a doctor because then a dead cop would put them to the noose, but a claimed cop maybe, and claim that a innocent townie turned up as mafia. Really, this will be a interesting game because claims will probably run rampant at one point or another. ( This is my prediction. )

What did I replace into?

Also

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Voided

Bandwagoning, pressuring, pushing a lynch, etc etc...

This guy is even scummier though. I mean look at his reasons. Look at them.

I read the thread.

I just didn't pay much attention to it :V

nonononono

Too many words lol.

This guy. Don't be this guy.

Voided's idea is bad and the fact that he claims he answered the question about how doc+cops with simultaneous nights would even know such a thing, is weird.

Scum. Scum everywhere. I refuse to believe my eyes.

lotsa stuff

This guy might be the best out of a bad bunch this far. He's wrong though.

So we claiming guys?

Yes. Yes we are. Now RTFT.

Shut the fuck up with the claiming ideas. Nobody claims. There is absolutely no benefit to town for somebody claiming any role right now, be it D1 cop or N5 doc.

Basically this.

I'll start participating once the claiming talk stops. See you then

Fuck you.

Okay, perfect.
Now we can finally start proper discussion.

Iceguy: Do you have any reads on anyone yet?

hahahahaha

Why do you think Voided is scum?

HAHAHAHAHA

My vote for Voided was random, but to keep some pressure on him(at least until the action picks up here) I will leave my vote be.

Because we all know pressure votes are best when you tell the victim so. "I vote you just because I'm too afraid to pick any enemies".

Haven't my actions already heavily implied I didn't pay attention to anything that anyone not-me has said up till now?
tl;dr, no I don't have a read on anyone.

I think I hate you. 3 pages. Too much to read.

Lol.
I've been known to not read shit as town.
As scum I'm more concerned with keeping up appearences, so I would probably have read it.
But I seriously cannot be fucked.

Can we all laugh at you now?

I don't think you're scummy. I think you're annoying.

Uh no.

stuff

"Let's take a non-committal stand here so I don't get enemies. Of course we shouldn't lynch guy A because he discussed theory, we should go for someone else. If that fails we can always go for guy A." I cross my fingers and guess that this guy is town though. This guy is more scared newb than scared scum. Also Dayne's town, for whatever reason. Don't ask.

Just so I am clear, Iceguy, were you voting Om just out of frustration? You hinted that it may have been for a deeper reason.

Mostly out of frustration, but also to see how he'd act. While first gut instinct is that he reacted scummy, I'll probably pull up meta to check whether this was typical for him.

Bad idea no. 1. You don't simply meta someone who defended himself with self-meta on page 3.

I guess right now I am weary of either Iceguy or Dayne trying to turn a bad idea into a clearly scum idea. I wanted to keep my vote on Voided as this dynamic was explored, and to keep pressure on Voided, but I feel like we are in the early stages of manipulation here.

Fencesitting 2.0.

- Just curious, you think it would be a good or townie thing should have Voided pushed his bad plan? You know, he is trying to make us believe in a bad plan but you would say he is townie because he believes in it. True or no?

Bad does not equal scum (case in point, you).

- This explains nothing, and rather seems like a fluff post that shows nothing of what you are actually thinking. Since you say nothing but rather just support what someone else, in this case IceGuy, has said, you are techincally sheeping what they have said.

I feel bad for this guy, he's trying so hard and this is the kind of posts that he achieves.

- Not saying YOU are wrong about Voided, i am saying the case you guys have against him is not strong enough for a lynch. But if it makes your poor soul feel better, i will back off and let you do your thing?

Oh noes, I can't stop quoting him!

Btw, Scott vs. Venmar is town-town.

Unvote
Vote: DeltaWave

I take back everything I've said before, this guy is terrible too.

Fair enough

Unvote
Vote: Venmar

I'd love to see this guy and omnomnom in a hydra. It would be the worst thing that had happened to this earth since Hunter S. Thompson committed suicide.

Thinking about it, there's a big difference though. Birds and stones is probs town while omnomnom is probs scum.

This 2bird/Delta dynamic seems very contrived, 2bird why would you put a vote on Delta like that just to take it off of him? Also please explain more your vote for Venmar. Please give me more then the tiny quote you brought up.

This guy is saying the things I'm thinking but I don't like the way he say it in. It's almost as fake as Amy Lumet's tits.

Woah, it's okay to wagon Voided based on one quote (i.e., the terrible plan), but voting Venmar based on one quote isn't?

Um, are you his partner?

"Why should I not kill the president when Lee Harvey Oswald did?"

- So. You are/were against Voided because of one thing, and now you are attacking me because of one thing. But you think that someone who is on the Voided wagon, a wagon you supported, is scum, but when you look at me, no. I also like how you are attacking FuDuzn because he is disagreeing with you. Are you going to do this to everyone who thinks of disagreeing with you or hinting a defense for the people you are attack?

Finally a post that I don't want to headbutt a stone for. It's a shame you're wrong.

Yay wagons
VOTE: 2b1s
I agree 2b1s' reaction and subsequent OMGUS were super duper terribad. He made like a really weak attack on him just because he voted for him.

