Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[acryon]

Wow, I'm gone for the parts of the day I can't post and in 9 hours 2 people are dead O_O. This is a post to say I am here and looking things over. Will post what I have in a little while.

[acryon]

VOTE: wgeurts

Also if I accidentally use the name Keely it's referring to Cheetory6 and the name Young refers to YYR. Be back after dinner.

Cheetory, do you think this clarification is more likely to come from townJohnny or scumJohnny?

Pretend Cheetos have a direct answer. Then what?

1) a discussion about how useless meta is
2) a discussion of Johnny's past meta
3) a throwaway answer that leads nowhere
4) someone calls it dumb

^my best guess. I can't imagine any useful scumhunting coming from that question

I get this in some sense, but in the other I don't. It's literally page 2 at this point, so I think any discussion is good, even just to get some reactions. I don't like when players seem to be stifling discussion.

Then why did you opt for option #4?

Because I had nothing better to say

You have nothing better to say, so you tell someone else the things they are saying are dumb? Not sure I get this.

I townread Droog.
I would be willing to lynch Dyx as an alternate wagon.

What is making you town-read Droog? Additionally, why would you be willing to lynch Dyx? Naked reads don't help us much.

For saying that getting scum on D1 is crucial for town winning, Johnny is surprisingly okay with lynching someone he normally has a shitty time reading on D1.

This is interesting to me.

I don't have any experience with droog prior to this game, but I do tend to prefer using meta for my arguments, which is why I might seem so lost at the moment given the hardcore different playstyles here and the fact that I only know two people in this game thus far and didn't want to focus on just trying to read them. [especially since I usually struggle with reading Johnny and YYR in the games that I'm usually in with them]

I really don't like meta arguments. Asking a meta question to spur discussion is fine to me, but strongly basing reads on meta is dangerous. This doesn't necessarily ping, just a note.

*Picks up the axe and chops off the head*
VOTE: Cheetory
Majority reached, man I love waking up.

What the heck is this? Why would someone hammer this early and in the middle of discussion... Thank God cheetory was a sniper.

If that's your line of questioning, that's awful.

Re: Blair questioning Droog on the mislynch, I agree that line is awful.

It's banter, but if he thinks wgeurts is Town he should probably move his vote.

P-edit: @YYR

This didn't seem genuine to me. It's easy to say in response to someone calling you out that it was just banter, but I don't think I buy that.

I quick hammered because he already had 6 votes and I was impatient and am new to mafia on this forum. I've just read throigh all the posts and I look horrendously scummy right now and I know nothing I can say will change that. Atleast let me live a while to get more info.

This whole exchange is absolutely terrible. Then town-reads blair to appear town. It just gets worse and worse. I have never laughed out loud at this game before, but I am right now because of how horribly scummy wgeurts ISO is. This is one of those scenarios where a person will continue to muck up reads with their extremely scummy looks, and unfortunately those people are often town. I hate saying someone is too scummy to be scummy, but it does feel like that could be the case. Then again he could just be scum.

I'm not interested in hammering in my first real post. Finally, I think that if wgeurts isn't scum, blair is.

[acryon]

Some of the D1 comments may not really be relevant now, but I was just going through and commenting I what caught my eye.

[acryon]

Acryon

I pointed out yyr's lame question /because/ there was nothing better
It's not a contradiction because the first caused the second

I would rather be honest about a dumb question than pretend its in any way helpful
At risk of being the "I got us out of RVS guy"
Me calling the question provoked more discussion than the question

I'm null on Blair. Blair v Thor looks like semantics
Liked actions entrance

Leaning town on Thor

Fair enough. I mean like I said I was just sort of giving my initial comments on things that stuck out to me at the time.

I am also null on Blair at the moment, but given wgeurts-town, I think Blair is scum. If wgeurts is scum, I think both Blair and Thor are town.

[acryon]

I've only ever played 1 game before, none on this forum.

For the love of god, the newbie queue exists for a reason...

In isolation, I'm not seeing enough Wgeurts/Blair interaction to follow your thought processes there regarding either/or scum. I'll take another look through the thread itself rather than ISOs when I have a chance, but would you mind giving a precis of why you're thinking that?

(If you already did so, sorry, I'll probably find it when I go through the thread again, so no need to respond if so)

I did say it a little bit, but it was in a big jumble, so I'll make it more direct.
I didn't buy 106 from Blair. 103 seemed like trying to make the post from Droog look worse than it was, something scum likes to do.
110 doesn't seem genuine either. Looks like scum trying to make some town-buddies. The "I don't agree with you, but I think you're town" argument, while certainly not totally alignment-indicative, causes me to take a second glance, especially when used multiple times.
117 - This type of post trying to analyze someone else's scum-read on her just sounds to me like misdirection.
The questioning of wgeurts is null to me, because anyone could and would have jumped on questioning him, she was just the first there.

Long-story short - I don't think she is asking any particularly tough questions, especially outside of the conversation with Thor. It seems like she's jumping on opportunities to earn easy town-points.

[acryon]

What is making you town-read Droog? Additionally, why would you be willing to lynch Dyx? Naked reads don't help us much.

Naked reads help fine because they are statements of intent and belief.

I town read Droog for trying to cut through the dross early.
I scum read Dyx for actively shifting to bigger wagons while not bothering to pressure the people she was voting, half defeating the purpose of being on the bigger wagon. Looked fake scumhunty.

I didn't say they were useless, but having the reasons helps a lot more, because maybe you caught onto something that someone else didn't, and that missing piece was what they needed to build a solid argument.

Thank God cheetory was a sniper.

Congratulating accuracy or is this a different rolename than I'm used to?

Just congratulatory.

I'm not interested in hammering in my first real post. Finally, I think that if wgeurts isn't scum, blair is.

Why?

If it's why to the second part, I answered that a couple posts ago, and as for the first part, I just jumped in, so I'd like to be a little more involved in the discussion and hear out some other cases before hammering.

[acryon]

Long-story short - I don't think she is asking any particularly tough questions, especially outside of the conversation with Thor. It seems like she's jumping on opportunities to earn easy town-points.

I agree with this, and have more opinions besides.

I fail to see the connection or lack of connection to wguerts you get from that. Clarify?

Weird, it didn't show up when I previewed. Anyway, it's nothing deep or complex. I Just think Blair is scummy, but I don't think that wguerts and Blair are a team. So it's one of the two IMO.

[acryon]

I Just think Blair is scummy, but I don't think that wguerts and Blair are a team. So it's one of the two IMO.

I would like you to recognize, for this and future games, that what you're saying here is 'my top two scumspects are Blair and wguerts' and that there is no either/or dynamic here other than one you decided to insert for no apparent reason. I am not calling this alignment indicative, but I am saying it's something you should be aware that you are doing.

I know what I am doing. And I didn't insert it for no apparent reason. Given the exchanges between the two, and the way Blair was pressuring wgeurts, I highly doubt they are scum together. You've never had 2 people where you were sure exactly 1 of them was scum, but not exactly sure which? That's very surprising.

[acryon]

@Acryon, can you explain the relations you mentioned in more depth? The things about if X is scum Y is town and so on?

To be honest it is a lot of gut, but ultimately I felt the exchange between the two of them indicated that they are not scum together.

[acryon]

I didn't buy 106 from Blair. 103 seemed like trying to make the post from Droog look worse than it was, something scum likes to do.

Long-story short - I don't think she is asking any particularly tough questions, especially outside of the conversation with Thor. It seems like she's jumping on opportunities to earn easy town-points.

post 106 was a question
so which is it?

blair is not asking tough questions, or she is asking questions that are too tough?

Post 106 was not a question. Post 106 was the justification for 103, which was a weak question. I don't see how I implied that we she said was too tough at all.

[acryon]

@Acryon, can you explain the relations you mentioned in more depth? The things about if X is scum Y is town and so on?

To be honest it is a lot of gut, but ultimately I felt the exchange between the two of them indicated that they are not scum together.

Alright. Not particularly satisfying for making such a claim. I don't see the necessity of making the claim what so ever. You also said if wgeurts is scum Blair and Thor is town, is that also gut?

