Open 529 -- Picking Simplicity -- Game Over

[don_johnson]

/conforming...

[don_johnson]

VOTE: titus
You seemed eager.

vote: jmo

for hypocrisy. if anyone is eager it is you with that avatar. scum found.

[don_johnson]

see? he's totally freaking out.

[don_johnson]

skull: of course.

tne: who is scum?

wake: any other thoughts?

hgh: is english your first language? what is the highest grade of education you have completed?

[don_johnson]

skull: of course.

tne: who is scum?

wake: any other thoughts?

hgh: is english your first language? what is the highest grade of education you have completed?

[don_johnson]

skull: of course.

Judging by your record, it looks like you've been around the block a few times. Have you never seen a Town player say or do something hypocritical?

townies do scummy things and scums do townie things. that's the nature of wifom. until you have a frame of reference, i.e. flips and associative tells, VCA, etc., you kind of have to call it like you see it. you seem to be gearing up to attack me regarding my RVS vote. by that I mean, you have now basically asked me the same question twice. generally, when someone continues to ask the same question in different ways, it is usually because they are digging for a particular response. I find this to be a scum trait much more than town. scum often "dig" for a response which they can then use for an attack. especially in the early game when our words are the only evidence available. townies will generally only repose a question if they did not understand the answer. did you not understand the humor involved or are you poking a bear with a stick so you can then try to convince the townspeople to shoot him after he mauls you?

[don_johnson]

a couple players seem to be trying to stir the pot. there is really only one bandwagon of note which is mostly a joke wagon. and borophil claimed scum on page 5.

unvote, vote: borophil

[don_johnson]

hi don, thanks for that.

who are the couple you speak of and why is the bandwagon a joke.

skullduggery is one of them. i'd have to go back and look tbh. I find your opening statement odd in that if you believe day 1's to consist of vocal town fighting each other, the very least you could do would be to actually read the thread and pick out those you think are town, and then start scumhunting by poe. at the very least. but your reaction gives me a town read for you. so you're welcome. I think we've been in a game or two before?

unvote

a couple players seem to be trying to stir the pot. there is really only one bandwagon of note which is mostly a joke wagon. and borophil claimed scum on page 5.

unvote, vote: borophil

Can you explain what gives you such assurance in this vote?

there is no assurance in this vote. why on earth would you read it that way? what do you think of borophil?

[don_johnson]

vote skullduggery

not liking their approach. at all. I asked them a serious question about their repeated inquiries to me and they reply by trying to paint me with slanderous and negative terminology. I agree with tcold's gut feeling mentioned above and I see skull coming out on the scumside.

can someone on the aptil wagon, please summarize the aptil wagon?

[don_johnson]

sorry. been busy. I don't think skull is town. she disappeared as the wagon grew. maybe trying to shed the pressure? I don't know. i'll have to go back and read a bit more. skimming most of these longer posts. here's where i'm at:

townie:

Aeronaut
aptil
BoroPhil
elleheathen
Rainbowdash
Titus
RachMarie
JacobSavage
TCold

null:
Evil Regals
HGH7193
jmo16mla
Skelda
thenewearth
Antihero
uctriton00

scum:
Wake88
Brian Skies
Skullduggery

not necessarily seeing these three as scum together, just each a little scummy in their own right. I don't like brian skies post from atop this page. wake, well, that should be obvious. and skull. well, they are my top suspect at the moment. I see no reason to diffuse the wagon on them. the players running around yelling "skull is town! what is happening!" are making themselves look worse regardless of skull's flip. I see no reason to whine about an existing wagon on day one unless the accused is obvtown, which no one seems to be saying or proving. the best argument made yet is that the argument was town v. town, but that's sketchy and no one has explained why.

I will try and stay active a bit more often, just got a lot going on right now. those of you who know me know I am rarely prodded.

[don_johnson]

not sure what kind of reasons you want. many of the players in my townpile are players I have played with before. I believe they are capable and so accept them into my town circle until given reason otherwise. null pile is players I haven't noticed or don't know. scum is who I think are good candidates for lynch. I gave reasons on skull. she askedf the same question twice, almost in a leading type of manner. then she tried to characterize my play and reactions in a negative manner(using the term "paranoid", I believe) when my reactions were no such thing. brian skies seems to be convinced that skull is town and that the wagon is scummy, but that makes no sense. and I see no evidence presented to back up that opinion. wake I would need to go back and reread to find what pinged the scumdar. as for null, if you think skelda is town, then that's fine. I only lynch out of my null pile if its necessary. our reads don't have to line up. if I had more time I could expand, but like I said, been pretty busy and will continue to be. I am fine saving my "rereading" and further analysis for after a flip or two. this is a large game. i'm not gonna waste my time and energy on freaking out on day 1, especially when I have a player on the hook who looks like genuine scum.

[don_johnson]

jacobsavage: you haven't done anything scummy. I vaguely remember playing with you before and not being offended by your play. hence, until you prove otherwise, you go in my town pile.

brianskies: just because two things are next to each other does not mean the poster is implying correlation. I don't have time now, but I will quote you the post where I got my vibes from you. imo, you implied skull was town and that the wagon was bad. how does the speed of a wagon have an effect on scumminess? calling a wagon "scummy" because of its speed makes no sense unless said wagon is on town. do you see the disconnect here and why this would be suspicious to me? there has been no flip. no alignment reveal. there is no credible evidence that points to skull being town. the speed of the wagon is irrelevant. yet you use the wagons speed to discredit it? even if we assume skull to be town, how many scum do you think could be on that townie wagon? your logic here is weak. I would assume at most 2 scum would be on a fast growing town wagon. at most. fact is, I think the rates of scum being on the wagon increase with a scum target. i.e. scum buddies would be eager to bus. meaning if you think the wagon is scummy, then its more likely that the wagon is actually on scum. at least in my opinion. but what do I know?

I will try and address some more of these posts in the am. I have elleheathen in my town pile so I need to take a look at that info.

[don_johnson]

Skull dissappearing is making him look even scummier in my eyes. Keeping my vote where it is.

sorry. been busy. I don't think skull is town. she disappeared as the wagon grew. maybe trying to shed the pressure? I don't know. i'll have to go back and read a bit more. skimming most of these longer posts.

A cursory look at Skull's site-wide activity shows that his last post is in this thread. ^Bad confirmation justifications are bad.

assuming a player isn't smart enough to disappear from all their games when they need to disappear from one in which they are being lynched as scum, is bad.

[don_johnson]

regals: are you referring to my logic? or are you agreeing with me?

wagon detractors: if you guys think skull is town, maybe you should start explaining why you think this instead of attacking those of us who think she is scum. I think there is a term for that...

[don_johnson]

assuming a player isn't smart enough to disappear from all their games when they need to disappear from one in which they are being lynched as scum, is bad.

you're saying that he altered his entire site meta for one game?

that... is...

dedication

...

that's how I do it.

You are trying to say: Skull rolled scum. Skull site flaked because of one game due to overwhelming pressure of a possible alignment.

Now had Skull constantly posted elsewhere and dodged this game you could have a point, but site flaking doesn't mean scum.

You are making more out of it.

um no. I simply pointed out that skull's disappearance does not help skull look town. someone else said " but hey, they flaked the whole site." all i'm saying is that someone flaking the whole site should not be used as evidence to clear them from their responsibilities to this thread. it is very possible that skull has a rl reason for flaking and that said reason affected them sitewide. but it is just as plausible that they saw the heat coming down, wanted to lurk, realized that it is very easy for people to check up on them sitewide, and made the decision to lurk sitewide. i'm not trying to use the sitewide absence to convict them. I am just not going to tolerate the argument "well they flaked site wide," as an autoinnocent. because any good player knows they can be tracked and knows:

Now had Skull constantly posted elsewhere and dodged this game you could have a point.

^^ that this is what most people look for. so again. not using sitewide absence to convict. just not accepting it as evidence to the contrary.

and yes, chainsawing is the term. I am not speaking to you, though, regal, because you seem to be generally interested in skull's innocence. if you read brianskies 309 you will not find any evidence brought forth to show skull as innocent. just an attack on me and the wagon. the attack on the wagon is illogical as brian says "who" the wagon is on is irrelevant. does that make any sense to you? I need to go back and see what he said before too, I can't remember exactly which of his posts set me off, but I'd like to go back and look to compare it to what he is saying now. maybe i'm wrong, but I don't see how you can call a wagon "scummy" because of its speed if you don't have a flip or two to relate it to.

[don_johnson]

assuming a player isn't smart enough to disappear from all their games when they need to disappear from one in which they are being lynched as scum, is bad.

you're saying that he altered his entire site meta for one game?

that... is...

dedication

...

that's how I do it.

You are trying to say: Skull rolled scum. Skull site flaked because of one game due to overwhelming pressure of a possible alignment.

Now had Skull constantly posted elsewhere and dodged this game you could have a point, but site flaking doesn't mean scum.

You are making more out of it.

um no. I simply pointed out that skull's disappearance does not help skull look town. someone else said " but hey, they flaked the whole site." all i'm saying is that someone flaking the whole site should not be used as evidence to clear them from their responsibilities to this thread. it is very possible that skull has a rl reason for flaking and that said reason affected them sitewide. but it is just as plausible that they saw the heat coming down, wanted to lurk, realized that it is very easy for people to check up on them sitewide, and made the decision to lurk sitewide. i'm not trying to use the sitewide absence to convict them. I am just not going to tolerate the argument "well they flaked site wide," as an autoinnocent. because any good player knows they can be tracked and knows:

Now had Skull constantly posted elsewhere and dodged this game you could have a point.

^^ that this is what most people look for. so again. not using sitewide absence to convict. just not accepting it as evidence to the contrary.

and yes, chainsawing is the term. I am not speaking to you, though, regal, because you seem to be generally interested in skull's innocence. if you read brianskies 309 you will not find any evidence brought forth to show skull as innocent. just an attack on me and the wagon. the attack on the wagon is illogical as brian says "who" the wagon is on is irrelevant. does that make any sense to you? I need to go back and see what he said before too, I can't remember exactly which of his posts set me off, but I'd like to go back and look to compare it to what he is saying now. maybe i'm wrong, but I don't see how you can call a wagon "scummy" because of its speed if you don't have a flip or two to relate it to.

[don_johnson]

rersponding backwards:

wake: I said it was obvious because there was a case brought against you. I don't have one myself and am not planning on making one. but from what I read, I would sooner vote you than many others at this point. sorry if that hurts your feelings. if you really want me to build a case on you, I can go back and point out exactly what pinged for me, but I would sooner devote my time and effort to getting my main suspect lynched.

my reads list was explained. i'm not sure why neither you nor Jacob understand it. Jacob is in the auto-town pile until he does something scummy. if it makes you both more comfortable, I am happy to move him to the null pile, but I trust his judgement as town, so unless he does something that makes me think he is scum, i'm keeping him where he is.

the counterwagon is good. counterwagons are always good for information.

kind of skimming elle/rainbow atm. would rather lynch skull than sort them out.

The fact that Skull has logged in multiple times and hasn't said anything in regards to it or posted a v/la doesn't look good - but yeah, I agree that it's pretty null, regardless.

^^ according to the logic presented, this fact makes it lean scum. but whatevz.

