Open 546: Fire and Ice (Game Over)

[fontisian]

Hi. I'm around post 65 and catching up. Initial thoughts are that I want Gooner and Zekrom dead.

Information about me: I have 25 completed games on various sites, along with one ongoing. This is my first game on the site and I think I've only played with Titus before. If you have any specific questions for me while I'm catching up, go ahead and ask.

[fontisian]

mastin2's post 70 is my new favorite thing.

[fontisian]

Caught up.

In other news Gooner would really like it if people actually explained their votes properly rather than throwing out unexplained votes. It makes it so much easier for us to read you and for you to read other people and it creates a town environment which makes it easy for the scumbags to slip up.

By the way, this is a two-team Mafia game which is going to make it harder to catch scum. Normally one catches scum by looking for people who aren't scumhunting or who seem to know people's alignments. In this game though it's far easier for the scum to scumhunt because they can actually honestly scumhunt, they don't have to fake it in this game.

Gooner could be scum, too--I did get a town vibe from him, but it felt like it could be the vibe from a scum player scumhunting.

Not sure what's so bad about random questions. I've always felt they're more useful than random votes for moving the game forward as quickly as possible.

Moreover could your statement on me be any more fence-sitty? He could be scum scumhunting or town scumhunting? I expect more from the legendary mastin.
VOTE: mastin

Found scum.
VOTE: Gooner

mastin2: What about Dry-fit's posts have you reading him as town? I had the opposite reaction to 144 and 146.

In other news, I don't understand the jklash wagon and the Titus wagon is thoroughly meh.

[fontisian]

Hi fontisian I guess I'll ask you a question so you can feel noticed. What is your overall read on me?

Lean scum. I really didn't like the way you pressured people in post 144 and then finished up the post by saying you had no scum reads. The word choice of "no one really

seems

scummy" was also bad.

why is the titus wagon 'meh' I thought it came from a good place and it keeps us honest.

Three reasons: 1.Two of my lean scum reads and two of my lean town reads are on it. 2. I don't particularly agree with the reasons. 3. Titus' play so far has also been thoroughly meh.

What do you mean by "it keeps us honest"?

[fontisian]

Ok, the quoting thing did not go as planned.

Fixed
~Rubicon

[fontisian]

fontisian- Can you please explain your vote on Gooner?

Sure. His first post (44) was an excuse for an early lack of scumhunting, the first of Post 45 read as fake, he brought up the fact that scum are most likely still scumhunting and then attacked mastin for acknowledging that point in post 78, he suggested a plan to vig Zekrom in post 170, even though he had expressed no suspicion of Zekrom prior to that point, two of his three votes have been OMGUS, and, probably the most damningly, he has consistently favored information over analysis.

Gooner: What mafia playing culture do you come from and what are your reads? Also, why didn't you comment on my vote and Titus's vote for you?

That said, I really did not like the way a wagon formed after I made one unexplained vote.

Do you have any thoughts on the other players than the players you mentioned above?

The only thing I get from this post is your 'meh' at Titus and jklash.
Scum reading gooner.
Not liking Dry.

I like you and jklash for town. mastin, jmo16ma and Haylen are all on the townier side of null. ObssessedWithCats, pisskop and Titus are null, and I expect to find at least one scum among them after the Gooner bandwagon. Surye and Dry-fit are on the scummy side of null, and Gooner is my main scumread. I'm really not sure what to think of Zekrom.

I don't see Gooner as scum.

I'm starting to lean on Zekrom25 as our best bet. If he's town, scum won't likely target him, if he's scum, he won't be targeted by opposing scum. His play is damaging to towns chances of winning.

If your goal is to convince me to switch my vote to you, this post is an excellent first step. You considered a Zekrom lynch solely from the pov of a scum looking to lynch the other team and left yourself an out by presenting the idea that scummy players don't get nightkilled as something unique to this setup.

Why do you think Gooner is town?

mastin2: What about Dry-fit's posts have you reading him as town? I had the opposite reaction to 144 and 146.

Eh, not so much now.

