Open 419 Diffusion of Power - Game Over

[Venmar]

Ok, lets get this started then. My vote goes for:

Vote: Absta101

- For being excited to play with me and shotgun.

[Venmar]

- Don't see why we would want everyone that works on a specific night to claim, the chances aren't in our favor really. There's also the chance that a N1 cop would claim and a scum would claim N1 doc and the cop would end up dead, or a N1 cop would claim and no N1 doc would claim because there wasn't one. These are things we should consider, and that scum can always potentially lie themselves into the claim. Maybe not as a doctor because then a dead cop would put them to the noose, but a claimed cop maybe, and claim that a innocent townie turned up as mafia. Really, this will be a interesting game because claims will probably run rampant at one point or another. ( This is my prediction. )

- That said, i disagree with the theory that cop and doc from a specific night should claim. Odds are not in their favor in my opinion, and pulling it off correctly and at the right time are also factors to consider.

[Venmar]

We don't really have a way to check claims. Scum can safely claim any role since a counterclaim means nothing.

- Exactly why i don't like claims before certain nights right now.

PEdit: I think claims should only be AFTER your specific night in my opinion.

[Venmar]

We don't really have a way to check claims. Scum can safely claim any role since a counterclaim means nothing.

PEdit: I think claims should only be AFTER your specific night in my opinion.

That's what I've been agreeing to...

- Sorry, that PEdit was aimed at Mala, not you.

- Also, sorry if my paragraph is hard to read, it is just how i write sometimes

[Venmar]

So we claiming guys?

- Read the thread. This whole claiming thing is the only thing we are talking about.

[Venmar]

You sheeping Ice? Do you actually find Voided scummy? If yes, what is scummy about him?
Post #32 doesn't look good to me.

Meh. That vote was semi-serious, and it was a lot better than my completely random vote on Venmar. And yes, I do find Voided scummy for suggesting an anti-town idea that he tried to wrap with gold. If he would've been called out upon it, he could've always backtracked and said "oh well, I was just throwing suggestions out there; at least I'm being productive."

- Lets not forget this was during the very first stages of the game. We have only recently established the possible outcomes for all the claims and how it was a bad idea to claim before the night. I think on Voided's part it was simply a suggestion of a plan that he proposed and it was kind of quickly proven to be quite and very ineffective. The fact that Voided didn't really push the plan down our throats or really push it forward is a townie thing to do. Though i do agree it was a bad plan, i just don't think Voided should get lynched for that alone.

- Also, lets not forget that THIS, is a NEW Open setup, so this is the first game of it. It hasn't been played before, so we don't know what theories and what plans and strategies work and which don't work. I think with the ideas that we have come up with in this thread regarding claiming situations in this setup are where we decide what is good and what is bad in general, for the setup. I hope i explained that well, i am not sure lol. Voided's idea just, i guess, turned out to be one of those bad ones and i don't blame him for it. If this was a largely played setup however and Voided's idea was badly looked upon, i would go with your guys's ideas and probably support the lynch, but in this situation i do not.

- Then again lets not forget that this is only Day 1 and we are working off of very little fumes. I suggest we go away from this claiming discussion and get to real scumhunting rather than just some rather random discussion. That said, i will need to reread the thread to pick up on some things but i encourage all others to do the same. Voided is still not a bad target should all else fail however, and i think is worth keeping an eye on.

- Also, lets let Voided get in here and defend himself before we push any real wagons or votes on him.

[Venmar]

The fact that Voided didn't really push the plan down our throats or really push it forward is a townie thing to do.

What wut? Townies are more likely to push for an idea because they genuinley and strongly believe in it, so they try explaning their side and their POV. While scum are more likely to drop things because they don't wanna gain too much attention or look awkward.

- This is actually true, so fair enough. However i think that scum are more likely in some situations push ideas for lynches or bad plans to manipulate the town into doing something that would lead to something not benefiting the town. The fact that Voided did not push his bad plan too much is a townie thing. If he pushed it more than he did, i could see it as scum trying to lead us in the wrong direction, but seeing it was a bad plan and not pushing it is a good thing.

- Just curious, you think it would be a good or townie thing should have Voided pushed his bad plan? You know, he is trying to make us believe in a bad plan but you would say he is townie because he believes in it. True or no?

If this was a largely played setup however and Voided's idea was badly looked upon, i would go with your guys's ideas and probably support the lynch, but in this situation i do not.

Wait wut? Why would a scum try to throw out a bad idea that can potentially turn anti-town in an already known setup, where they can be called upon it right away? I'm saying the best place to do it is in a new setup, where they are prone to get away with it.

- This is also true, scum are more likely to get away with bad plans or ideas in a new setup that is not well known yet. I also think though that because it is new, not every idea or strategy should be looked down upon at the quickest of glances, because we might not know yet if they are a good or not not. Kind of like here where Voided posted his idea and we proved him wrong with the bad chances and scum claiming a doctor or cop, etc.

I suggest we go away from this claiming discussion and get to real scumhunting rather than just some rather random discussion

Okay, going by the antonym of "real" is "fake", how is this fake-scumhunting? And what

is

real-scumhunting? Also, how is this "random" discussion.

- Well, i didn't really try to say that the claiming discussion we were having was fake, but rather i think scumhunting someone's reactions, behavior, meta, ideas, points, methods, are much better ways of schumhunting than working off of claim ideas and speculation. This is why RVS proves to be useful, because it draws some kinds reactions and behaviors at some point. Also, by random i kind of thought that working off of claiming speculation was kind of random, so i called it random discussion.

I think your post is a good case

against

Voided. Are you secretly a Voided alt?