Also this just motivated me to do something in this game. After I catch up in my other games I'll see if I can ISO 2b1s and find more suspicious shit.

Fuck this shit.

Make a case on all of them.

"Episode VI: Return of the hypocrite"

My posts get longer as the game progresses.

nope.jpg

- I was giving you what i believed to be my self-meta. So you should take it as such.

CAN EVERYONE STOP WITH THE FUCKING SELF-META PLZ?

stuff

Feeling a bit better about Voidedmafia now... this game is confusing as hell though with 50% scum and 50% idiots.

catch-up post

Let's mark this guy down as town too.

- To me it is a null-tell. White-knighting can be used by both town and scum, and in my case i am town. Since it can lean both ways you cannot say that white-knighting is an instant scum-tell, i've seen it used by town before, and it is being used by a town in this game as well, me. It's nice that you used it to catch scum, but that, in my opinion, does not automatically make me scum.

...shit was SO cash.

hi again, ScumArthur!

Ohai!

Landing scum is what I do best

Don't write that as town. Never write that as town.

Ugh... Dayne is not firmly in the town-column yet. He's not the scummiest in this bunch though.

It also could have been a sub-conscious feeling i had that made me say that over and over again.

This is really awkward and it makes me want to put you in my lynch pool for saying it. Pinning it on your subconscious is a new one.

Yeah, this really. I tend to overanalyze stuff but shit, Venmar ain't town yet. I think I gave him a newb pass too early.

What's the case on 2B1S?

absent101 is classy yet again.

This is the most convincing case for voidedmafia being scum that has been laid out thus far. That being said, I still think a mountain is being made out of a molehill. Disagreements in a theory argument can happen just as much in an MD thread as they can in a game thread. If you were discussing this strategy for this setup in MD, you wouldn't find voidedmafia scummy for stating it.

Too much fencesitting.

How is it annoying and distracting?

Fuck off.

Well.

10/10 would vomit again.

I get everyone else's votes, but seriously, have you played a game with me where I haven't OMGUSed everyone and called scumteams for trivial reasons?

Ugh... hate to say it but this guy will need to be lynched sooner or later. This guy and Om of the Nom.

Hmm. Can't tell if those attacking me are scum, or town.

Regardless, self-meta in defense is scummy and apparently IceGuy says it's not even accurate, so go ahead with the hammer IMO.

Why does everyone seem to ignore Om of the Nom's equally scummy use of self-meta?

VOTE: 2B1S
Fuck this.

OK I guess, would've preferred Om of the Nom though if we're talking possible VI's possible scum.

Bah. Okay, most likely there's scum on all wagons.

Quality post right there. Yet another lurker who I wouldn't mind dying.

And so, how about that quicklynch-fishing by absta yesterday. Discuss.

I think he's scum for camping his vote on me, even though he was around lynch time, but couldn't commit to a wagon.

This is a dishonest post. It's a post from someone who is trying so hard to look active that his face shares its color with a lobster.

No, I had a possible scum read on FuD due to post #89, but due to Iceguy falling into my latest trap that I set out..

Noooope!

You guys must have been acting stupid to have lynched someone without me here *annoyed* D:<

Anyway, gutty gut gut gut tells me Mala is scum. I like this wagon.
VOTE: Malakittanz
From what I've been getting from her posts, she isn't really committing to any of her reads. Plus she's showing a large amount of hesitance to vote until she gets a strong scumread (which at this rate will probably never happen). She spends a lot of time waffling too.

How surprising that one would see omnomnom bandwagonning. OWAI-

Waffling for me is a town read off my meta. Kkthx. <3

Lulz.

So, it's better logic to assume that all of the scum team is on ONE wagon rather than mixed together between two and possibly 3. If we all were guided by that logic then it would be dumb not the other way around. Having them all on one wagon is a very easy way to expose themselves when one is lynched. >.>

It's poor logic to assume anything about scum placement on wagons, especially with such limited information.

This guy. This guy is town.

giving logical reason

artifical and fake

I lol'd.

^ That last sentence doesn't make much sense.

It seems like you're jumping on wagons and giving logical reason to justify your voting so you don't look like you're voting blindly, but at the same time the reasons you give seem artifical and fake, and it looks like you're just being opportunistic.

Why are Scott's reasons artificial and fake? I ask because Scott is town as fuck.

I like DeltaWave. He seems earnest in a way that's hard to fake as scum.

DAY TWO WITH TWO TOWN FLIPS

U mad brosius?

Why has this not happened yet?

That's a good question. There's too much fucking noise in here, I'm beginning to forget my suspects.

- Ok, i found three posts in my ISO that could possibly hint what you are talking about in this quote.

Post #54 - I did not prod Shotgun to post more in this post at all. Insteadi told him to reread the thread and he should get the answer to his "question".

Post #95 - Here i asked Voided to come in and share his thoughts. While i did kind of tell him to post, it was for a good reason. The discussion was heavily placed partly on him and his feedback seemed like a given.

Post #121 - This is true, i will give you that.

Instead of trying to argue that your behavior isn't scummy you try to explain it away?

- This is stupid. Why?

1. I never wanted to vote Voided. If you read the thread a little bit closely, you would see that I wasn't going against Voided, I war rather kind of defending him. I never showed interest in voting for him so i never actually hesistated to vote for someone i never want to vote for in the first place.