^^ that this is what most people look for. so again. not using sitewide absence to convict. just not accepting it as evidence to the contrary.

you're not using it to convict...?

I'm

confused

...

...

why did you even bring it up at all, then?

I find it suspicious when scumsuspects disappear. certainly worth noting. i'm not saying it is a reason "why" they are scum. i.e. i'm not predicating my case on it. its just something worth noting. in a situation like this, where we have someone acting scummy and then disappearing, and then we have others defending that person, it is worth noting how that person reacts. there are things skull could do to help their cause, and tings that are detrimental. disappearing is detrimental. then you have to look at motivation. which leads you to realize that disappearing is not null, but anti-town at best. i'm pointing out the behavior. not using it to convict. others are saying "skull is innocent!" but they are producing no evidence as to why they think that.

brianskies:

brianskies: just because two things are next to each other does not mean the poster is implying correlation. I don't have time now, but I will quote you the post where I got my vibes from you. imo, you implied skull was town and that the wagon was bad. how does the speed of a wagon have an effect on scumminess? calling a wagon "scummy" because of its speed makes no sense unless said wagon is on town. do you see the disconnect here and why this would be suspicious to me? there has been no flip. no alignment reveal. there is no credible evidence that points to skull being town. the speed of the wagon is irrelevant. yet you use the wagons speed to discredit it? even if we assume skull to be town, how many scum do you think could be on that townie wagon? your logic here is weak. I would assume at most 2 scum would be on a fast growing town wagon. at most. fact is, I think the rates of scum being on the wagon increase with a scum target. i.e. scum buddies would be eager to bus. meaning if you think the wagon is scummy, then its more likely that the wagon is actually on scum. at least in my opinion. but what do I know?

1) I am extremely interested to see where I implied Skull was town.

ok. if you think skull is scum, then what is your problem with the wagon? looking back, you are correct, you did not state your feelings on skull's alignment directly. that may have been me inferring meaning where you did not intend. imo, you criticized the speed of the wagon which brings me back to my question at the beginning of this paragraph. you say the wagon is scummy. but what does that matter unless you think the wagon is on town? isn't a scum lynch what we are after?

2) I didn't say the wagon was bad. I said it was scummy. There is a difference. A bad wagon implies that either the reasoning for the wagon is bad or the person being wagoned is town. A scummy wagon implies there are scum on the wagon or the wagon is scum-motivated. I said there were scum on the wagon. Hence, I think the wagon is scummy, not bad.

^^ this looks like a semantics argument. I am using "bad" and "scummy" interchangeably. this again returns me to the "what's the problem with the wagon if its on scum?"

3) I'm not discrediting the wagon to begin with, so how can I be using the speed of the wagon to do so?

um. you stated the wagon was scummy. you stated its moving too fast. then you voted one of the players who started the wagon. you're not exactly cheerleading for the wagon. /sarcasm

4) I said there are at least 1 scum on the wagon and you said my logic was weak. Then you go on to say there are at most 2 scum on the wagon. The middle ground is clearly defined as 1 or 2 scum on the wagon. So where is the problem with the logic?

the problem arises when you try to undermine the wagon. let's break it down: do you think skull is town or scum? why?

[don_johnson]

titus: no offense, but if you don't have time for a VCA, what makes you think I have time to build a secondary case? I will address wake when I need to and when I have the time. at the moment, I am OK with my skull read. maybe that will change. maybe not. I am also currently intrigued to see what brainskies responds with. I think your wagon analysis is a good idea.

a quick iso of the mod reveals:

first thing which stands out to me is that brianskies is on both early HGH, then aptil, hasn't voted skull, but seems to be fencesitting the wagon. i.e. refusing to take a stance on skull's alignment, but calling the wagon "scummy" irrelevant of the alignment of the target. this may change, but its the first thing which stands out. Tcold is on all three. that's all that stands out in a cursory glance. this does not include any votes in context either. might be worth looking into it further.

[don_johnson]

brianskies:

ok. if you think skull is scum, then what is your problem with the wagon? looking back, you are correct, you did not state your feelings on skull's alignment directly. that may have been me inferring meaning where you did not intend. imo, you criticized the speed of the wagon which brings me back to my question at the beginning of this paragraph. you say the wagon is scummy. but what does that matter unless you think the wagon is on town? isn't a scum lynch what we are after?

1) A scum lynch is indeed what we're after and I do not have a problem with a wagon being on Skull, especially since she's already in my lynch pile.
2) What I do have a problem with is an L-1 10 pages into a 20 person game with more than two weeks left on the deadline.

this may just be a difference in playstyle then. i have a much different view of the game than you do. to me, there is absolutely nothing wrong with an L-1 on page 10. especially if you believe that its on scum.

My opinion of the wagon is independent of Skull's alignment for two reasons (that you've already mentioned for me, tyvm):
1) If Skull is town, then there are probably scum on the wagon. They are probably looking for an easy quicklynch

and/or denying the town valuable information

. I am not okay with this.
2) If Skull is scum, then there are probably scum on the wagon. They are probably looking to bus

and/or denying the town valuable information

. I am not okay with the bold part.

^^ seems like you are able to glean quite a bit of info from this wagon then. this is where you lose me.

In both cases, they are denying me information.

no. no one is denying you anything. once you get the flip, you go back and reread and find the scum you seem to be implying is there.

If you've been reading my posts up to this point, I have been strongly urging the use of wagons, but I have also expressed a strong stance on early information. What I want most is information. If we get a quick lynch on scum without having the information to do anything with it, then what's the point?

why are you implying that there is no information available here?

Our goal is to eliminate all the threats to the town, not just one.

agreed. i don't need a 30 page day 1 to do that. i have never been a fan of long days, 100 page games, or anything of the like. i find day 1 to be much more informative after flips. though i can agree a super quick lynch is not ideal, i disagree that an L-1 on page 10 is by any means "quick". do we want more discussion? sure. should we be afraid of someone hammering scum? no. if you want to be afraid of someone hammering town, i can get that, but now you have taken the stance that you believe skull is scum. so that really doesn't apply here. but whatevz.

um. you stated the wagon was scummy. you stated its moving too fast. then you voted one of the players who started the wagon. you're not exactly cheerleading for the wagon. /sarcasm

I'm not voting you because you were on the wagon or started the wagon. If I was going to do that, there were other options I could have chosen. I'm voting you because you misrepped me.

i don't feel i misrepped you. i believe i misunderstood you. but ok. i can buy that. do you think i am scum?

the problem arises when you try to undermine the wagon. let's break it down: do you think skull is town or scum? why?

Once again, I'm not undermining the wagon. When have I said the wagon was bad? The issue I had was people jumping on the wagons early on into the game and with terrible reasoning (HGH for example). If we just allow scum and town to jump on wagons on a whim, then we are setting ourselves up for failure.

then why aren't you questioning all the people who just jumped on the wagon? that might be a good place to start. and again, "bad" and "scummy" share a meaning for me, so imo you have been saying all along that the wagon is bad(scummy). i don't see the point in arguing semantics and it makes me distrust you more.

Secondly, I already mentioned this in this post, Skull is currently in my lynch pile. Why? For much of the same reasoning she was a scumread in my first reads list (post 97).

great. so we agree. why are we arguing again?

first thing which stands out to me is that brianskies is on both early HGH, then aptil, hasn't voted skull, but seems to be fencesitting the wagon. i.e. refusing to take a stance on skull's alignment, but calling the wagon "scummy" irrelevant of the alignment of the target.

1) I was on the HGH wagon because I wanted to provide pressure. I actually wanted to vote Skull, but it didn't seem I needed to because there was already an ongoing discussion. Plus, my read of her was more than enough to get her attention. 19 people to read, but only 1 vote.

how did that work out? what is your current read on HGH?

2) I voted Aptil because anti-hero convinced me to with logic I agreed with. I felt it was a better wagon.

what is your current read on aptil?

3) I'm not fencesitting the wagon. If you want to know my stance, I would gladly vote Skull. However, I don't need to because there is already plenty of pressure provided by other players and a discussion has already been generated.

ok. glad to know i can count on your vote when we're ready to lynch.

4) When have I actively refused to take a stance on Skull's alignment?

i feel like I've been pulling your teeth to get info. maybe its just a difference in communication style. i feel like you engage in doublespeak and i am really turned off by the semantics argument. i had no idea until these last two posts how you really felt about skull. now i do.

5) Yes, I do believe the wagon is scummy and my stance does not depend on Skull's alignment.

what exactly is scummy about the wagon? i get that you feel i misrepped you, but if you think skull is scum, and you think the wagon is scummy, don't you think you should start looking into it? i mean, objectively speaking, isn't my vote one of the earliest on the wagon? isn't my vote at least somewhat well reasoned? if its the speed of the wagon that you think is scummy, then you should be looking into the players who hopped on, no? i don't know. you're becoming an enigma to me. i can't tell if we're just polar opposite when it come to game philosophy, or if you're just slippery scum trying to weasel your way out of an awkward situation.

moving on.

And don't even get me started on 319, that is illogical! What kind of person stops posting on the whole site for one game? .

so now that skull admitted to not posting on the entire site because of one game, does this change your opinion?

also,

unvote

given skull's recent post.

skull, if i missed some legitimate questions just repost them and i'll answer.

now i have to reread with skull as town.

[don_johnson]

skelda's vote on me looks uber opportunistic.

[don_johnson]

skelda's vote on me looks uber opportunistic.

go on.....

its pretty much an ad hom attack. though it points to a couple posts, it doesn't really flesh out any logical reasoning. I guess I can wait for their answer to my last question, but I don't think the idea of someone lurking sitewide due to pressure in a single game is illogical, let alone terrible. not to mention, that wasn't even the crux of my case against skull. further, skull then came in and admitted to lurking due to anxiety over this game. the vote is placed on what is arguably the newest growing wagon(both in votes placed and in support voiced) over the last couple pages. the vote comes from the HGH wagon. which is never explained. why the move. what of HGH now? it just seems like a really easy post for someone to make at that point in the game. what are your thoughts?

[don_johnson]

sorry. maybe I wasn't clear enough. I disagree with your "case" against me if that's what you call it. I don't think I was scummy at all. I think you asked me the same question twice. had I not answered it, I could see your reasons, but asking the same question twice when you were given what was, imo, a clear and distinct answer, is just odd. I see scum do that a lot. they harp on the same thing consistently enough until they get an answer that they can use to attack a person. no offense, but I don't like your playstyle(if that's what it is). my unvote and move to the town pile is based on something I see in your post which indicates to me that I could be wrong about you. I don't really feel a need to expand on it, but rest assured, I do not agree with 90% of what you posted. but disagreeing with someone doesn't mean they are scum. I can sort you out later. I am more concerned with skelda. her vote seemed opportunistic and her case is ad hom with a small sprinkling of piggy-back. she is also ignoring the things which don't support her case(i.e. where you recently admitted to lurking due to anxiety over this game). what is your take on skelda?

brianskies: I can agree to move on. your posting style is difficult for me to decipher. every time you post I feel like you are contradicting something you said earlier, but then when I go back to look, you just aren't. if you're scum, you're doing a great job.

ok, so those of you voting me, am I going to have to debunk skull's case? or do any of you have something original to say?