- No, i am not.

PEdit: I think i saw a couple posts made before this one, i started writing this after Iceguys post #88. Will read those now.

[Venmar]

I guess right now I am weary of either Iceguy or Dayne

trying to turn a bad idea into a clearly scum idea

. I wanted to keep my vote on Voided as this dynamic was explored, and to keep pressure on Voided, but I feel like we are in the early stages of manipulation here.

- I do agree with this, this is kind of why i am not jumping on Voided because of his bad idea. I think i already stated why what Voided has done with his idea is not particularly scummy, but deserves at the very least to be kept an eye on. I will need to read into Voided's meta and experience to know if this is a kind of idea he would propose, but again i feel like bringing up the point that this is a new setup and knowledge of what idea of procedure is good and bad.

[Venmar]

I would also suggest that, should a cop and doc have the same night, they should both claim

could come from somebody who actually is a cop or a doc?

- He could be a cop or doctor that works during night 3, so he could possibly want to get the night 1 and night 2 doctors and cops to do their job efficiently. I hope i did make it clear though i don't think Voided is flat out town, just that his bad plan isn't exactly something we should lynch him for ALONE. I am keep an eye on him like i said.

@VoidedMafia

- Get in here and post your ideas on this matter.

[Venmar]

The fact that Voided didn't really push the plan down our throats or really push it forward is a townie thing to do.

What wut? Townies are more likely to push for an idea because they genuinley and strongly believe in it, so they try explaning their side and their POV. While scum are more likely to drop things because they don't wanna gain too much attention or look awkward.

Agree with this.

- Why? Can you be a bit more specific on what do you liked so much about what Dayne had to say? You have made 3 posts in total so far, and in two out of the three you have seemingly "sheeped" or pointed out other people's ideas and points, so maybe you could form your own reasons for why you agree with those? Or at least gives us a bit more content than just "this" and "i agree".

----

@Scott

Voided's idea is bad and the fact that he claims he answered the question about how doc+cops with simultaneous nights would even know such a thing, is weird.

This is such a bad reason to vote. The ability of someone to conjure up ideas has zero correlation with their alignment.
I'm interested, what do you think of this idea?

Cops should claim the day there night's coming up (e.g., N1 cop should claim right now, N2 cop should claim tomorrow, etc.)

----

The pushing of hugely anti-town ideas is a great reason to vote. Especially when it is the only thing of note on page 2.

- I disagree. Read my previous posts why, but Voided was not exactly "hugely pushing" an anti-town idea. Even if he was, is this good enough of a reason to ACTUALLY vote for Voided without any other evidence? I understand voting for Voided based on this reason to put down pressure and squeeze more content out of the person, but this is not the vibe i am getting from this post, it sounds more like " this is a perfectly good enough of a reason to lynch Voided ". Perhaps you do mean it in the way i proposed, i don't know, i just disagree that Voided should be the prime target right now. BEFORE ANYONE ASKS, no, i do not have a prime target in mind yet.

Cops should not claim the day before.

- This much i do agree with. However, adding on the doctor is also something i would not leave out. Both Cop and Doctor shouldn't claim before the night that they can use their power.

----------------------------

- Will be making a post regarding Scott Brosius in a second.

[Venmar]

Hmmm... only 2 players I don't know, Scott and Venmar.

VOTE: Venmar

PS: This is a serious question. Should everyone claim what they are the day after their specific night? Ex, a N1 cop claims on Day2?

So why did you pick him over me?

- I don't see why this is even worth saying. Does it matter? It is a random vote, Dayne probably doesn't have a reason for why he chose me over you. Therefore, this question is meaningless, and i am going to go ahead and say, fluff.

So we just don't let the cop claim and don't take the 33% chance, but the 10% chance. Simple as that.

This

- This explains nothing, and rather seems like a fluff post that shows nothing of what you are actually thinking. Since you say nothing but rather just support what someone else, in this case IceGuy, has said, you are techincally sheeping what they have said.

The fact that Voided didn't really push the plan down our throats or really push it forward is a townie thing to do.

What wut? Townies are more likely to push for an idea because they genuinley and strongly believe in it, so they try explaning their side and their POV. While scum are more likely to drop things because they don't wanna gain too much attention or look awkward.

Agree with this.

- Same as above, fluff and sheeping.

--------

- I just wanted to point out what Scott has contributed to this game so far.

[Venmar]

So let me get this straight, you are attacking me for disagreeing about your scumread?

White-Knighting is not a scum tell, try again.

[Venmar]

No, you're going

out

of your way to defend someone, without even letting them defend themselves first. How the hell can you be so sure that I am wrong about Voided when all he's done is suggest an anti-town idea? Yes, you might think it's not a big deal, but you don't have to go out of your way to try and dicredit other people's opinions, or not even give a chance for some pressuring,

especially

considering that you don't have anything else that warrant's attention.

- Not saying YOU are wrong about Voided, i am saying the case you guys have against him is not strong enough for a lynch. But if it makes your poor soul feel better, i will back off and let you do your thing?

White-Knighting is not a scum tell, try again.

Uhh, yea it

can

be.

- No, not necessarily. But you just said it doesn't have to be right there.

[Venmar]

You bring up a good point.

I saw the reasons behind the Voided wagon weak for a lynch without really acknowledging that this game has only started recently. I was in my later game mode so i do apologize for acting like this. In my defense though this is how i play, i play very honestly and cautiously. You are free reading into my previous games, but most of them are ongoing so you probably shouldn't.

I will lay off of this Voided situation for now.

[Venmar]

I did the same thing to Venmar.