2. I already explained why i was hesitant to vote for Scott. I said I thought that what i brought up in-thread about him is and was not enough to vote or lynch him. I think i should have put a vote down to pressure the guy, but i never saw him as a scummy person but more of someone who was being unhelpful and mostly sheeping by just making empty posts saying " Yup ", or " I agree ".

3. I made a post regarding 2bird and i explained my case on him. Read that.

Same thing again. I'm beginning to get bad vibes here.

Chainsaw defense ahoy.

Is there any indication why you consider Mala town?

Calling chainsaw defence without a flip. Nice attempt at making me look bad.
1. The Mala waggon grew way too fast.
2. The lack of good reasons for votes.

I see post #199 as harmless town speculation. What do you see?

This is a surprisingly good post from Mr. Lurker. I've been trying to avoid commenting at Mala lately because I'm undecided but I can really see why he thinks the things he thinks. Having said that I can't say I agree with his attack on Scott though.

Kinda, I haven't really been paying attention to exactly what she's saying, but I could probably make a case if I could be bothered to.

...

I am trying to give this game a quick read through so I can get back into it, but I also notice that Delta doesn't want to tell me why Scott is town as fuck. What's the hold up?

Just can it already. FuDuzn is trying so hard to not push himself in a corner that he's starting to levitate above the crowd. That's not a good sign.

Why is this such a sticking point for you?

To give y'all an example this is exactly why I think DeltaWave's town. He thinks what I thinks and he expresses it in a town way.

Interesting that I asked SAD a question, he ducked it, I reiterated the question and it looks like some people are stalling for him now.

I could go for Dayne with two out of Venmar/FuDuzn/Omnomnom.

I don't have an issue with you questioning Dayne, but I hate when people make reads on players without giving a good reason. And then won't even back it up when prodded about it.

Pretty much this.

Your jump to "peoplz are stalling for him!" is duly noted.

Vote: Deltawave

Aw christ. Are you reading the same game as I do? Moreover, how can DeltaWave be your biggest scum read based on that?

So what was the vote for? Generally you vote someone you think is scum, not someone who is being anti-town.

So I'm agreeing with Omnomnom. Fuck my life.

I already stated that I feel Scott is showing signs of scum by not making his own cases or own opinions. Both are commonly a scum trait and it doesn't sit well with me. I already gave you concrete facts on both. Try reading my posts

I'm getting a good feeling out of Mala now. I think she just panicked earlier in the day when she got all the votes.

Still on V/LA.

FuD and/or Scott are scum on the Mala wagon.

And I could sheep ConfidAnon into voting Venmar (infact, if we can proxy votes, I would give my vote to him).

Terrible post for a couple of reasons. So you say that FuDuzn and Scott are scum. Why the fuck don't you give a single reason? And are you trying to tell me that it's a pure coincidence that the two most suspected players on that wagon also are your top scum reads?

The bottom line is even more terrible, you have a town read on ConfidAnon that is strong enough for you to pledge your vote to him but when I reread you haven't mentioned him once before. What the fuck man? What the fuck?

Yea, I have pretty strong townreads. I'm not going to lie, sometimes I have horrible scumreads. But I usually nail townies. And I'm pretty confident that Mala is town.

5 bucks that Dayne will go "heh, obvtown" if Mala is ever lynched. Great way to distance yourself from the main wagon, man. You've given little to no reasons either.

Yes Dayne, but you were speaking in absolutes. Wagon analysis would be looking at both flips and saying if scum then so and so is scummy, but if town then so and so is scummy. To me that says you know how the flip will go, I don't like that.

This guy is so careful in his use of language that it hurts. I guess I'll meta him later but I don't like it all. He takes every single word in absolute consideration and he's very fucking afraid of being seen as scummy.

Please don't tell me how to scum hunt it took me games and games on the other site to get where I am and finally mastered it.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-

Vote: MalaKittens

Venmar comes in with a terrible hammer.

Oh, wait, I did the same error as CES. A bit less terrible then I suppose.

Om of the Nom, Town Cop, has been killed.

Lolwut? That guy was a gift from god to scum.

If i haven't made it obvious yet, i got a guilty on FuDuzn.

Wooooshhhh.

Or actually I should ask, why choose me to force the town to mislynch?

I briefly went through FuDuzn's ISO.
He never said he was suspicious of me...
Ummm??

Stop justifying yourself! It's things like this that rubs me completely the wrong way. I believe that FuDuzn's guilty, no reason to fake a guilty this early, but I still definitely think that he might be bussing.

IceGuy is second scum. Great guys, we are on a roll.

I can see Venmar as newbscum believing that he would be conftown after faking a guilty. Now he's panicking due to IceGuy not raising him to the skies.

And you're desperately trying to push this lynch extremely quickly before anybody has second thoughts, such as that both of you might be scum, or other claims.

I agree with this. I was beginning to forget IceGuy but he's really becoming a big town read again. This kind of posts are pro-town.

Having said that, if FuDuzn doesn't get lynched today I'll tore everyone here to fucking pieces.

You continue to ignore this. You continue to have no case.

