Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[Adam-12]

[Adam-12]

I don't find it odd and I can even explain it definitively if you want me to.

[Adam-12]

Btw Guille, is this all you have to say because we are going to be in a terrible time crunch on Monday...

[Adam-12]

Why would you lynch make him look bad? Why do you even care what it makes him look like? I don't want this for my team - make it seems like you KNOW his alignment.

I don't want Mollie to miss this and want an answer in thread.

I just found this. We need to link to the original post but this sounds like a good catch from Mala that was not responded to prior to Mollie's "Mafia-Tag-Team (TM)" replace-out.

[Adam-12]

am back in town. I have a question for all.
so who do you all think is the most scummiest among? pls answer.

Mollie.

[Adam-12]

Vote Count
Thor665 (L-4): Adam-12
ProHawk (L-4): Malakittens
Malakittens (L-4): Thor665
ArcAngel9 (L-4): Mantisdreamz
Mantis (L-3): Hawk, Bork

Not Voting: Guile, ArcAngel9, Leviathan93

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

As per Arc's request in her ISO I changed the OP to reflect replacements.

Thank you

Looks like everybody heading to vote Mantis.
Can someone tell how long we have before the day ends?

I want to see if Mantis want to defend herself if not, i lll vote her at the deadline.

I would ask that you please post your reads of at least your top 2-3 scum suspects and your overall take on the game so far?

[Adam-12]

@Angel: Have you even caught up because it sounds like from your post, "everyone is voting Mantis" that you don't understand why?

Vote Count
Thor665 (L-4): Adam-12
ProHawk (L-4): Malakittens
Malakittens (L-4): Thor665
ArcAngel9 (L-4): Mantisdreamz
Mantis (L-2): Hawk, Bork, Leviathan93

Not Voting: Guile, ArcAngel9

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

Vote Count
Thor665 (L-4): Adam-12
ProHawk (L-4): Malakittens
Malakittens (L-4): Thor665
ArcAngel9 (L-4): Mantisdreamz
Mantis (L-3): Hawk, Bork, Levi

Not Voting: Guile, ArcAngel9

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

This is NOT a vote count because only the Mod may post those.

Fuckin' right ya mangy cunt.

[Adam-12]

Mantis appears at L-2 at this time.

[Adam-12]

WIFOM surrounding a player is not a reason to lynch them unless its simply a policy lynch. In this case, the policy lynch would certainly be trumped by the skill of the player now in the slot.

It better to lynch scum than policy lynch over WIFOM.

[Adam-12]

Well as for as Guille is concerned, I am terribly underwhelmed at his performance so close to the deadline.

[Adam-12]

Well Mantis, on your vote for Bork I can agree but what is truly bizarre is that the only thing that he has done this game that makes any sense to me is his case on you. Granted I think he is wrong but his points about your play are true.

[Adam-12]

Adam, are you still feeling that Shrimp was town, and that Arc Angel is?

apologies if you have said this somewhere recently, but i don't remember.

Well, I am running with the fqact that Shrimp genuinely town slipped but that doesn't mean that I don't need to hear from Angel; don't like her last post at all.

[Adam-12]

Adam... you know you want in on this wagon. There is cog-dis written all over Mantis' posts.

I don't see cog-dis, I see wishy-washy/indecisive.

Bork/Mala isn't bad but I'd like to hear from Angel & Guille first.

[Adam-12]

Thor665 (L-4): Adam-12
Malakittens (L-4): Thor665
Bork (L-3): Mantisdreamz, Mala
Mantis (L-2): ProHawk, Borkjerfkin, Leviathan93

Not Voting: Guile, ArcAngel9

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Thank GOODNESS this isn't a vote count because if it was, I am certain the Mod would [do terrible unmentionable and censored things] to me!

[Adam-12]

As per Arc's request in her ISO I changed the OP to reflect replacements.

Thank you

Looks like everybody heading to vote Mantis.
Can someone tell how long we have before the day ends?

I want to see if Mantis want to defend herself if not, i lll vote her at the deadline.

I would ask that you please post your reads of at least your top 2-3 scum suspects and your overall take on the game so far?

I did put my list together. Didn't I?
I am suspicion of you and Mantis at this moment.

Wait, so nothing changed from your initial reads after only a few pages??

[Adam-12]

I hope i am not making mistake.

Vote: Mantis

Can you please explain why you have decided to vote for Manits?

[Adam-12]

Claim: not tracker.

[Adam-12]

Whoops, ya its better to just wait for CC's.

We simply need to hear from everyone before the day ends to verify the claim.

[Adam-12]

Mantis, you don't say I am ready to lynch someone while waffling on them, its cog-dis (ADAM!)

Sorry, I just read it as genuine confusion...

[Adam-12]

Thor665 (L-4): Adam-12
Malakittens (L-2): Thor665, Bork, Hawk
Bork (L-3): Mantisdreamz, Mala
Mantis (L-3): Leviathan93, Angel
Levi: (L-4): Guille

Not Voting:

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Thank GOODNESS this isn't a vote count because if it was, I am certain the Mod would [do terrible unmentionable and censored things] to me!

[Adam-12]

I am going to just assume that you don't care if we don't lynch anyone Adam?

Pardon me but I am at work and I am trying to think as clearly as I can. Let me look at this not-votecount for a sec.

[Adam-12]

I would like Levi & Angel to weigh on Mollie's play as I think Mollie>Mala.

I am thinking about joining the Bork wagon but he has made a substantive number of posts as of late and I need to analyze them.

[Adam-12]

What is really blowing my mind is that my 3 scum suspects are all voting each other...

[Adam-12]

If Angel wasn't shrimp I would be thinking she was scum right now. I still need to hear from her on my posts concerning her overall game view, whether she has genuinely caught up and her reasons for voting Mantis. Besides all that, I need to know what her read is on Mollie.

[Adam-12]

Well, while we are waiting, why is Bork>Mala?

And yes, I would love a Mollie/Thor lynch, but I think you and I are the only ones that would go for it.

Well I need to re-analyze Bork to see if he is >Mala.

I think Mollie-Thor is still viable for today depending on what Levi & Angel say.

[Adam-12]

I just don't see scum Bork coming in as a replacement to attack me that hard, doesn't make any sense for scum to call that much negative attention to themselves IMO.

Yes and that I hated his overall replacement as a whole.

If I buy your logic (which is partially why I have been sort of backing off of him) then Mala>Bork since her behavior was kind of the opposite.

[Adam-12]

I will be here every moment until the deadline. If we posit that both Levi & Angel won't be here then we have issues about getting a lynch....

[Adam-12]

Thor665 (L-4): Adam-12
Malakittens (L-2): Thor665, Bork, Hawk
Bork (L-3): Mantisdreamz, Mala
Mantis (L-3): Leviathan93, Angel
Levi: (L-4): Guille

Not Voting:

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Thank GOODNESS this isn't a vote count because if it was, I am certain the Mod would [do terrible unmentionable and censored things] to me!

[Adam-12]

If anyone wants to vote Mollie-Thor please let me know.

Vote Bork

[Adam-12]

[quote="In post 1496, Adam-12"]
Malakittens (L-2): Thor665, Bork, Hawk
Bork (L-2): Mantisdreamz, Mala, Adam
Mantis (L-3): Leviathan93, Angel
Levi: (L-4): Guille

Not Voting:

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Thank GOODNESS this isn't a vote count because if it was, I am certain the Mod would [do terrible unmentionable and censored things] to me!

[Adam-12]

Its up to Levi, Guille & Angel. They are all town reads for me but even so, Angel has alot of explaining to do.

[Adam-12]

Adam, why Bork over Mala?

I'd rather not go into too much detail now but they are both scum reads for me and I like my vote where it is.

[Adam-12]

lol that is gross and I take exception to it.

[Adam-12]

What is really blowing my mind is that my 3 scum suspects are all voting each other...

Then you are doing it wrong?

Maybe. But with 3 scum suspects I have to be wrong somewhere...

[Adam-12]

I want to post about this but work is murdering me. Mantis is substantially right here on Bork as I have also said elsewhere.

[Adam-12]

SOmeone do a vc

[Adam-12]

DEWD c'mon with names and everything my gosh

[Adam-12]

My gosh could you guys post any faster?

Let me try to analyze what we do have to ask pertinent questions if possible.

Majiffy will be back around 9pm EST I think he said in this thread.

[Adam-12]

Adam I will be posting the counts around here thank you very much mister.

Oh and also I probably won't be on until later the 17th so deadline will technically go till like 8 or 9 PM EST. Or something.

[Adam-12]

Well now that its over I can.

First I want to say that I don't like how all this went down. Bork was hammered without the opportunity to claim and should he flip as a town PR, I don't even. But I will take this up after I have had a chance to rest from a very stressful and demanding work session.

Simply, splitting the vote gives us the best opportunity to get reads post flip by watching who went where and who said what. For me personally it made alot of sense because both of my secondary scum suspects were on the block. I held back from commenting on it because I didn't want to reveal its usefulness prior to allowing it to do its job.

[Adam-12]

Ok, just got off of work. Ya that's my mistake for not removing my previous vote.

Now I need to process the thread.

[Adam-12]

Hammer now Levi, we don't know when Majiffy will come in to shut us down. Day should have ended a while ago if we were adhering to the official time-schedule.

Angel, because the day is over today and you need 5 votes to lynch.

VOTE: bork

These posts look especially bad.

[Adam-12]

I won't really be able to say very much that will make much sense until we actually get a flip.