- No, you didn't do the same thing to me. There is a difference between me defending someone for a brief moment because i think the evidence put before them is invalid, and you pushing me for 1 little thing among many others. You guys were attacking Voided for his bad plan, and that is the only thing Voided has talked about. But, i have said more than Voided, made more posts, made more explanations, and OUT OF ALL THAT, you chose one quote and decided to ignore everything else. See the difference?

People gave an explanation as to why they were voting Voided based on one quote.

I think the scumteam is you + Venmar + someone on the Voided wagon.

- So. You are/were against Voided because of one thing, and now you are attacking me because of one thing. But you think that someone who is on the Voided wagon, a wagon you supported, is scum, but when you look at me, no. I also like how you are attacking FuDuzn because he is disagreeing with you. Are you going to do this to everyone who thinks of disagreeing with you or hinting a defense for the people you are attack?

--------------
Scum found baby.

Vote: 2bird

- Definitely a good place for a vote right now.

Also, Absta and everyone else need to get in here.

[Venmar]

More importantly, why have I been reduced to capslock six pages into a game?

- Whiney Scum?

Venmar's scum because it's five pages into the game and I want him to be scum. He's grasping at some serious straws here

- So your case on me is that you wish and want me to be scum? I must say, this is a marvelous case, i cannot even think of saying how much this doesn't make sense because it is so adequately well made. Also, could you pretty please with sugar on top point out the points in my posts where i am grasping at straws? You aren't being specific and you are technically dodging the question(s) being given to you.

@Voided

- I haven't been able to read into your meta yet because of other things like other ongoing games and real life, but i will get to it at some point.

[Venmar]

Post 103 - Okay. Do you think he's scum, then?

- I felt like it was necessary to point it out. I wasn't necessarily calling him scum, rather nudging him about it. What i addressed in that post is not enough for me to call him scum and rather just come to a null conclusion, so if i were to call him scum for that basis alone i would have to be a really bad scum player. I also would like to note that Scott decided to pick up his game a bit more after the nudge, but it's nothing all that serious, just a note.

Also, I can back you up on that cautious thing but not the "honest" thing. Saying your playstyle is "honest" implies you aren't scum in an indirect way. That's scummy. You could say "i'm not scum" though you say something like "i'm always honest, check my games". This makes it seem like some sort of ploy to make your statement seem more truthful.

- I was giving you what i believed to be my self-meta. So you should take it as such.

Post 66 - Hmm, that's a good point, as well. I still feel like the/one Cop should claim on the day before he is able to act (N1 cop claims D1, N2 claims D2, etc.) as I do seem some benefit to the WIFOM given to scum in that case about docs and killing (is there another doc? Is he going to protect the scum or is he going to fake us out?).

- No, I still do not support cops and doctors claiming before the night they are allowed to act, it allows scum to coordinate their scum kill, etc. The cons seem to outweigh the pro's with your plan, and until i am convinced otherwise, i would advice that people do not claim before their assigned night where they can act. We do not know for sure if the cop will have a doctor to protect them, and we don't know if there is even a cop for such night, and so on.

Post 93 - Have you done that meta check yet?

- I addressed this in my previous post. But to reiterate, i noted i would be checking your meta is to confirm Ices's theory that a player like you wouldn't make a plan like the one you made in this game. I personally don't see why it matters since this is a new setup and all, but if i find extra time i will read your meta, or i might not at all because you strike me as a better player.

[Venmar]

Venmar's #103: You "just" wanted to point out Scott's contributions? Why not do something about it like vote for him instead?

- Why would i vote for him? I already explained in my previous post that voting for someone for the points i brought up is not a sufficient case to suspect someone on the grounds that they are scum. Maybe i could have voted him for pressure, and i probably should have, but at the time i was talking to Dayne and 2birds a much better target right now in my eyes than Scott.

PS: White-knighting is a tell, I have caught scum with it before.

- To me it is a null-tell. White-knighting can be used by both town and scum, and in my case i am town. Since it can lean both ways you cannot say that white-knighting is an instant scum-tell, i've seen it used by town before, and it is being used by a town in this game as well, me. It's nice that you used it to catch scum, but that, in my opinion, does not automatically make me scum.

--------

@DarthYoshi
- Can you make a more specific case for why you think me and Arthur are scummy? For Arthur i see a bunch of speculation on meta and for me i see a lot of reasoning behind what you think is fluff and my post about Scott. So, care to present them more clearly?

[Venmar]

Feels like you are going out of your way to constantly mention that you are town. Something seems off.

- I don't want to buy into the newbie card that DeltaWave and MalaKitten have given me, because i don't like using the newbie card. I assure you though, the reason for why i repeated myself as town is to try and get the message across that in this case, white-knighting is not being used by a scum and isn't always necessarily a scum tell. It also could have been a sub-conscious feeling i had that made me say that over and over again.

- I hope that helps.

[Venmar]

Well.

[Venmar]

It's nothing. I am just thinking Anon.

[Venmar]

Hmm. Can't tell if those attacking me are scum, or town.

[Venmar]

Absta has my permission to hammer.

[Venmar]

Just got back from my trip, i was V/LA for the whole day. I read day 2 but i will be reading again before i post my thoughts.

[Venmar]

Ok first of all i want to address a post from day 1 that was aimed at me. I was very lazy at the end of day 1 so i never got around to making this post, but i will make it now and address the things aimed at me in this post.