That's fine. No one has to agree with me. They're my feelings for a reason after all, and I expressed them as I saw fit. I already explained the wgeurts/Blair relationship, but I think that Thor's Blair questioning is coming from town. So really I think he is probably town either way.

[acryon]

@Droog, why do you read Thor as to

thor made an interesting choice by holding the cheetos wagon at L-1
lots of players would have backed off, especially after cheetory started posting longform

it would have been very easy to back off the lynch and suck up town credit for it

To be fair, I don't think anyone expected a quickhammer.

[acryon]

i think thor has dodged a few opportunities this game to steal easy town credit. ergo, town.

I think Blair has done the opposite and taken the opportunities. Your thoughts?

[acryon]

point me to the opportunities you mean
there's been too much back and forth about logic for me to care

i thought thor and blair both had good points about whatever their argument started about

I agree. It was mostly the action outside of it that caught my eye.

Specifically 103, 110, and the jump on wgeurts.

I've only ever played 1 game before, none on this forum.

For the love of god, the newbie queue exists for a reason...

In isolation, I'm not seeing enough Wgeurts/Blair interaction to follow your thought processes there regarding either/or scum. I'll take another look through the thread itself rather than ISOs when I have a chance, but would you mind giving a precis of why you're thinking that?

(If you already did so, sorry, I'll probably find it when I go through the thread again, so no need to respond if so)

I did say it a little bit, but it was in a big jumble, so I'll make it more direct.
I didn't buy 106 from Blair. 103 seemed like trying to make the post from Droog look worse than it was, something scum likes to do.
110 doesn't seem genuine either. Looks like scum trying to make some town-buddies. The "I don't agree with you, but I think you're town" argument, while certainly not totally alignment-indicative, causes me to take a second glance, especially when used multiple times.
117 - This type of post trying to analyze someone else's scum-read on her just sounds to me like misdirection.
The questioning of wgeurts is null to me, because anyone could and would have jumped on questioning him, she was just the first there.

Long-story short - I don't think she is asking any particularly tough questions, especially outside of the conversation with Thor. It seems like she's jumping on opportunities to earn easy town-points.

[acryon]

ehhhhhhhhhhh

i could see 103 from scum but
if blair thought i meant that wgeurts is town and we should lynch him blair's question makes sense

But obviously you didn't think wgeurts was town, because otherwise why would you want to lynch him? There's a big difference between "Not sure if he is town or scum, but he is worth lynching," and "I think he is town, and we should lynch him anyway." Your post clearly conveyed the former and she tried to insinuate the latter.

what kind of town credit does scum blair pick up by bussing?

I don't think she is bussing; I already said I think only one of them is scum.

or why does scum blair need to vote on a sure lynch?

the vote is null at best

I think it was opportunistic. Nobody was really questioning wgeurts just yet, so she jumped in to start it. In a vacuum, this isn't scummy, but in the context of her other posts, I think it is.

[acryon]

with 2/10 scum we have 6 mislynches to lose

i was thinking we could use 4

If that's your line of questioning, that's awful.

we have five mislynches left

i would rather have five mislynches than six with someone who will quickhammer

from the first 2 posts its reasonable to assume i meant
"wgeurts is town lets lynch him anyways"

I don't think so, and the last quote of your's is irrelevant since it was after the comments in question. Clearly I'm not the only one that thinks so either since YYR called it out as well.

[acryon]

Prod dodge for now. Will post a good bit tomorrow morning after reading over everything.

[acryon]

Prod dodge for now. Will post a good bit tomorrow morning after reading over everything.

Ok, here we go.

Blair - Lean-scum. I still stand by my earlier posts about Blair seeming to take every opportunity that came their way.

Phillammon - Null. I actually agree with most of the things he has said. The thing that strikes me though seems to be his lack of real scum-hunting. He seems to be talking a decent amount, but not really saying very much. I'm just not sure I see that town-drive from him.

Shaddowez - Lean-town. 364 specifically makes sense to me as coming from town, even if I am not on the same page with him on all of it.

Thor665 - Lean-scum. I am inclined to think that Blair and Thor are the same alignment, as the discussion between the two of them did a pretty good job of monopolizing the town discussion. Thor has been posting a ton, but outside of an RVS vote and the vote on wgeurts, he didn't post again for another 46 posts. This strikes me as odd for someone who is posting so much. Thor may actually be my top scumspect.

droog - Town. He has posted a lot, and it is all real content. Good questions, accompanied by good follow-ups. He seems to be doing a good job of breaking up some of the side-discussions and bringing back the focus as well. My top town-read.

YYR - Lean-scum. Very little content. 99 seems really contrived to me. Why are you talking about weak bussing when we barely made it out of RVS before the hammer? Maybe because YYR was doing some more heavy-handed bussing in 42? Not sure, and it's sometimes hard to judge someone with so few posts, but this is where I am at.

Dyslexicon - Null. Asking real questions and posting real content. The wall-posting always makes me a little wary, because it can easily be scum trying to overcompensate. While there is real content, I am not finding very solid scum-hunting in their posts.

Fokem/Bins - Null. Bins and the slot she replaced into played me very hard in a previous game, so I'm automatically suspicious. Posts so far seem town though. Still need to see more.

and with that, VOTE: Thor.

[acryon]

Thor665 - Lean-scum. I am inclined to think that Blair and Thor are the same alignment, as the discussion between the two of them did a pretty good job of monopolizing the town discussion. Thor has been posting a ton, but outside of an RVS vote and the vote on wgeurts, he didn't post again for another 46 posts. This strikes me as odd for someone who is posting so much. Thor may actually be my top scumspect.

Wait, what is the 46 post period where I wasn't posting so that it's strange that I didn't post during it?
?

Stupid typo. Meant 46 posts without a vote, not post. My bad.

[acryon]

What is strange about going 46 posts without a vote whether or not I'm active?

Seems odd to be posting so much content without actually bringing pressure in the form of a vote. Also an easy way to avoid real controversy.

[acryon]

When did I not have a vote in play?

I didn't say you didn't. But for all of the discussion you were involved in, you would think your vote would move at some point in an effort to actually pressure someone. It wasn't doing much sitting on wgeurts for all of day 2.

[acryon]

Nobody said you had to like my reason for feeling you were suspicious. All I am saying is for someone who was playing so strongly, your votes didn't seem to be following.

[acryon]

Acryon Thor is not the only one who camped on wgeurys
Why does his vote draw ire

Yes, but in going through his ISO, it seemed very much like there should have been a pressure vote elsewhere that never came. Additionally, everyone else seemed to have more to say about the wgeurts situation with their vote other than "This can go though. As soon as we started talking about a Johnny lynch suddenly a quick hammer. No thanks." Especially when he seemed to indicate a line before this that seemed a lot more useful than a vote on wgeurts that led in only one direction-the lynch.

[acryon]

@Acryon - please provide a quote from my ISO that shows that I should have placed a pressure vote hat never came.
Please.
Pretty please.

See almost every post from you on D2, where you said flat out multiple times that Blair was scum. If you were so sure she was scum, why wouldn't you vote there and get a wagon going rather than leave your vote on a policy lynch?

[acryon]

@Acryon - please provide a quote from my ISO that shows that I should have placed a pressure vote hat never came.
Please.
Pretty please.

See almost every post from you on D2, where you said flat out multiple times that Blair was scum. If you were so sure she was scum, why wouldn't you vote there and get a wagon going rather than leave your vote on a policy lynch?

I did huh?

Yes, you did.

Thor and droog raise valid points on wgeurts, by the way. If he doesn't explain himself soon I'm game for this.

(I can hardly imagine a satisfactory explanation but I love being surprised)

Oh man, such scum. And Wp is your bud too, huh? Classic.

I'll explain it as soon as you explain to me how "I don't understand your logic, I'd love you to explain it" became "Thor's attack is illogical" until I forced you to explain it.

Did you just accuse me of explaining and not explaining at the same time? Or am I misreading?

No, I accused you of coming up with a cover story to an attack on me that makes no sense at all as soon as anyone looks at it.
I would tell you to kill me, but you can't, so after wgeurts we'll have PLENTY of time for me to explain exactly how scummy what you just said was.

