Open 419 Diffusion of Power - Game Over

[DeltaWave]

Oh shizzle my nizzle, forgot about this game. reading up

[DeltaWave]

So, D1 cop should claim, yes?

lol

VOTE: 2birds

[DeltaWave]

there you have it

[DeltaWave]

Delta, I voted you because no townie would have voted me for the reason you voted me.

Delta, have you actually read the thread?

Serious question.

You and Voided both had shitty plans. Voided already has some pressure on him and he's been holding up well under it. You needed a bit of pressure yourself.

[DeltaWave]

Delta, I'm getting very annoyed that one-liner posts are becoming your meta. You were much better in Mini 1248. That being said, your vote for 2Birds was shit (and not in a good way). However, 2Birds' votes on you and Venmar are way worse.

My posts get longer as the game progresses.

DeltaWave's vote looked terrible. It was "hey, 2birds and Voided have bad plans. Voided's is worse but I'm voting 2birds instead". He then explained himself adequately, and I unvoted.

That's not what I said, I intentionally kept the commentary to a minimum to see what your response would be to a vote rooted in your claim plan. I thought Voided's plan was worse but I hadn't disclosed that until after I voted you.

[DeltaWave]

Venmar's #103: You "just" wanted to point out Scott's contributions? Why not do something about it like vote for him instead?

- Why would i vote for him? I already explained in my previous post that voting for someone for the points i brought up is not a sufficient case to suspect someone on the grounds that they are scum. Maybe i could have voted him for pressure, and i probably should have, but at the time i was talking to Dayne and 2birds a much better target right now in my eyes than Scott.

PS: White-knighting is a tell, I have caught scum with it before.

- To me it is a null-tell. White-knighting can be used by both town and scum, and in my case i am town. Since it can lean both ways you cannot say that white-knighting is an instant scum-tell, i've seen it used by town before, and it is being used by a town in this game as well, me. It's nice that you used it to catch scum, but that, in my opinion, does not automatically make me scum.

--------

@DarthYoshi
- Can you make a more specific case for why you think me and Arthur are scummy? For Arthur i see a bunch of speculation on meta and for me i see a lot of reasoning behind what you think is fluff and my post about Scott. So, care to present them more clearly?

Feels like you are going out of your way to constantly mention that you are town. Something seems off.

I've found that fairly new people like to constantly assert their towniness. Given his join date this is actually a mild town tell for me.

[DeltaWave]

It also could have been a sub-conscious feeling i had that made me say that over and over again.

This is really awkward and it makes me want to put you in my lynch pool for saying it. Pinning it on your subconscious is a new one.

[DeltaWave]

Compare Voided and 2Birds. They both were thinking along the same lines early on but diverged in their behavior. I'm inclined to call Voided town and 2B scum.

[DeltaWave]

Compare Voided and 2Birds. They both were thinking along the same lines early on but diverged in their behavior. I'm inclined to call Voided town and 2B scum.

A little elaboration, perhaps?

Confid: 1.) This is a brand-new setup. I'd be surprised if there

wasn't

theory and setup discussion.

2.) While I do somewhat agree with you about Venmar's reluctance to vote Scott (and to his credit he did admit that was wrong), why was it bad that he was reluctant to vote me?

I have no idea what the second point is in reference to since I didn't mention Venmar, but IceGuy pretty much answered your question in his most recent post.

[DeltaWave]

blah i missed that part

[DeltaWave]

I'm unfamiliar with 2B's meta, can anyone confirm this?

[DeltaWave]

I'm pretty sure it's possible for 2 people to have the same role.

Regardless, self-meta in defense is scummy and apparently IceGuy says it's not even accurate, so go ahead with the hammer IMO.

[DeltaWave]

^ That last sentence doesn't make much sense.

It seems like you're jumping on wagons and giving logical reason to justify your voting so you don't look like you're voting blindly, but at the same time the reasons you give seem artifical and fake, and it looks like you're just being opportunistic.

Why are Scott's reasons artificial and fake? I ask because Scott is town as fuck.

[DeltaWave]

How the hell is Scott town as fuck? He's been sheeping on fucking cases and trying to keep his damn hand cleans. That's not being town, it's being scummy and safe.