- Don't see why we would want everyone that works on a specific night to claim, the chances aren't in our favor really. There's also the chance that a N1 cop would claim and a scum would claim N1 doc and the cop would end up dead, or a N1 cop would claim and no N1 doc would claim because there wasn't one. These are things we should consider, and that scum can always potentially lie themselves into the claim. Maybe not as a doctor because then a dead cop would put them to the noose, but a claimed cop maybe, and claim that a innocent townie turned up as mafia. Really, this will be a interesting game because claims will probably run rampant at one point or another. ( This is my prediction. )

- That said, i disagree with the theory that cop and doc from a specific night should claim. Odds are not in their favor in my opinion, and pulling it off correctly and at the right time are also factors to consider.

This post pings my gut. I can't exactly explain why . . . if I had to analyze why my gut finds this scummy, it would probably be because it doesn't directly interact with any of the players in thread, but spouts off theory/setup discussion in an effort to appear active.

- Why are you digging up information from the first page? And how is this scummy? This was my first discussion related post of the game. Your reasoning behind this quote is total BS given the circumstances of my post. It looks to me like you are hunting for reasons to pin me as scum, and decided to pick off first page posts? Whut?

- My post was directed at Voided regarding his plan, so in a way it did interact with someone.

- Read the thread. This whole claiming thing is the only thing we are talking about.

Again, I'm getting a "helpful" scum vibe.

- Elaborate my kind sir.

- I disagree. Read my previous posts why, but Voided was not exactly "hugely pushing" an anti-town idea. Even if he was, is this good enough of a reason to ACTUALLY vote for Voided without any other evidence? I understand voting for Voided based on this reason to put down pressure and squeeze more content out of the person, but this is not the vibe i am getting from this post, it sounds more like " this is a perfectly good enough of a reason to lynch Voided ". Perhaps you do mean it in the way i proposed, i don't know, i just disagree that Voided should be the prime target right now.

BEFORE ANYONE ASKS, no, i do not have a prime target in mind yet.

Why so afraid of being asked who you suspect?

That addition to your post feels like you want your posts to be made on your terms, not on the terms of others (who would be questioning you), which makes me think that for whatever reason you don't want to name a suspect. While "careful" play is not something I find inherently scummy (though I disagree with it), the gut read I've gotten from your posts coupled with this makes me suspicious of you.

- You have only pointed one of my posts that is connected to one of your gut reads, and that was a gut read on my second post of the game? So what gives, explain your gut a little bit more will you.

- I made that comment because i felt very sure that someone was going to ask me that question so i wanted to cover it before it was asked. I don't get what you mean by me making my posts on my own terms. That is not what i was thinking when making that posts, and it is instantly labeled as such because of one comment? I didn't want to name a suspect because i did not have a strong enough scum read at that time. This post doesn't seem like you are concerned about me not having a suspect, but more of my presentation of it, and this makes me think you are focusing on the wrong things.

I've gotta VOTE: Venmar. Even though the game has just seven pages, he's already prodded other players to post more three times (I find that scum tend to do this as a way to add an appearance of protowniness to their posts without actually adding content, and three times in seven pages is a bit ridiculous, especially given that the game's been open for four days.)

- Ok, i found three posts in my ISO that could possibly hint what you are talking about in this quote.

Post #54 - I did not prod Shotgun to post more in this post at all. Insteadi told him to reread the thread and he should get the answer to his "question".

Post #95 - Here i asked Voided to come in and share his thoughts. While i did kind of tell him to post, it was for a good reason. The discussion was heavily placed partly on him and his feedback seemed like a given.

Post #121 - This is true, i will give you that.

In addition to that, his earlier posts read a lot like trying to appease the Town and appear "helpful." It's also interesting to note how reluctant he was to vote voidedmafia and Scott Brosius in comparison to how quickly he voted 2birds1stone. Tbh, this is the best case so far.

- This is stupid. Why?

1. I never wanted to vote Voided. If you read the thread a little bit closely, you would see that I wasn't going against Voided, I war rather kind of defending him. I never showed interest in voting for him so i never actually hesistated to vote for someone i never want to vote for in the first place.

2. I already explained why i was hesitant to vote for Scott. I said I thought that what i brought up in-thread about him is and was not enough to vote or lynch him. I think i should have put a vote down to pressure the guy, but i never saw him as a scummy person but more of someone who was being unhelpful and mostly sheeping by just making empty posts saying " Yup ", or " I agree ".

3. I made a post regarding 2bird and i explained my case on him. Read that.

----------

Now, regarding MalaKitten and Day 2, i think that Mala could be town simply because of how quickly this wagon started off on her, and I suspect some scum manipulation or push behind this wagon is a very possible possibility. This doesn't necessarily make MalaKittens town, but it makes her less likely to be such because wagons on town seem to kickstart quicker than wagons on scum.

I will post more later, i need to get some food and i rest, i returned from my yesterdays trip not too long ago, so i plan on resting for a little bit. I will be back with more thoughts later on.

[Venmar]

I want to do a bit of scumhunting on SAD without saying too much first so that he can't just say what I want to hear

- How is your "Scott is town as fuck" read so dependant on SAD?

[Venmar]

I want to do a bit of scumhunting on SAD without saying too much first so that he can't just say what I want to hear

- How is your "Scott is town as fuck" read so dependant on SAD?

It's clearly not dependent because I said it before I started questioning SAD

Do you have a problem with me questioning SAD?

- No, but i don't see how questioning SAD has anything to do with your "Town as fuck" read on Scott?

[Venmar]

because I want to know the specific reasons why SAD is going after scott

- How does this change your read on Scott?? Are you going to base it off of him or something? Why is it so hard to just say: " This, this, and this is why Scott is town as fuck ".

[Venmar]

Interesting that I asked SAD a question, he ducked it, I reiterated the question and it looks like some people are stalling for him now.

