Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Heartless]

VOTE: grib
just from posts on this page alone

[Heartless]

Well fuck.

Heartless, content on gamestate ASAP, please and thank you.

And

VOTE: CptPicard

because this slot needs a nudge as well.

Actually, I'll make this easier.

Who are your scumreads, and why?

"well that sucks" + empty, throwaway vote + softballed faux "scumhunting"

trifecta of scum day starts

[Heartless]

dear grib,

thank you for voicing your concerns. we here at heartless industries are committed to providing quality posting and will take it under advisement. unfortunately due to personality differences, you may or may not experience discomfort in my tone and/or attitude. if you wish, you may choose to ignore me and speak with my associate TellTaleHeart though i unfortunately cannot guarantee a more sympathetic audience. for future concerns, i would like to refer you to our complaints department.

best regards,

antihero

[Heartless]

alright, elle's scum toooooooo

[Heartless]

The NJAC wagon looks really similar to the Elle wagon. Odd. Usually when there's competing wagons, there's actually two wagons.

scum were bussing and they found an opportunity to switch

[Heartless]

swag is giving elle a run for her money

[Heartless]

@Heartless: From about Page 26 onwards, elle's town posting outweighs her suspicious pre-Page 26 posting.

Y/N/M?

Antihero said this morning he thought elle's posting today was really scummy. Specifically, throwing out the generalization of "there are 2 scum on this wagon" without naming names. As for this page 26 "town" posting, I'll be the judge of that.

[Heartless]

I also noticed a change in elle's posting. She could have twigged to what was causing people to scum read her and adapted. If the posts in the middle look more town but both ends are scummy, it's a strong indicator to me that the underlying play is scum.

ok gc, why are you voting dave?

[Heartless]

alright let's have a looky loo at what happened day 1...

[Heartless]

btw, hi titus, it's nice to see you not acknowledge my existence

[Heartless]

...actually, i'm lying. i think it's pretty rude.

[Heartless]

i'm only on page 4, and grib is so obviously scum

i'm at about 95% with that read now

[Heartless]

well then it's not a towngame

your ISO is awkwardness central
the conversation w/ gc about the game is one of the most stilted and weird conversations i've ever seen between two human beings and you can hold it up next to your conversation about william+mary and that feels natural

[Heartless]

alright, ya'll remember when i said elle was scum?

i actually didn't. you must have taken too many mushrooms and hallucinated that.

druggie.

you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Heartless]

grib/gc/awesomeusername interactions feel like scum theater

everything's exaggerated, the reactions are hammed up, and it's all just..
,,....weird

i keep repeating that word, but it's the most fitting

[Heartless]

also, swag's obvtowned himself p nicely early on. who was voting him today and what the hell for?

same thing for dave. gc's vote on him sucks

[Heartless]

i just isoed the mod and grib's vote is stickier than a porn addict's keyboard

holy

shit

this

slot
is


so


SCUM

[Heartless]

Heartless is town.

hello random person who knows me's alt

jingle?

mastin?

[Heartless]

i'm trapped in a god-forsaken pit full of scum

[Heartless]

It's Antihero. Learn to recognize alts.

etl

[Heartless]

He hasn't laid anything out, except that I'm obvious scum.

you'll be hearing from

my lawyer

tth soon

[Heartless]

He hasn't laid anything out, except that I'm obvious scum.

well for one, you're asking everyone and their grandma for reads but the basis of your votes are skeletal and anemic

[Heartless]

well lone ranger's entrance sucks

[Heartless]

sneaky sneaky sneaky

[Heartless]

mala, i know you're scum and i haven't read a single one of your posts yet

how does this make you feel?

[Heartless]

I will admit I have a habit of leaving my vote on a person when I'm trying to get reads on other people. I don't see it as alignment indicative.

orly?

elle, instead of narrowing your lynchpool for silly reasons, why don't you vote and scumhunt?

Tell me whom you'd like dead and why.

[Heartless]

@Heartless:

ok gc, why are you voting dave?