[don_johnson]

you're quoting something I never said. you're ignoring skull's actual statement. you are not acknowledging the fact you were wrong. what I said was perfectly logical as proven by skull's admission of her actions.

if you have a case against me, please present it so I can respond. as it stands you have only piggy backed skull's case(which was already addressed but if people want I can address again), and stated ad hom attacks, and of course, now, you have misquoted me. try again.

[don_johnson]

"Oh, I've been caught in one game! Let's stop playing every game!"

^^this is a gross misrepresentation of the logic I put forward. what I stated was that "she's lurking in all her games sitewide", was not viable reasoning to forgive her for lurking in this game as it is just as easy and expected for someone to lurk sitewide when under pressure as it is to expect them to lurk in a single game. i was using logic to prevent skull from being let off the hook with illogical reasoning.

[don_johnson]

again. skelda is misrepresenting my original case on skull.

vote:skelda

[don_johnson]

Also, is this whole sacrificing VTs thing common? It seems pretty idiotic. Shouldn't the job of the VT be to be killed by the scum, not to waste the town's lynches and increase the scum's chances of landing on PRs?

although, score one in the sensible post column here.

[don_johnson]

new plan.

unvote, vote Tcold

[don_johnson]

Kay, what's your plan Don?

isn't it obvious? vote the guy whose been on all three early wagons and has contributed nothing recently. it was actually partially your idea.

[don_johnson]

^^you're ridiculous. but I like you. and your avatar. I will need to go back in and read some of these longer posts. in the meantime:

rainbowdash: whats your take on Tcold?

Tcold: do you have anything to say?

ucitron and regals read town to me.

see you in the AM.

[don_johnson]

whatever makes you happy, kid. good nite.

[don_johnson]

TCold: we miss you. come out and play.

[don_johnson]

TCold called. he said he wants more votes.

[don_johnson]

I liked Skull's case on Don_Johnson

no. you didn't. it was terrible. these aren't the droids you're looking for...

[don_johnson]

it already is. maybe we should just lynch wake.

[don_johnson]

Both Jacob and Don should be lynched for trying to kill a Townie.

L.
O.
L.

[don_johnson]

wake: please stop. say something useful. we get it. you're town. so am I. so is everyone else.

i'm sticking with my vote.

[don_johnson]

or you could claim at L-1. it really depends on the situation. at times there can even be a case made to not claim at all, or to claim at L-2, 3, 4, whatever.

[don_johnson]

uc: what is "bad" with my iso? this game is a clusterfuck of replacements, a big argument between skull/elle, and a policy lynch discussion. if I am going to vote wake, its not going to be policy. just because I support others in their views regarding the idea, does not make me "part" of it. do you see where my vote is? in any case, wake is gambitting, you are saying so yourself, and the only player in this game who "needs" to get to endgame is the sk. so imo, wake is a better candidate for sk than he is for scum at this point. but that is neither here nor there. my townread on you is based off of a statement or two you have made, its not comprehensive. what was your accusation on me again?

maen:i will take a look at lora when i get the chance.

sven: can you drop some current reads? your predecessor was one of(if not the) only player(s) on all the early wagons. where is your head at?

antihero: please expand on this- "I say we vote for BP or jmo (for reasons that RBD and I have already stated). I would also roll with a jacob wagon." you can just point me to a post regarding jmo if you would rather not restate a case. thanks.

mod: v/la for the weekend.

regals: don't replace out. time is on our side. with the number of replacements we are getting i'm sure a deadline extension request would be granted if necessary.

[don_johnson]

sven: you answering the query is the best course. humor me.

[don_johnson]

sven: I asked you pretty simple questions and you brushed them off. I think someone else actually answered for you for part of it. i'm not trying to be confrontational with you, but I take issue with your predecessor's actions(not his posting necessarily) and I merely am looking for you to explain yourself to me in your own words. i'm not sure what i'm doing to "irk" you, so if you have any questions for me i'd be happy to answer. if you can please just summarize or link me to posts that explain your stances that would be great. I don't have big chuns of time atm for a full reread and it doesn't look like things are going to slow up for me until late this week or next weekend, so if you want my participation i'm gonna need your help. it's day 1. there's not a lot of folks I won't lynch today if it comes down to it, but i'd like to get my vote where it will help most. I generally find that when people get offended or flustered by simple questions, it is an indication they are likely scum. if you are town, what advantage are you getting by not engaging me? you seem to have questions about my alignment. don't you think a little convo can help us both?

Maen: what's the case on Lora?

Skelda: I would like to look at BP, but he was an early town read of mine due to his reactions to me. can you point out where he is ignoring things and maybe one or two of these "blind" votes?

[don_johnson]

sven is likely scum.

[don_johnson]

his avoidance. I've asked pretty simple things of him. I can't remember where or when he posted any of the things he claims to have posted. if someone said to me: hey dj, where was your case on so and so? I would say "post 76" or whatever. not be like "i'm not answering and you're bothering me." it could be a playstyle difference, but couple it with Tcold's "easyrider" wagoning and it says scum to me. all sven has to do is engage, but he refuses. I see no town motivation not to engage.

[don_johnson]

Sven, what do you think of BoroPhil? Don?

If you were king of the town, who would you lynch? Why? Where have you pointed out their scumminess previously.

sven. in the post two posts ago. before that I mentioned my thoughts on the VCA in post 344. see how easy that was?

oh and look. ad hom attacks from sven.

skelda: what behavior? since when is asking "hey, what are your reads and/or please point them out to me any type of "behavior"?

read on BP: I would have to go back and reread a bit. seemed town to me from our initial interactions. if someone wants to direct me to the case on him I will gladly read it.

[don_johnson]

I thought that was directed at me. but see what I mean? he's avoiding backing up his reads with evidence.

[don_johnson]

No I am refusing stating things that I have allready stated, especially to someone who contributes as little as you.

if you have a question for me, just ask. currently I am contributing what is shaping up to be a pretty damn good case on your slot. i'm not even asking you to restate things. you can just give me post numbers to read if you want. I am pressuring you to explain yourself. instead of standing up for what you claim to think, you are folding under that pressure. I guess you just really want my vote.

[don_johnson]

yes, it is quite ironic that sven's only contribution is being upset because people are "not contributing".

vote sven. you won't be disappointed.

brian: don't ever do that again.

[don_johnson]

sven: what did you get from the uct wagon?

[don_johnson]

first of all: reading isn.'t everything in this game.

sven: I think you and I are more alike than I first thought. my issue with phil is much like your town read on ucti. I base a lot of my reads on small snippets of conversations with people that give me impressions one way or the other. I firmly do not believe activity is necessarily a towntell, nor is large amounts of content. large amounts of content can be protown because they can be sifted through later on with more clarity after flips, so it is generally a good idea to let people who choose to blow up the thread with content do just that. but reading it all on day 1 is unnecessary imo. I get in fights with people about this all the time, but bottom line is I generally tell people: you play your way i'll play mine. that said, I was pushing you because I thought your requests were a bit hypocritical, but looking through your iso and listening to your response now I think we may have a personal issue. hopefully we can put that behind us. I prfer not to spar with folks on a personal level.(although if I have a scumspect in the crosshares I have been know to get a bit cheeky.)

aptil is not a good vote for lack of activity. just not.

ALBERT!!!!!!!!!! long time no see. looks like borophil is on his way to the noose. can you quick iso or something and give me your impression of him? I had a town read based on his initial reaction to my saltiness, but haven't been paying much attention of late and several players seem to have a beef with him.

guys, the walls are eye burning. I can truly only skim for the sake of not burying myself here when I have tons of other shit to do. and no, I don't replace out. I do just fine with my coasting style, so bugger off.

"He has the third greatest number of posts, and yet he has contributed zero content."

^^ this is the main push of the phil wagon? I will look into this soon. if anyone else has points against phil please post them short and sweet. at this time I loosely oppose the wagon.

unvote

[don_johnson]

also, jmo seems to be the most likely counterwagon here, so we should probably get some thoughts on and from that slot. will iso them as well.

[don_johnson]

sven's wagon hopping is one of the things that reinforces the town read i'm getting. it does not look opportunistic imo.

what are your thoughts on your wagon?

[don_johnson]

Albert: wagons have been kind of crappy and spread out all day. it looks like phil is getting the noose. lora and jmo tied for second. so if you want to quick iso those three it will give you a good place to start.

[don_johnson]

mod: can we get a vote count?

I would be ok with a wake or aptil quick wagon here at the end of the day. both of their last posts are scummy as hell.

vote: aptil

i'll be around this morning if needs be to switch.

[don_johnson]

wake: then who is scum?

[don_johnson]

Don, don't ask dishonest questions. Noted.

I said there's undoubtedly two Scum on the BP wagon. Both you and I know, however, that I'm not psychic, nor do I know who exactly they are.

how is that a "dishonest" question? i'm asking you who you think is scum. saying "there's at least two scum on the wagon" is a pretty frivolous statement in a 20p game. you infer too much here. the question was pretty simple. and you dodged it. here's some more questions: are there two scum on the wagon regardless of BP's alignment? if he flips scum, who do you think is scum? if he flips town, who do you think is scum? no one expects you to be psychic, but asking you to explain your rationale is not a "dishonest" inquiry. what you just said is equivalent to someone saying "well, there's four scum out there somewhere."

unvote, vote: wake

for capping off a day of useless drivel with even more useless drivel. wake wagon is a go.

[don_johnson]

wake, go for aptil, over

Why?

maybe because we're closing in on deadline and need to do something as oppsed to all you're doing which is running interference on all the viable wagons?

[don_johnson]

So basically Don is a liability to Town.

says the guy doing nothing to advance a lynch within 48 hrs of deadline.

If I am lynched, I hope everyone takes note of Don's excuse to cast a vote towards me.

please do. only scum benefits from your current actions.

I have no interest in being paranoid or illogical like some other players. If you're paranoid enough, you'll see Scum anywhere and everywhere.

and considering you have thrown your hands in the air and done nothing to advance a lynch within 48 hrs of deadline, dodged the questions I asked of you, and made vague unhelpful statements as your only contribution after spending the day saying "i'm town." I think you can't see scum because you are scum. you know exactly where they are but don't want to lock yourself into too many stated suspicions.

EDIT: Some of you guys are fucking unbelievable, vile and rude as hell. I think I'll replace out to keep you from mislynching if you're going to be so nasty and stupid.

AtE, ad hom. all you have to do is answer questions and participate in the deadline lynch and you refuse. I see no reason for town to be acting as you are acting.

[don_johnson]

meh. you could be right. but its wifom at this point. in all honesty its his posting now and the last couple pages that is really pinging for me. we need to come together. the phil lynch just seems misguided. I can go back to aptil if necessary and i'll lynch phil if we absolutely have to, but I really think wake has a good chance of flipping scum/sk. nothing about his game has been particularly helpful, and now, when we are closing in on deadline, he is ignoring questions, slinging mud, and not voting a viable wagon nor pushing the wagon he does support. its all detrimental behavior and reads particularly scummy to me at this stage of the day. i'd like to see the phil wagon move over and string him up. if he is town, there would be a lot of shit to sift through, where a phil/aptil town flip would be less informative imo. a wake scum flip would be gold and in my opinion is more likely given this last minute sketchiness.