Do you agree with SED's description of Brosius here?

[DeltaWave]

How the hell is Scott town as fuck? He's been sheeping on fucking cases and trying to keep his damn hand cleans. That's not being town, it's being scummy and safe.

Do you agree with SED's description of Brosius here?

Does disagreeing mean we're forced to say he's thus town?

nope

[DeltaWave]

Also why are you answering for Mala?

[DeltaWave]

^ That last sentence doesn't make much sense.

It seems like you're jumping on wagons and giving logical reason to justify your voting so you don't look like you're voting blindly, but at the same time the reasons you give seem artifical and fake, and it looks like you're just being opportunistic.

Why are Scott's reasons artificial and fake? I ask because Scott is town as fuck.

[DeltaWave]

Well Delta, if Scott is so 'town as fuck' then instead of waiting for reasons from Dayne to why he is scummy why don't you tell us why he is town?

I'll get to that eventually.

Still waiting on SAD.

Post 258 sucks.

Venmar is still iffy.

Om is totally under the radar right now and I want to hear his opinions on the Mala wagon.

[DeltaWave]

I just want to say that it's awesome how I mistakenly abbreviated Dayne's name as "SED" once, and then everyone has kept up with it since

[DeltaWave]

@Delta: I support the Mala wagon.

Also I was waiting for someone to point out me flying under the radar. It's hilarious how I've been saying little and nobody's been noticing.
Damnit, someone pressure me so I have some motivation to do stuff.

Has your read progressed past the "gut" stage?

[DeltaWave]

Kinda

,

I haven't really been paying attention to exactly what she's saying

, but I could probably make a case if I could be bothered to.

How is it possible for the thing in bold and the underlined thing to be in the same sentence

[DeltaWave]

eh okay, i see that

please read over mala and give me your input

[DeltaWave]

Well Delta, if Scott is so 'town as fuck' then instead of waiting for reasons from Dayne to why he is scummy why don't you tell us why he is town?

I'll get to that eventually.

I am trying to give this game a quick read through so I can get back into it, but I also notice that Delta doesn't want to tell me why Scott is town as fuck. What's the hold up?

Why is this such a sticking point for you?

[DeltaWave]

I want to do a bit of scumhunting on SAD without saying too much first so that he can't just say what I want to hear

[DeltaWave]

I want to do a bit of scumhunting on SAD without saying too much first so that he can't just say what I want to hear

- How is your "Scott is town as fuck" read so dependant on SAD?

It's clearly not dependent because I said it before I started questioning SAD

Do you have a problem with me questioning SAD?

[DeltaWave]

ebwop: had it before I started questioning, but same thing

[DeltaWave]

because I want to know the specific reasons why SAD is going after scott

[DeltaWave]

Interesting that I asked SAD a question, he ducked it, I reiterated the question and it looks like some people are stalling for him now.

[DeltaWave]

because I want to know the specific reasons why SAD is going after scott

- How does this change your read on Scott?? Are you going to base it off of him or something? Why is it so hard to just say: " This, this, and this is why Scott is town as fuck ".

It doesn't change my read at all. I'm going to interrogate SAD, and maybe Mala, and I don't want them crafting their answers to be satisfactory. I want honest answers so I won't discuss the specifics on my end but I will later.

[DeltaWave]

I don't have an issue with you questioning Dayne, but I hate when people make reads on players without giving a good reason. And then won't even back it up when prodded about it.

Pretty much this.

Your jump to "peoplz are stalling for him!" is duly noted.

Vote: Deltawave

Explain what the scum motivation is for doing what I'm doing.

[DeltaWave]

I'll repeat, just so you can't claim to misunderstand: I'm saying that I'll talk about my town read on Scott after I've finished questioning SAD and maybe Mala. I'm not withholding it forever and I'm not saying I'll never discuss it. I want to know what you think is the scum motivation behind that.

[DeltaWave]

That's better, but I guess I just don't really see the need to keep witholding that part of this entire deal (the scott-townread).

I said that I'd give it up after I was done with SAD/Mala in Post 291. Did you miss that post when you made your vote?