I ISO'd my four suspicions from yesterday (elle, dave, Ranger, Fairies/Picard), and picked the one that bothered me the most.

this is a remarkably shitty scum pool

i'd really like to know how you came up with these names

[Heartless]

Whatisswag, I like you for town but for the love of God, please stop picking on awesomeusername and davesaz for lurking when NJAC is the king of null voids and empty promises.

grib+awesomeusername best scum buds 4 ever

[Heartless]

Let's see the options.

awesomeusername

- 1 - Whatisswag - (L-6)

I still stand by Post 504 that swag's associative suspicions aren't worth anything. Ranger's observations of his hedging in Post 419 and Post 430 is legit, though, and is worth scum points.

CorpsesInEthanol

- 1 - Riddleton - (L-6)

Hey this guy is still being voted by another guy who is still voting him. The hydra appears to be half dead. Corpses apparently doesn't have the energy to keep the hydra active in this game for some reason. Boo.

davesaz

- 1 - Green Crayons - (L-6)

Meh, but sure.

elleheathen

- 4 - CorpsesInEthanol, Cheetory6, Grib, davesaz - (L-3)

Meh, but sure.

Grib

- 1 - NJAC - (L-6)

No.

Kaboose

- 1 - Lone Ranger - (L-6)

Disagree with everything Ranger has said. dave has a somewhat valid point in Post 588 w/r/t Kaboose's NJAC vote, but I was also tempted to vote NJAC after reading Grib's NJAC complaint, so I see where a Kaboose-town would be coming from to vote NJAC.

NJAC

- 1 - Kaboose - (L-6)

Wouldn't be the worst thing for one of the lurkers to be lynched.

Whatisswag

- 1 - I Love Fairies - (L-6)

swag is still town.

Out of the lurkers, though, I think I would opt for Fairies over others. She has been sufficiently active to not be a complete nonentity, but I don't think she has provided much in the way of substantive contribution. Even her swag suspicions/vote in Post 476 feel really outdated - like she saw that swag got some heat at some point in time, and so she thought he'd be a safe vote at a time when her Riddle vote was getting stale.

VOTE: Fairies

UNVOTE:
VOTE: I Love Fairies

This wagon has my support.

elle, the more you lurk, the less I care about lynching elsewhere.

lol, I love that this comes right after one of my posts. Srsly.

You're a special kind of lurker.

I'd like you to scumhunt, or vote, or push someone, or at least do something that shows you aren't going to die quietly if you do end up being the lynch. It feels like you've given up and are just posting to post. I mean if your latest posts are your version of scumhunting, then forget what I've said.

jfdklsaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw8jisdao;fds8afjepoajisaf

i just want a million day vigs shots right now

[Heartless]

Yes, really.

so, what, elle is scum b/c she's not voting

,,so what's going on w/ you?

[Heartless]

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect~

I'll definitely catch up on this game tomorrow, but one thing which I'm not understanding is why WiS is pushing for the riddle lynch when 4 replacements are needed. He's trying to get us into night and most likely stay in night.

I don't like that, but based on a bit that I skimmed of ISO this doesn't feel like the scum-WiS i played in his first newbie game.

lol mala is so scum

[Heartless]

awesomeusername exited the game w/ a fence-shaped bruise on his ass

mala entered in the same tradition w/ a hedged read on swag.

[Heartless]

yeah, read that

also ignored it b/c it's bullshit

[Heartless]

alright, all caught up now

gib
mala
greencrayons

^^^will lynch any of these they're all scum

[Heartless]

also

lone ranger

knows me from tth, implies familiarity w/ tth

also a smartass

sthar or jingle?

maybe thor, but thor hates my guts i doubt it

i would say f16 it's kind of his writing style, but he doesn't know tth...

hm......

[Heartless]

definitely

[Heartless]

my townreads are: elle, dave, Whatisswag, Kaboose, titus

[Heartless]

well i don't like your face

[Heartless]

alright, all caught up now

gib
mala
greencrayons

^^^will lynch any of these they're all scum

I agree with the Grib and Malakittens scumreads, but I think Kaboose rounds out that ensemble a lot better than Green Crayons.