[don_johnson]

don't forget the sk is investigative immune, which means that slot has every reason to play the long con against town and scum. it may be an even more likely flip than scum for wake, but either way, this guy is not town.

[don_johnson]

shit. just skimmed recent posts. will read this in depth later tonight or tomorrow. I have shit to do.

wake: you are deflecting and misrepresenting the question. there is no need for all caps. just answer the question. you aren't even campaigning for your top suspect. if you can't tell me who you think is scum on a wagon, then how do you get off saying there is scum on the wagon? like I said, its akin to saying "there is scum in this game." its a useless pedantic statement. 1079 is a huge deflection from the mater at hand and if you think NOT telling us why we should vote your top suspect this close to deadline is somehow a townie thing to do, then you need to rethink your playstyle. as it stands, I just don't see your feigned ignorance, actions, reactions, and overreactions this close to deadline as anything but scum/sk motivated.

p-edit: sven, no. he's not.

[don_johnson]

wake may be town. sk is more likely than scum imo given the context of his gambit. but like has been discussed, that should take care of itself. please note he has still not answered the simplest of questions and is relying solely on ad hom, feigned ignorance, AtE, and AtA.

unvote, vote: aptil

better than phil. i'll be back before deadline, but i'd like to hear from the majority of the phil wagon. they seem to have gone silent during all of this.

[don_johnson]

aptil hasn't done anything. I think that is the main thrust of the wagon. personally, my vote landed there due to one particular post. 1024. it was a very strange post and vote onto the jmo wagon. just seemed like by then there could be so much more to think about or talk about. aptil is not my first choice. i'm willing to move to the phil wagon, but we're neck and neck right now. its kind of exciting. looks like we got a day or so extension.

[don_johnson]

the aptil lynch would not be devoid of info. interactions sure, they would be light due to the lurker status, but the fact that he's neck and neck with phil would give us a lot of vote explanations to sift through on both wagons. please note that phil is voting aptil as well. so an aptil scum flip doesn't mean that phil is town. phil will still have to show up tomorrow and convince us of such. and that works both ways. but whatevz. the only odd thing I notice about 786 is how phil seems like his vote should be going to skelda, but it lands on jmo. other than that I'm not picking up too much from it. i'm not sure about the sven thing titus mentioned.

[don_johnson]

@DJ, not sure as in you don't agree or not sure as you don't understand?

I don't understand it.

[don_johnson]

borophil: please claim. i'm a gonna hammer ya....

[don_johnson]

^^ tru dat.

[don_johnson]

wake or aptil are fine by me.

[don_johnson]

sorry phil. if the winds don't change soon i'm gonna hammer you.

[don_johnson]

titus: i'm not getting scumvibes from phil. I've mentioned that a few times now and the only issue I take from 786 is the skelda suspicion then jmo vote. can you explain the thing about sven?

[don_johnson]

unvote, Vote: borophil

gotcha. I had the early tcold read and I agree with sven, though his later calming down did help shift him to a town read for me.

[don_johnson]

its a hammer. why do you want to murder me? phil is not dripping town. its too early for scum to try and counterclaim a pr as the odds of survival are better melting into the vt pot. also, the odds of you living throught the night are pretty good given the sheer size of this game. your AtE pre-flip on a read you called out as scum not two posts ago is noted.

p-edit: titus: whaaa? I gave reasons for all my reads. are we in the same game here. jeez, for a couple guys asking for a hammer, you sure are ungrateful.

[don_johnson]

sorry, I interpreted your posts as wanting a hammer. titus' too. I stated my intent and gave plenty of time for more input. and i'm not cutting the day short at all. we're about fifty pages in. that's plenty. your paranoia about being nk'd in a 20 player is noted. if you are town, then your issue with my hammer is a playstyle difference. your inability to account for that, especially when we've played together before is kind of silly.

and please note, I had asked titus to explain the "sven" thing, and I read his post as "please hammer phil because look at the connection with sven who was a shared earlier scum read." so quoting two of my posts and trying to show some sort of dissonance that isn't there is a bit scummy. whatevz mastin. calling out your frame job isn't a town thing to do either. so not sure why you would say anything like that, especially pre-flip.

PRE-FLIP.

well done.

[don_johnson]

you do realize that

you

could have simply unvoted him, right?

[don_johnson]

you do realize that

you

could have simply unvoted him, right?

The thought didn't cross my mind.

then that's your fault.

In hindsight? Yes. It should have. But it didn't. Maybe because I didn't know just how close he was to being lynched, maybe because I wasn't expecting anyone to hammer just yet, who knows, but the thought wasn't there.

so the L-1 post and the player saying "he's at L-1" and the two posts I made that said "intent to hammer", what happened to those? don't blame me for you not paying attention.

You're cutting the day short because there's a player who just replaced in, and deadline's not until tomorrow.

cry me a river. if you didn't support the lynch you shouldn't have voted until you were caught up. there was no "pressure" value to your vote.

That limits the player's ability to get content in before the night. And it's a

ridiculously

common scum tactic to off the new guy to the game, because they're likely to pick up on something that the established players will miss, because they're not in a position to be manipulated as easily.

wifom. we've got fifty pages of shit to sift through. anyone who hasn't said what they had to say by now probably isn't worth listening to at this time. in your case, I had no idea where you were in your catch-up, but I did notice you calling phil a scum read and voting on his wagon. it seemed like both you and titus wanted that hammer imo. your rationale here is weaksauce, self centered, paranoid, and ignores your own culpability. it is also premature.

[don_johnson]

So, Boro, town or scum?

conveniently, mastin has his game plan for tomorrow regardless of the flip. in a 20 player game mind you. Lol.

[don_johnson]

sven: your reads are lazy. if you are town, you are letting scum spoon feed you strategy. try again.

ABR is most likely town. no way scumABR defends a buddy going down in flames.

I think maenara is as close to confirmed town as you can get, so I don't get their inclusion in RBD's scumlist. i thought they were more or less the central catalyst for that phil wagon, and i don't see scum bussing that hard on day one.

i will get to rereading this a bit soon.

[don_johnson]

wake: the role pm's do not differentiate the method of killing. either anti-town faction could have killd mastin to set up the djmislynch or been scum or townpr hunting. from my pov, mastin is not a tremendously strong player. i'm not sure why you think someone would fear him. all in all. an odd post from you.

skullduggery: any particular town/scum reads besides your vote?

[don_johnson]

wake: ok. well that helps to clear things up. I saw the flavor but when I checked the pms there was no differentiation as to who had what weapon. that makes sense though and thanks to the mod for confirming. my guess would be sk hit mastin as scum

or

to push the djmislynch. having given it some thought, I would imagine our sk is among the less active players. I don't see any reason for an sk to be out mixing it up and drawing attention to themselves especially in a game this large. as for scum killing skelda, I will need to pay attention to it on reread.

rbd: i'll have to look back at manera, but I felt like their switch back to the phil wagon was what really gave it its final momentum.

skies: can you explain your sven vote a little more? i'm not following that post.

[don_johnson]

mastin was killed by sk. not scum. your basic premise here doesn't work. imo, wake is most likely active candidate for sk. I would be more inclined to think sk is lurking. I don't see another path to victory for an sk in such a large game.

skull: the ABR wagon looks too easy. I don't see scumABR defending phil in such a manner. I honestly didn't see a case on phil so I can honestly believe others when they agreed with me. it doesn't clear ABR, but phil was a compromise lynch for me. I think some vote analysis can help, but I think some of the less vocal players who were off that wagon should be pressured today. I will trust your opinion if you say ABR is the guy today, though, but I don't see any reason to rush it. i'm gonna need time to sift through skelda and the phil wagon.

vote:aptil

there is no reason to assume you are clear. hopping the easy wagon doesn't absolve you from providing reads/analysis etc.

p-edit: I don't believe I said you were "asking" for a hammer directly, but the implications were there imo that phil was heading to the gallows. the late day shuffling was risky. I secured a lynch, not the one I wanted, but a lynch. I am always an active deadline player. I have only been in a couple games where we no lynched and it is a detriment hands down. I know its wifom, but as scum I would have held out longer to hammer or been on the scum wagon earlier. i can somewhat see the case on ABR due to his hold out for aptil, but imo, ABR seemed to be believing in his read on phil and i don't think phil did anything noticeably scummy, which is why i want to go back and analyze individual votes.

[don_johnson]

asking you questions to sum up your thoughts is not scummy. its called communicating. i see you say you call me out on not having thoughts, but you conveniently ignore the thoughts of mine which you quoted that pertained directly to my read on you at the time. when i go back and iso you, you answer my initial question about your reads with "my reads have been stated in thread." but i have to go back 13 iso posts to find anything resembling a read, and its merely you agreeing with someone elses read. you weren't currently voting anyone, and you called out a very small town block. in other words, you hadn't contributed much of anything, but you had been active asking questions and calling out very few town reads. so me asking for clarification of your reads is somehow scummy? even though i referenced exactly where my suspicion came from(your predecessor's voting pattern)?

Don, what did you mean by "letting me get spoon fed by scumtactics"?

figure it out.

[don_johnson]

titus:

looking back through the associative stuff in sven's iso and its hard to miss. this post:

Reading boro

People that look really really good based on it

Skull #120, 121, 154
Rainbow #539, 566, 612
Jacob Savage #446
Wake #475, 483, 494, 605
jmo #786
antihero #786
uct #786

People who look bad

rach #604, 786
evil #786
don # 786, 114

looks like I have been lumped into that "look bad" category just to keep his suspicions straight. 114 is a pure rvs type post response and 786 calls me out as a town read. not much reason for scumphil to do that to a buddy at that time. do you agree?

ABR: how do you feel about aptil today?

[don_johnson]

wake: my record is in my sig. all but two games are from this site. I am currently on a ridiculous win streak. I was at one point 16-29 as town. so doubt me all you want. my guess is you're eating a bullet as soon as scum is willing. its not in their best interest to tag you atm. you are sk or town and which one will become more and more obvious to everyone as time marches on. if you are town and that was your strategy then kudos. if you are sk, you're not going to win.

evil: I will flip town. tell me what information you will get. considering the votes on you elicited a response, I would say they were far from "horrible". but whatevz. answer my query please.

titus: I can't argue against stal. looking at Tcold's iso again and it sticks out even more. I would be very surprised if both ABR and Stal are scum, but i'm starting to think that's how it is. and that sucks cause ABR is one of my fave players of all time.

ABR: sorry bro.

unvote, vote: ABR

[don_johnson]

You had me as town yesterday DJ, and you started this day by saying that i am spoon fed by scum, indicating that i am town that follows scum. You are now opening up to be able to vote me, you are leaving that avaible yet voting someone else.

correct. I also had you as scum yesterday. I also had your predecessor as scum. I also had ABR as town yesterday. do you have something to say or are you just summarizing the game?

[don_johnson]

sven: how do you not follow my read progressions? how is my vote "opportunistic"? anyone can put a label on something, so please explain. you seem to be pointing out things that would be useful post flip. my top townreads are on the ABR wagon. I think you both should be lynched but i'd sooner start with him even if it goes against my gut because of evidence I see in the game state. you seem to be spending an awful lot of time slinging mud at me. where is your read on evil regals going?