Anyway, if SAD and/or Mala are scum, not telling them everything I'm thinking makes it harder for them to tell me what I want to hear so I'll go along my way. Once I'm done asking them questions (at least for now) then I see no problem talking about my town read on Scott.

[DeltaWave]

@Delta
What are you asking SAD and Mala anyway?

I want to know, specifically, what they're calling "artificial" about Scott. That's an accusation that tends to get thrown a lot, but it's also an accusation that has to be based on concrete facts so I want to see what underlies that judgment.

[DeltaWave]

I already stated that I feel Scott is showing signs of scum by not making his own cases or own opinions. Both are commonly a scum trait and it doesn't sit well with me. I already gave you concrete facts on both. Try reading my posts

I'm mostly going after SAD right now, the questions were most specifically at him.

[DeltaWave]

Things are getting a little stagnant. Voided, opinions on Mala and SAD?

[DeltaWave]

Voided, do you believe that reacting like Mala did (twitchy/reactive/panicked) is a scum tell?

[DeltaWave]

I wouldn't feel bad if mala got hammered but I'd really like to grill SAD some more before the day is out

[DeltaWave]

Actually, you don't need to claim. You've already fakeclaimed N2 cop.

When did that happen?

[DeltaWave]

@Delta
What are you asking SAD and Mala anyway?

I want to know, specifically, what they're calling "artificial" about Scott. That's an accusation that tends to get thrown a lot, but it's also an accusation that has to be based on concrete facts so I want to see what underlies that judgment.

DAYNE

[DeltaWave]

how many scum does this setup have? if we're not in lylo I might be fine with testing Venmar out on this

[DeltaWave]

Scott is next.

more like dayne is next

you've dodged the questions i've asked you every single time, you die

[DeltaWave]

i really want to give one more chance to dayne to respond to the questions ive been asking him for fucking ever, but expressing an intention to vote fuzdun

[DeltaWave]

if you mean how he wants to rush to lynch, that's totally understandable when you score a guilty.

[DeltaWave]

holy shit i've said this like a million times

i want to know why you think scott is artificial

[DeltaWave]

holy shit i've said this like a million times

i want to know why you think scott is artificial

Now can we get some more from you?

I still find dayne's response inadequate but pursuing these questions will not get me the kind of specificity i want, and it's probably not helping

right now, I think the most likely scumteam would be fuzdun - dayne - ???. Will post more about the question marks once I've contemplated it further.

[DeltaWave]

here's how I see things:

Town (S->W): Scott, Voided, Venmar providing he's right
Unknown: Cogito Ergo Sum
Scum (S->W): Fuzdun, Dayne, IceGuy/Absta?

Anyone have anything left they want to do today?

[DeltaWave]

Actually, let's make that Ice/Absta/Confid

[DeltaWave]

if you flip town then venmar is dying. we'll see how things play out tomorrow

[DeltaWave]

are we waiting for confid's replacement to chime in? because i really want to hammer

[DeltaWave]

twiddles thumbs

[DeltaWave]

Regarding Scott, I thought his behavior was perfectly consistent with town and inconsistent with scum. He was saying the sorts of things I was thinking, so there you go. Not exactly dramatic after the big fight I had with Dayne over it but whatever.

I'm not sold on the Venmar gambit accusation. The only thing that gives it credit is the timing of it and the fact that he investigated FuDuzn out of the blue. That's not strong enough for me to drop a vote on Venmar right now though.

[DeltaWave]

I would have preferred an investigation on Dayne, that would have made this a lot simpler.

[DeltaWave]

The best thing to do would be to treat yesterday's lynch as a null event for Venmar. That is to say, not as conclusive proof that he's innocent or guilty. I can see scum trying to pull an epic gambit near the end of the game to get one of their own confirmed as town. But it's equally possible that Venmar is actually a cop and actually got a guilty on Fu.

Ice, other than the events of yesterday, what do you have on Venmar?

[DeltaWave]

FWIW I think you're probably town (at least, more town than null) regardless of your guilty. It's just that the timing is enough to make me wary to call you confirmed town. If scum was going to pull this gambit now would be the time to do it.