I do support both the Bork & Mala wagons and would of voted either to avoid No Lynch.

Majiffy was guaranteed to give us until at least 7PM EST before he closed the thread.

Angel, your play is not to the level that I would expect from a person with your experience. If you have not read the thread I would ask that you do so over the 3 days we will have until Day 2 begins. At that time I would expect to see a good analysis of the game state with your top 2-3 scum candidates listed with reasons. I would also expect your posts/actions to start making sense from that point on.

Thor is like MIA!? I don't even.

Anything else I will reserve for the opening of D2.

[Adam-12]

Adam, why Bork over Mala?

I'd rather not go into too much detail now but they are both scum reads for me and I like my vote where it is.

If anyone wants to vote Mollie-Thor please let me know.

Vote Bork

Not quite as bad as that ^

Especially when Bork flips town.

So you know Bork is town?

[Adam-12]

Guaranteed? It sounded more like whenever he got on it was over to me.

Look at Borks posts Adam and tell me he isn't town.

If he posted that he was going to give us until 7, he wasn't about to jump into the thread before that and close it down; his statement was basically saying that we had until at least the minimum time he posted before he closed it.

Bork fits a scum profile of a lazy/bad replace-in. I find his case on Mantis opportunistic as I have already stated. I find his wagoning of Mala very weak and opportunistic. For the most part, I think he has skated by and slung mud wherever he felt he could get away with it.

I couldn't sit there as you have done and say that he is going to flip town however.

[Adam-12]

Well, Hawk rushed the hammer without allowing Bork time to claim. Its bad on its own merits.

[Adam-12]

I noticed you said that earlier about Guille and I would agree for him to be scum and say that would require skill.

I noticed that he skated around the major wagons at the end of the day and landed on Levi which I didn't like.

I think he brought up original points on Mollie which shows me that he was genuinely examining her posts. That looks good to me.

[Adam-12]

EBWOP: That is in reference to Mantis' #1624

[Adam-12]

Adam, why do you think mala is scum? because of what pro hawk mentioned?

Yes pretty much all of those reasons; I have stated as much in thread. I especially didn't like how she made that, "Hawk just hopped on Mollie's wagon" post to make Hawk look bad to Thor and I found her vote for Hawk subsequent to that as opportunistic BW-ing; her case on Hawk looks manufactured. Her first vote on Hawk was rather conveniently excused which I have mentioned. I have pointed out several such things in my summary post. Her case on Levi is just terrible for a person of her skill.

[Adam-12]

You will note that I didn't want to waste bork, I wanted to lynch scum, but a serving of scum wasn't up on the table today. Lynching a scum D1 would buy you more time, but a mis-lynch only makes it more risky to keep you around considering you may hold a scum-card.

I really don't like your certainty that Bork is town here. Using it to push suspicions/future cases is even worse; if Bork does flip town, you look very bad for goading Levi into it.

Vote Count
Malakittens (L-2): Thor665, Borkjerfkin, ProHawk
Borkjerfkin (L-0): Mantisdreamz, Malakittens, Adam-12, Guile, Leviathan93
Mantis (L-4): ArcAngel9

Not Voting: -

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

Well in examining your ISO I find it large. I would expect you know your way around a player analysis post and how to properly obtain scum reads and make cases; that is, unless you didn't want to.

[Adam-12]

Well, I really will need a fresh perspective but these will remain my thoughts of the day pre-flip.

[Adam-12]

I can properly obtain scum reads yes. Making cases? Not a strong point. I'm going to work with Tammy on that in the near future.

As a side note that is not this game related, I think its really kewl you are working on your game.

[Adam-12]

Levi, please sat that that paragraph was part of your mood shifts.

LOL. Scum making fun of people's cases upon themselves is a riot -- funny thing is that scum really do know the truth to a certainty.

[Adam-12]

Actually, I didn't find much in her defense that could definitively sway me either way; just the fact that she brought up school as the excuse but at the same time says that she is highly skilled at finding scum (but just in later days).

[Adam-12]

Actually, I didn't find much in her defense that could definitively sway me either way; just the fact that she brought up school as the excuse but at the same time says that she is highly skilled at finding scum (but just in later days).

maybe she's telling the truth. she could be town and be sincere that she

is

much better after a flip. it doesn't have to mean that she's saying that as scum and using that to stay in the game longer. in a way, that doesn't really sound like something scum would generally say, since it's something that might get people's backs up.

Well its not a main part of why I think she is scum but it is a great excuse if she is.

Whether she is telling the truth about school being the reason for her post-VLA play, I find doubtful in the light of her vote landing on Levi & the fluffy aimless nature of her summary post. Think a moment of how much time it took to put that together and her conclusions were like, I mean, I don't even. Her Levi/Hawk votes from that point looked completely manufactured.

[Adam-12]

Just skimming through that, did Set end up being scum?

[Adam-12]

LOL dewd was so overly-conscious of being spec'ed in the night. XD

Vote Count
Malakittens (L-2): Thor665, Borkjerfkin, ProHawk
Borkjerfkin (L-0): Mantisdreamz, Malakittens, Adam-12, Guile, Leviathan93
Mantis (L-4): ArcAngel9

Not Voting: -

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

That game looked super awesome btw. We should get a game like that going here.

[Adam-12]

I noticed that post too Mantis and it sounded town to me as well; if her summary post had been like that I would not have any problem with her play.

[Adam-12]

Ok, I think we should be analyzing things from the perspective of interactions with Bork all game long & interactions with the Bork wagon at the end of the day, to look for connections to the second scum. Both Mantis & Mala are obviously town for voting Bork early with a full field to choose from and I couldn't find anything scummy from Levi or Guille.

Hawk -- Gave Bork a town read from his entrance into the game & many players noticed it seemed arbitrary. I noticed that Post #528 has a sort of "coaching" sound to it. Post #1502 sums up why Hawk has declared Bork to be town and the major problem with it is that it depends on Hawk having a town alignment; the phenomenon of scum busing right out of the gate is well known however and Bork backed out of it rather conveniently (here and here), I noticed. Hawk opposed Bork's lynch one, two, three, four, five and six times but once Levi said he was ok with hammering, told Levi to hammer Bork; this looks like a "bus" in the face of an obvious scum lynch and it is also a rush to end the day which limits further information. I think Hawk's insistence that Bork is town after his lynch is a clever way to remain consistent in the face of a certain Bork scum flip.

Hawk's interactions with Bork this game are definitely scummy.

Mollie-Thor -- Mollie always called Bork scummy but never voted him. Thor called Bork "Townish" and included him in a scum list of two other players (Mantis/Levi) in post #1426; at this time Bork was not being voted at all. Because Thor went MIA for the last part of the day he was able to avoid commenting on the Bork wagon entirely and we were not able to see any of his actions in the face of the Bork wagon. Because of this, I tend to see his calling of Bork a possible distant scum, as risk-free protection for the future & I think he was certain Mala would be the lynch as evidenced by his earlier posts to Mala that she was everyone's second scum suspect.

I think Thor's actions at the end of the day were scummy due to being MIA.

Shrimp-Angel -- Shrimp is pretty clear that Bork is town. Angel expresses confusion if Bork is the replacement for Code and says she has no opinion of Bork. She declares interest in lynching Mantis and votes Mantis with no explanation other than the majority is voting her & "to keep the day moving". She then calls Mantis' Tracker claim into question as a scum claim. She prefers Mantis suspicion over Bork in post #1564. She makes no mention of Bork and unvotes Mantis (post #1583), voting Mala (after the hammer), she declares Mala as more scummy than Bork (after the hammer). There is no case for her as scum here unless she is newb-scum that was genuinely confused over whether the hammer had occurred.

I think Angel's actions are scummy regarding Bork but only if she is confused newb-scum.

Hawk & Thor show as the most scummy regarding Bork. Thor has a negative association (MIA) while Hawk has positive associations (heavy defending). I think I favor Angel as being newb-town over newb-scum however (voting anyone in the universe but Bork).

@Angel: Why did you unvote Mantis and vote Mala after the hammer had fallen?

@Thor: How do you explain not being here!?!

Vote Hawk

[Adam-12]

Do you know what I mean by "after the hammer had fallen"?

[Adam-12]

I have absolutely no way to read Angel.

[Adam-12]

Do you know what I mean by "after the hammer had fallen"?

You never answered my question.

If I ask a question about ABC you answer about 123; that wouldn't be bad if 123 was in someway linked to ABC but I don't see how your answer relates to my question at all.

[Adam-12]

Do you know what I mean by "after the hammer had fallen"?

You never answered my question.

If I ask a question about ABC you answer about 123; that wouldn't be bad if 123 was in someway linked to ABC but I don't see how your answer relates to my question at all.

Yes, I do know what it means. Why do you ask in first place?

Ok, why did you vote Mala after the hammer had fallen?

[Adam-12]

Hawk, I am considering your post and will be mulling it over.

[Adam-12]

You didn't see this!?

Your post is right below it. How could you of missed it!?

[Adam-12]

In fact the two posts are 1 minute apart and you would of gotten a system notification if it wasn't the last post in the thread!

[Adam-12]

Do you know what I mean by "after the hammer had fallen"?

You never answered my question.

If I ask a question about ABC you answer about 123; that wouldn't be bad if 123 was in someway linked to ABC but I don't see how your answer relates to my question at all.

Yes, I do know what it means. Why do you ask in first place?

Ok, why did you vote Mala after the hammer had fallen?

well i didn't see the last vote before me.

You didn't see this!?

Your post is right below it. How could you of missed it!?