2. I have actively been explaining why Blair is scummy...have you missed all of that?

187

You are scum.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

When you read me, did you read this comment (or any of the dozen or so I made that said the same thing?)

Yes, doesn't mean I agree with it.

I didn't want to get into it because I want wgerurts dead. I wanted him dead 12 hours ago, and for some reason town is derping around and wanting to be distracted. i do not think it is a good idea.

Because...your issue here literally seems to require not reading what I was saying/doing Day 2 and making up your own version of what I wanted.
I did not want a pressure wagon.
I did not want an alternate lynch wagon.
I said as much multiple times.

Response?

"Hey guys, I'm going to talk about one person being super scummy, but I'm telling you I'm keeping my vote on the policy lynch. But I'm just going to keep it on the policy lynch, so you can't think I'm scummy for leaving it there."

That doesn't work for me.

I did not want a pressure wagon.
I did not want an alternate lynch wagon.
I said as much multiple times.

This is stupid. Other people may have left their votes on the VI, but they also didn't seem to have their noses right on scum. You don't have such an excuse.

[acryon]

I suppose the most direct way to articulate the concern to you is this: You were more sure that wgeurts would flip scum than that I would?

No, but it didn't matter - wgeurts had to die, and he needed to die asap.

So with every other player, there is a discussion, but with wgeurts, he just needed to die? "X did Y scummy. Let's just lynch him and not talk about it at all." I don't like this at all.

[acryon]

I suppose the most direct way to articulate the concern to you is this: You were more sure that wgeurts would flip scum than that I would?

No, but it didn't matter - wgeurts had to die, and he needed to die asap.

So with every other player, there is a discussion, but with wgeurts, he just needed to die? "X did Y scummy. Let's just lynch him and not talk about it at all." I don't like this at all.

I don't really care - what I care about is you calling me scummy because I didn't create a pressure wagon on Day 2 when literally everything I said made it painfully clear that my goal for Day 2 was a speed lynch on wgeurts. Now, you can call *that* scummy if you wish - but to call me scummy for not doing something I was openly saying I had no interest in doing (and actively fought doing) is messed up.

Can you explain the scumtell more?

Again, it doesn't matter to me that you said you wanted a speed lynch on wgeurts; I still think it was bad and your vote should have been elsewhere given your comments regarding Blair. Your read on wgeurts included one action, while your read on Blair was much more meaty. By your own admission, you weren't sure that wgeurts was a more likely scum-flip than Blair, yet you left your vote on him?

I suppose the most direct way to articulate the concern to you is this: You were more sure that wgeurts would flip scum than that I would?

No, but it didn't matter - wgeurts had to die, and he needed to die asap. If I had town reaad him I would have done something else, but I didn't so quick death was optimal play rather than wasting time debating anything when he needed death.

Why did he need to die asap? This game is always about lynching who you most think is scum. To deviate from that is anti-town.

Since you are very concerned with the details of my read, I'll spell it out to answer your issues.

I don't really care - what I care about is you calling me scummy because I didn't create a pressure wagon on Day 2 when literally everything I said made it painfully clear that my goal for Day 2 was a speed lynch on wgeurts. Now, you can call *that* scummy if you wish - but to call me scummy for not doing something I was openly saying I had no interest in doing (and actively fought doing) is messed up.

*That* was scummy, and by extension, I think *you* are scummy.

[acryon]

Again, it doesn't matter to me that you said you wanted a speed lynch on wgeurts; I still think it was bad and your vote should have been elsewhere given your comments regarding Blair. Your read on wgeurts included one action, while your read on Blair was much more meaty. By your own admission, you weren't sure that wgeurts was a more likely scum-flip than Blair, yet you left your vote on him?

Translating this;
Thor said Blair was scum
Thor also said wgeurts was scum.
I think Thor should have voted Blair.
I have Thor admitting that his read on them he was not certain that wgeurts was more likely scum than Blair.
Conclusion: obviously he should have voted Blair...which, by my same logic, would then have been scummy because he wasn't sure that Blair was more scummy than wgeurts and had a reason to be voting wgeurts and mentioned that he needed to be dead.

Since you are very concerned with the details of my read, I'll spell it out to answer your issues.

I don't really care - what I care about is you calling me scummy because I didn't create a pressure wagon on Day 2 when literally everything I said made it painfully clear that my goal for Day 2 was a speed lynch on wgeurts. Now, you can call *that* scummy if you wish - but to call me scummy for not doing something I was openly saying I had no interest in doing (and actively fought doing) is messed up.

*That* was scummy, and by extension, I think *you* are scummy.

You're changing your story here. I am still left unsure what your issue even is, and I believe it continues to make no sense.

If your issue is what I understand it to be - why are you not complaining that I'm voting Dyx right now instead of Blair?

Not sure why you are having such a hard time grasping this.

Day 2, you left your vote on someone that you seemed to have 1 reason for voting for(wgeurts) and dismissed any notion that his lynch even needed to be discussed. Simultaneously, you had another player who you thought was pretty solidly scum (at least as much-so as wgeurts, but what appeared to be more-so), and seemed to have a lot to back it up yet never placed your vote on. Once again, townies try to lynch who they think is most scum. You, however, decided instead that wgeurts needed to die "because", rather than pursuing a lynch that certainly seemed a lot better from your standpoint. You can try to reduce what you did all you want, but I thought it sucked, and was scummy.

[acryon]

Day 2, you left your vote on someone that you seemed to have 1 reason for voting for(wgeurts) and dismissed any notion that his lynch even needed to be discussed.

Quote any attempt at conversation from anyone that I quashed as it related to wgeurts? I don't recall it even happening.

It was an active dismissal that discouraged any discussion. The way you flippantly referred to the wgeurts lynch such as "this can go through", "after wgeurts", and "which must go through today" created a picture of inevitability, and I think your loud voice as town helped cement it as such.

Simultaneously, you had another player who you thought was pretty solidly scum (

at least as much-so as wgeurts, but what appeared to be more-so

), and

seemed to have a lot to back it up

yet never placed your vote on.

Well, first off 'never placed vote on till Day2.

Not sure what this is referring to?

Also all the commentary in bold is pretty opinionated and doesn't actually match with anything I said - as long as you agree that you're projecting those thoughts onto me I am fine, but let's be clear about that part of your case.

I didn't say I was dissecting your words, so I am completely okay with a little projection. I am dissecting your character and alignment, and that almost always requires at least a little imagination.

Once again, townies try to lynch who they think is most scum.

Agreed.
You have failed to show that I thought Blair was more scum than wgeurts.

I disagree, and if I have, I think anyone that looked through your ISO would see that this is almost certainly the case.

You, however, decided instead that wgeurts needed to die "because",

"Because I thought he was scum"
Agreed.

Clearly you thought he was scum on some level, but I question the idea that you thought he was actually more likely to be scum than Blair, and your conversation seems to imply that. For someone that you thought was scum, you didn't really have anything to say about why he was actually scum apart from your first comment. Blair, on the other hand, you had plenty to talk about.

rather than pursuing a lynch that certainly seemed a lot better from your standpoint.

Even though you have no reason to think this other than your own opinion of my thoughts, that also requires me to be lying about what I said I believed.

Thoughts?

It seems a bit disingenuous to pretend that the idea that you had more of a scum-read on Blair than wgeurts has no bearing. Anyone who reads through your ISO can get there. It's obviously way too much to quote, but I already quoted some of the more important bits in my previous posts.

[acryon]

It was an active dismissal that discouraged any discussion. The way you flippantly referred to the wgeurts lynch such as "this can go through", "after wgeurts", and "which must go through today" created a picture of inevitability, and I think your loud voice as town helped cement it as such.

...so, basically by me saying 'we have to lynch this guy' I destroyed the ability of anyone to discuss anything else?
Fascinating considering that I TRIED not to discuss Blair, yet somehow that one happened.
Almost as though I don't have magical mind powers to control the conversation in the thread.

Ugh, you can reductio ad ridiculum all you want, but I hope the rest of the town doesn't fall for it.