- You're misinterpreting me now, i don't care about SAD.

Just going to shut up now >.>

[Venmar]

I find the way Mala reacted ( like DeltaWave described ) is kind of scummy because i imagine a town player would probably make a different reaction than the one she did. I usually see this kind of acting and reaction from scum players. Then again, at the rate of how fast the wagon started off on her i am a little bit weary whether or not she is scum, the wagon seemed to start off a little bit

Just voicing my opinions.

[Venmar]

* a little bit too fast. *

I zoned out or something, i didn't finish the sentence at the end above.

[Venmar]

Vote: MalaKittens

[Venmar]

LOLOLOL.

Vote: FuDuzn

[Venmar]

If i haven't made it obvious yet, i got a guilty on FuDuzn.

Gut tells me Scott and IceGuy are also possible scummies.

[Venmar]

Is a serious issue? FuDuzn wasn't really pushing the game that much and talking mostly from the shadows. Add on the fact nobody was paying attention to him and my gut was suspicious of him, i investigated. I got a guilty, now we lynch.

[Venmar]

Classic OMGUS by FuDuzn. Why would i say I got a guilty on you? BECAUSE I DID.

Guys.

[Venmar]

3 Mafia.

9 alive.
=
3 scum
6 town

[Venmar]

Your logic isn't sound. You know why?
This setup has a minimum of 4 cops. 3 died, so i can still be one, and i am. There could still be another cop than just me.
This setup CAN have overlaps in how many cops go for each night.
I cannot investigate anymore, and i got a guilty on you, FuDuzn. We mislynch tomorrow, we are in LyLo. So i claim so we're not in that situation tomorrow.

I like how FuDuzn's activity sparked up now that he is the victim of a guilty claim.

[Venmar]

I briefly went through FuDuzn's ISO.
He never said he was suspicious of me...
Ummm??

[Venmar]

Newsflash, i am not fake claiming.

I am cop and i got a guilty on you, i have nothing else to discuss with you FuDuzn. You are guilty and everything you are saying to me right now is irrelevant, becayse it is coming from a scum players mouth. Therefore, there is nothing you can say to persuade me otherwise, so defend yourself all you want.

Guys, cmon, let's lynch.

[Venmar]

IceGuy is second scum. Great guys, we are on a roll.

[Venmar]

If you guys lynch FuDuzn you will be at 5:2 tomorrow if the scum kill next night. ( duh )
If you guys lynch me, you will be at 3:2 tomorrow if the scum kill next night ( duh )
In both situations you lynch scum today or tomorrow. Except, you are in a better situation if you lynch scum today, which is FuDuzn.

[Venmar]

I have a guilty on FuDuzn... you are guaranteed 5:2 tomorrow.

[Venmar]

I am.

[Venmar]

FuDuzn is just trying to desperately disprove my guilty.

[Venmar]

There's not much to wait for, we are lynching scum.

[Venmar]

Lynch FuD. If he's scum, lynch Scott.

Actually, I'd much rather lynch Venmar in any case.

To clarify this, I want both Venmar and FuDuzn lynched, but don't particularly care about the order.

- So why not lynch FuDuzn first?

[Venmar]

- Sure, fair enough.

- I don't think you are anymore town by doing that, just so you know.

[Venmar]

Everyone but Confid has checked in i guess.

[Venmar]

holy shit i've said this like a million times

i want to know why you think scott is artificial

Now can we get some more from you?

IceGuy: THat honestly reads as someone who got his first cop PR (or just a cop PR in general) and is just too excited at getting a guilty first try rather than scum fakeclaiming cop and desperately trying to push a mislynch through. I sort of see what you're getting at--he is being a little too pushy--but I'm not going to be convinced that Ven's scum short of Fud flipping town.

- Considering i got a guilty and i was going to be a VT for the rest of the game, i wanted to push it.

[Venmar]

I should probably claim about now right?

- Why claim when there is a guilty on you? You know it makes little to no difference unless you claim scum?

[Venmar]

Actually, claims are a good idea since players only flip Cop or Doctor. Claiming gives us the additional information which day they're on, which is an extra bit of information which may or may not be usual. Scum flip -> disregard claim, town flip -> use claiming information.

- I know how claims work. I don't see the point in Fuduzn claiming when i have a guilty on him is all.

[Venmar]

Why should i have waited? How is ConfidAnon going to make my guilty claim any worse or better?

[Venmar]

Why should i have waited? How is ConfidAnon going to make my guilty claim any worse or better?

What if ConfidAnon claims a cop guilty on you?

- This is assuming he was a second night 2 cop, which is very unlikely.

[Venmar]

Sure.

[Venmar]

What you're suggesting is not possible from my point of view.

[Venmar]

FuDuzn, you're not flipping town.

Fact.

[Venmar]

are we waiting for confid's replacement to chime in? because i really want to hammer

- Be my guest. A guaranteed scum flip. Nobody is talking, so idk what IceGuy is trying to do but just sitting around.

[Venmar]

Wasn't trying to insult or discredit the mod.

[Venmar]

Lol.

Natalie, i am the Night 2 Cop, and i have a guilty result on FuDuzn. He is just a straggling scum trying to stay alive.

[Venmar]

Iceguy is probably another scum, will be taking a look at him.

Natalie's theory that Delta got an innocent on Scott is interesting, especially since Delta hasn't really explained it yet. Not taking it for granted yet though.

[Venmar]

Why me IceGuy?

[Venmar]

Not going to buy into Scott scum yet.

Vote: IceGuy

- My logical choice for scum at the moment.

[Venmar]

Why me IceGuy?