[don_johnson]

titus: I am voting ABR. can you explain what you mean by your "distancing" comment?

[don_johnson]

sven: I can't expand on some of the things we are discussing. maybe later. we lynch wake today. see whose around in the morning.

unvote, vote: wake

if anyone has things to discuss, by all means. i'm good.

[don_johnson]

i don't see scum claiming like that. but whatevz. should we be suggesting investigations? cause I would go with ABR or Stal for starters.

[don_johnson]

how would you define "useless" speculation?

please clarify what you are doing here. the game is now stalled because of you.

[don_johnson]

holy fuckmuffins. there is no point in going on at this point until we confirm wakes alignment. the only way to do it is to lynch him. i'm not going back to sift through 50 pages of shit without alignment confirmation for the two of you. its
just
not
gonna
happen.
so if you want to wait for counterclaims, that's all well and good. wake still gets lynched before anyone does anymore "legwork". i'm with ABR on this. wake goes. ASAP.

[don_johnson]

i'm just saying its pointless, from my pov, to put any effort into reading and analyzing this game until we get this current matter settled. i'm all for everybody doing what they want here, but my time is valuable and I don't want to waste it. whoever told ABR he was scummy for wanting the lynch is wrong. that is a perfectly acceptable response to what's going on atm. you guys do what you want. I would rather lynch and move forward with a clear understanding of what needs to happen next. I had you as sk/vt. definitely not scum. but I am not and cannot be the least bit suspicious of lora's claim because from a scum perspective it makes no sense. a vt gambit? maybe, but risk/reward seems way off especially if you flip town. so whatevz. i'll stop posting and wait. i'm fine with that.

[don_johnson]

Don, you could actually skip these 3 pages, or if you happen to iso BS, jmo, Sven or Wake .. the last 3-4 posts. It's not rocket science.

i'm not following you. skipping 3 pages out of 60 does not save me a lot of time. i see no reason to put any effort into reading this game unless i wake up tomorrow morning without a bullet or stab wound.

[don_johnson]

it has nothing to do with whether or not anyone believes Lora. maybe you didn't see RBD's posts, but they explain it rather well. its not gullible to see what the optimal play here is.

[don_johnson]

again: wake, if you are town, this is it for you. instead of being angry at people who want to lynch you for perfectly legitimate, pro-town reasons, maybe you should be trying to contribute something useful. if you caught scum in Lora, you should be really happy, not trying to save yourself. you should be reading the thread to find out who Lora is connected to. but you're not. you're just whining.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: rachmarie

nice overreaction.

lora: thanks for killing all motivation I had for this game. i'll look into this later.

See?

stfu. I have been doubting you as scum, but that doesn't clear you from sk, and the way you just handled yourself does not help that situation. if you are town please take this with a grain of salt: you are extremely egocentric and you are not that good of a player.

So, let's lynch Loranthaceae. No real Town Cop would deliberately lie about me being guilty for shits and giggles. If the real Cop is out there, stay quiet please.

^^ case in point.

[don_johnson]

its an overreaction because when it comes down to brass tax its a non issue. its an open set-up. figuring out the claim is not going to be difficult and if we get a cc then we have confirmed scum one way or the other. other than pissing people off and killing some peoples motivation, there hasn't been any serious detriment to the game state. if anything, we are in a much better position at the moment.

[don_johnson]

RachMarie and JMO's reactions, without more, suggest town.

really? I will have to go back and read jmo, but I felt rm's reaction was forced and overly emotional as well as lacking any insight. both of them moved back to the possiblescumpile for me. honestly, if sven isn't mafia(which I don't think he is) then there's nothing to worry about. he and wake are very plausible as sk and thus

should

be taken out by mafia at some point. i don't think ABR is the right lynch and that's mostly gut. but here's a lynch pool for today:


Brian Skies
JacobSavage
jmo
RachMarie

i'm on the fence with aptil, but i need to reread day 1 to see. right now i think these four are more likely mafia than others. BS kind of skipped the whole cop claim area of the game and that doesn't sit well with me. i'm willing to lynch sven, ABR, or wake based on the associative tells and unpopularity and possible sk behavior, but i really think the sk issue is going to work itself out. and if wake/sven are town, then they will likely be nk'd due to it. no reason to waste a lynch.

[don_johnson]

*the

[don_johnson]

one innocent result is not going to break this game. no way does lora reveal their innocent unless said player is headed for lynch and lora is convinced they are not sk.

doubting the claim is stupid without a counterclaim.

doc protects lora. lora investigates the scummy scummy scummy evil regals.

we lynch from:

Brian Skies
JacobSavage
jmo
RachMarie

and all should be good. stop whining about the cop gambit. it is 100% unless there's a counterclaim. and if there's a counterclaim, we're still not lynching into a couple of claimed cops. no other way to play this. let's decide on a lynch. i'm fine with any of these four. or wake/sven, but preferably one of these four.

[don_johnson]

dj is awesome. people should listen to him more often. its sad, really....

[don_johnson]

wake won't live that long. if we follow my plan things will work out for the best. this is a large game. there is no rush. if we start doing this systematically we should be fine. we have a cop. doc is hidden. play follow the cop. the player soft-claiming cop is the first investigation. odds are in our favor. worst thing we can do is be disorganized.

[don_johnson]

dj is awesome. people should listen to him more often. its sad, really....

How can ABR be absent from your to-lynch list, and the check recommendation. I think you said something about his defense of Boro being to strong for scum. Is there anything else?

meh. i'm not going to stop ABR from being lynched, but I like him and I understand the lazy playstyle. if ABR is scum, I think they will eventually be caught. and by all means, you can check whoever you want. I just found ER's last post to be hugely scummy and think that coupled with the cop softclaim, that they are a better bet. my lynch list of four is just where I think we should go today. ABR, wake, and sven can all wait imo. all three fit the sk profile, where the list of four seem more like they may be part of a team with an agenda, if that makes any sense. trying to out your innocent result is scummy. plain and simple. being skeptical of an early cop claim without a counter in a 20 player game is scummy. what people think of your claim is irrelevant at this point, and imo, doubters and naysayers are putting those thoughts out there for a push against you at a later date. the fact is, if you are scum, you just outed yourself with the early claim. so why complain? there is no detriment to us with what you've done. only way a fiasco ensues is if you are VT. in which case, you're just playing terribly. imo, that is the least likely scenario.

p-edit: see? evil is working against town. you said it yourself: what if your inno is the doc? all your inno reveal does is give scum a target that won't be protected who is either town or sk. it only helps the scum win condition. evil is trying to sell it as pro town. and its just not. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

[don_johnson]

In a 20 player game the odds have to be really high for the innocent to be the doc.

same odds as it being the sk. odds of the inno being killed= 100%. scum kills them. hands down.

I'm also not working against the town. The giving scum a confirmed town WIFOMs both scum teams into maybe targeting that person which in the end cuts the night kill randomly from two people to maybe one. For all we know the confirmed town wouldn't die because the scum would think " oh we don't have to target the SK will" and then the SK does not.

herp derp. sk ain't killing an inno. this wifom's no one. chances of doc being killed increase.

Also if the inn does happen to be the SK then that's good for town because scum kills it and removes a threat for us.

sk has just as much motivation to scumhunt as town. sk poses no threat to town. i'm no math genius, but the odds of an sk winning a 20 player game are pretty close to nil. sell your fear mongering somewhere else.

you softclaimed cop. if you are cop you should have no issue with this plan. if you are town or sk, you should have no issue with this plan. your issue with this plan should only concern you if you are scum. one single innocent result in a game where there is an investigative immune sk and three living scum does not improve town's chances enough to outweigh the cons of such a maneuver.

[don_johnson]

sven, sk killing inno's is brainless. chances of sk win in a game this size are slim at best. I've never seen it.

[don_johnson]

sven, you also seemed to have missed the entire point of my post. hard to tell if you're trying to strawman here, or just being ignorant. you see, I don't play the game of mafia with the mindset "my opponents are idiots and will play stupid and make mistakes." I play with the mindset of "my opponents will always make the right move." it keeps me from being blindsided. inno's in this game are fodder for scumkills. it is way more optimal for sk to kill into unknowns. that's just common sense. so again, you leave me with having to wrestle as to whether or not you are stupid, or if you are scum. thankssomuch. in other news...

can we get back to the lynching?

mod: can we have a votecount?

[don_johnson]

sven, sk killing inno's is brainless. chances of sk win in a game this size are slim at best. I've never seen it.

describe to me the thought process you when avoiding the inno NK.

I will be here waiting.

confirmed inno does not clear anyone from being sk. therefore there is zero incentive for sk to target inno. common sense. now you explain why an sk would target an inno.

[don_johnson]

sven: sk is immune to investigation. inno is meaningless. you are ignoring the context of this game. what you are saying only makes sense depending on who the inno is on. right now, there are very few(if any) players who would be cleared of malfeasance with an inno result. use your brain. sk has no incentive to kill an inno because an inno can be lynched as sk just as easily as a non-inno. cop is here to find scum, not clear town. therefore scum has 100% incentive to kill inno. can we stop arguing?

So this game goes round and round , instead of moving forward .
@people not voting : Why have you not made up your mind yet ?

^^ tru dat.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote:ABR

looking at those wagons and half of my lynch pool is on JS. sorry albert.

[don_johnson]

skull: not sure if you wanted a response, but I don't have any issue with a "healthy" dose of skepticism. I don't find it healthy, however, when people attempt to fear monger and cast a pall of paranoia over us in the face of evidence which leads to a logical conclusion. we can debate this for hours. we have an uncounterclaimed cop. there is zero evidence to suggest that Lora is not who he says he is. its kind of like saying "global warming is a myth". until we find evidence that suggests otherwise, logical people should accept this as fact. naysayers are just pushing an agenda.

[don_johnson]

Don, let's not make this political. I understood your point, but there's really no need for a political debate. Why are you apologizing to ABR? I find that odd.

you seem so intelligent, and then you post things like this. please pay attention. what is odd about being courteous to someone you enjoy playing with?

skull: not sure if you wanted a response, but I don't have any issue with a "healthy" dose of skepticism. I don't find it healthy, however, when people attempt to fear monger and cast a pall of paranoia over us in the face of evidence which leads to a logical conclusion.

Is this what you think I was trying to do?

no.

slips are a horrible form of scumhunting. it assumes that scum is playing sub optimally. please stop. no one "slips".

[don_johnson]

that's funny, cause that's not what it says.

[don_johnson]

He's been on the site for a long time, so for those of you who have played with him before, could we please get a few words on how this fits with his meta?

no. its not a scumtell at all. that's what I have been trying to say. i'm not big into "meta" cases or defenses, but ABR is playing according to what I know of them. I don't really ever remember ABR being very verbose. one of the reasons I like them.

[don_johnson]

titus: please answer the question.

[don_johnson]

what is odd about being courteous to someone you enjoy playing with?

[don_johnson]

I agree evil should be part of the investigation pool, but calling the investigation is anti-town, so let's just leave that be. titus, answer the question.

everyone else: vote and give a reason. let's start focusing these wagons.

[don_johnson]

titus, you said this:

Why are you apologizing to ABR? I find that odd.

I asked you this:

what is odd about being courteous to someone you enjoy playing with?