In fact the two posts are 1 minute apart and you would of gotten a system notification if it wasn't the last post in the thread!

[Adam-12]

In fact the two posts are 1 minute apart and you would of gotten a system notification if it wasn't the last post in the thread!

Look, i saw levi's but didn't payed attention to it thinking that it require more votes for the lynch and i placed my vote, i later realized that levi's vote actually killed bork.

if you don't believe it. there is nothing i can do to make you believe on this.

Later? When is that exactly?

[Adam-12]

Really? And you don't need to answer the question? When exactly did you learn that Levi's vote killed Bork?

[Adam-12]

Ok, I'm really fed up with this.

I read Hawk's post and I find it quite town.

How about my vote stays here until you tell me when "later" you learned that Levi's vote killed Bork?

Unvote, Vote Angel

[Adam-12]

Malakittens (L-2):

Thor665, Borkjerfkin

, ProHawk

Tell me again how Bork was my buddy and how we lived in trembling fear of Mala's scumhunting prowess?

If I am right, this wagon analysis was AFTER the change back from Mantis. So its not actually back to back scum here; its just the way it worked out after the Mantis wagon.

[Adam-12]

Umm, just want to point out that Thor is at L-1. No quick hammers here people!

[Adam-12]

Ok Levi, please understand that its important that you are clear when you talk about hammering. From what I read you are saying, "I don't mind hammering but I am not sure I am going to yet either", correct?

[Adam-12]

As for myself I would like to clear up Angel's position in this game and am not ready to end the day until that happens.

[Adam-12]

Do you realize that your behavior at end of the day yesterday was totally bizarre?

When did you "later" realize that Levi's vote killed Bork?

Vote Count

ArcAngel9 (L-3): Adam-12
Mantisdreamz (L-3): ArcAngel9

Thor665 (L-1): ProHawk, Mantisdreamz, Guile

Guile (L-2): Leviathan93
Leviathan93 (L-3): Thor665

Not Voting: -

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline is Thursday, January 10th, 2013 at 5:30 PM EST

[Adam-12]

Do you realize that your behavior at end of the day yesterday was totally bizarre?

When did you "later" realize that Levi's vote killed Bork?

Vote Count

ArcAngel9 (L-3): Adam-12
Mantisdreamz (L-3): ArcAngel9

Thor665 (L-1): ProHawk, Mantisdreamz, Guile

Guile (L-2): Leviathan93
Leviathan93 (L-3): Thor665

Not Voting: -

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline is Thursday, January 10th, 2013 at 5:30 PM EST

What does it matter, I said i didn't see that part. That's all you need to know. you didn't believe anyways.
and you're now just pushing it too far...

Unvote

I get that you didn't see it but you also said "later" you DID see it, so I'm asking WHEN "later" did you see it because your behavior at that time makes no sense to me.

[Adam-12]

I don't have much to say. I guess I agree with Hawk's plan. I don't see Guille or Levi as a good lynch for today. I am willing to express the intent to hammer when we are ready to end the day.

[Adam-12]

Ok. Will post such today at some point.

[Adam-12]

It revolves around:

1) Mollie's scummy play
2) Your play at the end of D1 where you assumed Mala was the lynch and went MIA
3) Your bad lynch choices today in Levi/Guille

[Adam-12]

How do you know they're both town? Because otherwise they're not bad choices.

I think its pretty clear that Guille would have no reason to be busing where you are saying he would and even though I agree that Levi doesn't get off the hook for hammering, I don't think it makes sense to call him scum for hammering either.

[Adam-12]

Hey Adam, you been busy for the holidays?

Ya sorry I have been away.

I just can't see Levi or Guille as scum.

That leaves Thor, Hawk, Angel.

Thor is basically taking scummy behavior and excusing it on "meta" but I like his take on on the remaining scum and I don't like how Hawk again pressured him at L-1 to be hammered; regarding hammering Thor, ending the day early would not have been good.

For me the remaining scum are in Thor or Hawk. Nothing Angel has said or done makes any sense regardless of alignment and I think its just easier for me to defer to the Shrimp town slip; I have been burned by town slips before and dear goodness, I hope this game doesn't devolve into us having to rely on it to win.

I am willing to lynch Hawk or Thor today.

Vote Thor

Thor is at L-1 so no quick hammers.

[Adam-12]

@ProHawk - martyr away, if you are town that is a terrible move in my opinion. You don't want to hand scum mislynches, and you are not remotely assured enough of me being scum to have that even begin to be a smart move.

@Adam - I laid some pretty solid allegations at aspects of your current case on me. You glossed over those,but got excited that I called ProHawk scummy (even though I seem to recall you having issues with that the other day) and somehow, on the idea of one of your larger suspects suddenly ProHawk is scummy because he wants to be aggressive about lynching Thor...something you are quite clearly being aggressive and all about today. How does that even begin to work as logic?

I think one of you is scum. Either its you for your bad scum list today + Mollie's scummy play D1 & your questionable replace or its Hawk for trying to quick lynch everything in sight.

[Adam-12]

Mantis = conf town

Levi, Guille = strong anti-scum relations with Bork

Hawk = bad wagon interactions (quick hammers), bad interactions with Bork (defending)

Vote Hawk

[Adam-12]

Well on Thor, D1 he called for the Hammer when he was at L-1, He did the same thing later on another D1 wagon (I forget somehow which one it was; it would of been yours or Mala's) and on D2 he did it again on Thor.

I don't think Guille was busing Bork.

[Adam-12]

His position was the least dangerous of the bussing positions (L-2 (Adam) vs L-1 (Guille) vs Hammer (Levi)), but was stuck in his position once the momentum was up on Bork from Guille and Levi's quick hammer before a claim.

You are worried about a claim here? Why do you bring that up now when you have shown total disregard for claiming throughout this entire game?

There have been some very scummy posts that have come out of Levi, and he does not make decisions out of logic, but makes decisions from his gut. If Adam is scum, gut feelings aren't going to cut it in LYLO. You have got to be able to gather all of the information and get down to the truth. Levi

cannot

live to LYLO.

I agree with these sentiments but I don't think Levi is scum.

[Adam-12]

What about waiting for a claim from Mollie-Thor X2? You weren't very concerned about claims then.

[Adam-12]

I agree with these sentiments but I don't think Levi is scum.

you said earlier in the game that pro hawk was basically saying what you were thinking.

his move to lynch mala over bork (the way he went about it)... doesn't really look like scum jumping around to save their partner.

Hawk -- Gave Bork a town read from his entrance into the game & many players noticed it seemed arbitrary. I noticed that Post #528 has a sort of "coaching" sound to it. Post #1502 sums up why Hawk has declared Bork to be town and the major problem with it is that it depends on Hawk having a town alignment; the phenomenon of scum busing right out of the gate is well known however and Bork backed out of it rather conveniently (here and here), I noticed. Hawk opposed Bork's lynch one, two, three, four, five and six times but once Levi said he was ok with hammering, told Levi to hammer Bork; this looks like a "bus" in the face of an obvious scum lynch and it is also a rush to end the day which limits further information. I think Hawk's insistence that Bork is town after his lynch is a clever way to remain consistent in the face of a certain Bork scum flip.

Hawk's interactions with Bork this game are definitely scummy.

[Adam-12]

Adam, you don't think Guille could be scum?

Well when I examined the Bork wagon, Guille's actions didn't look like a bus to me.

[Adam-12]

And probably not have made a huge deal over lynching someone else (Mala), who scum know is town. Because, pushing that hard for a townies lynch, as scum, will only lead to others pointing fingers at you the next day. Scum try to play it safe and want to make sure that attention is not on them.

^^^the above that i just said, makes me wonder though. Because Guille did exactly that with Mollie.

I would of agreed with you and did when Guille went to Levi at the end of D1 but then I saw what he did with Bork and I was like "no way this guy is scum".

[Adam-12]

adam I really don't see what you are talking about how that makes guille town. it could be a strategy, but I don't see how it makes him town in the slightest.

Vote Bork

Out of the two, this is the one I am most willing to Lynch.

At this point both Mala & Bork were at L-2. I don't see a reason for scum to bus here when Mala would of been at L-1.

[Adam-12]

I just don't see it. Why would he out of the blue do that when Mala was an easy L-1 and there was no sign of anyone really wanting to hammer Bork. He could of easily even lurked through the rest of the day since he posts infrequently and left his vote on Levi even.

[Adam-12]

I see your point and Guille is definitely a utr player but you are saying he deliberately bussed his opponent when there was no need to and put him at L-1? I don't see how that makes sense when he already had a vote on you and could of lurked the rest of the day away or at least even voted Mala.

[Adam-12]

For me to lynch Guille I would literally have to be saying that he deliberately put his scum partner at L-1 when he had other, easier options that wouldn't have resulted in the lynching of his partner. I don't see how he needed town cred that bad. He didn't seem desperate at all to me. He had been playing a slow well thought out game and was under no real suspicion.

[Adam-12]

Exactly my point which is why I believe Guille is town.

[Adam-12]

Ok, so while I was doing some research into where Adam disappeared to during his hiatus, I was disappointed to see that he didn't have any other games that I could cross-reference with activity, what I did find, however was intriguing.

The title is: How to Win as Mafia: Calculated Inaction.

Spoiler:

So you've started a game. You say your role is mafia? Well congratulations, you probably just won. But here's a guide to help you win more easily. Always keep in mind, that playing as mafia is a game of waiting. Wait long enough, and the town will kill itself.