[Heartless]

That has very little to do with whether or not you disagree with Anti and a lot more to with the fact that you're not fooling me, hon.

[Heartless]

Happy to oblige.

VOTE: Kaboose

[Heartless]

Grib, your Kaboose read is quite stale. What is it now?

[Heartless]

Post 951 was made by Antihero, who apparently has a soft spot in his heart for scum.

Post 979 on is me. Hi, I'm TTH!

[Heartless]

Kaboose tends to write walls, but most of the early real estate is taken by pointed swipes at people with no follow up. A good example of what I'm talking about is Post 174. The pointed response to awesomeusername, "What do you want to talk about? Would you like to talk about your slip in this post on GC and how you wanted to toss his name in with town reads mere sentences after a no read?" is especially off since there's no follow up by either party. The points raised on Whatisswag are relatively minor and don't form a core to a well developed read. This type of posting continues with examples such as: Post 194, Post 200, Post 249, Post 323, the list goes on.

The vote itself is very "sticky" and there's not much of an effort to develop the Ethanol read past the vote. There's no direct engagement of Ethanol nor is there any analysis of their posts. There's a forming read on dave in Post 323, but the vote doesn't move nor is there ever a great foundation for the dave scumread in the first place. The next vote on NJAC in Post 585 feels very unnatural and for show because he subverts the point of the vote by stating its purpose. For someone who seems to doubt himself and his own abilities (Post 323: " I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words...", among others) the rebuttals to attacks are quite abrasive. An example of this is the response to awesomeusername I provided earlier, Post 618, and Post 986.

The subsequent interaction with Lone Ranger is Awkward with a capital "A." Post 759 clearly implied either a town or scum read with not much indication that it could go either way. When pressed by Lone Ranger for reasons why it could be scummy, we see an arthritic backpedal with Post 765 and Post 767.

Despite the frequent walls, there's not much of a global outlook on the game and the opinions on slots are limited to only a handful of players. The lethargy in developing reads and pushing wagons stands in contrast to the prickliness that comes out when attacked, which gives a glimpse into the priority system at work: defense and survival. This is much more useful to scum than town.

I think Kaboose is scum.

[Heartless]

Hi.

Also, wow, that's annoying.

Please sign your posts.

I always capitalize my sentences while Anti never touches his shift key. Anti also tends to do weird things with typography because he's slightly insane. :p

Our writing styles are also quite different. You'll be able to tell the difference between us without us signing.

[Heartless]

Also, I don't find Heartless to be persuasive at all (haven't read their Kaboose wall yet but we'll see), but that's not really something we can argue objectively.

Overall, I think you're attacks are very potshot-ish and your clenched, rigid, unnatural approach to your reads is scummy. Anti picked up on that and I did too. The

only

thing that gives me reasonable doubt here is this post:

Pick someone. Literally anyone. I almost don't care anymore.

Also, why do you care

at all

.

You're voting me so you think I'm scum, yeah?
So why all the concern that your scumread isn't voting anyone?

I care because town or scum, your indecisiveness is pissing me off and, as far as I'm concerned, it makes you a useless blob. But to be honest, it's not even just you, I'm being crabby in general for lots of reasons. It doesn't help that I was really looking forward to playing this game and then half the players decided to replace out all at once and we hit a rut and I stopped having fun.

I'm voting you because I never bothered unvoting.

UNVOTE:

I'm down with lynching an inactive because fuck waiting for replacements.

Looking at Grib's ISO through the lens of someone who's disappointed and tired, the style might make sense.

[Heartless]

Why do you have a townread on GC?

I'm not sure why Anti is scumreading GC, but I might be townreading him because I appreciate and can relate to his posting style. I'm not sure.

[Heartless]

I'm going through a bit of an apathy spell and people tend to find me scummy no matter my alignment.

As for my "unnatural" approach to reading people, I don't care. It's my play style and not something that can really be fixed in the span of one game. I'd be happy to hear constructive criticism post game, if you have anything to say specifically about it.