I agree. Dayne is trying hard to go with the flow here.

Highly doubtful that this is some epic gambit and both are scum.

Why? And why do you call it an "epic" gambit? I would call it a fairly standard gambit that we should really expect in this setup.

Ladies and gentlemen: Venmar - FuDuzn - absta101, the scum team.

Switch absent with Dayne and I'm happy with that team.

I'm guilty for ignoring questions?

Yes. There's no town motivation at all to dodge those questions.

I'm not really getting a grip on Voided... he's reasonable I guess but he's also an experienced player and that page 1 strategy still irks me the wrong way. In any case I guess I have bigger suspects though.

- Why are people so hung up on Delta's "town as fuck" comment about Scott? It seems pretty obvious he got an innocent check on him. Or at least that's what it looks like to me.

Don't fucking mention it then! We want scum to have a little info as possible.

- Not answering that until you answer my previous question better. That was not a valid answer to my question.

Holy fuck, Venmar's way too confident for my liking.

For later reference:

2birds1stone

- 7(

Malakittens

, DeltaWave, Venmar,

Voidedmafia

,

Om of the Nom

,

IceGuy

, absta101)
Venmar - 4(

2birds1stone

, ConfidAnon, Ser Arthur Dayne, Scott Brosius)
Ser Arthur Dayne - 2(absta101,

FuDuzn

)

Malakittens

- 6(

IceGuy

,

FuDuzn

,

Om of the Nom

, Scott Brosius, absta101, Venmar)
Scott Brosius - 1(

Malakittens

)

FuDuzn

- 1(Ser Arthur Dayne)
Venmar - 1(ConfidAnon)
DeltaWave - 1(

Voidedmafia

)

Makes me want to kill Dayne with fire. That combined bussing and lynch-avoiding ain't fun.

VOTE: IceGuy
I don't like how he is pushing for Venmar even though FuDuzn turned out to be scum.

Aw c'mon. I'm sure you're better than this.

I think Iceguy might be going for too scummy to be scum? Not wanting to quicklynch guilty-confirmed scum, pushing on a cop (assuming Ven is telling the truth, which I am pretty sure he is), etc...

I don't want to live on this earth any more.

I would have preferred an investigation on Dayne, that would have made this a lot simpler.

I would also like someone to investigate Dayne. Probably for other reasons than you though.

Or why can’t he just be a cop who got a guilty on a scum?

Or why can't he just be scum bussing? You're going in circles here, Dayne, and not once do you explain

why

you think the things you think.

UNVOTE:
I don't remember why I voted her. I haven't been paying much attention to this game.

If anyone still doubts that Scott is town after this, you need to lay off the drink

Yeah, town thing of Scott to bring up. Still, obviously not true.

I'm intentionally not commenting further on this because frankly there's not a lot to say. Absent101 acted weird this game and I can't say I'm that impressed by him but apparently he wasn't scum. I have no idea why he did what he did.

So, there.

I had him as a null read before that, but I believe that his behavior yesterday and today was/is very scummy. What made me think of the gambit was not just the claim, but mainly Venmar's behavior. He doesn't play like a cop who got a guilty.

Partly what I'm trying to say too. Way too self-confident for my liking, mainly.

Why would ConfidAnon make sense as my partner at all? If we were to pull off this "gambit", why would he have tried to buss me both day 1 and day 2?

Bussing does not equal willingness to lynch you. I can see multiple ways for you to be scum together, hypothetically at least.

No idea though why I'm even mentioning this because ConfidAnon gave me a pretty strong town read. Natalie hasn't really been obvtown but I think ConfidAnon's play is enough for me to focus on other suspects instead.

- Funny, you think i am scum but still expect me to scumhunt? I thought scum couldn't scumhunt...

Scum-driven line of thought. You're supposed to explain how you're scumhunting, there's five more guys here y'know.

- This is so hilarious, because I think a counterclaim was exactly what you were wishing for last day phase by hoping someone counterclaims by saying they got a guilty on me or innocent on FuDuzn. You sounded pretty desperate for one of the two, ignoring the fact that cop would have to be N2 or a N1. Even in that case, it looks like Delta was from N1. Did you just screw up your logic?

I disagree. IceGuy wanted to wait for everybody, but that's it. You, on the other hand... I would say that you sounded pretty desperate, afraid that someone would have a guilty on you.

FOR GETTING A GUILTY ON A SCUM AND CAUSING HIS LYNCH.

Are you being an idiot on purpose?

Looks like town, sadly.

Because there was virtually no reason to do it besides earning towncred.

"There's no reason to lynch scum besides winning the game". Get a fucking grip, gambits exists.

VOTE: Ser Arthur Dayne

I could also go for Venmar as a compromise but despite my ridiculous amount of posts on him (ze NOISE) I do find Dayne scummier and more of a safe bet.

[Hellraiser]

Is that the only thing you have to say? Instead of contributing, instead of answering a single point of mine... that's what you post. Oh yeah, I can sense your fear. But don't worry - I'll come for you later.

[Hellraiser]

Aww... you're cute. Can I take you home?

The thing here, Venmar, is that we haven't even argued once. Despite that you refuse to refute my points because I... uh, suspect you?

