Open 445: Fight or Flight - {Game Over!}

[Om of the Nom]

Hi guys.
I have a cold right now, so I probably won't be of much use for a few days.

[Om of the Nom]

Feel better Ommy <3

Thanks, I seem to be through the worst of it now. It'll hopefully be gone by tomorrow.

VOTE: Matt
Not voting is scummy in RVS.

Uhhh, I had the first RVS post, and I didn't vote either. Why is he so special compared to me? Why don't I get a vote :P
VOTE: Salamence

[Om of the Nom]

What makes you think I didn't vote because I'm sick?
Your reason for voting Matt was that he didn't put down an RVS vote, but why did you call him out and not me too?

[Om of the Nom]

Hi Salamence, how are you doing today?

[Om of the Nom]

Why does this sound like the 3 little bears :\
I haven't played this setup IIRC.

[Om of the Nom]

Hi Salamence, how are you doing today?

I'm doing fine, are you feeling better?

Glad to hear that, I'm almost completely better now, I just have a few lingering headaches.

VOTE: absta
I like this vote better now.
Call it gut~

[Om of the Nom]

Since people want me to explain, I'll mention that this post is what ticked me off.

Hi Salamence, how are you doing today?

I'm doing fine, are you feeling better?

You're looking more scummy by the post.

Here absta just says Sala is getting scummier with each post he does, which is just a cheap way to feign suspicion on someone without a valid reason or a need for an explanation. He generalises Sala's posts instead of addressing the content in his posts individually, which is a great way to feign having a response to all of his posts. He doesn't actually explain why his post was scummy.

[Om of the Nom]

And now, when voted to L-1, he doesn't choose to ask me for any elaboration or a proper reason on why I voted him. Instead he chooses to discredit my vote on him and tries to give a general impression that I had no reason to vote him therefore it's scummy.

[Om of the Nom]

Guys the scum is probably absta/Mala, if not Mala I'm betting it's uctriton.

[Om of the Nom]

Also I might mention I've started making a list of my thoughts for notable posts in this game to try and help improve my focus. I can post some of it if you guys want me to.

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You don't just get a gut feeling out of nowhere, it has to stem from something. Generally it's caused by something I read that gave me weird vibes for an unknown reason, and the gut read just gives me an excuse to try and see if I can elaborate on that further.
1. No, I don't think I know what it is, please explain instead of assuming I already know what it is so you don't have to bother. Why is my supposed defense of Sala scummy? He's currently my 4th suspect tbh, just not as strong as you/Mala/uct.
2. He hasn't asked you why and I don't think he ever will. Why do you have to wait for his approval before you can give your explanation?
Nice discrediting of my reasons btw.
I'll let you off for this last part because you fail to realise what gut actually is.

[Om of the Nom]

So far you're scum for the suggestion of a Maxous/uct team where both reads seemed to come out of left field and didn't really have much backing to them, indirectly discrediting my absta vote without addressing it directly and lastly for the waffliness about your usage of gut.
Admittedly it's not as much as I have on uct but I'm not completely sure if I think uct is scum yet, which is why I think you're more likely to be scum than him.

[Om of the Nom]

\
Uct is probably scum though.

Him/Maxous

were the last to confirm and

they probably had strategy talk before the game

confirming last gives the more time. I was checking Max's visits he wasn't on the site until he posted. >.>

Yep sure you didn't' suggest a Max/uct team.

Yes you did in your response to uct, "Don't worry Uct your vote on absta wasn't good either."

[Om of the Nom]

Then where did the 'either' come from? He didn't express any form of dissatisfaction at my vote on absta, he only seeked a further explanation than the one already presented at the time.

Okay Ommy are you scum? You are acting like scum now.

The vibes are strong in this one.

[Om of the Nom]

If you want a quick summary of my scumread on you in meta terms then, you're scum because I feel you have a distinct lack of need for everyone to read your posts. You don't really care if other people are reading what you say or not, you're just trying to look townish.
I'll respond to the rest of this stuff tomorrow.