Your pushes have a lot of holes in them. I also can't really track how your reads change over time and you always tend to be on easier people to push (dave and elle), while your scumread that actually has potential (Kaboose) goes nowhere.

A few of your posts also have a distinct "stick up the butt" feel. It could be accounted for by the post I quoted, though.

[Heartless]

I take the opposite view of elle.

As scum would know NJAC would flip town, it would benefit scum not to be on the lynch wagon. Why take the "easy lynch" bait when town could do it for them?

Trying to analyze a last second deadline wagon on a lurker seems like an exercise in futility.

[Heartless]

A few of your posts also have a distinct "stick up the butt" feel. It could be accounted for by the post I quoted, though.

Gee, thanks.

D'awwww... Yeah, I was mean.

I'm sorry, Gribby. Sometimes I just kind of say things and they don't really come out right. Either that, or it's that really I'm kind of a bitch and I just don't filter myself when I should. I haven't figured it out yet. :S

[Heartless]

D'awwww... Yeah, I was mean.

I'm sorry, Gribby. Sometimes I just kind of say things and they don't really come out right. Either that, or it's that really I'm kind of a bitch and I just don't filter myself when I should. I haven't figured it out yet. :S

STAHP

your not a bitch, and grib COMPLETELY has a stick up his ass

i missed the thing you quoted though........ that actually does kind of explain things

[Heartless]

greencrayon's "who was on anyway?" shtick is actually really frickin' scummy b/c it's a good way to look busy while not actually accomplishing jack shit

[Heartless]

@Heartless:

why is Kaboose scum?

^^^^^^also, there's no follow up to this^^^^^^^

tth bothered to give him the write up and he didn't say shit and opted to go for the red herring conversation elle was having about the last second wagon, which more has to do w/ scumhunting philosophy anyway not alignment

[Heartless]

Other than the conclusion.

the conclusion being what? that scum were actually off the wagon? how self-serving

and this is based on the presmise scum would town mislynch for them at deadline? you could argue with just as much validity that scum would take the zero accountability mislynch b/c of this site's aversion to no-lynches. it cuts both ways.

[Heartless]

Has Kaboose responded to TTH's case and I missed it?

lol there has to be a response before you evaluate a case?

[Heartless]

Do you mean to say

That scum would be both off and on the deadline wagon

Like I said?

probably, but it's still an arbitrary way to judge as the distribution is likely random (who was on at deadline is p close to random)

i could see them all being on the wagon just as easily as all of them being off. scumhunting from a particular group because of this assertion there's X-number of them in such-and-such group is a bad approach

[Heartless]

Boys, stop this. Get along.

[Heartless]

alright, read the kaboose case and i think it might be accounted for by style (though the backpedal she was talking about is really fucking weird and the pointedness in his responses to scumreads reads like butthurt caught scum)

tth is a lot smarter than i am and she has a knack for catching scum in my blind spot so vote stays

[Heartless]

i'm gonna' go do some pleasure reading of old kaboose games, see ya' in a little bit

[Heartless]

i didn't learn jack shit

[Heartless]

Their ISOs are dripping with town motivation to crack the game.

...and so the moonlogic begins...

[Heartless]

the claim is obv fake
ya'll have issues

[Heartless]

it's a newb trying to be a hero and faking a guilty

[Heartless]

I just don't think that the resulting conclusion is on point.

'mkay so what's your conclusion?

[Heartless]

...and this is based on.........................

[Heartless]

I hope you're not someone who just points at someone, and then calls them something until everyone just agrees with you. Is this your plan? Pick someone out and just casually call them what you want until everyone just kind of agrees with you because they've read it so much?

Antihero has a... unique style. He's an acquired taste, I will admit. And no, I'm (usually) not that way.

@Swag:

why did Cheetory want to recruit Kaboose?

Swag's claim was obviously not true for numerous reasons: he wasn't familiar with the mason mechanic at the beginning of the game and he didn't vote Kaboose to start Day 2. The context of the (obviously) fake "gladiator" claim in the immediately preceding post should make this even more apparent. The post I'm quoting here bothers me because it shows a level of naïveté that I don't think Green Crayons really has.