Clearly you thought he was scum on some level, but I question the idea that you thought he was actually more likely to be scum than Blair, and your conversation seems to imply that. For someone that you thought was scum, you didn't really have anything to say about why he was actually scum apart from your first comment. Blair, on the other hand, you had plenty to talk about.

1. No one asked for my thoughts on wgeurts.

Oh wow, I didn't realize I was working with someone who doesn't ever act of their own volition, but only as a response to inquiry. Oh wait a second.

2. Did *you* not understand my case on wgeurts? Why didn't you ask me about it at the time then?

Work made me unable to be around except for a very brief part of D2.

3. I had plenty to talk about on Blair because someone demanded that I explain my case on Blair - almost as though when asked to provide a case, I provide a case. It's sort of a strange habit I have.

See my response to point 1.

4. Please refernce the comment abouve that I responded to with a and then note in explaining it you are admitting to drawing conclusions that are based on supposition with no actual support.

I won't admit that it is based on no actual support. The whole point of this game is putting together pieces that seem insignificant to create something significant. The key point there is creation. Almost every case, especially early in the game is on some level based on assumptions, and this one is no different.

5. This case is scummy, it's not just bad.

Wrong twice.

It seems a bit disingenuous to pretend that the idea that you had more of a scum-read on Blair than wgeurts has no bearing. Anyone who reads through your ISO can get there. It's obviously way too much to quote, but I already quoted some of the more important bits in my previous posts.

I agree that you posted me discussing a scum read on Blair.
I disagree that you have done anything to support the stance that it was stronger beyond trying to not pay attention to why I was saying the things you are using as evidence.

I suppose we agree to disagree then.

[acryon]

Oh wow, I didn't realize I was working with someone who doesn't ever act of their own volition, but only as a response to inquiry. Oh wait a second.

When your case on me is "made a big issue on Blair but didn't on wgeurts"
and my response is "I made a case on neither until asked to make one on Blair"
Then...YEAH that is an issue. For you.

The rest of your post was empty nothingness, but this line was scummy cover up.

I wouldn't exactly call posts like the one below you "only talking about it because you were asked".

You

made the initial posts indicating you thought that Blair was scum. So don't act like you only talked about it because people asked you about it.

I am moving Shadow and YYR to likely town.
I'd like to do the same for Blair, but...eh...

[acryon]

Is acryons terrible argument a plot to get us to town read him

Does anyone understand his argument
I can't see scum making it otherwise

What is terrible about my argument? ISO Thor and tell me it isn't almost certain that he scum-read Blair more than wgeurts. You can't possibly.

[acryon]

Do you always vote your #1

Yes, unless it is nearing deadline and I can't get a wagon finished in time for my #1, then I may vote my #2 or #3 to avoid a costly no-lynch. Do you not always vote the person you think has the highest chance of being scum except in the scenario I listed? Because that makes no sense.

[acryon]

ergo
under certain conditions town votes for #2 or lower

now tell me why thor's vote was not such a condition

No, I didn't say under certain conditions. I said under one condition, and it certainly didn't meet the criteria of that one. The only reason to ever not choose your #1 is if there is no time to complete a wagon. Otherwise, why would you ever go with the choice with a lower chance. That is completely illogical.

[acryon]

What do you think of me not voting fins

Bins? It depends. Votes are generally used for two reasons. To pressure or intent to lynch. If your vote is being used to do the latter, like Thor's was, then it should be on your #1 scum-read, unless the scenario I discussed before is in play.

[acryon]

Which brings us back to "how was wgeurt's not my top scum read"
Which comes to your "he made more points about Blair"
Which returns to my "I was asked to expand on my Blair case - I was not asked to do so for wgeurts"
Which returns to your...well...you actually haven't really done anything for that other than to provide a quote showing me stating three other reads and acting like that meant I was intentionally trying to talk about Blair or something...which it doesn't show.

I can't believe how crazy this is. Can someone

please

go through this man's ISO and realize that he was not simply providing Blair reads at gunpoint. You certainly started it. Don't act like that post I quoted is you just stating three ordinary reads. You listed two as town and one that you mysteriously can't move to town. Are you saying you honestly didn't expect that third to elicit a response?

[acryon]

Vote: wgeurts

This can go though. As soon as we started talking about a Johnny lynch suddenly a quick hammer. No thanks.

Like, I stated this case.
It's a good case.
No one even so much as blinked at the case.
The wagon was put to L-1 and I *did* make repeated notes that we should hammer it.

Is one bad action make a good case? I don't think so.

Just for fun, let's look at the other people who voted wgeurts and seemingly, why they did (apologies if you feel I misrepresent any of you):
droog - Principle
YYR - No reason
Blair - Didn't like his responses and still wanted his reads, combination intent to lynch and pressure vote
Shadowz - Didn't like the quickhammer or explanation
Phil - Didn't like his action or responses, waited to hammer. After hearing his reads, hammered

Lot's of other people had reasons to vote wgerts; that's not the problem. The problem is that those others didn't seem to have another scum-read with a case built on more than

one

action.

[acryon]

Is one bad action make a good case? I don't think so.

Your case on me is that I pushed a "second" read over a "primary" read.
That's called...one action.
You're voting me.

Actually not at all. My case on you is based on you consistently having a stronger case on Blair, yet voting wgeurts. It's an entire day of the action of not putting your vote where it should have been; certainly not just one action.

[acryon]

Also, thank you for picking up a Thor case in my absence Blair! And articulating it better than I probably could.

[acryon]

You case for why it's stronger uses the example of 'one action' versus a stronger case with 'more evidence'.

Can you rephrase this, because it makes no sense to me in the context of what we are talking about.

[acryon]

acryon who do you think is scum besides thor

I think that at least 1 of Blair/Thor is scum, possibly both. I also think that YYR is probably scum.

You case for why it's stronger uses the example of 'one action' versus a stronger case with 'more evidence'.

Can you rephrase this, because it makes no sense to me in the context of what we are talking about.

I'm making fun of you because of how you're harping on the 'one thing' aspect of my wgeurts read without realizing that basically all cases are about one thing, and I'm pointing out how your case on me is about one thing - yet is still able to be your strongest read, thus showing how shallow your analysis of my case is because you refuse to accept that a case based on 'one thing' could possibly be my strongest read.

Well there is a couple problems with this. For one, your one reason for voting wgeurts was based on

one

action. My one reason for voting you was based on a

pattern

of inaction. The second problem is that this isn't the only thing that makes me feel you are scum. It's the most important thing I think, but it's not the only thing. I also think that you are doing a good job of controlling the conversation. You have almost 40 more posts than every player other than droog, whose posts are clear and concise. Your's are not. Posting a lot isn't scummy, but in my experience, posting a lot when most of it is trying to argue against someone over and over, is indicative of scum. Not only does it work to tear down the character of those you are opposing, but it also leads the conversation exactly where you want it. That being said, I like my other reason a lot better than this one, which is why we've been talking about that.

Heck, it overlooks that my issue with Blair had one reason also - it was really a wonky attack.

hmm, this seems like more than one reason no? You even numbered them for us just to be clear that you had multiple reasons!

1. She *was* attacking me.
2. She never attempted to ask for my logic.
3. She ignored that in Post 74 I explained my logic (allowing her to now assess whether it was or was not illogical - something she hasn't done.
4. When I asked her straight up what she was about (and in her later claim what she was about was asking me to explain my logic) she *dodged* answering.

[acryon]

I think that at least 1 of Blair/Thor is scum, possibly both. I also think that YYR is probably scum.

You are considering a Thor/Blair/Johnny scumteam?

I think Thor/YYR/Johnny is significantly more probably, but I'm not ruling out that team.

[acryon]

the thor wagon is not moving today
everyone loves to attack thor but no one wants to commit

personally i want some more flips before thor/blair

so join me on the yyr slot

VOTE: vote: fink

I would much rather see the Thor wagon get there, but I would be willing to switch to YYR if we get too close to deadline.

[acryon]

We also still have 10 days, so I plan on riding this train until that time.

[acryon]

How about Dyx, do you have Dyx as town? Let's flip Dyx which will actually even give *insight* into the Thor/Blair false dilemma people are excited about.