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The fact you call me scum for calling you scum by meta when you seem to call me town when I call you town for meta really just makes you more obvious.

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Also you actually forget that my scumread on you wasn't even based on meta in the first place, it just helps to support it.

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And you're still scum :D

I wasn't reaction testing you <3

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I just had a discussion with someone about using that phrase as a defense, and we both agreed it almost always comes from scum (or at least in the instances we've seen). Keep proving me right Mala :D

At least defend yourself by mentioning you're a good guy, instead of just saying you aren't a bad one. It sounds better that way.

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Whether or not you've adequately explained it I still have lasting suspicions on you but I am not expecting you to defend against me calling you scum unless I provide something to actually defend against.
Also I self-meta defend myself all the time.

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Oh yeah, I almost forgot that I need to pick someone to buddy this whole game.
Maxous you are super townie obvtown in my eyes and you are basically the only townie I'm definitely sure is town other than me.
MattiLou isn't far behind either.

[Om of the Nom]

Uhhh Mala, I'm not going to say you're wrong this game, but lately I've been great at mixing my town and scum meta (and in the process, forming a new town meta) because I've won my last two scum games in a row. It's why I'm not using meta as a defense since it's not really that valid anymore.
I'll reply to the stuff I said I would reply to after I check other games.

[Om of the Nom]

@Om

Salamanca's post is scummy because it provides no content to support town. "Increasingly scummy" because the post before was "ZZZZZ" (no content as well).

- You're defending Salamanca by way of attacking me.
- Scum motivation for your defence is to either buddy Salamanca or protect him (depending on Salamanca's alignment).

I don't always provide content to support town either, doesn't mean I'm scum. If he's constantly and consciously deciding that he's not going to give content to the town then you should worry. All he did was two fluff posts, I've done way more as town and probably in a shorter timespan too.
I'm not defending Sala at all, I'm just attacking you (although I'll admit my sentence above is kinda defending him). I haven't called him town at all this game and I still have him as a scumread? Why would I need to defend a scumread from another scumread of mine?

I'll let you off for this last part because you fail to realise what gut actually is.

This is terrible and vote worthy.
VOTE: Om

You really can't make a good reason to park your vote on me can you? All your votes seem to have one-liner reasons to wagon hop.

Ommy link me to a game where scum have used that phrase in a setence.

I don't pay attention to where I've seen it, so I couldn't recall any, but I know it sounds really fishy to me.

[Om of the Nom]

Max, if you'd like more, I can continue. Hard to read such back and forth arguments though. I abstained from more commenting to try and keep my post concise. I get the feeling from Absta that he could be one of those players who gets excessively angry and defensive when they feel cornered or close to being caught. I'm actually one of them when I play in person. I find Max reasonably trustworthy, but he has been flying under the radar a bit since most have marked him innocent. Uct is taking a lot of hits, making me think if he is scum, then his partner is bus throwing him. I don't quite know how to feel about Om, Mala or Sal yet.

And there you have it, A brief summary of the opinions of Mattie. I don't want to suggest a team yet though.

I might just mention, unless it's a huge fucking wall just mention me in every paragraph and I'll read it whether it's concise or not.
I disagree about Maxous, I just think he hasn't been around too much, regardless of all the townreads on him.
Who do you think Uct's partner could be?
Can you give a clearer opinion on who you think is town and who you think is scum? Null reads aren't bad either.

[Om of the Nom]

@Ommy the fact you are comparing someone else's meta to me when you say scum always scum aren't scum when they are.
Find in any of my scum games where I have said "I'm not scum or I am not scum.". That's thing just because SOMEONE else said it doesn't necessarily mean because someone else says it has to be true. Everyone thinks differently, everyone posts differently and everyone acts different. It's like calling an orange a tennis ball when they are two totally different things.