You must have had some reasoning at the time. Care to share it?

[fontisian]

[*]

fontisian

- Interested in your "found scum" on Gooner. Is it for the hypocrisy I touched on?

I think I've already answered this, but yes, that was part of my reasoning. Could you give some more clarity to your readlist by categorizing people as scummy, lean town, etc.?

Gooner: What mafia playing culture do you come from and what are your reads? Also, why didn't you comment on my vote and Titus's vote for you?]

It's a very different culture to this one. First off, unexplained votes and votes based off of gut feeling are genuine scumtells there since the town players always explain their votes and give logical reasons. Anyone doing this is simply a scum trying not to be accountable. That's probably the big shift in playstyles, the other major change is that days last 3/4 RL days rather than the time it takes to get a lynch here.

My reads I'll explain when I'm on my home computer, I don't want to be cut off mid post while I'm here.

I'm not sure why I didn't comment on your vote, it didn't spike out as something worth commenting on. Probably because it hadn't developed into a bandwagon yet and I was focusing on Shadowcat.

Titus said she would give an explanation for her vote so I was willing to see if she would or not. More on her vote when I'm at home.

Fair enough. I was actually wondering about the specific site.

1. Look at the rest of my play in this thread and does it fit with a scum who is not scumhunting?
2. I attacked mastin for fence-sitting not for suggesting scum can scumhunt. There's a difference.
3. Zekrom's a liability as either alignment. If possible I don't want him around in the end game. At the same time I have scumreads that are fairly strong and I don't want to waste a lynch on him when I have better scumreads. Do you see why I wanted him vigged now?
4. It's Day One, information is in my opinion to bigger priority over analysis. Later on analysis becomes more important. The vital thing for Day One is ensuring that information is produced which the town can use later in the game.

1.Yes.
2.She was fencesitting because scum can scumhunt in this setup. That's the point.
3.I agree that he's a liability. I find it strange that you would be aware of the two factions, but not aware that there is no vig.
4. I think you misunderstood me. You are focused on information like your playstyle, the culture you come from and explaining which things you consider scum tells over actual scumhunting, which involves attacking posts and analyzing reactions. The former is much easier to do as scum.

You considered a Zekrom lynch solely from the pov of a scum looking to lynch the other team and left yourself an out by presenting the idea that scummy players don't get nightkilled as something unique to this setup.

Getting crosskills is extremely important for town in this setup though, since town is very weak in and of itself.

Town can win without any crosskills, but that's really not the point. You were considering who the scum were most likely to shoot as your criterea for lynching Zekrom, which is something far more likely to come from scum than from town. We're going to lynch scummy players, not the people we think scum won't shoot. Anything else would be moronic.

You must have had some reasoning at the time. Care to share it?

Well, no guarantee that this was my thoughts at the time, but I think my process was basically, "I always think he's scum, think he's scum now, so am probably wrong. Giving benefit of the doubt and not automatically reading him as scum, his posts look kinda town, actually.)

Ah. Why did his posts look kind of town?

Zekrom: Why do you want us to not vote for Haylen?

[fontisian]

pisskop: You believe that Haylen is scum in connection to Zekrom, correct? Then, why aren't you voting for Zekrom?

[fontisian]

For one I'm finding that I like my vote moving around in most cases, town or not.

For another I'm willing to wager that if I made a serious accusation without voting the target somebody would ask why I'm not voting.

And finally while I'd be happy with a Zek lynch I feel that if we can get a better scum we should. why play for nickels when you can play for dollars?

Ok, answer these questions for me: If we lynch Haylen and she flips town, would you still want to lynch Zekrom? If we lynch Zekrom and he lynched town, would you still want to lynch Haylen?

But your read on me is so bad, why do you insist that's your most important?

Lynch it.

Unvote
Vote Surye

[fontisian]

Not off rip to both. I'm not always voting to lynch.
If my vote is [presumably] my only power than I'm happy using it as a threat for infos. I was on JKlash for info, for instance.

The issue with that is when I say things like this.