1. Do not call the strongest members of the town scum, rather pick on weaker but more neutral figures. If you pick on people that are too easy, you will eventually run out of valid scumreads, and if you only pick on the strongest members of the town, it will likely turn on you. Attack the people that can't defend themselves. Newbies are a good choice.
   
   
   
   Adam's Scum Claims:
   
   Shrimp (#107)
   Code, Guille, Mantis (#173) ((Post #230 removes Mantis from Scum))
   Mollie (#309)
   Bork (#512)
   Mala (#1249)
   
   Adam's main scum pushes D1 were Shrimp, Guille, and Mollie. Bork was a quick push with little scum-hunting, and Mala wasn't really a push. I will let you all decide who were the strongest and weakest contenders, but Shrimp was new, Guille wasn't a heavy poster (neutral) and Mollie was flailing.
   
   
   
   
2. Early on, post a lot, and frequently. Most people will subconsciously treat active players as town. Almost nobody will suspect you for this on its own.
   
   
   

   D1

   - 21 Days
   Posts D1 - 0-461 - 461 Posts
   

   Posts/Day1 - 21 posts/day

   
   

   D2

   - 6 Days
   Posts D2 - 461-485 - 25 Posts
   

   Posts/Day2 - 4 posts/day

   
   
   Because we didn't have nearly the same amount of time D2 as D1, I wanted to make a post/day comparison. I have never seen anyone post as much as Adam. He definately doesn't have the same vigor he did D1.
   
   
   
   
3. Call out lurkers. They are easy to lynch, but don't try to lynch them until later in the game. Their wagon will provide good escape later if you need it. Be sure to make this a long-term campaign. If you notice the flow go against your allies or your scum-calls begin to push the lurkers.
   
   
   
   
   First major post of calling out lurkers is #173, with small jabs at them later on.
   
   
   
   
   
4. Outline rough suspicion of your dumbest partner. Do not push their wagon, just list them as neutral-leaning-scum or something to that effect. Meanwhile, defend your other partner from significant attacks. This will separate your team in the minds of the town.
   
   
   
   Outlined Rough Suspicion and proceeded to pressure others. His vote for Bork Starts in Post #511, and is maintained until his next vote for Mollie in #798. His pressuring of Bork stops in Post #552, he didn't push the wagon, just let the vote sit.
   
   He didn't have another partner, so it doesn't apply.
   
   
   
   
5. Defend the strongest players of the town. Pick one in particular to defend excessively. If you die, this will tie you to them and allow your team to lynch them quickly. As a note, generally, if you build a meta for defending people you will do well in all your games.
   
   
   
   Adam made more than one post defending me, I would even say excessively. I am sure you remember, but if you don't I would be happy to quote them for you.
   
   
   
   
6. For lynch on the first day, push the second or third most popular lynch. Do not try to make your wagon fail, but hope that it does. After that, continue to push reads that are less likely to be lynched. If one of your reads becomes a major lynch though, lynch them. Do not back down.
   
   
   
   Adam's vote on Bork strikes me as a strong indicator of this play. Bork was the second most popular lynch.
   
   
   
   
7. If you notice someone acting scummy, and no one else has yet picked up on it, take the opportunity. If you lynch an unexpected person the next day reverts to earlier lynch prospects much of the time. Essentially the town loses a day.
   
   
   
   Adam's push on Angel, despite saying that he believed Shrimps town-slip fits nicely into this category.
   
   
   
   
8. Taper off your posting as you go. Do not suddenly disappear, just gradually reduce your rate of posting. Try to keep large but infrequent posts at first, but later shorter posts will do. You want to appear like you are losing interest in the game. You also want to have an excuse for dodging the nightkills. Living too long being too town will be problematic.
   
   
   
   Notice the posting frequency at the start of the game to now.
   
   
   
   
9. Attack players that do not know how to defend themselves properly. Start with a case that is factual, but weak. When the player overreacts and digs themselves deeper and deeper, you will have a good wagon to sit on. If it sees lynch, you have lynched someone that everyone agrees deserved it, and if it doesn't you have a plausible distraction from the main lynches.
   
   
   
   Mollie wasn't on Adam's push-agenda until he saw how much she was able to dig herself deeper and deeper.
   
   
   
   
10. Don't underestimate the power of subtle praise. "That's a great point" and "I didn't notice that" or even "I'm sheeping X, who is obv-town" helps building false confidence in townies. This will make the townie think you are town, and if they turn out to be wrong they get the blame and their confidence is shaken. It is generally good to leave the responsibility for the town's lynches on the town.
    
    
    
    Adam was full of praise for me D1. My Favorite - Lifetime Subscription
    
    
    
    
11. The town tends to believe that it ought to win. They are wrong, but you can take advantage of this. If someone has been on many of the major wagons, you have just found a free lynch target. Similarly, if there is someone that seems to be causing the town not to succeed, they are a good target. Generally, the mafia should be encouraging the idea that the town is being conned by their leaders.
    
    
    Post #1356 - "I think we are being played"
    

Notes are in green, I edited out the topics that weren't relevant to Adam's play. Feel free to read the whole post if you wish.

As I said before, I have it on good authority that he as used this post as research. The evidence in this game is more than coincidence that he is putting the advice to use. So did he use this research as scum or to find scum? The fact that he has incorporated 11 of the suggestions into his play here leads me to believe that he used it as scum in order to play an amazing scum-game.

This is interesting, but I am worried. I'll let Adam respond first, before I comment on this.

I think Hawk put alot of work into this but the idea that somehow as scum I need to study posts so I can properly form a strategy is just really out there. It is true that I deliberately laid back at the end of the day; I said who my lynch candidates where and decided to watch behavior.

[Adam-12]

1) I didn't notice any soft claim
2) She wouldn't answer my question regarding her bizarre play at the end of D1

[Adam-12]

Sorry I am sick with a fever.

I feel I am being set up here with all of that big deal about that thread and I am certain that Hawk must be scum, again, because I don't think Levi or Guille are, as neither of them bused Bork.

I don't have much else to say other than Hawk needs to be the lynch today and the game should end at that point.

If not, I believe LYLO will be Hawk, Levi, Guille. We have to be certain of what we are doing today because there is no doubt in my mind that Hawk will try to manipulate a win in LYLO as he is doing here today.

I have noticed his switch from "Vote me tomorrow as long as we vote Thor today" (yesterday) to "Vote Adam today" with this massive ott post about some other thread on this site.

I think we need to lynch Hawk and the game will end.

[Adam-12]

There has been nothing wrong with my play and therefore nothing to defend.

Also, you clearly stated to lynch you tomorrow if we just lynch Thor today, hence your manipulation. Also your actions around every wagon you have been on have been to rush for the hammer.

Tomorrow everyone should be aware of this and lynch Hawk in LYLO. It will be Guille, Levi, Hawk. We need to be totally clear on this before we end the day.

Personally, I think we should end the day and the game and lynch Hawk today.

[Adam-12]

At first I thought the reason you wanted to end the day so quickly with Mollie's wagon was out of genuine frustration but I think Mantis was right in pointing out how it looked like scum frustration over losing a lynch and then end of the day. You did it again on D2 as well and used the "lynch me tomorrow" ploy which we hear nothing of now.

As far as what we need to be sure of as a town is that Guille is 100% not scum & Levi is 100% not scum and that they both will vote for Hawk in LYLO. As long as that happens we will win.

[Adam-12]

Look now is not the time to be doubting our reads. If we go into LYLO with doubts about what we are doing we will lose because Hawk will engineer a win through that doubt.

[Adam-12]

Thor
ProHawk
Angel

This is the order in which I believe we should lynch

I know I am not scum, and would rather see Thor

go first

.

You used this as a ploy to live through D2 and took it completely back on D3.

[Adam-12]

Your subsequent posts also follow this same theme which started with this post.

[Adam-12]

And this is my problem with Hawk living to LYLO. He will use the same manipulation to engineer a town win.

[Adam-12]

EBWOP: Scum win of course.

[Adam-12]

Adam:

At first I thought the reason you wanted to end the day so quickly with Mollie's wagon was out of genuine frustration but I think Mantis was right in pointing out how it looked like scum frustration over losing a lynch and then end of the day. You did it again on D2 as well and used the "lynch me tomorrow" ploy which we hear nothing of now.

As far as what we need to be sure of as a town is that Guille is 100% not scum & Levi is 100% not scum and that they both will vote for Hawk in LYLO. As long as that happens we will win.

what makes you say that Levi is 100% not scum?

Well I think Hawk is scum and in reading Levi's voting post of Bork, I do not think he was busing at all.

[Adam-12]

But if we think Levi is scum we need to air that out but I think I can show a pretty clear case for him being town.

Thanks for your concern btw, the fever has passed and feeling a little bit better.

[Adam-12]

No, I said, this is the order we need to lynch: Thor, ProHawk, Angel.

That was based on the theory that sum did not bus. Saying what I thought the order was and saying lynch me tomorrow are completely different things. Odds are now with two of the three people who didn't bus Bork dead that scum did in-fact bus. There is absolutely no question in my mind because I know my alignment, but the rest of you need to determine. Did scum bus D1 or not?

I am willing to be the lynch today if ya'll lynch Thor during the next game day.

That post is what Adam is trying to throw against me, but what I said was the opposite. Lynch me yesterday and lynch Thor today.

Right which is simply a reversal of that list. So you're trying to say now it wasn't??