[Heartless]

That he's a lean town read.

Anti beat me to the punch here, but I'd also like to know how you support this conclusion.

[Heartless]

He is. He's been thoroughly exposed already. o_O

[Heartless]

Kaboose's 1077 would be what I would expect of him as scum regardless of the veracity of Swag's claim.

[Heartless]

As Titus already pointed out, Whatisswag was confused about the mason mechanics at the outset of the game. This alone is a strong indicator that he didn't get a mason card. His behavior coming into today also isn't indicative of someone who knows Kaboose is scum. There's another thing from Cheetory's activity that isn't necessarily pro-town to discuss, so I will refrain from doing so.

Your defensiveness here is also unwarranted, GC.

[Heartless]

Oh ho ho but Titus never mentioned that, Kaboose did, but wait I should thinking that Kaboose is scum in mentioning that, but wait hold on it's still valid, oh man my head is exploding.

The scum I saw in Kaboose's response was presenting all these various reasons why Swag may be fakeclaiming then diving at the least plausible one, that he just wants to out a mason, and then using a platitude "lynch all liars" to trumpet the crusade.

[Heartless]

Who does fake claims without producing actual content? Scum.

[citation needed]

We should be lynching Swag. Even in the worst instance (meaning that we all perceived his claim to be fake when it wasn't), we get a confirmed scum in Kaboose. If we mislynch Kaboose, then we don't get a confirmed scum in Swag as he'll just say "obvious fake claim for reaction. lolz".

...and if swag flips vt...?

i know you're not a newb, titus, why are you spouting all these newbish things?

[Heartless]

mod, i forgot that blue was your color. no impersonation was intended in the above post. for the record, all of that was me, everybody. sorry.

[Heartless]

It buys him a mislynch of someone who is largely townread.

lol

just in general, if you get scum read by tth in a game, your "univeral townread" is p much over

[Heartless]

Really, you need a citation that scum just don't announce "I'm SCUM!!!".. and they avoid content.

yes b/c i've seen fake guilties by town and swag actually fits the profile quite nicely

[Heartless]

Did I say universal? No. I said largely townread.

If someone is scumreading a slot, then the slot is not a universal townread.

not what i'm talking about. the tides would've turned

[Heartless]

Really, you need a citation that scum just don't announce "I'm SCUM!!!".. and they avoid content.

yes b/c i've seen fake guilties by town and swag actually fits the profile quite nicely

I don't think he does at all. They actually produce content and work with others by answering questions. They also make sure that the claim actually looks plausible. If I can shoot a claim down in five seconds, its tissue paper yo! I can't see crumbs to save my life.

lol no they don't

they do it out of either 1) some misguided notion that things need "shaking up" or 2) they need to shove their scum read down everyone's throat for their own good

[Heartless]

Elsewhere being NOT SWAG. Sorry that was unclear. It pretty much worked. Y'all think he's derpy VT rather than the scum he is...

and he still gets to produce no content.

i think he's derp town, but not b/c of the claim

[Heartless]

i mean, it's not even a mastermind move

1for1 scum for mason is really dumb on day 2

[Heartless]

yeah well, my brain is at least 80% pig shit, so i didn't pick up on that

[Heartless]

HEY
NO NEED FOR THAT KIND OF FUCKING LANGUAGE

[Heartless]

also, tth, plz look at elle when u have the chance thnx in advance

[Heartless]

this is newb town titus. i can go through his iso and yank out all the stuff that just does not come from newb scum.

Spoiler:

Btw, mine was a serious vote, in case anyone had not noticed.

You ask: Why lynch someone who is late at confirming?

1) They could be scum trying to have more pre-game planning.

2) They have a higher probability of being lurkers.

Lets quicklynch this fairy-dude by page two
VOTE: I love Fairies

Why not? quicklynches are fun

Example of a fun quicklynch: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=44815

I'd recruit a null read. Because there's no weak modifier (ie. I don't die if I misrecruit) it basically acts as a 1-shot cop.

I would actually recruit a town read. I would rather to be able to talk to a conf town then to find a mafia.