:/ Right, let me reword this. From what I've gathered, you think Zekrom is likely scum. You also think Haylen is likely to be his scummate, based on Zekrom's interactions with Haylen. So, I'm wondering why you don't want to lynch Zekrom first, to see if the first part of your theory is correct.

Hey Titus, why is your vote following mine around like a lost puppy?

[fontisian]

I feel a lot better about Gooner after post 390.

shouldn't claim until there's intent to hammer. And nobody better hammer without giving intent first either.

Why shouldn't he claim now?

[fontisian]

I'd say L-1 is close enough that he should definitely claim. In my experience, claims are more common at L-2.

[fontisian]

I have no problem with a hammer. Surye, if you're going to claim, do it now. I'd like some time to react.

Of the two lynches I can see might reasonably be achievable before the deadline, I'd prefer Zekrom over Surye. Zek picked up his feet momentarily in 403 but 464 marked the completion of his slide right back into unhelpful empty posts. He's shown us that he

can

think, and then showed us that he doesn't want to.

VOTE: Zekrom

(ObsessedWithCats might actually be scum.)

Reasonably certain Zekrom's flipping town, especially given that Zekrom's the counter-wagon to Surye.

Why can't they both be scum?

[fontisian]

Ok, let's think about this. What are the possible motivations for nightkills in this setup?

1.Taking out an immediate threat (someone who is attacking your teammates right now)
2.Taking out a future threat (a dangerous power who may attack you or your teammate in the future)
3.Taking out someone who is unlikely to be lynched
4.Taking out someone who is likely a member of the other scum team
5.Taking out someone who you've townread in order to get towncred?
6.Trying to avoid the other team's kill

For the Gooner kill, we know number 3 isn't true. Number 2 is possible but seems unlikely with this playerbase. Number 1 is possible but risks backlash if people notice. Number 5 is stupid, and hence unlikely. Number 6 is just a wifom fest, and IMO, doesn't explain the kill on it's own. I'm thinking number 4 is the most likely. So, who had a scumread on Gooner and believes that one scumteam should try to take out the other?

[fontisian]

Re motivation: Eh, it's just something to keep in mind.

Titus: You know I like to research the people I'm playing with. That, and I have eyes. I didn't need one Day in this game to realize that Gooner was not the strongest player here.

I like Dry-fit's points against OBC. Let's see what comes of it.
VOTE: ObsessedWithCats

[fontisian]

Sheeping.

VOTE: ObsessedWithCats

Normally, I say more, but that's all that is needed to be said.

:/

Still following my vote around Titus?

[fontisian]

Sheeping.

VOTE: ObsessedWithCats

Normally, I say more, but that's all that is needed to be said.

:/

Still following my vote around Titus?

Oh don't flatter yourself. I am sheeping Dry-fit.


@Jmo, since when does sheeping make you twitch?

True or false: Every time I have put a vote down your vote has been immediately behind mine.
It has nothing to do with my ego, and everything to do with the fact that your votes follow mine. It's weird, and I don't understand why you are doing it.

I not sure I agree with Haylen's case against Cat, but I think she's probably town for coming up with it.

Shadowcat: Put a vote down. It doesn't have to be on Cats.

Let's see, post 573. I'll dissect this when I'm not half asleep, but my initial impression is that it's made me a lot happier with my current vote against Cats

[fontisian]

Or you've both played in different games and your memories of five years ago aren't perfect. This argument is ridiculous.

[fontisian]

The Shadowcat/Haylen meta debate is a distraction, IMO, so I'm going to move on to something else.

OWC: Your read wall was wishy-washy and consisted of more blanket statements than any reasoning.

I really dislike the thinness of Dry-fit's case on me. In spite of that I suspect he's potentially just town getting a bit tunnely - I think it's more likely the people who sheeped him without questioning are scum.

Why do you think Dry-fit is potentially tunneling town and what does that really mean?

fontisian felt like town when he first showed up, but I'm feeling more and more that I might have been wrong.

Ok. Why?