As outlined yesterday.

Also, since you have voted me, why do you think I'm scum?

- Not answering that until you answer my previous question better. That was not a valid answer to my question.

[Venmar]

That's funny, i didn't know scum could have reads.

[Venmar]

Absta, why Natalie? Am i missing the big picture behind that vote?

Also, FuDuzn flipped scum IceGuy...

[Venmar]

Also, FuDuzn flipped scum IceGuy...

Explain how that makes you town.

- Explain why as scum I would do such a stupid gambit?

- You're dodging my question(s) by asking me questions. You're so scummy right now.

[Venmar]

Also, why has IceGuy been behind all the wrong wagons? 2Birds and MalaKittens, he tried to push both of their lynches pretty hard, and Voided before both of them. He wanted to vote all of them off of speculation and guessing, but when FuDuzn became a victim of a guilty, IceGuy took a step back and didn't want to push an obvious scum. Why doesn't anyone notice this?

[Venmar]

My point is. You are scum.

[Venmar]

Scum (AKA IceGuy & ???), probably left me alive in hopes of framing for being FuDuzns partner and we tried a stupid gambit. Don't be fooled guys. I already told you guys what i am, a Night 2 Cop, but i am only a simple VT now.

Too scummy is not a reason to be town in my opinion. This isn't a newbie game and IceGuy isn't a newbie, that's for sure. It would make sense for IceGuy scum to push the two town mislynches on day 1 and day 2, not wanting to lynch a guilty-confirmed scum, and then trying to dispose of the possibly confirmed town who got the guilty on his partner by trying to frame him.

Dwayne, who is your number 1 pick for scum today? If it isn't IceGuy, who is?

I would like to hear from Delta and Scott, especially Delta because I am still intrigued in his "town as fuck" read on Scott.

[Venmar]

FuDuzn was a great investigation.. he wasn't on anyones scum list or town list.. not that i could see anyways.
IceGuy is either scum or he is trying to push another mislynch.

Also note that Voided was really the only person who actually was defending me, another reason for why scum would have killed him.

[Venmar]

This is stupid, is this setup going to penalize any cop who got a guilty? Because this is just frustrating, it makes claiming on this setup really hard.

[Venmar]

I claimed right after night 2.. my night where i was allowed to investigate. I got a guilty, so of course I claimed when i knew i was going to either get lynched that night or never get to use my power. Claiming on Day 4 would have been even harder because i would have to deal with a possible result from Night 3 cop. Even then that cop could have wasted a investigation on FuDuzn.

[Venmar]

I hate being classified as new.

People need to reconsider IceGuy scum.

[Venmar]

The activity in this game just DIED.

Ice, other than the events of yesterday, what do you have on Venmar?

He doesn't play like a cop who got a guilty.

- Why? You do realize i only had 1 investigation all game. You can't treat me as if i was a full fledged cop. IF you only have 1 shot at investigating, and you hit scum, you lynch that scum because your a VT from that point on.

The rest is repetitions, AtE ("This is stupid, is this setup going to penalize any cop who got a guilty? Because this is just frustrating, it makes claiming on this setup really hard.") and a few questions.

- The thing you use as an example was the only time i said that, thus not a repetition.

[Venmar]

- Why? You do realize i only had 1 investigation all game. You can't treat me as if i was a full fledged cop. IF you only have 1 shot at investigating, and you hit scum, you lynch that scum because your a VT from that point on.

I'm referring to your "LYNCH NOW DON'T THINK DON'T DISCUSS" behavior, followed by "What, IceGuy is against rushing the lynch through without thinking and/or discussion? LYNCH HIM NEXT".

- Still doesn't really answer what i addressed. I got a guilty, what was there to discuss other than who his partners could be? You were all like " Wait.. uuh... what? No No let's NOT lynch, even if he was confirmed scum ". I don't think you realize how stupid of a gambit this would be between me and FuDuzn, and it obviously isn't "perfect" like you made it out to be because you seemingly "figured" it out, even though it isn't true.

IceGuy, if you had to choose a second lynch target other than me, who would it be?

[Venmar]

I have no idea on how to argue with you anymore.

Why would ConfidAnon make sense as my partner at all? If we were to pull off this "gambit", why would he have tried to buss me both day 1 and day 2?

What made you so suspicious of absta?

[Venmar]

I have no idea on how to argue with you anymore.

How about addressing the points in my post? You said "what was there to discuss other than who his partners could be", yet didn't make any effort in that direction except for two sentences, one saying that Scott and I are "gut scum", and the other one accusing me of being scum after advancing the gambit theory? You claimed the gambit would be stupid, why?

- Well, Scott is just gut and i might be leaning away from a Scott lynch. Gut still tells me that he is a good target due to previous events. An alternative to Scott could be Dwayne or Absta. Natalie made a prediction before last day ended, that it was possible that DeltaWave could have gotten an innocent result on Scott, where the " town as fuck" read would have made sense, and especially followed by his behavior of not wanting to explain it for a short while. I don't want to rolefish here, Delta you don't have to answer this, but if this could be answered, we will have a 4 man lynch pool to choose from. ( IceGuy, Dwayne, Absta, Natalie ).

- Why would I buss FuDuzn only to be caught by you, like now? You clearly saw the way i dealt with the lynch wasn't very subtle or concealing, so i was bound to attract attention. So why would I be the one bussing FuDuzn rather than the other way around, where as FuDuzn would have done a much better job at it? He wasn't under as much heat as me, so wouldn't his claim be extra believable? Plus he is more experienced and a better talker than me. Furthermore, why wouldn't my partners have told me to execute it in a better fashion as to not attract your attention as i have now? The only thing about my claim that points to me being scum is possibly the timing, which i admit was suspicious, but i claimed ASAP and the fact i was under heat was just a coincidence.