Dyx is null to me right now. I think a Thor flip would be good.

[acryon]

Alright, updated reads list as promised. Let's see if I can do this without boring anyone to death.

acryon

- I initially had a fairly good town read on him based on his entrance and his interactions with people. However, he's since moved down to the null/lean scum category. His reads list in 382 seems to be all over the place....certain people with content are null while others are lean-scum, and some of his other reasoning for reads is extremely weak (imo). The argument about voting for your top scum read seems to be reaching a bit far in my mind. In many of my games, we would rarely have a not-deadline lynch if everyone voted for just their top scumread. The fact that he uses that as part of his scumread on Thor bothers me as well. He also mentions that Thor and Blair have "monopolized the thread", but then starting in 454 he takes on Blair's mantle and does the same thing. In my previous reads I had listed that I felt the Blair/Thor argument was town/town, but I'm not getting that same feeling with the acryon/Thor interaction. He also continues to refer to YYR well after he replaced, which makes me think he's not even paying attention to the Fink replacement.

I specifically was talking about Thor dominating the thread, not Blair. Although the Blair/Thor discussion was big, as was the Thor/me discussion, the two have a common thread. If you think I'm not paying attention the the Fink replacement, how is that scummy? Since you think it is scummy, do you also think it is scummy that Thor referred to a YYR lynch 5 posts above yours? Seems like you're stretching.

You are correct, Droog did first use the term "useful scumhunting". The phrase that I disliked was when Dys said "I don't think "useful scumhunting" looks like something in particular". If there was nothing else to my argument but that, I would have definitely just let it pass by as an "I don't like it", but not necessarily as a scum tell IMO. However, considering I already didn't like other things about her posts, it was just another point on the scuminess scale for me. The only reason I ever went back to it specifically was because Dys asked me about it - I never brought it up again of my own volition.

I'm sorry, but how is this scummy at all? As an extension of that, since you must believe that useful scumhunting does look like something in particular, what do you think that is?

Honestly, I find my own reads much more worth discussing than YYR doing one weird thing and then posting "I'll catch up tomorrow, I swear" a few times.

I definitely agree, but we also can't ignore what YYR did before you, because it did happen. I think people are stuck on focusing on one or the other. I'm not convinced that we should read your contribution with a heavier weight simply because it is so much better and there is a lot more of it, as that could easily be scum over-compensating for the weak slot your replaced into. We have to weigh both your and YYR's actions in the context that they existed in.

If Blair is scum and Thor is scum: Why would they ever do this? No one is pressuring them to get into a situation like this, I find it pretty unlikely. Does anyone have a good reason for the Blair-Thor scumteam to act this way? I think someone proposed this as a both-or-neither (acryon?).

I have seen this multiple times IRL, and in my very first game on this site, this exact scenario happened with two scum interacting very early in the game the same way Blair and Thor did.

I will STOP as soon as people stop saying stuff like "not reading Thor/Blair".
Until then you ARE being lazy.
If it offends you - never use that excuse again and I will never call you lazy again, I consider that a fair offer.

Interesting that you are calling people lazy for not reading when you are not reading their posts. This isn't a scum-tell, just stupid. But it does tie into Thor's clear desire to dominate the game.

[acryon]

Another reason I ended up voting for Blair instead of Thor is that when I made my big list of Blair quotes on the previous page, it stood out to me that she kept undercutting Dys while seeming to defend her. Maybe it was just a weak defense of a weak read, but it seems more likely to me at the moment that it's a good way to support a mislynch without being one of the early people driving that mislynch.

Thoughts?

So do you think a scum-Blair would have tried to change her mind at some point and hop on the wagon, or continue to sow distrust while trying to White Knight?

Do you have answers to the questions I posed in my post?

[acryon]

I did notice acryon refering to YYR well after the replacement as well. Didn't like that tbh. I still feel acryon's push on Thor doesn't make total sense, but I don't see it as very scummy, I think because it's something he actually believes? I'd like to interact more with acryon. Hi acryon.

Hi

Acryon: Are you still null on Phillammon?

I would say Phil is null-scum to me right now. I don't like the move onto Dys, especially this:

I deleted this, cause it didn't say much either way. New replacement new read.

So I was about to pronounce Dys "null-town but making some odd statements" until I saw this. This right here worries me.

Town Behaviour: Make reads on players in order to determine who is scum, in order to find out which slots are scum.
Not Town Behaviour: Make reads on players in order to determine who, in the subset of

slots

who are NOT scum, most looks like scum, in order to find out which

players

can be run up for a mislynch.

I agree with the behavior claims made here, but I don't agree that they apply to Dys in that post. Especially since YYR had so little actual content, taking what little content Fink had provided at that time into account is pretty important for developing the whole picture. One of the best ways to find scum is seeing them being opportunistic with wagons, and this could be a case of that.

@Acyron

Hey Acyron! You want a reason to vote someone besides Thor? If Thor were scum, do you think he'd let his partner be this useless (whoever they are)?

Yes. Thor is doing a fine job on his own I think, so you don't really need another person putting themselves out there so strongly.

Acyron seems absolutely locked onto you, not really entertaining other options. No it isn't much of a defense of you, honestly you're not that strong of a town read for me, but I think it's a good reason not to vote for you at the moment. That, and your wagon not going anywhere.

My point on Phil isn't that he's jumping at every oppurtunity; it's that he's taking oppurtunities for very little reason, trying to provide minimal ties from himself to his votes. At the same time, I think he's being very cautious (overly so) and not wanting to change his mind or his vote too much. I don't see an inconsistency there.

I have stated this already, but I can and will move my vote closer to deadline to ensure we don't no-lynch. At the moment though, my vote stays where my scum-read is.

is it just me or is the entirety of acryon's 136 really namby pamby
thats a lame insult sooooooo

" I don't like when players seem to be stifling discussion. "
"You have nothing better to say, so you tell someone else the things they are saying are dumb? Not sure I get this. "
"What the heck is this? Why would someone hammer this early and in the middle of discussion... Thank God cheetory was a sniper."
"This didn't seem genuine to me. It's easy to say in response to someone calling you out that it was just banter, but I don't think I buy that."

Meh. As much as I hate meta, feel free to look through mine and you'll see more of the same.

Aaaaand I'm L-1. Wow, leave for the weekend with no votes and come back on the chopping block.

I'm still not interested in moving my vote, because I still think Thor is most likely to be scum, but I would urge you to think about the information gained from my flip vs. someone like Dys or Phil. At least if one of those two happen to flip town, I think we have something to work with, but there isn't much to work with from mine.

In the chance that I am getting lynched, my current reads are:
Blair - Lean-town
Phil - Lean-scum
Shadowz - Lean-town
Thor - Scum
droog - Town
Fink - Town
Dys - Lean-scum
DCLXVI - Town

[acryon]

4. 465 and 467 by Droog is excellent posting, he just takes apart acroyn's argument.

Just reading through again. This is now the second person that has said this, except that I had an answer for his comments, and not a person has said how I am wrong at all in my responses (please, explain if you think I am or if my responses weren't correct). And no one ever even addressed the end of that exchange between me and droog. This casts extra suspicion on DCLXVI IMO, so if and when I am lynched, pay attention to that.

[acryon]

respot those responses please

Do you always vote your #1

Yes, unless it is nearing deadline and I can't get a wagon finished in time for my #1, then I may vote my #2 or #3 to avoid a costly no-lynch. Do you not always vote the person you think has the highest chance of being scum except in the scenario I listed? Because that makes no sense.

ergo
under certain conditions town votes for #2 or lower

now tell me why thor's vote was not such a condition

No, I didn't say under certain conditions. I said under one condition, and it certainly didn't meet the criteria of that one. The only reason to ever not choose your #1 is if there is no time to complete a wagon. Otherwise, why would you ever go with the choice with a lower chance. That is completely illogical.

What do you think of me not voting fins

Bins? It depends. Votes are generally used for two reasons. To pressure or intent to lynch. If your vote is being used to do the latter, like Thor's was, then it should be on your #1 scum-read, unless the scenario I discussed before is in play.