[don_johnson]

That's not being courteous. That's being weird. There is absolutely no reason to apologize for a vote. This game isn't taken personally by voting.

oh. I see. so you're going to avoid the question based on semantics. I have made it clear throughout this game that I like albert as a player. feeling "sorry" for moving my vote to his wagon is being courteous. so whatevz. if you would like to address what is weird about it, go ahead. I would love to hear you ramble down that path. so let's rephrase the question:

why is it weird? and what does it imply to you(because it obviously implies something or you wouldn't mention it)?

[don_johnson]

please follow your thought through to its completion. atm, I feel like you are mudslinging. for all intents and purposes I consider ABR a "buddy". I like him as a player. that was made clear. I also don't think he is the best lynch today. that was also made crystal clear. are you implying that I am scumbuddies with ABR? really? i'm pretty sure you are smarter than that...

[don_johnson]

I've suspected it. Then you do something town so I'm not sure. I cannot really tell. I don't like to do analysis preflip but you also have the same stink don't lynch Borophil that both Stal and ABR have.

yeah, I get that, but what you are implying is not that I am scum with bp. you are implying I am scum with ABR

and

bp, which is kind silly. both ABR and I are experienced players, pushing in tandem against a day 1 scum lynch is sub-optimal. something you might expect from newbscum, but not anyone with any type of experience. am I to understand you are scumbuddies with RM because of your courteousness in her direction? doesn't that sound silly? come on now, bring back the logical townie titus I was beginning to like. there is a chance ABR is scum here, but your line of thinking and your attack on me simply being friendly with someone I enjoy playing with is misguided and could be construed as scummy. i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, because I don't think you thought that all the way through. but whatevz, we'll get the ABR flip soon enough.

[don_johnson]

skull: I don't think ABR and stal are scum together, but it is likely that one may be. That said, they could both be town, and literally either could be sk. so i'm not going to pigeonhole myself into a read at this time, but ABRtown would definitely raise the suspicion level on stal. I can't remember a time when I have seen scum work so hard together on protecting a buddy from a day 1 lynch, so yeah. I don't think its going to be so cut and dry. wakes actions here are pretty scummy in and of themselves, but really fit the sk profile as well. but he may just be VI. if I were scum i'd be killing him pretty soon, unless ABR is scum, in which case scum may need to keep him around a bit longer. an ABR town flip may lean that read toward scum over sk. but I guess we'll see. at 70 pages I think we have plenty of garbage to sift through. if we get a scum down with this lynch or overnight, it may pay to start policy lynching some of our lurkers. ah, decisions, decisions. hope to see you in the morning.

titus: i'm not gonna argue the point with you. it seems to be more a semantics type argument anyway. if ABR flips scum then we are in a pretty good position, so if you want to bring the heat my way i'm fine with that. what I would do and not do as scum is wifom. we should get at least one more flip tonight, so if we are here in the morning there should be more light shed on all of this.

wake: you're funny.

[don_johnson]

ABR town flip may lean that read toward scum over sk.

hm. the more i'm looking at this I would almost flip this thought. that turnaround and hammer looks an awful lot like a guy running to catch the bus.

[don_johnson]

er's crumbs were not cop specific, so I don't see the confusion over that kill, and the people discussing it immediately jump up my scumlist which damn near puts sven at the top(which he wasn't until he started posting today). I have been mildly suspicious of titus because of some of our back and forth, but I don't think they are scum. my list is still where it was yesterday plus sven for what I consideration his overreaction to the nk's. my guess on wake is that the kill was either a) personally motivated, b) random, or c) that sk was pretty high on wakes suspicion list. c being most likely followed by a then b. if we didn't have a guilty I would be voting rach/js/sven. jmo is a tougher read atm. the guilty is not on me.

If loran has no guilty we hardcharge aptil

case?

[don_johnson]

I disagree. ER crumbed power(cop was claimed), and was also a potential investigation target. good scum kill imo. sk kill can be wifomed in every direction. with 14 alive, sk has a lot of work to do to achieve victory so its kind of pointless to think or worry about atm. our sk could have been scumhunting as well. waste of time to overanalyze imo.

[don_johnson]

common sense is an amazing attribute.

[don_johnson]

unless of course you apply common sense, which says scum knows er is town. scum knows er breadcrumbed a pr. and scum knows er was likely to be investigated. so yes. I agree with you that if you ignore the huge three reasons scum had to kill er, then you can write it off as "bad play". but of course, ignoring common sense is how people get hit by trains, break their necks cleaning gutters, and accidentally feeding their dogs rat poison.

[don_johnson]

sven, you've lost me. good luck with that.

antihero: any reasons?

[don_johnson]

loran said he had a guilty yesterday too.

[don_johnson]

good deal. don't forget about titus.

sven: I kinda noticed a similar thing with titus and his lurker reads. the read on rach is terrible.

[don_johnson]

are we in a rush? kind of different than in the past...

[don_johnson]

I am uncomfortable with titus' blatant defense of RM. i'm gonna go back and reread some of day 1 and see if anything jumps out.

[don_johnson]

i'm not scum. my issue with titus is based off of his "town" read on rm due to her rl issues. I do not know either of them in rl so how am I supposed to guage the veracity of all of that? whatevz. titus gave rm a pass(not only a pass, but a town read) because of rl issues that may or may not be real. now you guys are going to give titus a pass for the same shit? ok. please explain what connects me to rm.

secondly, I don't get what uct is saying. going off skulltown? I've had skull in the town pile since day 1 due to the breadcrumb I picked up then. sometimes I feel like I am the only one with any common sense in this game. how does skulltown make djscum? because we had an argument? if dj was scum, skull would have died night 1.

DJ's attack on Titus is atrocious; her defense of RachMarie at a positively hopeless time is rather unlikely to come from scum with the current meta.

can you explain this? what are you referring to with "the current meta"? I was right about rm. titus ignored it based on rl issues, and not only that, but gave her a town read. I see that as a pretty concrete connection to flipped scum that really shouldn't be ignored.

i'll try and cover some of this when I reread, but I don't recall a whole lot of connections to rm other than titus' commitment to her defense. evidence is evidence.

[don_johnson]

also, please note titus' pre emptive omgus. their reasoning for their vote is "dj is tying me to known scum." which is like saying nothing. the whole idea of the game is to find scum partners, so everyone is trying to tie their suspects to scum. my suspicion is well warranted even if its not accurate, portraying it as anything but is scummy. FoS to maenara unless I get a better explanation. my reads have been pretty good this game.

[don_johnson]

maenara: I think I understand what you are referring to now that I reread your post, but you do realize that titus started his defense long before the rm situation was "hopeless"?

[don_johnson]

post 357: "I stepped away from the game for a few days because I was getting really frustrated and was very close to saying something that would almost assuredly get me nightkilled." -sd

^^ skull and I had been arguing, I didn't agree with any of his defenses, and had he not posted this I would not have relented. but I took this as meaning "i'm a pr and we can't afford to get me nk'd". I dropped my suspicion and had skull as top town read thereafter. i tried not to draw too much attention to it and i think skull was aware of it too. if you notice, our disputes ended pretty much wholesale after this.

[don_johnson]

he didn't seem scummy to me. his initial reaction to me put him in my townpile and i didn't see anything on day 1 to move him out of it.

[don_johnson]

BoroPhil - 11 - Antihero, Skelda, Titus, Skullduggery, Loranthaceae, mastin2, Rainbowdash, Evil Regals, Maenara, Svenskt Stål, don_johnson

unknowns here: antihero, titus, maenara

everyone else is guaranteed not scum. you can call me avariable if you like, but i don't see how you would think i am connected to either of the flipped scum. RBD had an early theory that maenara was bussing, but they would have to rehash that, cause i thought maenara's push was town. that leaves antihero and titus. at least one, if not both, make sense as scum here. although i will have to go back and read titus' and antihero's jump on the wagon. i don't recall when or why they got on. meh.

RBD: care to rehash your maenarascum theory or is that dead?

[don_johnson]

in iso, antihero has some weird early interactions with both flipped scum. votes BP with zero reasoning seemingly piggybacking RBD's case. kind of odd.

in iso, titus is early sk hunting, with soft defense of antihero. "I am willing to switch to BP to get a lynch off. His behavior is off." - not much before this i can see when skimming. vote comes a bit later in defense of BP's attack on RBD? meh. titus also asks sven and myself for opinions on BP. maybe trying to set up connections that aren't there. tius leaves the scum wagon to try and push sven. moves back to the scum wagon later, calling the cop scum.

[don_johnson]

why maenara?

I have to go to work, so i'll try and get back later tonight or tomorrow AM.

antihero: thoughts please...

[don_johnson]

titus: it should be painfully obvious I am not scum. please give us some thoughts on other players.

rbd: what are your thoughts on titus?

more input would be great from everyone. dead game is dead.

[don_johnson]

uct: please pay attention. I am clearly not scum.

maenara: titus' defense of RM was going on for a long time, not just when she was at risk of a guilty. plus, while defending under risk of a guilty, titus creates the situation you are locking into. but whatevz.

vote: brianskies

do something. anything.

[don_johnson]

Sven, the reason for aptil is why it looks like Don has a point. Even then, your biggest King of the World target is a lurker. Your posts seem to have the goal of not antagonizing. The one person you should want to lynch is a scum read someone you'd want to have information on. For instance, mine would be Wake because I think he's the SK if I'm in a self-centric mood.

If I was feeling more community minded, I'd probably do BoroPhil or Loran.

Yours seem to be self-centered with no real evidence to back them up.

yup.

maenara: if you iso titus you will find her calling RM town from very early on.

[don_johnson]

that was on day 1, sister.

[don_johnson]

DJ, yes that was on day 1. Before Loran outed as the cop. I never said Liran was scum after outing as cop. I just believed she was gambiting. You seem hellbent on misrepping me, so my vote stays.

a) its not a misrep. timestamps don't change alignments/roles etc. you had the cop on your lynch list with confirmed scum while you were pushing an innocent. these are facts. no misrep.
b) you seem to be ignoring pertinent information regarding my alignment. why is that?

BS, you need to contribute or go on vla. It is clear you missed rbd is conftown unless you think Loran was gambiting. I cannot tell if your mirroring language is because if site meta, buddying or just low post count. I need more to analyze.

a) RBD is not conftown. she is confnotmafia. just like sven, and just like me.
b) even BS, who seems to be pretty distant from this thread, can see the obvious connection between my play and my alignment. why do you continue to ignore it?

if you think uct or JS are good votes, then maybe you should be pursuing them. they are not confinnocent. the fact that I picked up the pr breadcrumb on day 1(and the fact that mine and skull's play reflects the acknowledgement of said crumb) is an obvious indicator that I am not mafia. so from anyone elses pov in this game I can be either town or sk. though an sk lynch isn't a terrible thing, mafia is our first and foremost priority. mafia benefits from skhunting. an sklynch is "meh" from the townie pov. by pushing my lynch(as I can only be town or sk), you are making it more obvious that you are, in fact, scum. enjoy your noose.

unvote, vote:titus

if anyone needs me to explain this, just ask.

BS: this does not get you off the hook for content, but you are obviously paying enough attention to see whats beneficial to town.