Why would ConfidAnon make sense as my partner at all? If we were to pull off this "gambit", why would he have tried to buss me both day 1 and day 2?

Because bussing happens, and him continuing his suspicions for two days isn't extraordinary either, just dropping his suspicions on you would've been suspicious, and it was clear Mala was the lynch on D2..

- But why would he keep attempting to buss me if we were planning to do the "gambit"?

[Venmar]

This is not genuine scumhunting.

- Funny, you think i am scum but still expect me to scumhunt? I thought scum couldn't scumhunt...

Actually, you investigating FuDuzn makes a lot more sense than the other way round, because you were under heavy fire. Investigating a player that is likely getting lynched is a lost investigation - he's getting lynched anyway. There weren't a lot of solid FuDuzn reads though.

- Doesn't explain how you thought the gambit was "perfect", and how it worked out for me.

Also, I'm pretty sure you didn't intend to behave in a scummy way, but that's true for anybody. I can imagine you (plural) deciding you (singular) should play the cop in the hope of your behavior getting explained away as "newbtown excited to have found scum".

- I didn't use the "newbtown that found a scum" as a excuse, others have done so for me. I am a N2 cop, i didn't hope for anything but to get my guilty lynched.

@Delta, out of that "possible" lynch pool, which two do you think are the likeliest to be scum?

[Venmar]

So...your point is that you are scum?

- Why are you being so obtuse?

In most games, a cop claim out of the blue would've been more suspicious, and a counterclaim could have happened, both of which can't happen here due to the setup

- This is so hilarious, because I think a counterclaim was exactly what you were wishing for last day phase by hoping someone counterclaims by saying they got a guilty on me or innocent on FuDuzn. You sounded pretty desperate for one of the two, ignoring the fact that cop would have to be N2 or a N1. Even in that case, it looks like Delta was from N1. Did you just screw up your logic?

Unfortunately, it seems to be working out rather well for you, seeing most people don't want to lynch you. But I'm trying to change that.

- That's all nice and all, but you're not doing much to convince them now are you by arguing with me? Your effort is valiant, keep trying.

[Venmar]

Why do you ignore my point?

- Thats not a "point". Assuming i am scum by misrepping what I said isn't a "point", it is an assumption. And quite frankly i didn't address it because it wasn't true. And it still doesn't change the fact that your assumption, or how you like to put it, "point", is obtuse.

Nice spin. I wasn't "wishing" for it, I was waiting until everybody had their chance to say a possible claim.

- Soo... a claim that counters what i claimed..? So you were waiting for a counterclaim? ...But I thought you just said... Yeah. Also, it doesn't change the fact you wanted a reason to lynch me, or at least turn the tables on me. Refusing to accept the fact FuDuzn was scum through a guilty investigation and hoping that wasn't true by trying to pin the cop as scum, while knowing the chances of a second N2 Cop and a second N1 Cop were extremely low, is just suspicious, and in my eyes, scummy.

No.

- Yes.

[Venmar]

I might have to agree with Scott about his assumption. I am done arguing with IceGuy.

Absta is a good compromise vote, but a IceGuy lynch sounds much better to me.

Also, are you seriously claiming that waiting for possible claims (because not everybody has checked in) before hammering is a scummy move? Answer "yes" or "no" only, please.

- In this case, yes, because a claim was not possible.

[Venmar]

No, IceGuy, I AM TIRED, of arguing with you. It is going NOWHERE for the both of us, so i'm done.

I want others to chime in, this has become a ICeGuy/Venmar thread and people have taken ad advantage of that by not talking much.

[Venmar]

Hellraiser / IceGuy scumteam?

[Venmar]

Scared? I am far from scared. I am not entitled to answer your questions because you are obviously cuddling up to IceGuy by agreeing with all he has been saying and putting me down as a suspect. I have no intention to argue with you because i can already see I will be arguing with a brick wall like with IceGuy.

[Venmar]

My point, has been made.

[Venmar]

Close, but not close enough. I don't think he would have that kind of arrogance and that anger when getting suspected if he was town. The other things I can accept as over-excited town but not his arrogance. I think that's a heavy scum tell. Add to that his previous behaviour and yeah - I think

I've caught scum

.

- Nah. My arrogance was because I got a guilty, i wasn't interested in debating with FuDuzn whether he was guilty or not because he was mod confirmed to be scum to me by the mod. IceGuy trying to slow down the game for reasons i knew were not possible hit me on a different level as a cop just made me ticked off.

Yeah, me. But CES, feel free to mass prod. We really need some activity here.

- Yup. We do. Proceed to make us do all the work will you.

[Venmar]

we will have a 4 man lynch pool to choose from. ( IceGuy, Dwayne, Absta, Natalie ).

nevertheless, this is an adequate lynch pool

- Do you still think the absta slot is the best lynch for today? Who is your second highest scum read / who are the scum?

[Venmar]

I can live with a Hellraiser lynch, I prefer a IceGuy lynch as well though.

[Venmar]

Oh, and in case it's not obvious where they are coming from, their second "suspect" and other possible lynch is the second person who agrees with Venmar ( Natalie )

[Venmar]

The Truth is, Scott and Delta are town, and if they can bring up a better lynch target, i'm with them.

[Venmar]

Well, at least I know who I am NOT playing with again in future games.

[Venmar]

IceGuy wants to lynch town players now. THIS IS NOT OUR OBJECTIVE.