[acryon]

@acryon

1. We only have 5 days left, do you really think it likely a Thor wagon is going to start and get to 5 votes in that number of days?

2. How close to the deadline do we have to be for you to compromise on your top scumread? At what point do you think refusing to move hurts town's ability to make a reasoned decision?

3. What do you think of the wagon on you?

4. Why do

you

think Phil looks scummy-leaning?

1. I think it is non-impossible, but quite unlikely that a Thor wagon could gain momentum, but I do think it is worth keeping my vote to send the message that I am serious about thinking he is scum, and I don't want to let him off the hook.

2. I don't see how abstaining from voting for someone else hurts the town's ability to make a reasoned decision. If my vote were to go anywhere, it would go to Dys or Phil, but as I've implied, I'm less convinced that they are scum than I am of Thor as scum. I think keeping my vote on Thor benefits town more than switching to one of those others, for the reasons I answered in 1.

3. If people honestly don't see what I see, then the wagon makes sense I guess. They are wrong, and I certainly think there are better options for lynches to reveal information(Dys and Phil both fit that I think).

4. When reading through, I really felt that 558 especially felt opportunistic. Following that, it seems like other people agreed, but since I didn't post until so much later, it's impossible to prove that was an original thought. 672 didn't feel genuine. 297 isn't particularly good. I don't think activity is a town tell even a little bit. I would guess that at least half of scum are the biggest talkers. Certain comments of his just don't say anything, 455 being a primary example "So, having gone over Dyx's ISO, some initial thoughts. These posts are basically alternating between walls of text and fluff. I can't really fault that, though I'd prefer for something approximating moderation between the two, though that's non-indicative of alignment. Also hypocritical of me, given my posting history so far. I' mostly going to be zeroing in on #178, #286 and #321, as the three main walls of text and likely where useful stuff is going to be, if anywhere."

[acryon]

Like, functionally at this point, Acro is lynched and Phil is L-1.
Work from that perspective.

Come on people. This is so terrible. I really hope we don't lose as a town because you allowed someone to so easily try to dictate the game like this. It does seem like I am going to be lynched, but please get Thor next.

[acryon]

Also, regarding hurting town's ability to make a reasoned decision, I feel like Thor deciding for people what they are doing is a good example of that.

[acryon]

Also, regarding hurting town's ability to make a reasoned decision, I feel like Thor deciding for people what they are doing is a good example of that.

I don't know, Thor's comment that the two most likely lynch candidates end up voting for each other seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Why do you think that comment is scummy, rather than just aggressive/presumptious?

It's not inherently scummy, but it is all about context and climate. I believe (whether anyone else does or not) that Thor is using his posts, as scum, to direct the town in the direction he wants. This posts of his, while not scummy in and of itself, shows Thor's grip on the town, even if he is just stating something that seems obvious. By proclaiming it the way he did, he is getting the town to accept this situation that benefits him. Even if there is a 90% chance of the situation he posed happening, by stating it in the way he did, he is trying to eliminate that 10% by convincing the town that it isn't there.

1. I think it is non-impossible, but quite unlikely that a Thor wagon could gain momentum, but I do think it is worth keeping my vote to send the message that I am serious about thinking he is scum, and I don't want to let him off the hook.

That message is obvious. Why is that more important to you than applying pressure to pressurable people? What do you think voting for Thor is actually accomplishing if you die when Phil comes back?

The pressure on Phil will still be there after I die; the pressure on Thor won't. If I die with my vote on Thor, then at least that will remain as something to be referenced. Moving my vote to Phil will only help add to a wagon that has plenty of momentum on its own.

2. I don't see how abstaining from voting for someone else hurts the town's ability to make a reasoned decision. If my vote were to go anywhere, it would go to Dys or Phil, but as I've implied, I'm less convinced that they are scum than I am of Thor as scum. I think keeping my vote on Thor benefits town more than switching to one of those others, for the reasons I answered in 1.

Your vote isn't applying any pressure to anyone. Thor is not shaking in his boots with fear that he's getting lynched today. If you always abstain until the last possible minute, it makes town react based on urgency rather than talking it through. Thoughts?

And while you're at it, why are you still talking about voting for Dys? What in the last few pages makes you think a vote there is going to do any good?

See my response just above this as to what I think my Thor vote is doing. I think you do make a good point, but my vote isn't for pressure right now. It is an intent-to-lynch vote which, although "useless" right now, will be beneficial for future pressure I think.

I just mentioned Dys and Phil as the two, because they are two that I have light scum-reads on. I think a Dys wagon could potentially get there, although there is a less of a chance at that than a Phil wagon.

3. If people honestly don't see what I see, then the wagon makes sense I guess. They are wrong, and I certainly think there are better options for lynches to reveal information(Dys and Phil both fit that I think).

Who's the scummiest person on your wagon besides Thor?

If Phi flips scum, who is your top suspect?

If Phil flips town, who is your top suspect?

The scummiest person on my wagon besides Thor is probably DCLXVI. If Phil were to be lynched and flip scum, then our last scum is Thor. If he flips town, I think it's Thor and probably Dys or DCLXVI.

to wildly pick and choose

They are wrong, and I certainly think there are better options for lynches to reveal information(Dys and Phil both fit that I think).

so

you admit that lynches to reveal information can be good
but still maintain that votes should always be on your top suspect

there's a bad disconnect there

No, there is not a bad disconnect. And no, I did not admit that lynches to reveal information can be good. Information can be a positive outcome from a bad lynch, but it doesn't mean the lynch is/was good. I have and continue to believe that people should be voting for their top scum suspect, but I know that I am town, so I know that all you will gain from lynching me is the information that I am town. Given that your current lynch will gain my useless flip, there are better options than me. Call it picking the lesser of evils.

[acryon]

If Phi flips scum, who is your top suspect?

If Phil flips town, who is your top suspect?

@ Acryon

To clarify, tell me what you think we would learn in either of those hypothetical flip situations. Don't just say Thor and Thor. Look away from the tunnel for a moment please.

I think I'm still happy with my answer that I gave, seeing this now, and I apologize if it isn't quite what you're looking for. I can't simply ignore the person I know is scum; that would just result in me giving bad information or shedding extra negative light on someone that deserves it less than Thor.

[acryon]

@acryon

Okay, but what

information

do we gain from lynching Phil then? Those sound like the same information we might have now, just with some more certainty of wrongness on someone's part.

If we lynch Phil and he flips town, in what way does that make DCLXVI seem more likely scum?

Well the problem with me is that I have been tunneling pretty hard on Thor. It makes sense to me, because I am very confident he is scum. But when I flip town, the only thing you will get is that the dead townie really suspected Thor, and you already know that of me now. If Phil dies, at this point I'm not 100% sure what we get, as I haven't completely looked to connect the dots to be honest, but it is certainly more than zero, which is approximately what we get from killing me. Initial thoughts are Dys and Fink both look a little worse.

And it's not that I think Phil flipping town and DCLXVI being more scummy are directly correlated. It's more PoE at that point to me. DCLXVI is the most scummy after Thor, Dys, and Phil to me, so given Phil-town, by PoE, I think the remaining scum are Thor and either Dys or DCLXVI.

[acryon]

@Acryon, can you explain your read on me please, and why/how it changed?

In the chance that I am getting lynched, my current reads are:
Blair - Lean-town
Phil - Lean-scum
Shadowz - Lean-town
Thor - Scum
droog - Town
Fink - Town
Dys - Lean-scum

DCLXVI - Town

The scummiest person on my wagon besides Thor is probably DCLXVI

. If Phil were to be lynched and flip scum, then our last scum is Thor. If he flips town, I think it's Thor and probably Dys or DCLXVI.

Can you explain this change from town -> scum in your read on me

Is this following quote the only reason, or was there more there that I was missing?

4. 465 and 467 by Droog is excellent posting, he just takes apart acroyn's argument.

Just reading through again. This is now the second person that has said this, except that I had an answer for his comments, and not a person has said how I am wrong at all in my responses (please, explain if you think I am or if my responses weren't correct). And no one ever even addressed the end of that exchange between me and droog. This casts extra suspicion on DCLXVI IMO, so if and when I am lynched, pay attention to that.