[Adam-12]

It was that post that brought me to vote Thor over you yesterday but the problem is now you are the only person left in that list which means you have to be scum. There isn't much more I have to say about it only that if we don't lynch Hawk today, we need to be very sure that Guille is 100% not scum & Levi is 100% not scum so that we are prepared for them to vote Hawk in LYLO because he won't go easy as is evidenced from his transition from D2-D3.

[Adam-12]

Ya for me to make a case on Levi being town I would need to go through his entire ISO basically pointing out his early game play and how only experienced scum could play like that. Then the way he voted Bork to me looked so townie, I just can't even believe its a bus.

When you look at Levi, you have to look beyond the surface. From him to be scum and deliberately playing that way would require more skill than would make sense.

[Adam-12]

So Adam, you are 100% sure that scum didn't bus D1?

I think it is clear you did not bus but were confident that your Mala lynch was going through and chose to defend Bork instead.

[Adam-12]

No I mean town. Levi is town in my eyes.

[Adam-12]

My begging looked like a Mala lynch was going through to you?

I think you were more than confident it was going through until Levi said he was going to hammer, yes.

[Adam-12]

Well Mantis, you are the only confirmed town in the game and how LYLO happens is up to you. I just think that if we lynch Hawk there won't be a LYLO but again, if Hawk lives to LYLO, what should Guille, Levi and himself do?

[Adam-12]

Well he didn't force Levi to vote him because Levi had

already

declared that he would be voting Bork; Hawk just saw that it was inevitable at that point.

I will do a thorough read up on Levi and post my thoughts.

[Adam-12]

@Mantis: Ok, then if Hawk is not scum and we end up in LYLO with Hawk, Levi & Guille, what should the town do? That's what I am asking you because you need to be very clear on it.

Your choice of viewing Hawk's behavior and my own are one side of a coin that can easily be flipped.

But based on what you have been saying, let's assume that in LYLO it will either be Levi or Guille as scum -- see I totally disagree. I think you have glossed over a clear scum profile from Hawk. It really was your point about his frustration over the Mollie wagon that got me thinking about that and then he repeated it in D2.

You see Hawk that defended a town read and is calmly questioning and voting to catch scum, I see a Hawk who was frustrated over losing the Mollie wagon & was confident that his Mala lynch would go through and he would end the day. I further see his manipulation during D2 to survive it and engineer a Thor lynch and his denial of such manipulation (how is that calm?) further shows he is scum.

You realize this will be the end of the game if Hawk is scum because in LYLO he will manipulate a win right?

[Adam-12]

Btw, the only thing I could take away from Levi's 2nd scum game was the fact he hasn't appeared to have learned how to play since that game and actually he played much better that game than this one!

In other words, this game he sounds even more clueless than in his very first game.

Now for why he is town from this game...

[Adam-12]

Adam, your appeal to fear of my "manipulation" is pretty scummy, just saying...

Really? You are the one that denied you made the claim you should be lynched after Thor right? You are still denying it??

[Adam-12]

Look, I have been very clear about the situation in LYLO and yes I do care because this game rides on what happens today.

[Adam-12]

Well the way Mantis is talking, Hawk is 100% town and if we go into LYLO like that we cannot win with Hawk as scum.

[Adam-12]

@Levi: Why would Mantis live to LYLO?

[Adam-12]

So we're supposed to read that post that has you as second (convenient) in the lynch order with you saying "This is the order we should lynch" and are supposed to somehow be mind readers and know that you really didn't mean what you said?

I can't even see how you can deny this.

[Adam-12]

Btw, in Levi's 2nd scum game he was faced with his scum buddy as a lynch choice and he chose the townie -- so yes once again Levi did not bus here.

[Adam-12]

So we're supposed to read that post that has you as second (convenient) in the lynch order with you saying "This is the order we should lynch" and are supposed to somehow be mind readers and know that you really didn't mean what you said?

I can't even see how you can deny this.

Because that is exactly how I read it which is what brought me to vote for Thor over you because as far as I was concerned your behavior regarding Bork was scummier than Thor's.

[Adam-12]

Ok actually, I just realized why Mantis could make it to LYLO. If scum were certain that she would not vote for them then they could let her live. The two players would cross-vote and she would pick the townie.

[Adam-12]

Why are you still using the claim argument here when that's the last thing you ever waited for and you told Levi to hammer! Why is that argument so bad?

[Adam-12]

Its clear from Levi's scum game that under pressure he chose the townie wagon over the scum wagon; so why would he bus here?

[Adam-12]

Here is what bugs me about Guille:

I don't like how he brought up the whole Angel-night-kill thing. This makes me think he is scum trying to get everyone to think that he had no clue. It worked with Mantis. Other problem, he has been pretty much chilling out this whole game except for this game day. Now he is some kind of crusader who wants to make sure we maximize before LYLO. It smells like he is trying to make sure he looks super town going into tomorrow.

Can you help me with that, my reading comprehension has not been the best over the last two days...

[Adam-12]

Adam, you're right. Sacrificing your partner is something that was absent in every-one of the games except for one where it was written into the rules. So if he did it, I am not sure where he got it from.

But I know he is smarter than he is leading us to believe

.

This is the only conclusion I can draw.

[Adam-12]

Well on Guille, again it comes back to his vote for Bork... I looked at it in order to condemn him but it struck me as a town move. I could expound on what I believe his motivations were but I suppose he should do that for himself.

[Adam-12]

Ok, I seriously don't even know what you are referring to -- its as if that post never even took place in my mind. Let me go look at it.

[Adam-12]

I'm here. Patience.

Man, I totally thought Thor was scum. And with Angel dead that completely scratches my plans. Here is the problem. I originally had a Lynch on Thor, Levi and Angel. By reason I should lynch Levi. But there is a reason I voted for Thor over Levi, and its primarily because of his hammer on Bork.

I need to review lots of things for this game though. This game has gotten a ton more complicated.

My first problem is "Why did Angel die?" Did she bread crumbed her power somewhere? Or was her kill just a way to avoid the unknown watcher.

@Mantis

did you track Angel at some point and realized she was the tracker?

So, I'm going to have to get into WIFOM territory now, My head is going to explode so it's a good thing I asked for vacation next week. Let me post this so that what I just said sinks in, while I redact the next post.

Ok, I'm town. (Whether you believe it or not) but I have to make that clear so that the following makes sense. When I get in this mode of typing I tend to ramble a lot and start typing anything that comes to my mind. Don't be surprised if my ideas change as I type, it's just my ideas evolving. This is my written thought process. I might need medical attention afterwards.

This sentence I write after I have written the following. It's just a heads up that the following led me to loops. My best conclusion is on the last two paragraphs, so, if you don't want to read this rambling post, at the very least read the last two paragraphs. And the following paragraphs two, they are golden. Also, I just read Prohawk's post, which dismantles what I was writing here.

We've got Mantis, Adam, Prohawk and Levi. One of them is scum. Mantis is town. Since the watcher is dead. Mantis is the best kill for tonight. So, the surviving party will consist of whoever we don't lynch of Adam, Prohawk, Guille and Levi.

I'm going to have to check yesterday's work but I need to find out who thought Angel was town. I personally thought that Scum was one of Thor, Levi and Angel. Prohawk thought it was one of Thor, Angel and himself. Correct me if I'm wrong but Adam had Hawk, Thor and Angel in his Lynch list. Levi was gunning at Guille, thor and potentially Hawk, although he was very clear that I was his go to guy, and thor was his option if I am town. This is consistent to his play today. Mantis has a Thor, Prohawk and angel. Since Thor was lynched and Angel died, i am going to ignore their scum reads for the time being, as this analysis is to see what scum thought to make his kill.

(Oh man, Adams ISO is divided in 3 pages, I've never seen that)

The big question is Angel dying. There are two possibilities given that She was in most everyone's hit list. 1) She hinted at her being the watcher, or she bread-crumbed it in some way. If she did, then she was the only option to lynch, and hope for the best. 2) She was a strategic kill. Strategic in that the watcher was not likely to watch her and other which I will go into detail next. #) It's possible that she was killed because her scum reads were quite limited. Basically just saying that Mantis was scum and then going for Thor at the end. This I take into consideration as a strategic kill. In the end there was nothing random of he kill. So I will use that as evidence. I need to ISO her for (1) but I doubt that she did. I will assume (2) and go from there.

Killing angel was a safe kill. Giving that the killer went after Mala Night 1, Mala being a safe kill. Then the motivation for killing Angel would be to stay away from the watcher. Things are improved if the killer is Adam or Hawk. Another option was killing Levi (If he is town). Angel was more in the sight of everyone than Levi. So this is confusing.

If Levi is scum. His best chance of survival was to Lynch one of Mantis, Guille, Hawk or Adam. There was a 1/4 probability of getting caught by the watcher. with a higher chance on Mantis. There was a very small chance that the watcher was targeting Angel. So killing her was a safe bet. Angel was likely a better target to lynch day 3 than himself, so risking the watcher seems like a better move. This assumes that Levi had no knowledge of Angel being the watcher. The Kill is not entirely compatible with Levi being scum. Plausible though.