[Venmar]

Not a misrep. You are willing to lynch Natalie regardless if she is scum or not, and that's bad.

[Venmar]

Ok. But saying you would lynch her just to avoid having her in LyLo means you're willing to lynch her if she was town.

[Venmar]

Hellraiser is officially answering for IceGuy. Buddying noted.

[Venmar]

Where did I say I was going to turn it into a Policy Lynch? Having intent to lynch town players is not a town mindset.

My thoughts are my own. I don't actually give a damn what you think my motives are, or what you think of me, but I know I am town so your guess is wrong.

PEdit: Lol.
PEdit2: Lol.

[Venmar]

OMG. OMG. OMG.

/headdesk
/headdesk two
/headdesk three

[Venmar]

Why, would you want to lynch a town player and go into LyLo rather than try and lynch scum to AVOID LyLo? This makes no sense from a towns perspective. " Oh hey, i know that if we mislynch we go into LyLo, but you know what, let's MISLYNCH this guy because I feel like we should go into LyLo, but without him ".

[Venmar]

Even if you

think she's not scum

, she's still a good lynch because she shouldn't be in LyLo.

- The bolded hints she would be town, so the rest of the sentence is in the PoV that she is town. You never mentioned her being a Scum VI in this post.

[Venmar]

Iceguy, want to do a 1v1.

[Venmar]

How does lynching town ( thus, bringing scum closer to their win condition ), fulfill your town win condition. Even in LyLo, i would rather have a VI who i know is town than strangers i don't trust. Lynching town is always bad when you think the person you're voting is town.

Nice deflection of my question though.

IceGuy, want to do a 1v1.

[Venmar]

Where did you go IceGuy?

[Venmar]

Between this group:

Natalie
Dwayne
Hellraiser

If IceGuy is confident in me being scum, he should accept the 1v1.

PEdit: Pussy, someone isn't confident in their "scum" read.

[Venmar]

*Yawn*

[Venmar]

Going to wait for Scott and Delta, i want their opinions on this.

[Venmar]

Good Job Sherlock, without your KEEN, IMPENETRABLE, AWESOME skills, I wouldn't have realized.

Your post was also fluff. A+

[Venmar]

Not lynching Dwayne while IceGuy is around.

[Venmar]

Scott, Delta, Ser, Hellraiser, please move your vote to IceGuy or explain why you won't.

[Venmar]

You're not supposed to reveal what night they work on.

[Venmar]

*sigh*

I am at a loss right now, but I am going to remind everyone that this is LyLo so let's take this nice and slowly.

However, I am pretty sure the scum is in this group: Dwayne, Natalie, and Hellraiser, this is all assuming DeltaWave is town and is responsible for the Scott town.

[Venmar]

We were derp town? Why did you trust our judgment on IceGuy then?

[Venmar]

Not to mention you weren't even clear in that post, so misrep is bound, and looks awfully like you worded it as a fallback so that you can do what you just said.

[Venmar]

So you think me and Netalie are town, Delta is probably obv town at this point... that leaves only Hellraiser as a possible scum suspect. There is something wrong with your reads because you have no room for his partner, not to mention Hellraiser looks townier than you and Natalie due to the IceGuy lynch.

[Venmar]

Where did I say you and SED were a scumteam?

[Venmar]

Delta, where is that VCA you promised long time ago?

[Venmar]

I said he looked townier, I didn't say we should exclude him from pairings or suspicions. Dayne looks like the best lynch right now regardless.

[Venmar]

The last time you mentioned Absta/Hell, he was "null", what changed?

A great gust of POE hit.

- Not much of an explanation really, doesn't hold much water in my eyes.

- Still debating what the correct lynch today will be, I am leaning Dayne, but I might be wrong. Hellraiser could have been scum who was bussing his partner ( Dayne ) for big town credit while cuddling up to IceGuy for even more town credit, seeing how quick I wanted to lynch him. Dayne could be scum for the association to Hellraiser, while also having other well known evidence put on him. The Natalie slot is a bit trickier, as I usually see players replacing out, while not really being under much pressure, as a towntell. Given that the reason Absta replaced out was because he wasn't keeping up, his slot very well could be town because I have seen him replace out as town in another Open Game a while ago, which is completed by now.

- I might be overthinking this, but in order of likelyness to lynch, I would go Dayne, Hellraiser, and Natalie. I do realize I said Hellraiser is the likeliest to be the tonwiest of the three, but thinking again and how quickly the public wants to hound at Dayne, is making me think again who is scum and who is town.

- In addition, if you have ANY innocents or guilties, I think it is time to claim as this is LyLo, any investigation would be nice. I'm looking at you Delta, it still hasn't been confirmed if you investigated Scott.

[Venmar]

I don't know why Scott was killed, do you? I was on the assumption Scott was killed because he thought I was town and was pointing out facts like me and IceGuy were a town vs town debate. None of us knew if DeltaWave investigated Scott Night 1, it wasn't confirmed. Innocents ARE useful in my opinion because we are in LyLo, we need to pick out players who we know, are town.

Also, i don't think it was WIFOM, more of just me overthinking scenarios if you guys were town or scum for doing what you guys did. In the end i came to the conclusion that Natalie could be town due to how Absta replaced out, and I put you in second place in the lynch order. Could this possibly be why you want me to drop my speculation?

[Venmar]

This is LyLo, so i don't know why you are talking about suspects? If Delta investigated someone than he is a VT right now... and by your logic why am I still alive?

I find your focus on night suspects kind of a weird focus for a town player as of the moment.

[Venmar]

Well, how about I vote for Dayne and see if he is hammered?

[Venmar]

Omfg. I was away for the whole day.