[DeltaWave]

IceGuy: What specifically makes Venmar scum other than your gambit theory?
Absta: What's the deal with your vote on Natalie?
Dayne: Who do you suspect other than Scott?
Scott: Who is your top scum read?
Venmar: Do you have any other reasons for voting IceGuy besides his gambit theory?
Natalie: Who do you agree with more, Ice or Venmar?

that should get some more discussion going on

[DeltaWave]

Venmar's opening post of D3

LOLOLOL.

Vote: FuDuzn

Your opening post of D4

LOLOLOLOL
VOTE: ConfidAnon

Trying to see if you could fake a guilty here? But nobody bit?

Why not replace out if you are not paying attention?

Vote: absta101

If anyone still doubts that Scott is town after this, you need to lay off the drink

VOTE: Absta101

[DeltaWave]

FYI, I'm voting because that first post of the day thing is an awesome observation

[DeltaWave]

Way to be super-literal about it

I'm clearly saying that I think Scott's line of reasoning is legit

Claiming that I'm just voting absta because I liked the observation is terribad

[DeltaWave]

Also, this line of reasoning is legit because of the inconsistent statements absta was making. He apparently intentionally mimicked Venmar's guilty (he said he did so on purpose in 541) but he couldn't remember why he chose to vote Confid/Natalie (537).

What's the town motivation behind that? Usually when people want to gambit by implying a cop guilty, they have a reason why. There are two options here: either absta is town and decided to copy Venmar's opening post just for some random reason (who the hell knows why), or he was scum who wanted to float that out there and see if anyone supported it before putting his chips behind it. The second sounds more likely.

P-Edit: See above

[DeltaWave]

In fact let me flesh this out some more.

We've got two options here.

Option A (Absta is town): Absta decided to copy the same manner in which Venmar introduced his guilty yesterday. By his own admission he intentionally crafted his post to be similar. He remembered that fact, but he can't remember why he voted Confid/Natalie. He didn't even offer the simple reason that "I thought they were scum", he just said he didn't know. So in that scenario, absta would be a townie engaged in a very specific gambit but with no reason whatsoever for why he would do it.

Option B (Absta is scum): Absta decided to copy the same manner in which Venmar introduced his guilty yesterday so that he could see if anyone would buy it. If not, he'd just brush it off. In this scenario, he didn't want to commit to his breadcrumb unless he had some indication that there would be support for it. This makes sense as scum will often be hesitant about breadcrumbing because it locks them into what they're claiming and holds them accountable for it later.

If you think Option B is more likely than Option A, then Absta is more than likely scum. It's a simple choice.

Also I want to hear from everyone which option they think is more likely.

[DeltaWave]

How are they hypothetical and random? they're based on things absta actually said and admitted to. Explain what other options could exist.

Absta is a solid choice anyway given his history of throwing out random questions and tunneling only on Scott to the exclusion of pretty much everyone else

[DeltaWave]

They contain inferences about why absta would act that way, but the inferences are reasonable and not at all "random" like you described them.

Do you believe Absta is town or scum?

[DeltaWave]

Doesn't it raise at least a tiny red flag that he would intentionally copy Venmar's lead-in to a guilty claim, but then claim that he had no idea why he cast that vote?

[DeltaWave]

I'm going to be on very sparingly until Thursday, since I'm taking the bar exam next week

[DeltaWave]

In the interests of avoiding rolefishing, let me say this:

If I flip doctor, I protected Scott on night 1.
If I flip cop, I investigated Scott on night 1.

[DeltaWave]

we will have a 4 man lynch pool to choose from. ( IceGuy, Dwayne, Absta, Natalie ).

nevertheless, this is an adequate lynch pool

also be back on thursday

who knows I may check in once or twice before then

[DeltaWave]

I'm back, exam is over. Will read up

[DeltaWave]

holy text walls batman

[DeltaWave]

Hellraiser, do you buy into Ice's conspiracy theory or do you find Venmar scummy for other reasons?

also Dayne is a solid vote, good on you

TIME FOR VCA (whenever I feel like getting around to it)

[DeltaWave]

gonna VCA this shit out and see what happens

[DeltaWave]

I've been sick lately but I'm going to do that VCA when I feel better. Natalie I'd compromise on Ice if it came down to it.