If Adam is scum. Had he targeted Mantis, Guille or Hawk. His chances of being caught by the watcher were about the same as Levi's. However, Killing Levi or angel was a more strategic kill for him since they are likely not being watched. But why Angel and not Levi? He considered Levi town. He is going after Prohawk now, so I am assuming that if he is scum he expected a final clash between Levi, Him and Mantis/Hawk/me (whoever didn't claim watcher). He'd be stuck in a town-read Lylo. If I did not claim watcher and survived the day, Levi would vote for me for his Win. Had he gone for Levi, then it be Mantis/Angel/Prohawk/me and him. This seems like a better decision because, had Levi not been the watcher (from his POV not knowing), then the watcher would likely claim if it was Hawk or Angel, maybe Guille. The watcher claiming today, was a high probability. Since mantis thought that Adam was town and I was a potential scum, Mantis would have been more likely to vote for Angel/Hawk/guille than she was to vote for Adam. I notice that both situations count for him to give the vote to either Levi or Mantis. In the first scenario, if Hawk was the watcher, then the lynch would auto go to Levi, which will leave Mantis, Adam, and Me to LyLo. hrmmm. I got stuck in a loop. Ok, relax. Think like Adam:

Two options Kill Levi, or Angel. Whose the best option. everyone is opting to Lynch Angel. I am opting to Lynch Angel. If I kill Levi and Angel is the watcher, then I have to go to Prohawk because I can't vote for Guille. Samething otherwise if I kill Angel and Levi claims watcher. Regardless of who I kill, if I kill one of them and the watcher is hawk or Guille, they would likely not claim and I'd have to lynch the other option. I'm in a good position if the watcher is one of Levi and angel, and I end up killing the other.

This is compatible with last nights kill.

If Prohawk is scum. Remarkably, the thought process is pretty much the same as Adam's. It is also an indication that since they are both gunning for each other that they are attempting to keep Levi Alive. Had only one gone after the other, it would have been an indication that he was scum. But that didn't happen. Adam went first, but Hawk came with a definitive case on Adam, meaning that he had it planned ahead of time. Both had me and Levi as scum. And given that Levi will likely vote for me on LyLo, and they assumed that I would vote for Levi on LyLo. their best and only play is to Lynch Adam/Hawk depending on who is scum. It's also natural for the other to do the same as town. In the end it's a risky maneuver, because either one could get lynched. The odd one here is Levi. He knew that He was only at risk from me in this game. He could have killed me and risk getting caught by the Watcher. However, if Levi thought that I might reconsider if adam and Hawk go at eachother's throats, then maybe he could get Me Lynched. However, If he failed getting Guille Lynched, and one of hawk and Adam is lynched, then It's game over for him as he is likely the top lynch that day. So, his best bet was to Kill Guille at night rather than Angel and risk getting caught since success would mean an easier victory. No, He had no knowledge of Angel being the watcher, so Killing me would only be beneficial if angel was not the watcher and I was the watcher. If either Adam or Hawk is the watcher, then Killing Guille would be bad. 50% chance. It's also bad if Angel is the watcher and Levi kills Guille. So in the end, the best choice for Levi to Kill is Angel and hope for the best. Killing Adam and Hawk is out of the question since Guille will try convince the other to vote for Levi or angel (Because he is awesome).

Let me go around another route. Psychologically speaking. If scum did not know that Angel was the Watcher, then the kill was done to be safe from the watcher. Given that Mala was the target on night 1, then this is reaffirming that case, since Mala was the safest place to avoid a watcher. If the person is this careful, and this worried about the watcher, then busing Bork was not an intended outcome. The most compatible with this is Hawk. However, he pushed Levi to hammer Bork, which is counter intuitive. Had Prohawk and bork been both scum buddies. Then, I don't think Hawk would willingly pressure levi to Hammer. Else, he'd hammer himself and appear much better in the outset. Yeah, I think I can assume Prohawk is town.

Ok, I think I'm going to stop the ramblings. At the very least I just have to find one player out of Hawk, Adam and Levi to be town. The above was my entire thought process to get to the conclusion that I am going to pick Hawk as my top Town. Which means that I vow never to vote for him for the duration of this game. Adam is second due to him bringing up Bork's wagon for contention. I will need to confirm how that wagon appeared, but it seems that it was brought up by Mala and Mantis sheeped her. Levi is the only last option left really, and although he did hammer Bork. He was pressured to do so.

No Guille, she bread-loafed. She basically soft-claimed to Mantis.

Man, I totally wrote all that for nothing. Can you point out the soft claiming, I must have missed it. And can you tell me when did you figure it out?

My ramblings only get's me to one conclusion that prohawk is probably town. Not as certain as I was when I finished the post, because of 1919 and because Prohawk figured it out.

There is no way Mantis survives, as she is confirmed town

I actually expected her to survive. She was the prime target for the watcher. I wouldn't expect Angel to have watched her both nights.

Ok so here are the posts in one neat place so I can read them.

[Adam-12]

Man, I totally thought Thor was scum. And with Angel dead that completely scratches my plans.

Bemoaning both the mislynch & the NK.

@Mantis

did you track Angel at some point and realized she was the tracker?

I don't understand the relevance of this question; why ask it for no purpose?

The big question is Angel dying. There are two possibilities given that She was in most everyone's hit list. 1) She hinted at her being the watcher, or she bread-crumbed it in some way. If she did, then she was the only option to lynch, and hope for the best. 2) She was a strategic kill. Strategic in that the watcher was not likely to watch her and other which I will go into detail next. #) It's possible that she was killed because her scum reads were quite limited. Basically just saying that Mantis was scum and then going for Thor at the end. This I take into consideration as a strategic kill. In the end there was nothing random of he kill. So I will use that as evidence. I need to ISO her for (1) but I doubt that she did. I will assume (2) and go from there.

Killing angel was a safe kill. Giving that the killer went after Mala Night 1,

Mala being a safe kill

. Then the motivation for killing Angel would be to stay away from the watcher.

Things are improved if the killer is Adam or Hawk

. Another option was killing Levi (If he is town). Angel was more in the sight of everyone than Levi. So this is confusing.

This entire line of thinking is bizarre; totally focused on the NK. I don't understand the underlined; where is he getting this idea? The bolded is drawing a conclusion based on the NK which is scummy but what is missing is cases on either you or myself based on this.

No Guille, she bread-loafed. She basically soft-claimed to Mantis.

Man, I totally wrote all that for nothing. Can you point out the soft claiming, I must have missed it. And can you tell me when did you figure it out?

Ok so here you are saying it sounds manufactured?

One thing is that the NK does not necessarily even depend on whether the scum knew her role or not; that's why NK speculation is bad because it makes blind assumptions.

There is no way Mantis survives, as she is confirmed town

I actually expected her to survive. She was the prime target for the watcher. I wouldn't expect Angel to have watched her both nights.

This post clearly indicates that he had no idea she was the Tracker; his mindset is deeply imbued with the NK reasoning being to avoid being watched.

---

The first two quotes look like posturing and overall he seems obsessed with the NK.

What are your thoughts about these posts again?

[Adam-12]

Adam, what do you think about this?

Had Prohawk and bork been both scum buddies. Then, I don't think Hawk would willingly pressure levi to Hammer. Else, he'd hammer himself and appear much better in the outset. Yeah, I think I can assume Prohawk is town.

I think he was mistaken -- Levi had already said he was going to hammer and you pressuring him would be a subtle bus that would create the kind of mis-perception that he has stated here.

[Adam-12]

I think the bemoaning the lynch/NK with the NK suspicion could be posturing. I have to counter-weigh that with his vote for Bork which I didn't see as a bus at all.

As far as Angel, she was scummy all over the thread. So much that it made me seriously wonder about that town slip of Shrimp's.

The only thing I am certain of this game is that I have been consistently wrong on who the second scum is but based on actions of Levi & Guille in relation to Bork, I don't see how they can be scum.

[Adam-12]

@Mantis: Ok, then if Hawk is not scum and we end up in LYLO with Hawk, Levi & Guille, what should the town do? That's what I am asking you because you need to be very clear on it.

Your choice of viewing Hawk's behavior and my own are one side of a coin that can easily be flipped.

But based on what you have been saying, let's assume that in LYLO it will either be Levi or Guille as scum -- see I totally disagree. I think you have glossed over a clear scum profile from Hawk. It really was your point about his frustration over the Mollie wagon that got me thinking about that and then he repeated it in D2.

You see Hawk that defended a town read and is calmly questioning and voting to catch scum, I see a Hawk who was frustrated over losing the Mollie wagon & was confident that his Mala lynch would go through and he would end the day. I further see his manipulation during D2 to survive it and engineer a Thor lynch and his denial of such manipulation (how is that calm?) further shows he is scum.

You realize this will be the end of the game if Hawk is scum because in LYLO he will manipulate a win right?

but you were also very adamant on seeing the mollie wagon through.

Yes but that's not my point nor was it yours. Do you remember how exasperated he was and how he called for the hammer?

[Adam-12]

and ok then. but i am saying to you what if you are wrong? what is your back up plan and how will you deal with lynch or lose? if this is not necessary and it is adam then YAY!! but if he is town what then?

^^^ +town

[Adam-12]

this being said. WE NEED EVERYONES BACK UP PLANS STATED! and if they lie and change it then we know who the true scum is.

Guille, Mantis, and Adam, what do you think about the above statement?

Meh, we all need to be aware of what we are doing regardless of who we lynch today but ya, locking people in to a plan and lynching them if they change sounds pretty dicey. If each of us was certain what we were going to do tomorrow and could state such it might work but there is a problem because the scum could choose to leave Mantis alive and also by locking ourselves into a plan the scum could choose the best wagon to be on for today's lynch.

Since Mantis it is most likely that Mantis will not be around tomorrow, it is most important for her to be clear on what tomorrow will look like.

Of course, I think lynching Hawk will end the game.

[Adam-12]

LOL!

[Adam-12]

In case I forget:

@Mod: Can you please prod Guille?

[Adam-12]

Adam, how do you know that neither guille or levi bused bork? is just sounds odd because it's definitely not a certainty.