I have been thinking about this. I think recuriting someone who is active rather than someone who is a town read is a better choice.

... is explained in the unvote.

I think this is a town characteristic as this shows a slight bit of frustration. I would choose to be cautious and attempt to explain more deeply as scum. But 1 town characteristic is not enough for me to make a conclusion.

Again, robotic. I feel like Riddleton's joking around is exactly the kind of thing he'd do as any alignment. There was no way he'd actually get lynched for claiming shit.

Recklessness is a playstyletell, not an alignment tell.

This could be explained by you using outdated scumhunting methods. So your meta is actually not useless since I can go check to see if all this stuff is playstyle.

This is why I like to play with people I dont know. I dont get bias reads based on meta. To me Riddleton is town, I dont really care what it is to you as long as it does not affect me.

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

and i'm not even 1/8 of the way through the iso yet. everything just screams newbtown, as does the recent fakeclaim.

[Heartless]

probably town? that's another one on tth's docket.

[Heartless]

reinoe is not someone to take cues from, swag

[Heartless]

lol

not on ms it won't.

[Heartless]

Nor is Kaboose's. You are throwing out buzzwords with no support whatsoever. Kaboose's play ain't cautious and cautious is a personality indicator anyway. I am one of the most aggressive players. Period. Townreading players because of mere aggression says that your so called reads lack depth.

newbtell
newbtell
newbtell

and yeah, i consider being here half a year still a "newb"

[Heartless]

kinda' wondering how you're townreading kaboose and gc, titus

what are the reasons behind this?

[Heartless]

UNVOTE:

*whistles*
There is a

lot

of work to be done here. This will take a while.

[Heartless]

I haven't forgotten about this, I'm still doing it.

I don't. Even then, I consider his play a scum tell not a newb tell.

I've already explained how Kaboose is town. The fact Swag lies and says the posts mean the opposite of what they do means Kaboose is town.

Green Crayons meanwhile is spot on for that one game we have that Belisarius was the mod and he was town. I can't remember the name.

I think Anti's going about this the wrong way. Because of his stream of consciousness style Swag is going to be difficult to parse, but trying to zoom in on a few posts likely won't get you very good results since the sample size is so large and all over the place.

Meanwhile, Titus, is there any more to your argument that Green Crayons is town than meta evidence from a single game?

[Heartless]

I am leaning towards Mala being mislynch bait at this point. She has been vla for some time with her family. Turning the attention towards a lurker player when we have active scum in Swag open is a ploy I have seen quite a few times. It is further justified by cannot have in Lylo etc. while such lynches can be useful, those are better when we cannot agree on a scum read late game.

haha, what?

titus, nobody said we can't have mala in lylo. YOU were the one that said we can't have swag in lylo.

We should be lynching Swag. Even in the worst instance (meaning that we all perceived his claim to be fake when it wasn't), we get a confirmed scum in Kaboose. If we mislynch Kaboose, then we don't get a confirmed scum in Swag as he'll just say "obvious fake claim for reaction. lolz".

That's not the 'worst instance'. If it were actually that, losing a mason who has already served their purpose is not a worst instance situation when it guarantees us a scum lynch.

The worst instance situation is swag actually being town and lying about the mason claim. Because. That's just fucking stupid.

Then we remove a threat to us losing a lylo.

[Heartless]

also your argument that mala is lynchbait b/c ppl are "turning the attention" to her
doesn't
mesh up w/ your GC townread b/c i'm p sure he's the only one making a concerted effort against her right now

[Heartless]

turns out, i didn't use "concerted" correctly in the above post b/c... you know, brain is 80% pig shit.

point is that gc is the only one really leaning on mala right now

[Heartless]

Working theory

Reviewing the game, I have townreads on: davesaz, CptPicard, Whatisswag, and elleheathen. These are very unlikely to change any time soon.