[DeltaWave]

iceguy is acceptable

VOTE: IceGuy

[DeltaWave]

I didn't realize that was the hammer but any lynch from within my pool is acceptable. Sorry if you're town ice

[DeltaWave]

The lowest possible chance of hitting scum on Ice is 25%, it's as high as 50%

[DeltaWave]

now i feel bad for voting iceguy

[DeltaWave]

You're overdoing the anger a bit

[DeltaWave]

it was right of ice to point out that venmar's guilty could be a gambit, but he latched onto that argument and never let go. that's enough to put him in a lynchable pool. it's not the best lynch we could have had but it's not the worst.

[DeltaWave]

You're saying Ice was more town than Venmar?

[DeltaWave]

honestly not really, i got sick, fell behind and havent really caught up

[DeltaWave]

A million bucks on Dayne

[DeltaWave]

A million bucks on Dayne

Why would I kill the person I would've most likely went for today?

WIFOM but I'm guessing it's because you got no support for a Brosius lynch yesterday and you were unlikely to get one today.

[DeltaWave]

Dayne ISO #54:

Venmar looks fine and ConfidAnon looked fine, and Natalie hasn't done such horrible job as to make me change the read on that slot, so meh.

Dayne ISO #56

Hmmm....

Let's make this interesting...

VOTE: Iceguy

I can just as easily jump on Helldude... but I would be voting with Scott and Delta (not that voting with Venmar and Natalie is much better )

So Venmar and Confid/Natalie went from "fine" to "just as scummy as my scumreads" in the span of two posts.

Sounds like you did a quick 180 so that your IceGuy vote could look like one of those "I don't like this vote but I'm forced to do it" situations.

Expressing an intention to vote Dayne.

[DeltaWave]

You said Scott was your #1 scumread in Post 527. So don't try to backpedal with this "I meant derp town!" stuff.

[DeltaWave]

Assuming you're telling the truth right now Dayne: Why is voting with people

you think are town

(Venmar/Natalie) as bad as voting with people

you think are scum?

(Scott)

[DeltaWave]

Assuming you're telling the truth right now Dayne: Why is voting with people

you think are town

(Venmar/Natalie) as bad as voting with people

you think are scum?

(Scott)

Because voting with derp town can be as bad as voting with scum? Scum do not have an obligation to only vote townies you know... And fyi, I

did

vote with who I think is town, and I didn't say that it's "as bad", I said "not much better".

PS: And it has just a tad bit of sarcasm in it.

Do you think Hellraiser is scum?

[DeltaWave]

Delta, where is that VCA you promised long time ago?

I ended up getting behind and never did it. I'm looking through the vote counts now though and I'm not seeing anything that pops out other than SAD going after FuzDun early on, which could have been an attempt at distancing.

[DeltaWave]

The last time you mentioned Absta/Hell, he was "null", what changed?

[DeltaWave]

Going to call this as a Dayne/Natalie team

[DeltaWave]

Natalie, who do you think is scum?

[DeltaWave]

Also I expect something solid, not the wishy washy stuff you've been giving for days now.

[DeltaWave]

Who's his partner? (I figured you didn't go into this because you're his partner but let's hear your opinion anyway)

[DeltaWave]

VOTE: Dayne

[DeltaWave]

*high five*

I still think you're scum though

[DeltaWave]

I still think Scott was town as fuck

[DeltaWave]

I even had a tab open with an unvote just in case but uh, time flies when you're on Facebook?

Were you playing Mafia Wars?

[DeltaWave]

You're my MVP for this game btw, DeltaWave. I don't think anyone saw that coming.

^^This

Everyone thought Delta was town.

Thanks guys.

I'd be interested to see what the Cops did during the night.

Also Johhog, I remember some game we played in that was a large theme and you were in a hydra? it was a while back

[DeltaWave]

I asked if I could protect myself N4, as I was 100% sure I was being killed. Alas I could not. The Ice lynch was beyond terrible.

I'm wondering, who did you end up protecting?