[Hellraiser]

Nope. In fact I can't recall you making one fucking valid point in this entire game. You know that you can't defend yourself adequately so you decide to stereotype me and resort to the cheap excuse of guessing that I will disagree with you (sic!).

Mafia is a game of arguing. If you have no intent to argue, why are you then playing this game?

[Hellraiser]

I still don't see why Venmar would do what he did if he were scum. I understand that he gets town cred, but FuDuzn had no pressure and was not going to be lynched. If Venmar did do this, then his other scumbuddy must be close to conftown, and there isn't anybody on the playerlist that fits that description.

That he gets town cred is good enough for him! With a normal, perhaps slightly-below-average player list this gambit would work perfectly (I toyed a bit with the idea of Venmar having a more experienced scum partner but I quickly realized that probably even Dayne would see the benefit of that gambit). Damn, it was close to working too before first IceGuy and then I saw the real purpose behind that fake-guilty. For me this was essentially null - I think that it's 50/50 if he's town or this is a gambit if we only look at the claim situation - but his reactions, his way over-confident play gives me the feeling of scum disappointed because he didn't get the conftown status he expected.

[Hellraiser]

His way over-confident play also seems like over-excited town as well.

Close, but not close enough. I don't think he would have that kind of arrogance and that anger when getting suspected if he was town. The other things I can accept as over-excited town but not his arrogance. I think that's a heavy scum tell. Add to that his previous behaviour and yeah - I think I've caught scum.

Hello? Is anyone still there?

Yeah, me. But CES, feel free to mass prod. We really need some activity here.

[Hellraiser]

IceGuy trying to slow down the game for reasons i knew were not possible hit me on a different level as a cop just made me ticked off.

He was trying to ensure that ConfidAnon didn't have a guilty on you, which was unlikely but of course still possible. If you had been innocent you wouldn't have had anything to fear. Everyone, even IceGuy had agreed to lynch FuDuzn, he just wanted to wait until everyone had checked in.

[Hellraiser]

Hellraiser, do you buy into Ice's conspiracy theory or do you find Venmar scummy for other reasons?

Well, both. This is all clear in my text wall, just Ctrl+F Venmar if you're a lazy bastard.

[Hellraiser]

Oh, and in case it's not obvious where they are coming from, their second "suspect" and other possible lynch is the second person who agrees with Venmar ( Natalie )

I'm not sure if you're referring to me here (I think you are though) but in any case my primary suspect is Dayne followed by you.

But yeah, I gotta agree with IceGuy once more. There's no case on either me or IceGuy which makes this push look scum driven.

@IceGuy, what do you think about Dayne?

[Hellraiser]

Would you be ready to vote him at deadline?

[Hellraiser]

The Truth is, Scott and Delta are town, and if they can bring up a better lynch target, i'm with them.

Look at yourself. Look how terrible you are.

Yeah, feel ashamed.

[Hellraiser]

Just to show my good will I'll provide a translation to the rest of the crowd.

Venmar: "I want to lynch IceGuy and Hellraiser since they suspect me but if that doesn't work I'll sheep Scott or Delta. I know that... whoops, I think that they're town and so does everyone else so if I agree with them no one can blame me when we lynch a town-aligned player".

@IceGuy Alright, the reason that I'm asking is because you probably won't get a Venmarlynch. Scott and Delta will have to reread and if they choose to pile up on either Natalie or Dayne that person will have to be my choice at least.

[Hellraiser]

Just to be clear, the persons I want to lynch are Dayne, Venmar and Natalie, in decreasing order. I won't vote Scott, Delta or IceGuy no matter what happens.

[Hellraiser]

But really, I think we have a better chance to hit scum on Dayne than on Natalie, I don't think Venmar and Natalie would buddy this hard if they were the scum team and I think I'm 66% on Venmar compared to Natalie. Natalie looks a bit too much like a VI for my liking and ConfidAnon was a pretty strong town read of mine.

[Hellraiser]

No, but I'd prefer taking out scum over taking out VI's.

[Hellraiser]

It's only one mislynch until LyLo, this ain't no time for some kind of compromise policy lynch.

PEdit: He's pretty obviously thinking that Natalie is scum Venmar, nice try to twist his words around there. He shouldn't be trying to convince me with that argument though.

[Hellraiser]

Not a misrep. You are willing to lynch Natalie regardless if she is scum or not, and that's bad.

That's not what you said in your last post.

Besides, that's faulty logic. He thinks that Natalie is scum so your accusation holds no ground. One could argue that he's got terrible policies but that's hardly indicative of alignment.

[Hellraiser]

I'd like to see IceGuy respond to my #652 though.

PEdit: Read my earlier post Venmar. That's not indicative of alignment and if you're going for a policy lynch on him for that you're by definition just as horrible.
PEdit 2: There's a difference. I'm not answering for him because I think you're wrong, I'm answering for him because I think your thoughts are scum driven.
PEdit 3 (holy fuck): WIFOM, but I get the gist of what you're saying. I'd like to see you provide a case though - to convince the rest of the town if nothing else.

[Hellraiser]

Would you be willing to move onto Hellraiser? I am strangely confident IceGuy/Hellraiser are the scumteam, but would prefer voting IceGuy.