Just because you haven't done it before doesn't mean you can't do it. I never claimed scum before as scum but then in one of my scum games I claimed scum with the mod, and managed to get someone lynched because they overreacted to it. If you're a smart scum player, and I think you definitely can be, you would know the key to being a good scum player is keeping everyone on their toes by changing how you play every time.

The fact that he fails to link an example to my #58.

That's because it was one of the things I said I was going to respond to today :P

[Om of the Nom]

@Everyone

- Naming scum teams without a scum flip is anti-town. You get into deep confirmation bias and it guides town in directions that make little sense.

Only if you name scumteams through possible connections. My guess of You/Mala is due to you both being my top scumreads, and so if one of you flips scum (like you absta) I can go connection hunting and find the last scum.
Confirmation bias can come even from just having a normal scumread.

[Om of the Nom]

I'm leaning closer to uct being town now since I don't think scum would really go into all that effort to meta everyone in the game.
Maxous should totes vote absta with me, then we can be townie bros :D

[Om of the Nom]

Happy birthday Uct :D

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Post.

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Nice to see absta has totes avoided me for at least two days now since he's defintiely been onsite and posting since I last posted.

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The game hasn't even gone on for a week or even passed 5 pages.

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That's why you need to be observant and try to question as much as possible.
Tbh, I've been deliberately holding back a few things so I can put them into my personal QT where I keep track of everything.

[Om of the Nom]

So I try to put in a lot of effort than I normally would in a game in a deliberate attempt to improve my play, only for someone to try and break the game and essentially give me and the rest of the town a confirmed win anyway?
:\
UNVOTE:
I'd love to see why RD thought the absta wagon was ugly when I'm the only one who was really pushing it.

[Om of the Nom]

Hi DoubleJD, how are you?

[Om of the Nom]

Because I totally haven't explained any of my reasons or developed them further at all nope nothing like that :P

Fine, you, me, Mala wagon. Let's fucking do this.
VOTE: Malakittens

PEDIT: Shhh, you're not in the game anymore :P

[Om of the Nom]

Om is quite vocal, but I feel the multiple posts and such don't add as much to the discussion as they seem to at first.

I'm supposed to be adding to the discussion?
NOW I GET IT!
I'm mainly aiming to have fun anyway, that why I totes fluff like a motherfucker.

[Om of the Nom]

So..Many..Walls...
Just tell me what to do when you guys have made a decision and I'll be all set.
Or stop walling, either one works :P

[Om of the Nom]

Mala
Uct
DJD
Idk

[Om of the Nom]

Thats interesting. Why UCT and why me om?

Earlier in the game I said my scumreads were absta-Mala-Uct-Sala in that order. Nothing has changed since then except my absta read, so I'm curious why you're surprised.
I can give reasons soon though. Let me respond to things first.

[Om of the Nom]

1) Any objections to my plan
2) Who their prefered lynch is
3) Who are the two that should shoot eachother
4) Who the third that gets brought into the loop if the lynch is scum is

No.
Mala.
Uct/Sala.
Matti (been getting slightly bad vibes from his posts, I'm thinking maybe I was a bit too quick to call him town).

[Om of the Nom]

Though I'm fine with lynching Uct too, they're almost completely interchangeable on that list.

[Om of the Nom]

Okay, I'm doing some ISO's and I started out with Matti's. I didn't actually bother with the whole ISO, as just around the 7th post in there she became a scumread.