Titus I'm not sure about. Obviously I don't like the case so I don't like the sheeping, but she's been posting regularly, it's been far from empty posts and I've come to agree with her read on Zekrom. I would be very surprised if they were both town, but not particularly surprised about just one of them being town.

This part was a bit better, but the scummy part comes entirely from the fact that Titus sheeped Dry-fit and the town part comes entirely from the fact that Titus's post have content and from her read of Zekrom. Do you have ... more?

I can kind of see where Haylen's coming from, but there are so many potential layers of 'someone was framing me' 'you just want it to look like you were framed' that that's not a good vote in any case. I don't much like the attempt to pull a case from something that ultimately boils down to WIFOM, and looking back 455 looked kinda rolefishy coming from someone who explicitly has no intent to hammer and should be familiar with the site's usual 'intent-then-claim' procedure. Haylen could be scum too.

Do you think you rolefishing point still applies after the whole meta debate?

I've found a third scumread in jklash12; the WIFOMy 'obviously I'm not scum because ....' posts, the fact that part of his case on jmo is for only having had two scum reads just as jklash himself has only had two scumreads, the fact that today he admits jmo is getting better but hasn't considered who else might be scum in his place or in addition to him and the fact that most of his posts today consist of being helpful in vague kind of way while not having an opinion on anyone other than jmo.

Your strongest case, from an explanations viewpoint, is against jklash. Why aren't you trying to lynch him? For that matter, why aren't you pushing any of your scum reads?

Its not tge subject, its the manner in which it was discussed. At this point, unless we had a clear liar I dont care how claims were commonly handled. I hear alot of things from older players on the site.

What interests me is how it was played out. very fiercely. Theres something there.

pisskop: Can you clarify what you mean by this?

[fontisian]

pisskop: Why did you unvote?

You explained wh you think Haylen and Shadowcat are unaligned pairs, but that doesn't mean one of them has to be scum.

[fontisian]

'Unaligned pairs' I think means simething different than 'not on the same team'.

If they are not on the same team by definition one or both have to be scum. only one town.

Yes. That's my point. You've only shown that they're likely unaligned pairs. I don't see where the "not on the same team" part comes from.

[fontisian]

Pisskop has the right of it. I'm asking why it can't be town v. town.

[fontisian]

UNVOTE:
I liked OWC's post 668 a lot. Let's see if there's enough time to derail this wagon.

VOTE: Dry-fit
Hello scum.

[fontisian]

Titus: Four reasons.
1. Only asking me for my read of him was when I first came into the game.
2. Constant tunneling on OWC, while ignoring his other scumread.
3. Obsession with the idea that scum are hunting for other scum with their kills.

Yeah some strange kills. Gooner was fairly obvtown really.

Vote: ObsessedWithCats.

4. The "Gooner was fairly obvtown really" line when he said nothing of the sort while Gooner was under pressure.

I'd be willing to switch to pisskop after the way he tried to whip up conflict and create a false dichotomy.

[fontisian]

Choo choo!

[fontisian]

Oh, I should probably address this.

Your attitude about Titus' vote following you feels off - she's clearly not slacking off from thinking for herself, what's wrong with her vote being in the same place as yous? What's the scum motivation for that?

It's not scummy so much as

weird

, as in my other two games with Titus, our reads were not that similar. So, I decided to poke it with a stick.

[fontisian]

?

What are you saying pisskop?

[fontisian]

Hmmm.

Anyway, what do you think of the Dry-fit wagon?

[fontisian]

Sorry Titus. The Dry-fit wagon has momentum and the pisskop one doesn't.

pisskop: Which parts of OWC's opinions do you like and why?

OWC: What parts of the case against Dry-fit do you agree with?

[fontisian]

\
Now, I'm not voting OWC. My gut is leading me on DF now since Shadowcat isn't happening, and I like the case against him. Pisskop would work too, but I'd prefer DF.
VOTE: Dry-fit

@OWC
Are you still up for fonti tomorrow?

Hey Edosurist, do you see the problem with these two quotes?