If I was scum with Venmar, I wouldn't make it so obvious.

Also this - hypocrisy noted.

Or am I wrong in thinking that you suspect me because I agree with IceGuy?

PEdit: Yeah, I know. I mostly want specific comments on Natalie based on my points. Nothing you can spare?

[Hellraiser]

Where did I say I was going to turn it into a Policy Lynch? Having intent to lynch town players is not a town mindset.

That depends. Usually not, but policy lynches are exempt from that rule for self-explanatory reasons.

I don't actually give a damn what you think my motives are, or what you think of me, but I know I am town so your guess is wrong.

You should if you are town. Mafia is a game based on arguing. If you're going to be in this game you'll have to argue why I'm wrong. You're free to avoid me in future games but for the sake of everyone you better hide your prejudices in this game.

PEdit: Alright. Thanks I guess. I don't agree that policy lynching this late is playing to a town wincon (I think it's pretty stupid) but I can't say I find it that scummy either.
PEdit 2: It's time to start contributing Venmar. That kind of posts are entirely useless.

[Hellraiser]

Even if you

think she's not scum

, she's still a good lynch because she shouldn't be in LyLo.

- The bolded hints she would be town, so the rest of the sentence is in the PoV that she is town. You never mentioned her being a Scum VI in this post.

I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that he didn't say that. In that post he's trying to convince me to vote Natalie. He's not trying to convince himself and he's not outlining the reasons why he suspects her.

Yeah, I think that you're trying to blatantly misrep IceGuy and I think you're scum for doing that.

[Hellraiser]

Iceguy, want to do a 1v1.

I consider this to be a minor towntell.

[Hellraiser]

@Hellraiser
Well you guys weren't buddying as heavily back when I thought you were scum together. Now I am thinking it is IceGuy and someone else.

In fact you're flip-flopping all over the place.

A Hellraiser/IceGuy scumteam seems almost too good to be true.

@Venmar
Would you be willing to move onto Hellraiser? I am strangely confident IceGuy/Hellraiser are the scumteam, but would prefer voting IceGuy.

There's only 16 posts between those two and they were all filler.

Then you said what you just said just two pages later. Besides, if your case on IceGuy is this:

I am voting you for trying to get a cop who got a guilty on scum lynched. I don't believe your gambit explanation. I think you are scum who is trying to get out an obvious townie lynched.

Why do you then suspect IceGuy instead of me?

[Hellraiser]

@IceGuy
No, scum would get called out for not posting content. But I believe I have posted content.

I do not agree with this either. Since your catch-up post you've mostly agreed with Venmar without adding anything yourself and your only case on IceGuy is that he's trying to lynch Venmar.

I'm also at a loss about what you think of everyone else. I ISO'd you and there's no mention of what you think about either Scott, Delta or Dayne which is something one would expect if you think that the scum team is "IceGuy and someone else".

[Hellraiser]

I think Delta and Scott are town. SED is null, but could easily be scum.

Doesn't the fact that you have town reads on me, Delta, Scott and Venmar make Dayne scum by process of elimination?

PEdit: Get a fucking grip Venmar. This is not EpicMafia. It's days until the deadline.

[Hellraiser]

Btw, @Venmar: Who do you think IceGuy's partner in crime is?

[Hellraiser]

So, let's assume Natalie is a town-VI, as you claim. LyLo with Natalie means a LyLo with Natalie, you and a town player. Natalie thinks you're confirmed town, so she votes the town player. Town loses.

LyLo without Natalie means two town players and you. If one of the two town players votes the other, you can quickhammer and win, making town lose. If they both vote for you, town wins.

So if you think Natalie is a town-VI, not lynching her means autoloss for town. Lynching her means a possibility to win.

That logic is flawed if the alternative to lynching Natalie is lynching a scum player.

PEdit:

Alright. I propose that we lynch Dayne then, since most seem to suspect him anyway. Wouldn't that be a good compromise?

Also Venmar, a few words of advice. You should listen to IceGuy since he's more experienced than you are. He know what he's talking about. The reason I consider your willingness to enter an 1v1 a towntell is because it seems earnest, not because it's a good idea. IceGuy is right, it's been proved conclusively in those 10 years that 1v1's are terrible.

Btw, chill the fuck out. You've crossed the line more than a couple of times and your arrogance does not benefit anyone here.

[Hellraiser]

Good Job Sherlock, without your KEEN, IMPENETRABLE, AWESOME skills, I wouldn't have realized.

Your post was also fluff. A+

It was by definition not fluff, since he pointed out something scummy about your post. And why would you knowingly post fluff anyway? It's only anti-town.

[Hellraiser]

That's not playing to a town win-con either. If people weren't willing to compromise there would never be lynches.

[Hellraiser]

I've already said above that I was not talking about situations where you can lynch scum over town - in that case, it's obvious. Venmar was claiming it can

never

be beneficial to lynch town.

I'm sorry, looks like I've misinterpreted you the whole time then.

All the more of a reason to drop that then, if it's just a theory discussion. In this case I think we have clearer chances to hit scum than Natalie and you looked earlier like you was trying to get me to policy lynch her.