To be fair, I said you were the scummiest person besides Thor on my wagon. You are still the 4th scummiest person I think, and not even very scummy. But I was asked who is most scummy on my wagon other than Thor, and neither Dys or Phil were on my wagon, so of droog, you, and Shadowz, I do think you are the scum

miest

, but that doesn't mean I feel strongly at all about you being scum.

My extended thoughts on Acryon's "you must be voting your top scumread or you are scum" argument:

There are so many reasons for not voting your top suspect that Acryon's push on thor for allegedly doing so is completely and fully absurd.

I have and will continue to sometimes vote for players that aren't my top suspects. Potentially reasons include:

1. Probability of someone getting lynched
2. Wanted to put pressure on a scumread and force a response
3. As a way to point out someone that other people are not paying attention to (showing the seriousness of your read on someone)
4. Deadlines (Lynching is almost always better than not lynching in most setups)

And guess what, if you aren't voting the person you would have as your top suspect, what are you going to do? Keep putting pressure on them by talking about them...

The idea that Thor should be scum because he was voting one person and putting pressure on another is against just plain silly. I have a hard time believing that acryon actually believes it either.

1. I still completely disagree. If the town has plenty of time, and I am placing an intent-to-lynch vote, it's on the person I think is most likely to be scum. It is completely illogical and bad play to do otherwise. As long as there is a non-zero chance of getting a wagon going, it is mathematically wrong to vote for the person that has a lesser chance of being scum. It just doesn't make sense.
2. I already addressed this. Votes are either intent-to-lynch or pressure, and Thor's vote on wgerts wasn't a pressure vote, so this doesn't apply.
3. This is basically the same as #2, pressure/awareness.
4. This was the caveat I mentioned.

[acryon]

i like your pounce

everything ive wanted to say has been covered by 666 pretty well already

I went ahead and re-posted that conversation you asked for. Any thoughts?

[acryon]

So in my opinion Shaddowez had by far the scummiest jump onto the Acryon wagon. DCLXVI came into the game, read it, and placed a vote on a non-existant wagon that turned out to be pretty damn viable, that doesn't seem scummy to me at all. Thor has been jumping at the bit to get a lynchable wagon going (something I don't actually read as scummy coming from him right now) and has never had much read on Acryon. I have 0 difficulty believing Thor would see Acryon as a viable lynch candidate and a perfectly reasonable compromise. Droog had been catching up on the last several days and saying for a while he needed to reevaluate things, when he came back, he moved his vote based on the other two responses and preferring Acryon to Phil I think. Shaddowez just kind of came and tagged on to a rapidly rising wagon to put it into lynch range.

IMO Scummiest-> Towniest looking only at how votes were placed on the Acryon-wagon is Shaddowez > Droog > Thor > DCLXVI

I'm really surprised Acryon isn't looking at this sort of thing

at all

and it certainly brings me closer to wanting to hammer him. Especially given that Acryon had Shaddowez as only a lean town before, while DCLXVI was a straight up town read. Acryon seems completely disinterested in explaining this, he seems to have 0 interest in scumhunting, just in pushing his one target.

Also, Acryon, don't say it's "mathematically wrong" when you obviously aren't doing any math.

Spoiler: math example using numbers pulled out of my ass, because I'm annoyed at the phrase "mathematically wrong"

Let's say Thor has a 5% chance of getting lynched today (I think that's being generous.)
Let's say you are overconfident and think Thor has a 75% chance of voting scum.
Not counting yourself, assuming Thor is scum, there are 7 people left. Looking at your reads list, let's say you have no interest in voting for me or Droog, so there is 1 scum in 5 people if you assume Thor is scum. That means, even if your scum read on Phil were tied with Blair/DCLXVI/Shaddowez/Dys (i.e. I'm

seriously

underestimating this because you say he's your #2 scum read), that gives Phil a 20% chance of being scum to you.
So by voting for Thor, you have a ~4% chance of lynching scum.
Let's say you could vote for Phil and make it 50-50 that he gets lynched (it's probably a bit less than that, but you get my point, since if you're town, you know you are town and shouldn't desire that outocem.)
Then you'd have a 10% chance of lynching scum by voting Phil, accounting for him being town 80% and maybe not being lynched.
In this case, by not voting, you're making it LESS likely that your scum reads will be lynched, since presumably you have yourself as a town read.

IT IS MATHEMATICALLY REASONABLE TO VOTE FOR YOUR LESSER SCUM READ.

Okay, so that math example was probably pointless, but GRRRRRRRR

But that math is wrong, and you're over complicating things. I'm talking about personal choice, which is of course based on probabilities you (somewhat arbitrarily) assign to your feelings, so it is as simple as I think Thor has a 90% chance of being scum, which is greater than Dys/Phil who have, let's say 40% chance. The most simplistic comparative mathematics, but still math, so relax.

Shadowz may have had the scummiest jump on my wagon, but I don't think, overall, that his slot is more scummy than DCLXVI. There is more to it than just why each of them is on my wagon.

[acryon]

if we dont have mafia nightkills
why are we constrained by deadlines at all

Excellent point... From the rules...

In the event deadline is reached before a lynch has occurred, there will be a No Lynch.

This, imho, is a very big mod error. A setup with mafia kills forces the town to take action otherwise the mafia gets an advantage. In a nightless game, a setup should allow for the person with the highest vote total to be lynched at the end of each day otherwise there could be a stalemate.

However, even if the deadline technically is pointless. I vote that we lynch someone before it because that is how the game is meant to be played.

Oh wow, yeah I definitely didn't even think of that either. I guess that doesn't necessarily change much in the grand scheme, but it does make me re-think my reasons for voting/moving my vote since there essentially isn't a deadline.

[acryon]

@Acryon - why do you rule out Dys as my partner? Since they are 2nd or 3rd most likely scum, but if Phil flips town then #4 DC jumps into being my partner - why not #2-3 Dys?

I didn't rule out Dys as your partner. At this point, I think the most likely teams are you/Phil or you/Dys.

[acryon]

Ugh, especially given this new revelation about how this game will work, I have (mostly) played this game like crap. I still stand by my thoughts that Thor is scum with probably Phil/Dys as partner, but other than that I have done a pretty terrible time explaining myself.

[acryon]

If I didn't know that lynching me doesn't help town at all, I would tell you to just lynch me, because I have unfortunately probably done town a lot less good than I intended at this point =\

[acryon]

it is as simple as I think Thor has a 90% chance of being scum, which is greater than Dys/Phil who have, let's say 40% chance.

There are 2 scum out of 8 other people in the game at the moment. Everyone has a 25% chance of being scum if you vote at random. 75% is overconfident. 90% is SERIOUSLY overconfident. Your case on Thor is weak. How the hell do you have a 90% certainty that he's scum based on Day 2? I don't see how anyone could be 90% certain of

anyone

right now. And my math was really basing things

in your favor

, I went with the assumption that Phil was 20% scum. I (and presumably you) think it's actually significantly higher than that.

You're pretending to have done analysis you obviously haven't done.

Not really, because I already said that the percentages were assigned based on confidence levels. At any point, you are working on that, even if you are saying there is a 20% chance of Phil being scum, there are a >0 amount of percentage points added based on confidence levels.

Shadowz may have had the scummiest jump on my wagon, but I don't think, overall, that his slot is more scummy than DCLXVI. There is more to it than just why each of them is on my wagon.

And it would be lovely if you'd share these things with us, especially as your respective reads on DCLXVI and Shaddowez changed seemingly based on nothing. And I really think, if you believe you're town (which you obviosuly do or say you do regardless), you should be puttingsome serious weight as to why people jump onto wagons aiming to lynch townies. It's weird that you don't. It's

suspicious

that you don't care about this.

My reads on them didn't change based on nothing, but that also wasn't what we were talking about. Not everyone publicly proclaims every small change in read on every player. I did so because I was asked and on the verge of lynch, so I provided what I had, whether little or large.

[acryon]

I think the format and pace of this game really threw me through a loop, so apologies to the town for not helping like I wish I could have.