-------
As a general note, you guys need to stop acting like your choices for a lynch are restricted to a set number of players with some momentum against them. If you want someone outside of OWC and Dry-Fit lynched, just make a case and maybe others will join you.

[fontisian]

1. I just wanted to engage you somehow, and the most interesting thing about your posts to me was that you gave kind of a half-read on me. I wanted to explore that.
2. I only have one vote at a time and we can only lynch one person each day. No one is particularly interested in pushing jmo. jmo hasn't been posting much new content.
3. How is that scummy? That's my view of this setup. You can look at any of the fire and ice games I've played and see the same kind of talk.
4. Giving town reads isn't always the best thing especially when that player isn't under much pressure, as Gooner never was.

1. Yes, but why was that the most interesting part of my posts to you? You could have asked for my opinion on anyone.
2. So why haven't you asked jmo any questions or tried to force him to provide content?
3. IMO, that attitude is more likely to come from scum than town. It's really a minor thing.
4. ... Did you miss the Gooner wagon?

It's pretty clear from this that pisskop isn't OWC's buddy though.

How so?

If ObsessedWithCats is still alive by Night four I will SCREAM AT ALL OF YOU POSTGAME.

Why by night four?

[fontisian]

pisskop: Why didn't you bring that up when OWC was under pressure? Why haven't you even mentioned any agreement with the jklash vote until now?

Your previous post seem to state the opposite, actually:

@everyoneWhat's the possibility of a OWC, fontisian or shadowcat lynch if I said I wouldn't hammer OWC? Keep in mind this is just a hypothetical (I'm thinking mainly of the deadline which I didn't realize was so close)

I would accept him of if I couldn't swing Haylen or Shadow. His most recent post is good and thick, and his wagon isn't the reason I find him scummy. I would be lying if I said I was sure Fonti was town.[/quote]

Titus: I wasn't encouraging you to back off. I was explaining why I'm not on the pisskop wagon right now, though that last post has me considering it.

[fontisian]

Bleh, quoting fail. I'm sure you guys can figure out what I meant to say.

[fontisian]

pisskop: You call that attacking JK? The vote came when we barely out of RVS and you called his logic obvious once. Post 603 was a statement of fact that was never followed up on. Post 700 doesn't count because it's what started this line of questioning.

Answer the other question. Why are you only agreeing with OWC's points after the wagon on her started dying?

Edosurist: Fair enough. Would you be willing to switch to pisskop?

[fontisian]

Why haven't you even mentioned any agreement with the jklash vote until now

Answer the other question. Why are you only agreeing with OWC's points after the wagon on her started dying?

Why are you trying to force a scumread on me?

Attacking

?! Lol-slip

Yes attacking. Or, as you would put it, "being on" jklash.

Ive been on JK all game. :/ Not being something I hid I figured you guys already knew that.

You ignored this question:

pisskop: Why didn't you bring that up when OWC was under pressure?

"That" refers to all of your claimed agreements with OWC's points that apparently stem back to the beginning of the game.

[fontisian]

Answer the other question. Why are you only agreeing with OWC's points after the wagon on her started dying?

Ah, I referred to OWC as a "her." Sorry about that.

[fontisian]

Why is it something I would jump out and proclaim?

What a silly thought, that we should all proclaim every agreement.



You asked for my opinions, I laid them out, clearly.

Because they were going to be lynched! And you claim to have a problem with jklash, but you've done nothing to get him lynched! How can I possibly believe you?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: pisskop

[fontisian]

Dry-fit: This isn't letting you off the hook. Please answer my questions and give reasoning for your scumreads (the reasoning part is the most important thing).

[fontisian]

You are scum and I will lynch you.

Titus: Get over here and back me up.

[fontisian]

VOTE: Pisskop

Yeah, I got a vote on Pisskop!

Sorry Fonti, needed to post something for a mole game I'm hosting. I'm here though. Let's lynch him.

<3

So, when I flip, what will this tell you?

That you're scum. Obviously. (I'll have to take another look at jklash and OWC as your possible buddies.)