Sorry I am sick with a fever.

I feel I am being set up here with all of that big deal about that thread and I am certain that Hawk must be scum, again, because I don't think Levi or Guille are, as neither of them bused Bork.

I'm saying that I specifically looked at both of their actions specifically to find scummy behavior regarding Bork and in both cases I found that busing just seemed incorrect. I was burned one game on a player that bused BOTH of his scum buddies all game (he even called for the day vig of one of them) which completely fooled me but in this case, I don't think either of them bused, no.

Vote Count

ProHawk (L-2): Adam-12
Adam-12 (L-2): ProHawk

Not Voting: - Mantisdreamz, Guile, Leviathan93

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day Three has begun. Deadline is Thursday, Jan 17th (I think?) at 3:00 PM EST

[Adam-12]

At first I thought the reason you wanted to end the day so quickly with Mollie's wagon was out of genuine frustration but I think Mantis was right in pointing out how it looked like scum frustration over losing a lynch and then end of the day. You did it again on D2 as well and used the "lynch me tomorrow" ploy which we hear nothing of now.

As far as what we need to be sure of as a town is that Guille is 100% not scum & Levi is 100% not scum and that they both will vote for Hawk in LYLO. As long as that happens we will win.

..i'm just thinking right now. levi hammered bork, right. Which is why you have him as 100% not scum? but, prohawk told him to hammer. it'd look bad for levi (if he was to scum) if he refused to, and then bork still flipped, either that day or another day.

No, no, no. See, everybody is reading that incorrectly. This is what happened:

1) Levi came out of the blue and said, "I am going to hammer Bork"
2) THEN Hawk said, "Hammer Bork"

I have him as plus town for coming out for the hammer and especially when there was no obvious additional pressure on Bork and Levi did NOT bus in his relevant completed scum game, but voted the townie instead.

[Adam-12]

wait a sec.... you have been wanting to lynch Thor all game.

It was that post that brought me to vote Thor over you yesterday

but the problem is now you are the only person left in that list which means you have to be scum. There isn't much more I have to say about it only that if we don't lynch Hawk today, we need to be very sure that Guille is 100% not scum & Levi is 100% not scum so that we are prepared for them to vote Hawk in LYLO because he won't go easy as is evidenced from his transition from D2-D3.

on a side note - sorry for all the random posts. it's just easier to respond as i read

I like random posts, they are easy to do, easy to read and easy to respond to.

Yes, but once I saw Hawk's behavior regarding Thor, he rose above Thor on my scum list and only his inclusion of himself on the lynch list changed that.

[Adam-12]

Well Mantis, you are the only confirmed town in the game and how LYLO happens is up to you. I just think that if we lynch Hawk there won't be a LYLO but again, if Hawk lives to LYLO, what should Guille, Levi and himself do?

i'm not sure. vote who they most believe is scum. i don't think hawk is scum though, adam. if you

are

town, can you look beyond him for a moment?

Well yes, I would be looking for the person that most likely bused between the two of them. I would really have to go deep and do an exhaustive review of each of their ISO's to make a final decision.

[Adam-12]

also why would it have made me look scummy to refuse to hammer bork? i normally would have refused because i don't like being pressured to make my own decisions based on what other people tell me. I didn't refuse this time only because at least mala wasn't being the one lynched. i had no idea that bork was scum. honestly thought otherwise since I already pegged him as a lurker in the beginning and thought that he couldn't be scum because of it.

well what i mean is that if you were scum with bork, someone telling you to hammer your buddy is going to make you feel (at least i imagine) - kind of paranoid. like, 'oh shit, if i don't actual hammer now, it's going to come back to bite me in the ass. and it will be obvious that i'm his partner' .... or something like that.

Would Levi actually think this? In his previous scum game he sure didn't and he won.

[Adam-12]

(and levi if you are town, bear with me hear, i'm just thinking out loud)


But- throughout the game, Levi has very often brought up the fact that he claimed town early, and that he's town. I'm beginning to get a bit paranoid that he is doing this to try to overcompensate in convincing us.

This of course has always been possible. I noticed this very early on and even posted about it. My thoughts have been that it would be inappropriate play for his skill level?

[Adam-12]

Well the way Mantis is talking, Hawk is 100% town and if we go into LYLO like that we cannot win with Hawk as scum.

but if i don't believe he's scum, it's difficult for me to digest that he should be lynched, just because you don't want him in lylo.

I can understand this.

[Adam-12]

It seems that I had used the wrong calendar to set my VLA, I am VLA till the 7th not the 10th. Still VLA so, just a quicky note. I am taking a stance on hawk being town. I consider Adam more town than Levi, so I would prefer a lynch Levi.

wow...that is so scummy to me. oh well. LETS LYNCH ME THEN SO WE CAN FINALLY FIND OUT THE TRUTH!

Side Note: This is good Levi, you are learning this game. Keep at it!

[Adam-12]

good. fine. consider what you want. =P you are the only one seeming actual town to me at the moment because of it. =P but I would like you to take that farther because I actually really like the thinking. my thinking is this. the reason I want peoples plans out is because it would be helpful to go back too.

if hawk is scum this would be his best bet would DEFINITELY be to kill adam today. that way mantis would be killed during the night and left with me, hawk, and guille. they both would vote me, because guille sees hawk as town and therefore hawk wins. Definitely easy win for him.

If adam is scum then his best vote would be to kill hawk or me. If he killed hawk if would be mantis dead during the night. and me, adam, and guille alive. guille would pick me, because he seems me more scummy then adam is, therefore he would lynch me and adam would win. if adam lynched me instead of hawk today, then mantis would die and it would be adam hawk, and guille left. which guille would kill adam because he believes him more scummy then hawk and adam would lose. and town win. therefore he would rather kill hawk today then kill me.

if guille is scum then if his vote was to kill me today, it would leave adam and hawk and guille to tomorrow because mantis would die during the night. adam and hawk would vote each other because they don't think guille is scum and guille would choose either one to hammer and have an easy win. if guille wants adam dead it would be hawk, me, and guille and they would both kill me and guille would win. if hawk was dead then it would be me, adam, and guille and that would be the only possibility that could save town as adam might vote guille and i might vote guille to win. but if he votes me and adam votes me then im lynched and guille wins.

my analysis shows that if guille is scum he will most likely win.

Wow. Awesome post! *claps*

This sort of thinking shows you are gaining strength as a player. I agree with your analysis.

[Adam-12]

At first I thought the reason you wanted to end the day so quickly with Mollie's wagon was out of genuine frustration but I think Mantis was right in pointing out how it looked like scum frustration over losing a lynch and then end of the day. You did it again on D2 as well and used the "lynch me tomorrow" ploy which we hear nothing of now.

As far as what we need to be sure of as a town is that Guille is 100% not scum & Levi is 100% not scum and that they both will vote for Hawk in LYLO. As long as that happens we will win.

..i'm just thinking right now. levi hammered bork, right. Which is why you have him as 100% not scum? but, prohawk told him to hammer. it'd look bad for levi (if he was to scum) if he refused to, and then bork still flipped, either that day or another day.

No, no, no. See, everybody is reading that incorrectly. This is what happened:

1) Levi came out of the blue and said, "I am going to hammer Bork"
2) THEN Hawk said, "Hammer Bork"

I have him as plus town for coming out for the hammer and especially when there was no obvious additional pressure on Bork and Levi did NOT bus in his relevant completed scum game, but voted the townie instead.

hmm. It still doesn't make sense, even with Levi giving pre warning, why Hawk wouldn't take the credit himself.

also - re the last paragraph, people change up their games all the time. i definitely don't always bus as scum, sometimes i don't, and other times i will.

Actually it would look more scummy if Hawk suddenly hammers Bork; it ACTUALLY looks better that he told LEVI to hammer Bork. I see it as a veiled bus in the face of an inevitable hammer.

[Adam-12]

Levi's Scum Game

[Adam-12]

Well Mantis, you are the only confirmed town in the game and how LYLO happens is up to you. I just think that if we lynch Hawk there won't be a LYLO but again, if Hawk lives to LYLO, what should Guille, Levi and himself do?

i'm not sure. vote who they most believe is scum. i don't think hawk is scum though, adam. if you

are

town, can you look beyond him for a moment?

Well yes, I would be looking for the person that most likely bused between the two of them. I would really have to go deep and do an exhaustive review of each of their ISO's to make a final decision.

that's fair enough.

i just really can't see Prohawk as scum drawing that much attention to himself JUST for a mala lynch. when she flipped town, everyone was going to be turning their attention to him. also, he sounded like he genuinely thought she was scum.

Adam, you also had him as town the whole game. It's just the one situation around bork's lynch that has him as scum, for you. and i guess because you said there was frustration around the Thor lynch and wanting to hammer Thor. You were looking for a Thor lynch as well.


(I'm going to look like a fool if he actually is scum.... )

Yes, I had him as town all of D1 until we had a scum flip.

I personally think that good scum know if they have a "genuine" case or not and pushing it to them is not a problem as long as there is proper evidence to back up their case; only weak scum fail to push cases out of fear for what will happen tomorrow.

[Adam-12]

Actually it would look more scummy if Hawk suddenly hammers Bork; it ACTUALLY looks better that he told LEVI to hammer Bork. I see it as a veiled bus in the face of an inevitable hammer.

maybe. but he could have played it off by eventually voting bork after an hour or two... appearing to look frustrated or something about having a no lynch. I just don't see him telling levi to hammer as looking particularly more scummy.