Mattilou -
Don't like the waffliness in ISO #0. The first sentence is also kinda odd. Not enough to call her scum though.
I don't particularly like the discrediting of absta's vote in ISO #1, but at least she follows up with some questions.
The assumed reason for voting in ISO #2 doesn't sound very good. It looks like she came to a conclusion that is unobtainable with just the information in the thread. I also feel like she's trying to make a few attacks towards absta but she backs off almost straight after she does them (e.g. the first two sentences in that post).
I don't like the obliviousness to almost everything that went on between ISO #2 and ISO #3 in #3. I feel like she could have commented on more of what happened between then.
I don't like how everything in ISO #5 is mainly related to Matti, I feel like she's only trying to respond to things directed at her while not commenting on anything else. Also she changed her assumed reason for absta's vote on her (which she then kinda lead into an attack but backed off again almost immediately). The post feels a little jumbled too, but that's probably just bad formatting.
ISO #6 seems like she's kinda complaining about why she can't do much. It's almost like AtE, but not quite, more like she's just trying to play the Newbie card as an excuse. I don't like the lack of clear opinions about her reads though, she only states what she thinks could be happening instead of what she thinks

is

happening.

I'll do a few more later.

[Om of the Nom]

Welp, that's odd. You complain about how nobody is scum hunting or arguing at all and then list me as your scumread despite being a large driving force (or at least taking parts in arguments) of the early game arguments/scumhunting.
You discredit all the past reads in the game without even bothering to provide reasons as to why they are shit or based on nothing or even bothering to provide your own reads and reasons (this is just based on the post above me, I wasn't paying attention to anything else you've really said so I might be wrong).

[Om of the Nom]

I'm not playing the same way I was in Masons and Mafia because this game I'm actively making an effort to improve my play and also my logic (since that is what a lot of my reads are based on this game, gut is just a secondary measure). In Masons and Mafia I was just buddying everyone, using gut for a lot of my reads and basically coasting along without doing much, but I'm trying to change that this game.

The more I think about it, the more I'm reading DJD as town anyway.
I wonder why Matti put me on the list for people to shoot assuming town flip? Please explain, since a scumread on me came out of nowhere for you.
I agree with RD about Max's latest post, especially regarding the false dilemma. He hasn't even tried to explain why our interactions are bad.
A false dilemma is basically when someone creates a dilemma that doesn't really exist. The dilemma here is that the interactions between RD and I are bad, but they aren't despite you portraying it that way. Maybe if you can explain it it won't become so false.

So basically my reads right now are:
Scum: Matti/Uct/Mala
Null: Max
Town: DJD/ＲＤ

[Om of the Nom]

First day should actually be the longest, since it's where we get the basis for all of our reads, and if we have nothing to base our reads on, getting them later will be hard to do.

[Om of the Nom]

No, RD is like the most towniest obvtown in this game and I'll sheep her shamelessly until the end of the universe itself.
You were setting up a connection between us that you have still yet to prove even exists.
It gives you something to "pursue" later on if you don't have any "suspects".

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Hrmmm i lean town on UTC for deciding to call me towny instead of scummy. Seems weird and against the waves

Because I totally didn't do that either on the very first post on this page.

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Yeah, the "interactions" comments definitely explains at least part of what RD was talking about, since as I just said it leaves us open for more pursuing on your part later on in the game.

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Hrmmm i lean town on UTC for deciding to call me towny instead of scummy. Seems weird and against the waves

Because I totally didn't do that either on the very first post on this page.

And?

Being the third person to say "Ya, i tihnk djd is town" and being the first are two very different things. The first is going against the current, the third is going with it.

The focus on Uct's townread without a mention of mine is kinda odd, though maybe it's just my self-esteem being hurt :P

[Om of the Nom]

Nope.

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I have a problem with Uctriton being lynched

That's surprising.

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I'm surprisingly fine with it being RBD/Mala/Myself as the 3 who should definitely survive N1 despite my scumread on Mala.

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I'm fine with that plan.

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I know I'm not scum too and I'm not particularly happy about dying either but I don't really mind it if I get shot for town to be in a better position.

I don't know if I should put my vote on Uct or not since by what RBD said just then he'd rather wait for more discussion.

[Om of the Nom]

I can't, deadline is 6AM for me, and I'm not waking up that early :P

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I can do that.
You should probably put it in bold font and large size which night action post we're supposed to be following, just so people don't miss it.