[Hellraiser]

I was making an argument from your perspective in the hope of getting you to compromise on Natalie.

Yes, but you used the reason that she was a VI. I have bigger suspects which means that it would be a policy vote if I voted her. Do you understand what I'm trying to say now?

[Hellraiser]

See, this shit is exactly why I'm voting you. Instead of scumhunting, instead of actually contributing you post that. I'm not going to rewrite my case on you because YOU are too lazy to push down Ctrl and F at the same time. Everything is in the catch-up post regardless if you like it or not. That's my entire case and unlike you I don't consider it thin¹. Try responding to my points there and maybe, just maybe, I'll give you something more to work with.

And why are you not commenting on the action in the last few pages? Instead of doing that you continue with your famed active lurking, this time flavored with a large healthy chunk of good ol' OMGUS. In fact your pathetic attempts at saving your own ass goes to the length of

trying to dismiss a case without being able to rebut a single point

(sic!).

Ah yes Dayne, the lynch mob is getting closer. I hope you're scared.

¹A thing dawned on me afterwards and I found no good way to integrate it into the text. My case can not even be considered thin by a pathological liar. I just rechecked it to be sure that I didn't accidentally delete half of it before posting. I didn't.

In fact it's the most solid case yet laid down in this entire game.

Who's the desperate one here?

[Hellraiser]

@Scott, does your reasons for voting me extend past Absent's lolgambitnowaitactuallynot?

[Hellraiser]

Mod: I'll be completely without access between July 31 and August 2.

[Hellraiser]

Heh, you're all fucking idiots. I'm this close to punching my screen.

.000001% of hitting scum on that lynch, I'd say.

[Hellraiser]

I can just as easily jump on Helldude... but I would be voting with Scott and Delta (not that voting with Venmar and Natalie is much better )

mfw

[Hellraiser]

The lowest possible chance of hitting scum on Ice is 25%, it's as high as 50%

Nah. Same chance hitting scum on him as on me - I could've misread my role PM.

[Hellraiser]

Btw, the failure to lynch Dayne is appalling. That cheeky scumfuck.

[Hellraiser]

And the attitude here makes me shiver. This fucking idiotic, rude lunacy from at least 3 persons in here - which means that at least 1 of them is town. It fucks up my scum reads and makes me take this game on a way too personal level. I can't fucking take this any more.

Ah well, whatever. We'll have to hope that IceGuy is scum ( ) and I know which ones to go for tomorrow, if I'm left alive that is. You know who you are. Prepare yourself because I won't show any mercy.

[Hellraiser]

Oh yeah, sure. Let's see what he flips.

[Hellraiser]

it was right of ice to point out that venmar's guilty could be a gambit, but he latched onto that argument and never let go. that's enough to put him in a lynchable pool. it's not the best lynch we could have had but it's not the worst.

And why did he do that?

Because he got undeserved flak right from the start for that and the one who voted him never let that go.

Furthermore, I disagree with you. This is the single worst lynch we could've had except for my own.

[Hellraiser]

Definitely, Venmar's probscum. Have you read this thread?

[Hellraiser]

And you still thought it was a good idea to hammer? :/

I'll have to admit though that this is one of the reasons why I think you're town, that you're honest about this.

[Hellraiser]

A million bucks on Dayne

Why would I kill the person I would've most likely went for today?

Also, if you're a cop with an innocent (that is, an innocent on one of the players currently alive) you should prob claim.

I feel so bad for you. It must be terrible to be this bad.

This is LyLo. While I was ready to compromise yesterday I won't do so today. If nothing astonishing happens I'll vote for Dayne.

[Hellraiser]

The last time you mentioned Absta/Hell, he was "null", what changed?

A great gust of POE hit.

Sure, sure. Are you really that desperate?

The last time you mentioned Absta/Hell, he was "null", what changed?

A great gust of POE hit.

- Not much of an explanation really, doesn't hold much water in my eyes.

- Still debating what the correct lynch today will be, I am leaning Dayne, but I might be wrong. Hellraiser could have been scum who was bussing his partner ( Dayne ) for big town credit while cuddling up to IceGuy for even more town credit, seeing how quick I wanted to lynch him. Dayne could be scum for the association to Hellraiser, while also having other well known evidence put on him. The Natalie slot is a bit trickier, as I usually see players replacing out, while not really being under much pressure, as a towntell. Given that the reason Absta replaced out was because he wasn't keeping up, his slot very well could be town because I have seen him replace out as town in another Open Game a while ago, which is completed by now.

- I might be overthinking this, but in order of likelyness to lynch, I would go Dayne, Hellraiser, and Natalie. I do realize I said Hellraiser is the likeliest to be the tonwiest of the three, but thinking again and how quickly the public wants to hound at Dayne, is making me think again who is scum and who is town.

- In addition, if you have ANY innocents or guilties, I think it is time to claim as this is LyLo, any investigation would be nice. I'm looking at you Delta, it still hasn't been confirmed if you investigated Scott.

Your second paragraph is WIFOM, so don't even bother. I'd also like to state that it would be anti-town by Delta to out it if he got an inno on Scott since Scott is dead. That would only serve to narrow down the options for scum. What matters is that scum thought that Delta had investigated Scott, at least that's how I read the kill of this night.