RBD: your desire for my death is baffling for similar reasons mentioned above, except that you are 100% not mafia. and if you were sk, you would not be serving yourself well by pushing the lynch of another player who could be pegged as sk. so my guess for you is misguided town. which is disappointing, because you are usually better. :/

[don_johnson]

Its arguably a fine move for the SK to not kill the doctor.

agreed.

however, no mafia worth any amount of salt passes up the opportunity to kill a pr in this particular set up. no way do scum partners hold up that nk.

especially

not once Loran claimed. if you want to make a a case for djsk, then by all means, but djmafia is impossible. say it with me now... "impossible".

when you accept that, how do you feel about titus?

[don_johnson]

are you talking to me? I didn't see a crumb from you. I knew skull was pr from day one. if you read our conversations its pretty evident. if you are town, you need to follow your thought process to conclusion here. if I was scum skull would most likely have died night one. if not then, skull would have 100% been the nk night 2. neither of those things happened.

rbd could pretty easily be sk. i'm hoping not, though. I think it is more likely that our sk is among the inactives. but that is neither here nor there. your preoccupation with sk is telling more and more as this game drags on. we just lost our cop so it is way more important to be rooting out the scum. try again.

[don_johnson]

nothing is out of context. I didn't say you are sk hunting. I said your preoccupation with the sk is telling.

why is rbd not sk? why is that even a relevant point at this time? if you aren't sk hunting it should be of no consequence.

um. you keep ignoring the evidence. let's rehash:

I picked up a crumb from skullduggery on day 1. both her and I acknowledged said crumb. fact fact fact. if you think I am mafia, then why would I have left skull alive night 1? night 2? couldn't have happened.

you are deflecting the argument. focusing on semantics and irrelevant opinions. again: enjoy your noose.

[don_johnson]

if I could lynch all of you, this would be the order:

Titus
uctriton00
Antihero
aptil
JacobSavage
Brian Skies
jmo16mla
Svenskt Stål
Maenara
Rainbowdash
Loranthaceae

pretty sure by the time I got to Skies, this game would be over, but sk may be a tough find. I see two strategies for sk, one lurking, one not lurking. my money's on lurking. pretty sure scum are titus/uct. antihero is really a variable here as well due to their early play and subsequent disappearing act.

[don_johnson]

obviously I wouldn't be lynching lora. I could have cut them out. but meh. you get the idea.

[don_johnson]

jmo: confirmed means "not mafia". if you want to switch maenara and sven to make yourself feel better, you can, but I don't think we'd get that far down the list and still be playing. not sure if you are "playing dumb" here or what, but you just moved up past Brianskies. congrats.

[don_johnson]

how much of a shit do you give about moving up my list?

[don_johnson]

I picked up a crumb from skullduggery on day 1. both her and I acknowledged said crumb. fact fact fact. if you think I am mafia, then why would I have left skull alive night 1? night 2? couldn't have happened.

Well, let's just be realistic about this, it's still possible you figured it to be a fake crumb. The wifom leaves a strong probability that a doc wouldn't leave such an obvious crumb and that Skull was merely a VT avoiding to be lynched without the shitstorm of a fake-claim and baiting an NK.

anything is possible. we have to work with what is more likely. skull's crumb was not doc specific and no one else seemed to notice it at the time. as scum I could have blown it up a bit to draw attention to it, or I could have shot him night 1. maybe as scum I don't shoot night 1 thinking he might be cop with doc protection, but once loran claims, no way do I not shoot skull night 2. this is a silly argument. do we really need to perpetuate it?

did you really think I was playing dumb about the investigations though?

I have no idea. considering this is an open set-up with few mechanics, I think its pretty unbelievable that someone would forget one of those mechanics when trying to decipher alignments. you are not currently a suspect imo. i'm pretty sure scum is uct/titus. I will have to reevaluate everyone else if one of those two doesn't flip scum.

unvote, vote: uctitronwhateveryournameis

[don_johnson]

quiet, scum.

AA9: your slot doesn't really have any heat on it. scumtitus may want you to think that, but just give us your thoughts so we can move forward.

uct: thanks for the input. maybe it will be helpful. of my titus/uct scumreads you are definitely the weaker of the two. Aptil is an enigma for me, but if you can keep commenting for us, maybe we can work something out. personally, I think titus needs to go A#1. but we'll see. AA9 may give us some new perspective. i'm not sure if any of us have the wherewithal to go back and read 80+ pages atm.

[don_johnson]

I can get with that. but i'd prefer:

vote:titus

people should really listen to me more often.

[don_johnson]

did I mention that titus is probably scum?

[don_johnson]

ok. just checking. cause it seems like no one is paying attention.

[don_johnson]

because of his associations to known flipped scum and because he spent the whole of yesterday pushing someone who is very obviously not scum.

[don_johnson]

jmo: you're either scum with titus or you're not paying attention.

[don_johnson]

jmo: you're either scum with titus or you're not paying attention.

jmo is scum, but pairing him with Titus makes no sense. Look at my data post; they're quite possibly the most diametrically opposed players in the game. On day 5, any two scum would have

something

linking them together.

i'll check it out. my jmoscum was in reference to his inability to grasp what I said about titus. it seemed either willful ignorance or lack of attention.

[don_johnson]

That you've been calling Titus scum for the past few days.. Yes. I've seen it.

is this directed at me? its been today and yesterday if it is. I had titus as probtown before that. the RM flip put things into perspective for me. I really don't know why everyone is giving titus such a pass.

[don_johnson]

only titus and sven are on 4 lynch wagons according to your data. sven is not mafia. imo, that raises the possibility that titus is. also, can we look back and see titus in relation to the RM wagon? in any case, I don't see how your data eliminates pairings.

[don_johnson]

Stal, really you're still hung up on my RM having real life issues comments. Good lord. I have been trying to meet up with RM offsite and it falls through. That is why I knew that. It wasn't meant to be ZOMG RM is town.

did stal say something about that? I must have missed it.

[don_johnson]

I'm coasting? I already solved the game. I gave you my list. I have explained why titus is scum. I gave my top candidates for sk. I have been, arguably, one of the more active scumhunters in this game. who do I trust? no one tbh, but I make a point of not letting my paranoia get in the way of logic. paranoia will destroy ya. if you have any more specific questions I would be happy to answer them, but saying I'm "coasting" is a bit ironic coming from you.

maenara: that makes it a bit more clear. I would think the behavior you are describing is more apt to come from an sk than mafia, though. I'd rather lynch mafia suspects first. lynching an sk may actually help mafia at this point.

[don_johnson]

sven: we're 89 pages in. please don't replace out.

[don_johnson]

I guess leashing would work when the kill descriptions differ between mafia/SK. How's this: jmo claims SK or gets lynched, and if he is SK, we direct his kills, then lynch him when the mafia's dead and gone? That way, mafia has to waste their kill on him if they want a chance to survive, and we still get a chance of cleaning the table if we manage to hit mafia today and with the directed night-kill.

meh. fine with me. I'd still prefer the titus lynch. whether or not an sk is going to allow you to direct their kills is a variable so I don't see how this plan works. I think I would try this with anyone who claimed sk as it is makes the most sense. you're certainly not guaranteed a directed kill, but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

AA9 is not reading town. I will have to revisiut my opinion on Brianskies. I think there was a couple things I liked about them...

jmo: please claim.

sven: this emotional outburst has you confirmed in my book. do not go. let's get this done.

[don_johnson]

titus: an sk claim might stay jmo's execution. it is something maenara and I discussed. that's what that is about.

jmo: so you are voting titus with me, but your latest post seems to be attempting to implicate maenara and myself. looks a little desperate. you have not been a scum read of mine, but maenara's case of "indifference" is pretty convincing for sk. couple that with this latest turn, and I don't see how I can defense your lynch. no one seems to be going for the titus case. if you are scum, I would have to rethink my titus case.

vote: jmo

nobody hammer. let's get that claim.

[don_johnson]

jmo: your response to me makes no sense.

titus: you are so obvscum to me that its ridiculous. there is no downside to leashing sk at this point. sk is gunning for scum and scum is gunning for sk. if claiming sk is jmo's only chance for survival, then one of three things happen. 1) jmo claims sk but is town. 2) jmo claims sk but is scum. 3) jmo claims sk and is sk.

1) jmo does not get lynched. scum nk's him, elminating a town liability but not wasting a lynch. if we run someone else up and get an sk counterclaim, then we will likely believe we have two scum(anti-town faction) caught, as a townie is unlikely to cc sk, however, jmo's alignment could very well be determined through the resulting discussion if he is in fact town.

2) real sk is likely to target jmo for nk at some point, or will be over the top in trying to get jmo lynched. this also applies to scenario one. in fact, titus' insistence to lynch jmo regardless of claim is a HUGE scumtell imo. a jmo mafiaflip would obviously dispel my scumtitus theory, but at this point I believe more likely than not that jmo is either sk or town. unlikely to be scum. so #2 kind of leads into number 3.

3) jmo lives, scum nk's him, ridding town of the sk. chance of lynching mafia today increases, jmo most likely takes a shot at scum at night, because sk's usually don't try and assist mafia. a cc means we have caught scum. etc. if jmo is in fact sk, then mafia will be urgently trying to get him lynched to avoid getting stabbed at night.

if jmo is town or sk. titus is most assuredly scum.

can we lynch titus first, assume jmo is sk and ask him to stab JS/Aptil/AA9?

I don't see a down side.

[don_johnson]

that may be a little confusing, but I think you should be able to get the point. if jmo is scum or town claiming sk, sk will be gunning for him. if jmo is sk or town claiming sk, scum will be gunning for him.

[don_johnson]

that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. your basically saying we should avoid "thinking" and just lynch an anti-town player. our goal is to win. by not speculating on what scum and sk will or will not do, we allow them to aid in making our decisions which increases their individual chances of winning. which is pretty fucking anti-town. so by your own thought process, we should be lynching you.

unvote, vote:titus

jmo, if you are sk, stab into aptil/JS/AA9/antihero, k?

now would you all just please for the love of all that is holy, please please please please please just listen to me?

[don_johnson]

JS, your math is wrong and does not take into account the obvious variables. see below.

titus: your insistence on sk hunting makes it obvious you are scum. your ties to rachmarie which began long before she started airing her personal problems and continued for the duration of this game, make it obvious you are a likely partner. jmo's behavior is much more sk-like than mafia-like. maenara's inability to flex on that lynch is mildly suspicious, but his agreement to not lynch with an sk claim makes perfect sense. by lynching the sk, town is doing the mafia's dirty work and making a mafia win way more accessible. if we lynch mafia, town's chances of winning increase exponentially due to the near certainty of a crosskill or at the very least, one anti-town faction taking care of the other at night. thus leaving town only one lynch to win. there is no misrep here. you are asking us to ignore useful thought processes. I am not nor have been "hell-bent" on not lynching jmo. in fact, I placed him to L-1 and left him there long enough for anyone to hammer. his "I may be the sk" claim is good enough for me to proceed with lynching more likely mafia candidates: namely you.

[don_johnson]

its not a misrep. you just said it yourself. but whatevz.

you still have not addressed the breadcrumb issue which should be evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am not mafia. seriously, why do you keep ignoring the interaction with me and skull, the breadcrumb, and the obvious mutual understanding.

hint: its because you are scum. you are pushing jmo over me because you think he's the sk, and by lynching the sk, you can save your nightkills for townie players like me, maenara, and sven. sorry, but I can't let that happen.