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Okay, I'm going to sleep now.
VOTE: Uctriton
Night y'all.

[Om of the Nom]

RBD, what did you roll?
I commuted last night.

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Mala, wanna lynch RBD with me?

[Om of the Nom]

(btw RBD Happy Birthday :D)

[Om of the Nom]

Mala, wanna lynch RBD with me?

[Om of the Nom]

Think about it, RBD's play works perfectly for him as scum.
He replaces in, and tries to "break" the setup to appear pro-town, when really he's just trying to kill off all of the townies in as smart a way as possible.
He knew that Uctiton was going to flip scum since he was his buddy, so he set up the Night actions to shoot almost anyone but him. He decided to put himself in the "Shoot if Uctiton is town" pile to give himself some towncred, as if to say he's fine with dying.
Then, come nightfall, he doesn't even commute. Which shows that he's not afraid of death, since obviously he was the one causing it. Any lone scum not in the circle could have easily shot you, me or RBD to win the game now.
His lack of commute and his push for a no lynch (since he seems to be talking about having night actions for another night, if I'm reading it correctly) mean he's going to use his commute tonight (if there is one) so that he won't get shot, and I presume he still thought that I thought you were scum, meaning I probably would have shot you and lost us the game.

NONE of this makes sense if you're scum. You've been playing in the moment instead of trying to plan ahead.

[Om of the Nom]

Nope, scum can and WILL bus especially if it can confirm them.
I know this since my very first scum win I bussed my buddy hard and got him lynched D1 and then went on to win the game by myself.

[Om of the Nom]

If we lynch today, and the lynchee flips town, then that's it, SCUM WIN.
If we don't lynch today, and since I'm the only one who has used his commute I'm the obvious shot tonight because I can't defend myself, meaning SCUM WIN.
RBD is trying to set you up to get us to go to night so he can shoot me for a win. Don't give in.

[Om of the Nom]

Why would I be lying to you? I'm town you dit :P Trust me.
Though I'm not voting until I get a response from RBD.

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Your gamebreaking is putting you in a great position as scum because A) it's not something scum would normally do, giving you lots of towncred and B) your experience means people are much likely to follow you and your plans.
I can't pinpoint exactly where you mask the correct choice because as town I wouldn't have known what the correct choice was. You've just been kind of inching us closer towards killing other townies instead of truly inching us towards killing the last scum.
You wouldn't risk a shot on someone else in case they commuted, since then you wouldn't be able to kill anyone else and it be so much harder for you to win.
I didn't bring it up because A) I'm selfcentered so I wanted to be the guy who saves the day in a dire situation (lol), and B) I never really thought about it until the Ucticon flip, and I was really sure until the Night results.

[Om of the Nom]

Great way to misconstrue basically everything I said against you.

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You forgot didn't commute, which puts you in a great position tonight (if there is one).
Even if you don't auto-win 1v1 during Night, you could just commute and then endgame the last townie.

[Om of the Nom]

AS MUCH AS I WOULD LIKE TO DENY IT
MALA'S USELESSNESS SO FAR THIS LYLO IS GIVING ME DOUBTS

RBD ARE YOU ACTUALLY SCUM?
BE TRUTHFUL.

[Om of the Nom]

Look.
I've been playing in the moment, and making my decisions out of nowhere.
RBD has been trying to plan ahead constantly and has been put on a pedestal of towniness for "breaking" the game (which is the optimal position for him as scum).

Frankly I'm tempted to just 1v1 with RBD and give Mala the win if she's actually scum.

[Om of the Nom]

Didn't you see me making an effort to change my meta earlier in the game?
I was trying to be more logical, instead of primarily gut based.
I even made a QT for myself, in which I could post observations and thoughts that I had on the game instead of just doing it based on memory.