[Hellraiser]

I don't know why Scott was killed, do you? I was on the assumption Scott was killed because he thought I was town and was pointing out facts like me and IceGuy were a town vs town debate. None of us knew if DeltaWave investigated Scott Night 1, it wasn't confirmed. Innocents ARE useful in my opinion because we are in LyLo, we need to pick out players who we know, are town.

Also, i don't think it was WIFOM, more of just me overthinking scenarios if you guys were town or scum for doing what you guys did. In the end i came to the conclusion that Natalie could be town due to how Absta replaced out, and I put you in second place in the lynch order. Could this possibly be why you want me to drop my speculation?

I thought that it was pretty obvious that he got killed because Delta hinted that he had investigated him (which Natalie later brought up). It'd also be outright anti-town for someone with a dead inno to claim at this point. You wouldn't prove anything, town would gain nothing and it would only serve to narrow down the suspects for scum.

I want you to drop the speculation because you came to a faulty conclusion based on WIFOM. Nothing you wrote in your second paragraph hints at any alignment at all.

[Hellraiser]

This is LyLo, so i don't know why you are talking about suspects? If Delta investigated someone than he is a VT right now... and by your logic why am I still alive?

I find your focus on night suspects kind of a weird focus for a town player as of the moment.

Ah the fucking rage. C'mon, it's not that hard. Yes, if Delta investigated someone he's a VT now

and we don't want him to confirm that because that would narrow down the pool for scum so they can kill the ones with a night action left

. I think you're alive because you're scum but whatever, it wouldn't be strange for you to be alive if you were town either.

Hypothesising that you're town: You've used your investigation so scum knows that you have no night action left. They can therefore try to kill those with a night action left. You're also somewhat suspected (mostly by me now but still) so scum can get a mislynch on you if lucky. That's two good reasons.

And I don't focus on NKs, I don't want to at least, as NK analysis often is too much WIFOM to bother with. It's the fact that I have to explain this over and over without you understanding.

[Hellraiser]

So yeah, you're outright TRYING now to find reasons to suspect me. That's a weird focus for a town player.

[Hellraiser]

That makes sense. A risk that I'm more than willing to take.
VOTE: Ser Arthur Dayne

[Hellraiser]

Well fuck.

[Hellraiser]

And my slot protected DeltaWave on N2.

Yeah, it's official, I suck. Sorry Venmar, sorry Dayne. Turns out I was completely wrong.

[Hellraiser]

I even had a tab open with an unvote just in case but uh, time flies when you're on Facebook?

[Hellraiser]

I even had a tab open with an unvote just in case but uh, time flies when you're on Facebook?

Were you playing Mafia Wars?

Nice one.

But this ain't fun. Here I make this great comeback and I'm 100% wrong in my first game. Fucking hell.

[Hellraiser]

Hell, are you an alt, or is this your first game on site? (if it's the latter, welcome! )

Well, an alt (as I just said). How did you find me out?

[Hellraiser]

And we've played together before DeltaWave but I still can't read you for shit. Damn it...

[Hellraiser]

You're my MVP for this game btw, DeltaWave. I don't think anyone saw that coming.

[Hellraiser]

Hell, are you an alt, or is this your first game on site? (if it's the latter, welcome! )

Well, an alt (as I just said). How did you find me out?

You didn't post anywhere else and you seemed experienced

Who are you?

Ah alright, thanks I guess.

Yeah... I might as well reveal myself, I'll create a new alt soon anyway. I'm Johhog, chronic lurker and the resident Swede of this forum. I don't think you've seen me around as I've only been in one Mafia game before since this winter and I haven't been that active in the discussion sections either lately. I think DeltaWave is the only one here I've played with before, and I've only played with him a couple of times IIRC.

Btw, I think this is an appropriate post to quote:

I'm addicted to creating alts without any reason at all.

[Hellraiser]

Go team go!

I wonder if I would have survived the whole game as well if Venmar hadn't investigated me.

Knowing me though, probably not.

I'm not sure, I'm surprised that you managed to stay unsuspected that long. Might be that we had a relatively inexperienced player list though (no offence), your careful systematic style of play is usually great as scum and I'm not sure I would've believed my own gut either if you still would've been alive when I replaced in.

[Hellraiser]

Aye, sorry then. It's getting hard to keep track of everyone.

Yeah, Team Mafia is the one game I'm talking about. It was a fucking mess, I had to force myself to post once every other day even though I had no interest in the game and I did not help my team mates as much as I'd like to. That's partly why I chose to play with an alt here, to avoid getting too much flak if I fucked up big time. The other reason was to avoid my meta, that I'm lurky and useless as town and helpful and active as scum. Looks like I soon might get rid of that meta.

[Hellraiser]

I also tried to use American English in this game, to differentiate myself from my main account where I use British English. I think I slipped a couple of times though, I'm not good at American English.

[Hellraiser]

Also Johhog, I remember some game we played in that was a large theme and you were in a hydra? it was a while back

Small theme, Thomith's game. I was in a hydra with racerman13 but that was probably almost a year ago. I was also thinking of myko's extremely large game but now that I think back you didn't replace in until after I was dead.