Maenara: please address this situation. your inflexibility here is increasing my paranoia about you, and I have been really getting into the idea of you me and sven as a fantastic town core to move forward here. if we lynch the sk, we are giving scum the upper hand in a big way.

[don_johnson]

that sucks.

aptil: what do you think of titus continually ignoring the evidence regarding my interactions with skull?

[don_johnson]

What evidence? I don't ignore anything.

except of course, the evidence which completely debunks your djscum theory and vote. you know, the evidence you keep choosing not to respond to. that evidence.

UNVOTE: whoever I'm voting pending a catch up of some sort

I'll be reading things over, likely back to front, but if anyone wants me to look at/address/answer anything in particular, let me know.

Pay attention to everyone except me.

ROFL.

lets have pengiun decide who she wants to vote.

How about you start doing the same?

QFT.

welcome penguin. your slot is about as confirmed town as it gets in this set-up barring the possession of a pr. your opinion will be valued. don't let these stooges distract you.

[don_johnson]

titus: where are your breadcrumbs? please produce them. if you'd been paying attention you would have already seen the evidence I produced. I caught a breadcrumb on day. skull acknowledged that I caught it and her demeanor towards me changed significantly in light of it. you act like you have been paying attention, but you're missing one very glaring sequence of events which shows rather definitively that I cannot be mafia. do you even have a case on me? again, please produce your breadcrumbs.

[don_johnson]

@Wake, you are one of the biggest posters. You don't get to make a huge mess and then claim it is messy.

@All, Rach has almost been a universal lurker due to various RL issues she has had. Lurking for her is a null tell. Not a town tell. Not a scum tell. Just a fact of life. I'd check her if

I

was the cop just to get that out of the way. I don't think Rach is scum just due to the

am

ount of scuminess present in

the

thread, but it would be good to just clear that.

@

Doc

, do not be stupid. Heal the cop.

Look at all the funny bold and italics.

It spells. I am the Doc.

ROFL. you breadcrumbed in post 1609. tell me titus, what was happening at that stage of the game? you do realize skull breadcrumbed on day 1? right? and that I acknowledged it to skull, and then skull and my's relationship changed distinctly? in other words you breadcrumbed late. looks more like scum setting up a cc than town trying to draw a nk. had you breadcrumbed this early, it would have made more sense.

You don't get to burden shift. If you think there's something that clears you prove it.

um. already have. several times. I have explained where and when, even pulled a quote. what are you missing?

I have been yelling that you are scum based on your voting pattern, defenses and OMGUS for awhile.

omgus? where was that? and what exactly is scummy about my voting pattern? only scum I defended was BP, and that was hardly a defense, just a matter of opinion. your case is weak. it also IGFUCKINores the conversation between me and skull, the mutual acknowledgement of a breadcrumb, and the attitude shift.

if you are town this game I may have to eat my hat. you are acting like you are paying attention, but you are pulling shit so far out of left field and playing dumb regarding this case that I just can't believe you to be town. why didn't you talk about your breadcrumb any earlier? can you place your breadcrumb incontext(i.e. what was going on at the time?) and then explain how much time passed before you revealed your crumb and why you revealed your crumb?

[don_johnson]

titus: if I was scum skull would have been dead night 1. at the very least she would have been dead night 2. I could understand your suspicions if you pushing a possible skcase, but your insistence that I am part of the mafia is what is completely asinine and misguided. that is why it is obvious to me that you are scum. you know you can't push the skcase because its not the correct lynch, so you are adjusting your "belief" and claiming djmafia. sorry, but if you think I am sk, you and your buddy will have to shoot me in the night. you are not going to convince town to do your dirty work. the fact that you are trying to, is what makes it very obvious that you are mafia. couple that with your super defense of RM from day 1 onward, and it becomes even more obvious.

[don_johnson]

ZOMG, you thought someone was town because they crumbed. Guess you're town now DJ. No.

nice misrep of events. yes, I thought her crumb indicated some level of towniness. if pr's had been outed later and she was not one of them, it would have brought my suspicion back to her. but it was the way it came out. what makes it obvious that I am not scum in not what id do or what I thought. its what I didn't do. a) I didn't draw unnecessary attention to the crumb. the issue was handled discreetly and it wasn't brought up again until after skull was killed. b) skull continued to draw breath each night even after a cop claim was on the table. there is no reasonable explanation to explain either of these things that involves dj as part of the mafia team. so your continued persistence of pushing this matter is suspicious. add to that, your own crumb came at a time when a doc was not outed in any way. your crumb came over 1000 posts into the game. it could be interpreted as scum laying grounds for a fakeclaim, or scum trying to draw out a doc claim just as easily at it could be interpreted as a townie trying to draw an nk. so your action is effectively null. however, when you couple it with your continued trumpeting of RM's towniness that began on day 1, it could easily be interpreted as suspicious. you are pushing a case against me that involves an extremely far fetched "scum strategy". one that would not be beneficial to scum in an open set-up such as this.

please explain why a vanilla scum team who has a member lynched on day 1, would allow a town pr to survive night one. go on. explain it.

[don_johnson]

in other words, you threw BP under the bus once you realized he was going to be lynched.

how you guys have titus as a townread is beyond me. i'll compromise, but I really want titus strung up. that viewpoint hasn't changed.

jmo: wow us.

aptil, JS, AA9. your votes are doing nothing. none of you are actively pursuing your lynches, so you need to move to one of our two wagons and explain why. if you want to campaign for your wagons, you're going to have to work harder.

[don_johnson]

thanks, pen. if jmo does flip scum it certainly means I could be wrong on titus.

unvote, vote: jmo

good luck tonight.

[don_johnson]

I get the stabbing, but why scum would not target PA is a bit interesting. I am still pretty set on our town core of maenara/me/PA. PA simply can't be scum, and I highly doubt sk. and maenara hasn't read like sk, though I guess its a possibility, but certainly doesn't read like scum.

aptil, antihero, JS, AA9: could be either scum or sk? I think someone posted some good insight yesterday that may thin this group. i'll see if I can find it. standard wagon analysis POE from yesterday would put antihero as more likely mafia.

numbers wise we are at 3 anti-town to four town, correct? I think it is much more imperative to find mafia atm and with Titus cleared I think I'm going back to the drawing board. hm.

was anyone vehemently defending jmo yesterday?

[don_johnson]

well, odds of overlapping targets or crosskills is increasing, so there's that. didn't foresee the kingmaker scenario. it makes no sense that you are alive right now. but I'm glad that you are. I need to reread your posting yesterday. we really need to get input from our lynch pool. do you think maenara could be sk? tbh, if they are, I'd rather they win than an incompetent scum team. I'm kind of willing to just bet mae is town here. I don't think an sk would be putting themselves out there and am more inclined to think one of our lurkers is holding that card.

[don_johnson]

quick iso of JS makes me think he is one of the mafia.

of course, reading antihero quick leaves the same impression, but I see them as more likely pair with AA9. which contradicts the JS read.

antihero isn't bad, but the lurking allows them to keep their reads consistent. and their reads were wrong. ugh.

p-edit: I'm betting on you and mae. if one of you is sk/scum, then I'm giving up.

mae: where you at?

[don_johnson]

fuck. I'm getting paranoid. I forgot maenara replaced TNE.

I think antihero is 100% anti-town. I'm making him my default lynch. aptil is gut town after iso. AA9 makes more sense as a partner if antihero is mafia, but there could be a link to maenara there too.

fuckity fuck.

fuck.

[don_johnson]

I really hate that this game is so long.

[don_johnson]

AA9/antihero for mafia.

JS for sk.

vote: jacobsavage

its the only thing that truly makes sense to me atm.

mae: get in here and reconvince me of your towniness.

[don_johnson]

bah.

unvote

now I just convinced myself that js is mafia.

i'll address this in the morning with some fresh coffee.

can my townies please put forth some effort?

[don_johnson]

mae: I think you are needing to work on your reading comprehension. my tone is pretty consistent with yesterday. I don't think its good gameplay to succumb to paranoia in the late stages of mafia games. that's kind of the opposite of hopelessness. but whatevz.

aptil: the more I look through antihero the more they read mafia. the pairing with mae is certainly a possibility, but AA9 works as well. your pick for sk is wrong. lynching mafia isn't going to be ideal today, so we need to work that out. I have already laid out my sk theory so I'd like to see yours. also, please answer mae's question.

[don_johnson]

way to out yourself.

vote: Jacob savage

I think I had this right last night. aptil, take a look at the AA9/antihero connection please.

p-edit: mae, nope.

[don_johnson]

Tone completely different from yesterday, way too many comments on night kill interaction between mafia and SK, far too happy to go along with leashing jmo yesterday.

not sure what "tone" you are referring to. "leashing" sk is a prudent discussion to have at that point in a game. not sure where you get "happy" out of it.

Pretty damn sure he was expecting jmo to survive, follow the directions of town's second vote, thus further implicating jmo (Of course, he was one of the most audible townies, so he'd be mostly in control of the vote anyhow, and would even get to get other people's feedback on it; he did want to hit mafia, after all).

I voted jmo. so whatevz.

"mae"] He stabbed Titus, expecting the mafia to do the sensible thing and kill the confirmed townie (just listen to his constant frustration with the "incompetence" of the mafia team - not a very appropriate sentiment for a townie, methinks?), ignoring the fact that to the rest of us, Penguin isn't 100% confirmed.

PA is 100% confirmed imo. its common sense. not sure where you get "frustration".

He was hella suspicious of Titus yesterday, too, which fits perfectly with the fact that he stabbed her; in this meta, nightkilling the person you were gunning for during the day has become so very un-scummy that it's gone full circle and become the thing for scum to do, once more.

^^ interesting theory. works both ways. so whatevz.

Truth be told, I was suspicious yesterday, too. So why was I so adamant that we lynch jmo? Well, duh, he was just as bad (seriously, begging for a lynch, just freaking read his posts), and it wasn't as if I was

sure

about DJ. This way, the only risk we took was losing jmo, and frankly, not a big loss. And most of the people suspicious of DJ, Titus (the apparent leader of the wagon, who'd've thunk) aside, seem to have survived.

there is really no case here. good luck on getting another double kill.

Yep, we be nailing this one.

no. you're pretty much screwed.

[don_johnson]

ya know what? a mislynch will encourage a crosskill. I think that's our best bet.

unvote, vote: don_johnson

PA and aptil: good luck.

[don_johnson]

AH/AA9

JS: kill one of those two. its your only hope.

town: mae/aptil/PA. good luck guys.

[don_johnson]

no worries. we got this. you guys just need to pay attention tomorrow. there should be at least one crosskill, if not two. this is our best chance aside from lynching JS, and being put to L-2 by two townies left me little chance to get out of that predicament.

[don_johnson]

gg scum. mae, you were so cooperative with me at first. I really thought you were town.

I think I said this in the dead qt: I didn't "give up". I went all in. the self vote was in hopes that "townmae" would rescind his vote. I gambled and lost. I could have not self voted, but it didn't look like there were too many other ways to prevent my lynch if I kept fighting like hell.