He didn't tell him to hammer, he told him to

hurry up then

and hammer since Levi was going to do it anyway. There was no way Hawk could of voted Bork there, IMPOSSIBLE.

Vote Count

ProHawk (L-2): Adam-12
Adam-12 (L-2): ProHawk

Not Voting: - Mantisdreamz, Guile, Leviathan93

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day Three has begun. Deadline is Thursday, Jan 17th (I think?) at 3:00 PM EST

[Adam-12]

Don't worry mantis, you won't look like a fool on my account.

that's partially reassuring.

Prohawk- with guille, i like that he said that he was taking a stance on voting you today... that is, he refuses to.

If he was scum, he's really narrowing down his options. it looks like a town thing.

Well, if we have two people that refuse to vote Hawk, there is no way we can get a Hawk lynch today. If we agree that is true, then we must decide between Guille and Levi.

One thing that I notice right off (if Hawk is town) is that Guille NOT wanting to vote Hawk is potentially suicidal if Guille is scum and I don't see how wanting to vote Levi is helping his scum game either. This would lead me to believe that Guille is town (if Hawk is town).

Levi seems willing to lynch anyone,

literally

. This would more fit a scum profile.

EBWOP: See we DO think alike! LOL.

I think Hawk is scum though.

[Adam-12]

LOL. Sorry ur right.

[Adam-12]

The way you feel right now is awesome. You have a clear view of the game and know what you are doing.

[Adam-12]

You realize your goading of Levi's ego is quite scummy when you guys get into LYLO together?

Meh, these are comments that don't relate to this game; I'm kind of cheering him on as he gains skill. I suppose I should stop.

[Adam-12]

really? my mind is all more frustrated at the moment then thinking I have it down. i just feel it should be so much easier when it gets to 3 of five since i have never been in this situation before.

and lol. its not goading my ego at all. =P i really dont see how its true.

I meant the frustration and the fruit of that frustration which is clear knowledge of the game state which you demonstrated by your analysis post. But shhhh, Hawk wants us to be quiet.

[Adam-12]

So Hawk, who is more scummy Levi or Guille??

[Adam-12]

Yes, but I disagreed with you on that because I recognized Mala's scum tell as a true one.

[Adam-12]

mafia talk time? they can do that? I thought you could only do that during a night thing. and go where mollie? hasn't the game just started? as for being on the sight, I'm always on the sight or at least I always have the sight on tab on my computer even if i'm sleeping. that way its easy access to follow my games and see who post what and I can be updated faster and respond quicker.

[Adam-12]

Ok, you thought that Levi's claim that Mala's intentions were town, dubious because you saw Mala's case as a poor one. I liked Mala's case and saw it as good which means when I see Levi saying the same thing, it doesn't raise any red flags for me; he is coming to the same conclusions I did about Mala's case and intentions.

[Adam-12]

Yes but that would be a pretty bold and risky move for scum don't you think? The pressure not to be the "lynch of the day" during RVS is pretty strong.

Ultimately it is a scum tell when someone passes out town reads with bad reasoning; I can understand how Levi would interpret Mala's actions as coming from town though.

If Levi is scum, I can also see how he could've been using the town read to deflect and ease Mala's suspicion of himself as well.

I tend to agree with Levi on the matter so its not a very significant point for me.

[Adam-12]

Meh...

Maybe he sounds a little too certain, huh?

[Adam-12]

Ouch. I just noticed the subtle way in which he not assumes but has already

presumed

that she is town. He doesn't say it as such but he uses the word "innocent" -- so in other words, a scum slip.

I seem to recall Levi responding to this at least once in this game...

[Adam-12]

Apparently he hasn't responded to this point yet.

[Adam-12]

..I'm pointing that post out cause he's not really that much of a noob

Ya but I mean he is though and for him to be faking it here is like... I don't see it.

[Adam-12]

Back in the old days, we just lynched people that claimed VT like that to avoid this whole sort of problem. People don't do that anymore.

[Adam-12]

I'll let him address that.

[Adam-12]

Gulle saying that he was not going to be voting Prohawk this day, and taking a stance to it' looks town.

Since nobody is willing to lynch Hawk, I have to agree with this.

Unvote, Vote Levi

[Adam-12]

^^^ fixitkthxbai.

[Adam-12]

Ok, that's better.

I still don't think Guille bused Bork.

FoS Hawk

Vote Count

Not Voting: - Guile, Adam-12, ProHawk

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

Deadline is Sunday, Jan 26th at 11:00 PM EST

[Adam-12]

And we need to vote why?

That is such a scum thing to suggest.

Guille do not vote under any circumstances.

I am going to sleep.

[Adam-12]

BUt ya, that Levi self-hammer was very bad.

[Adam-12]

The order of voting is not important as who we are voting for. In your own way you expressed your desire to vote me and it is obvious who I am voting for. So really it comes down to Guille then. The only thing that will screw us is if Guille is scum.

[Adam-12]

What is it with you and wagons where you always try and get the hammer? And now we are in LYLO and you simply throw down a vote?? Scum ALWAYS vote first in LYLO. I think I am right in having my vote intention on you Hawk.

[Adam-12]

Scum don't have to worry about a quick hammer.

[Adam-12]

In fact you have not been worrying about a quick hammer all game long.

[Adam-12]

Not necessarily.

[Adam-12]

In this case you know who I am voting for.

[Adam-12]

In this case you know who I am voting for.

[Adam-12]

The fact that you placed your vote shows that you care more about Guille voting for me than actually winning the game as town.

[Adam-12]

The fact that you placed your vote shows that you care more about Guille voting for me than actually winning the game as town.

You knew Guille was town which is why you had no problem voting.

[Adam-12]

Because after 14 minutes you realized it looked bad; the point is you placed the vote. You were clearly concerned about Guille voting for me rather than yourself where town would be concerned over Guille possibly quick hammering; this is a scum slip because it presumes that Guille is town. All game long you have been quick hammering or telling others to which fits the profile of someone who is desperate to obtain a quick lynch and end the day and in this case it was end the game.

[Adam-12]

What I mean is that all game long you have been wanting others to quick hammer.

[Adam-12]

As town that should of been your primary concern, not a "whoops wow he might quick hammer" 14 minutes after you placed the vote. Your excuse? "I hate lylo". Sounds like scum to me.

[Adam-12]

You shouldn't just vote because if Guille is scum he will quick hammer and we lose.

[Adam-12]

Can you please withdraw that vote until Guille has had a chance to post!?

My gosh! I clearly think you are scum.

[Adam-12]

What are you trying to twist here?? Guille said he was going to do some research -- he hasn't posted a thing! If you were town you would of removed your vote and not tried to twist something out of it.

[Adam-12]

Ok, clearly Guille is not scum.

Vote Hawk

[Adam-12]

Thankfully, Hawk is not town.

[Adam-12]

Consider the following: Why would I place my vote on Adam when it would just clear Guille as town? It would make it that much harder for me to win as scum.

Because you were more concerned over influencing Guille to vote me -- if you were town YOU WOULD NOT VOTE because you would fear the Guille quick hammer but because you are scum you voted KNOWING that Guille is town. Simple.

[Adam-12]

If he were town, He'd be risking me voting for him instead if I were to find something to favor that.

Right but as scum he already knew I was going to vote him and so he tipped his hand by voting me because he wanted to influence you -- town does NOT vote in that situation for fear that you are scum but he voted -- can you see how that is a scum slip?

[Adam-12]

Your argument is so flawed: How did you know Guille wasn't going to quick hammer?? Its because you are scum that's how.

[Adam-12]

I will point it out again, if you were so sure I was scum, you should have placed your vote down as well, but you were hesitant in the name of the town.

This is also factually incorrect. If I had voted you it would of encouraged you to keep your vote in place (if you were town). Instead, I tried to persuade you to remove your vote. There was no hesitation and you trying to say that there was is scummy.

[Adam-12]

If you would have voted me,

you

would have cleared Guille and that would have brought us to where we are right now, with another Adam vs. Hawk. Just like the last game-day. You were hoping that I would have had my doubts about Guille, so you waited.

Hello, scum bag? If Guille was scum the game would of been over! You voted because you KNEW he was town and didn't fear a quick lynch.

Here is some more evidence:

Why would I as scum practically clear Shrimp/Angel as town D1? I stood by that town-slip because it was such a huge slip and was true.

Town cred and it worked.

Something else from you that doesn't make sense. You completely agreed with that town-slip and then started attacking Angel later-on. You couldn't let her just be confirmed town because you are scum and its devastating to scum to have confirmed town hanging out not getting lynched.

I needed to make sure she wasn't scum because she was scumming up the thread which is why I was questioning her. I've been burned before by "confirmed town" who later replaced and their replacement was scummy because they actually were scum.

[Adam-12]

Its scummy to keep saying that I am scum, but not vote for me. You should have voted me in your post here if you actually believed what you were saying.

Don't try to weasel out of this now. Its LYLO and you were more concerned about influencing Guille's vote (whom you knew was town) than protecting the town by NOT voting.

The order of voting is not important as who we are voting for. In your own way you expressed your desire to vote me and it is obvious who I am voting for. So really it comes down to Guille then. The only thing that will screw us is if Guille is scum.

If you knew who you were going to vote for, and you knew who I was going to vote for, and you were willing to let Guille be the deciding factor, why not place the vote? My theory is you weren't willing to let Guille be the deciding factor because your vote would confirm him as town, and keeping your options open was your best chance at survival.

Because I wanted to see what Guille had to say. Because I wasn't sure he was town like you were because you are scum.