[acryon]

@ Acryon

But you haven't explained thet non-nothing reason for your reads changing at all. You are dangling at the end of a rope here, you should probably do so.

And also, you fail math. Whether or not that makes you townie or scummy, how about you lay off saying things mathematically don't make sense.

Actually, there are assumptions being made either way, so it completely depends on what weight is applied to the assumptions. You just happened to put less weight on your's, presumably because our confidence levels aren't matching up.

Like where does this come from:

No one has really summed it up in one place. Even though I think he's a lesser scum read than Phil by a reasonable amount, I think he's got a higher than average (i.e. better than 25%) chance of being scum and so I think it's a reasonable lynch. He's also going to be completely useless even if he is town.

I guess I'll write up a summary of the main points against him for you, hold on a minute. (Assuming you don't mind a case from the least commited voter on the wagon.)

Certainly not a fool-proof statistical set of rules.

Given droog's logic about who is useful in the end makes sense, I'm okay with this. I want to give it some more time to talk/allow people to make a good point against this, but I'm okay with it. Even if Acryon isn't scum, he's not town that I would trust to make any important decision. He's just going to vote for Thor for the rest of the game.

I definitely didn't say I was going to vote for Thor the rest of the game, and the realization that there are no NKs/Deadlines certainly changes things as well.

And wow we got a big wall here, so let's cut them up 1 by 1.

@ Blair

The case on Acryon as I see it

Acryon has 0 interest in scumhunting.
He doesn't see any point in looking at his wagon and the way people got on it for scum influence.

Wrong. I said that I ranking people based on my []overall[/i] scum-reads of them, not just the way people got on my wagon. This overall read

includes

the way they got on my wagon. At no point did I say I saw no point in that. Never.

He doesn't want to ever vote for anyone besides Thor, even to help pressure people like active-lurking Phil to talk to us.

Wrong again. If I felt Phil needed more pressure, I would move my vote to him. As I've said before, you can vote for pressure or for intent-to-lynch. I am capable of both, but didn't find a circumstance where I thought the former was necessary so I stuck to the latter.

He doesn't have any non-Thor related opinions. At no point has he attempted to make any more of an argument on why we should be voting for Thor, he's just happy to park his vote there.

If you actually read my earlier posts about Thor, you would see I had more than one reason for voting for him. This is very reductive, but I believe he has been trying to manipulate town by controlling the conversation and subtly making blanket statements to set the tone how he wants it, and I believe the manner in which he kept his vote on wgerts and the reasoning for it were scum-motivated.

His main reason for us not to vote for him is that we'd get more information out of a Phil or Dys lynch, but then he doesn't have any idea of what we'd get from that other than process of elimination.

My main reason for you note to vote for me is because I'm town, but if you're going to lynch town anyways, it makes more sense to lynch someone who hasn't been focused on one player for most of the game.

His reads on Shaddowez and XLVXI-whatever-it-is swapped when I asked him about who he suspected on his wagon. He hasn't given any reasoning for this. He never gave any reasoning for them to begin with, but he also is choosing not to explain now. It looks like there never

was

a reason for them.

They did not swap. Did I include every detail of my reasoning for each read? No, but that's because I was answering a simple question, and my reads that supported the answer weren't particularly developed, so it didn't make sense to share them.

It's not much, but I think having what look like made-up nonsense reads, when he has previously said that's useless, and him having 0 interest in looking for scum seem suspicious enough to put him above random-voting. And on top of that, even if he's town, he's shown he has no interest in being useful.

I suppose when Thor flips scum or wins as scum, I'll look a little less useless in hindsight. In the mean-time, I plan on moving around my vote where it needs to go, given my play-style isn't helping town. Once I get a little further from the rope, I plan on showing you that.

[acryon]

He's never responded to that last post of mine, only to the theory part of it that I was stupid enough to engage with him on. He's ignored the main ooint.

I did respond at the bottom of 749. I already agreed with you that he had the scummiest jump onto my wagon, but that doesn't mean he automatically becomes a major scum-read to me. Town can do things that look like scum, especially if that's already what you have in your mind regarding the person. It's possible that I am not putting enough weight on that reason, but I also think you may be putting too much weight. At the very least, it's not something I am going to forget about.

[acryon]

acryon, what do you make of fink

I think he is almost definitely town. He has been asking good questions since he came in with good follow-ups as well. Obviously he is wrong if he thinks I am scum, but I think his motives are right. I would be incredibly shocked if he wasn't town.

[acryon]

They did not swap. Did I include every detail of my reasoning for each read? No, but that's because I was answering a simple question, and my reads that supported the answer weren't particularly developed, so it didn't make sense to share them.

In the chance that I am getting lynched, my current reads are:
Blair - Lean-town
Phil - Lean-scum
Shadowz - Lean-town
Thor - Scum
droog - Town
Fink - Town
Dys - Lean-scum
DCLXVI - Town

To be fair, I said you

(DCLXVI)

were the scummiest person besides Thor on my wagon. You are still the 4th scummiest person I think, and not even very scummy. But I was asked who is most scummy on my wagon other than Thor, and neither Dys or Phil were on my wagon, so of droog, you, and Shadowz, I do think you are the scummiest, but that doesn't mean I feel strongly at all about you being scum.

I don't know when "Town" became scummier than "Lean-town", especially given how the two got on your wagon. You didn't include "every detail" of your reads because you didn't include

any

details of your reads. And it absolutely makes sense to share them, seeing as that's essentially the thing driving me to want to hammer you.

When I was giving out my final reads list, it was mostly off the top of my head, with, as you noted, no real explanations, as I was expecting to be hammered any second. My Town call on DCLXVI specifically, was based on my memory of what I had just read of DCLXVI's posts. Dumb, but I didn't really take into account Bins' posting as I should have. When I was asked specifically about my wagon, I was able to re-evaluate and go over again, now that I knew I had time. I probably should have mentioned how my reads changed, and probably should have included reasoning in the later post, but I wasn't exactly cross-referencing my response with my last-ditch reads list.

That being said, if someone else made this "slip", I would think it was scummy, so it is what it is.

[acryon]

When I was giving out my final reads list, it was mostly off the top of my head, with, as you noted, no real explanations, as I was expecting to be hammered any second. My Town call on DCLXVI specifically, was based on my memory of what I had just read of DCLXVI's posts. Dumb, but I didn't really take into account Bins' posting as I should have. When I was asked specifically about my wagon, I was able to re-evaluate and go over again, now that I knew I had time. I probably should have mentioned how my reads changed, and probably should have included reasoning in the later post, but I wasn't exactly cross-referencing my response with my last-ditch reads list.

That being said, if someone else made this "slip", I would think it was scummy, so it is what it is.

That's actually a reasonable explaination. Care to explain your reasoning now though?

I promise, I, at least, will not hammer you any second. I'll hammer you when it seems like we're not making any more progress from you being at L-1 and no one has shown any indication of switching to Phil yet.

Sure thing.

Bins/DCLXVI
-I didn't like Bins' read on Phil. She did admit that the null-town read on him was weak, but it still seemed like a read that should have lead to some pressure on Phil, but instead she sort of let him off the hook.
-Bins posted walls about Phil, Thor, and Blair, and then said nothing about Dys who was her "biggest scum-read reading through day one".
-Basically, after reading over it again, I realized how little content her primary big post actually had, and it just didn't seem like there was any motivation from her to actually follow-up on what scum-reads she had. Overall it was a bit fluffy.
-Already commented that I didn't like DCLXVI's comment about droog "taking apart my argument," as someone else already said this earlier, but neither one of them mentioned how. Just seemed like a bit of parroting.
-Didn't like how DCLXVI did all that reading and only ended up with my as a scum-read. Especially given that I am town, seems like a waste of effort.

I actually have completely run out of time for today, so I have to end it there, but if I am alive tomorrow, I will expand on my read of Shadowz.

[acryon]

Ahhh that was sooo close. WP all.

[acryon]

Sometimes a way to avoid accusations of being pushy for manipulation is just to push and manipulate even

harder

. WP Thor. Town was like clay in your hands. The replacements definitely saved us.