So fonti, your reason for pisskop is he didn't make a push to lynch me? Do I have that right?

Hell no, that's not it. There's:
1.Claiming that he's been pushing to lynch you now when he's done nothing of the sort.
2.Saying that he likes OWC's reasoning all the way back from near the beginning of Day 1 only after the wagon on them started to die down.
3.His reaction to my pressure. He's deflecting instead of answering my questions, coming up with omgus attacks and trying to discredit me by attacking my intentions. You'll notice that through all this he still hasn't called me scum.
4. His attempt to create a false-dichotomy and push the Shadowcat/Haylen conflict earlier toDay.

Number 3 is the big one. This is not a town reaction to pressure.

[fontisian]

pisskop: Why isn't Dry-fit in your read list?

[fontisian]

Edosurist: 1. We're looking at scumteams of two people. How far do you expect a scum driven counterwagon to get?
2. You really think I'm trying to counterwagon the wagon I started? Pisskop is the better lynch. Join us on it.
3. I've already explained those quotes to Titus. Why did you skip over that explanation? For that matter, why didn't you bring this up when you responded to one of the quoted posts before? Those two posts are not contradictory, because I was (and am) fine with a Dry-fit lynch, and, at that time, saw no reason to push another lynch when I was happy with the one that was happening.
4. Are you pisskop's scummate?

Also, I'm a she.

[fontisian]

1. How is it opportunistic? Seriously, I can't be scum with both Dry-fit and OWC, so if I were opportunistic scum I would have just stuck with the lynch on one of them.
2. Yes, but that would be moronic.
3. But I wasn't telling Titus that her wagon wouldn't work. I was explaining to her why I wasn't joining her on it after she asked me to. I'm calling bullshit on the "only noticing it now" garbage. You responded to one of those two posts earlier and was around when Titus asked about it. Do you really expect me to believe that you didn't notice it then?
4. And how is that? Do you disagree with my points against pisskop? Do you think his reaction to my pressure was in any way towny?

[fontisian]

4. And how is that? Do you disagree with my points against pisskop? Do you think his reaction to my pressure was in any way towny?

of. course it was.

You were searching for a reason to push me.

And you choose my JK read.

here we are.

1. Those questions were not directed at you.
2. Where does the "you were searching for a reason to push me" come from?
3. I did not simply "choose your JK read." The only part of your jklash read that I care about is the way you've claimed to have been scumreading him since the beginning of the game, but haven't acted on that scumread at all.

[fontisian]

1. Now you have me confused. You were voting DF before pisskop, and OWC has nothing to do with this. I don't think you're scum with OWC because OWC is town. It would be opportunistic because people already thought pisskop was scum, so it'd be an easy counterwagon to your DF scumbuddy I've guessing. Again, I don't know if this is true unless we lynch DF and see how he flips.
2. It wouldn't be moronic if DF was your scumbuddy.
3. Even with the context, you're still discouraging Titus from pursuing her wagon, which is not what you suggested in the next post. I responded to one, but I didn't see them together until I looked back again. Yes, it is possible for me to not notice it the first time. It's not uncommon to miss something the first time around, be it in mafia or the Meat World.
4. You've bailed one successful wagon for another. You were perpetuating the DF wagon, and now you've effectively derailed it. Unless we pull someone some active players from one wagon to another, I don't conceive a lynch before deadline.

1. I'm saying that if I were opportunistic scum, as you are accusing me of being, that I could have easily just kept my vote on OWC and let the game languish in inactivity and semantic arguments.
2. Yes it would. Starting a bus on scummate without the intention of following through if it gets support is the definition of moronic.
3. If by "discouraging Titus from pursuing her wagon" you mean "not encouraging it by jumping on board" then sure, I guess I discouraged her. Otherwise, I can't see where you're coming from here.
4. We have almost a full day left. If it comes down to it, I'll switch back to Dry-fit and someone else will put the hammer down. And I fully intend to pull active players to this wagon.

You didn't answer my other two questions: Do you disagree with my points against pisskop? Do you think his reaction to my pressure was in any way towny?