[Om of the Nom]

Look, I'm not going to use meta as my defense since I know I'm definitely making an effort to change it this game. But take a look at my play this game- especially early-game- and you will see that I was willing to attack and to argue with my scumsuspects and I was pushing for their lynches and voicing my suspicions. I was not, in any way trying to base my moves later on in the game based on the flip of the lynchee, and I was not trying to direct the town to shoot each-other in ways based off the flip of the lynchee.
If RBD is scum, basing things off Uct's flip would have been perfect, since RBD would already have known Uct was going to flip scum, so he would have had the advantage of making sure everyone in that circle was town. He knew Uct was going to flip scum, which is why he put himself in the list of people to shoot if he flips town, since he knew he wouldn't be shot and it would give him towncred since it looked like he was willing to die.

[Om of the Nom]

Ah, shit.
I don't know who to fucking choose.
It's either RBD, whose failed game breaking seems 'too' coincidental to be an accident.
Or it's Mala, who gave me really bad vibes in the early-game and is still giving me them now.

[thinking aloud]
Shit...
Mala seems to be trying to keep her options open right now, but as scum that's kinda stupid considering it's only 3p LYLO, which means she just needs to wait for someone to vote someone else then she could powah hammah. I don't feel she's making an effort to interrogate us any further, making me think she's either made her decision already but is just too nervous to act on it, or she's just waiting for me to vote RBD so she could hammer.
RBD discrediting of my case gives me terrible gutvibes, which when paired with my early-game absta scumread make a full-fledged scumread. absta's play was fucking terrible and reeked of scumvibes from literally everywhere, but then RBD came in and turned it all around. But looking back I think I was just stupid for going along with the plan in the first place.
RBD not using his commute makes a lot of sense from a scum POV, especially sine I think he would be smart enough to plan this far ahead.
Mala not using her commute gives me null vibes, I feel like she made that decision as a spur of the moment thing, and I don't think she is the type to plan that far ahead as scum. But I can't hake the bad gut vibes I'm getting, even though it's highly likely it's just due to paranoia.
[/thinking aloud]

Damnit, can you two just vote each-other? I feel like a fucking kingmaker here, so I'd much rather either take the blame for a loss, or the glory for a win.

[Om of the Nom]

I am around.
Just vote RBD.
RBD can vote you.
Just fucking trust me, I will NOT hammer.

[Om of the Nom]

Posting to say I'm not hammering.
I'm confirmed town now.

[Om of the Nom]

It does confirm me.
If I'm scum I basically would have ended the game there.

[Om of the Nom]

@Mod: What happens if the remaining scum and townie shoot each-other in the event of a mislynch today? What happens if neither of them die?

@RBD: Get your vote off me until the mod can answer these.

[Om of the Nom]

Argh tags :P

[Om of the Nom]

Actually wait...
If scum win a 1v1 if they are still alive (whether or not the townie is dead), this game is basically impossible to win unless we lynch scum today, since scum can always just commute during the night (except not me since I'm A)Town and B) out of commutes).

[Om of the Nom]

You know what?
VOTE: RBD
What made me decide it was you is how yesterday you were arguing that I'm highly unfamiliar with the setup, yet you vote me for an attempt to grab townies points that are supposedly not there. If I don't understand the mechanics then I wouldn't be doing it deliberately, which makes me think he's just using that as fluff to strengthen his case.

Mala, if you are scum, congrats.
RBD, if you're town, your plan put us from a normal position into an almost confirmed loss. This game is definitely not as breakable as you think.

[Om of the Nom]

Holy shit I was right!
Fuck that was intense as hell!
Man, I'm glad I managed to see through RBD instead of continuing to sheep him. That was great play on your part, you almost had me completely fooled.
GG all. This was definitely a great game for me. My initial reads were almost completely spot on.

@Mala: I probably would have not shot during the night, since I thought you would have commuted. Same goes as scum.

(postan from school)

[Om of the Nom]

This was the QT I was talking about btw.
I kinda ended up abandoning it after RBD replaced in since I went into sheepy sheep mode.