As I said before, Whatisswag's style makes him inherently difficult to read, but I this it's a lot more likely he's town than not. In the center of all the chaos that is Whatisswag's ISO, there's a distinct absence of an agenda or goal he's working towards. In some of the previous scum games he linked to earlier, you could see the same spam style posting, but it was all tied together in a cohesive way and it usually served to get something he wanted. Indeed, some of the things he posts would be contradictory to a scum agenda in nature, for example Post 50. He states that the masons should try to recruit an active player and then proceeds to be the top poster as scum? I think it's much more likely he's overzealous town who wants to be recruited. I also think Post 226 is much more likely to come from town than scum. It's clear and cogent, and the flow of the writing suggests an underlying confidence that I think it would be hard for scum to counterfeit. I'm kind of wondering how exactly Titus levels the charge of "no content" when that's clearly not the case.

I'm left with:
Grib, MalaKittens, Kaboose, Green Crayons, Lone Ranger, Titus

Malakittens is the key slot here because it dominoes into the other key ones: Green Crayons, Kaboose, and Lone Ranger. Lone Ranger would be close to a town read, but Anti picked up on his entrance being kind of crappy and I felt the same way. If I had to pinpoint it, I would say it has to do with Lone Ranger's relatively weak vote and push on elle.

Green Crayons is a very problematic slot for me because, while individual posts make enough sense, his opinions and votes over the game don't track well. In particular, his read on elle when she was being wagoned always seemed to have some sort of lingering doubt over it though Green Crayons himself never acknowledged this himself and it doesn't look like there's a clear effort to resolve this doubt. I'm also a little lost on the purpose and the direction of the logic thread in GC's ISO because it feels like the reads should be getting more refined as we go along and they seem oddly stagnant and skeletal. Take Day 1, for instance. There's wall upon wall but the best scum reads, and incidentally the ones that got the votes, that came out of it were apparently: ILoveFairies, davesaz, and NJAC. None of those cases were very well supported and I certainly don't see any reason why it took priority over the peaking elle wagon. The vote always ends up in the crevices of the vote counts and that really bothers me.

[Heartless]

If you think Elle is town, then the logical conclusion to draw from the two ending day one wagons is that scum bailed after trying to mislynch Elle to another safe mislynch. Yet, your analysis ignores that completely.

We've already discussed this. There's no reliable way to distinguish between 11th hour town and scum votes because of how much plausible deniability deadline lynches afford. I also would hardly call what happened between the rise of the wagons "jumps." As per Post 426, the elle wagon reached it's peak on January 2nd. It slowly decayed to 2 votes by January 10th and Post 702 and you see the votes are quite spread out. The NJAC wagon arose in the last 36 hours of the day. The overlap between the elle and NJAC wagons falls on the latter votes on the NJAC wagon: Lone Ranger, davesaz, Grib, and Whatisswag.

[Heartless]

Titus: I think your point that elle and NJAC's "joint wagon" has validity, but I think there's an important part of the story left out by just the vote counts.. Green Crayons was scum reading elle as per Post 484, when elle was L-2 at the time, as was Kaboose in Post 339. I consider them "joint wagoners" as much as everyone you're taking issue with.

[Heartless]

Uh, no? That's not what happened?

I was first on Fairies, dave, and Ranger, if memory serves me correctly. If not first, certainly second, but I don't recall anyone else voting for them prior to putting down my votes.

I was third on NJAC, which is fine if you want to call that the "crevice." But it's not some habitual play I've taken up, as your stating.

No, that's

exactly

what happened.

When I say "crevice" I mean small, insignificant places and wagons that never took off. Places that would be hard to find if you're doing what Titus is doing right now. Fairies and dave are low profile votes.

[Heartless]

alright, i think tth is on the right track

VOTE: green crayons

[Heartless]

Mala, I'm leaning town due to circumstances surrounding her,

i am too

since this is tth's trouble spot i took another look at awesomeusername+mala and it wasn't NEARLY as bad as i remember it being.

re: awesome. yeah, true, the dude hedges a lot, but he hedges A LOT. "pros then cons" seems like a motif in his iso. check out the read on green crayons in Post 166. i mean...there's really no reason to be that way as scum on a read like gc. gc wasn't a marginal case. same for dave in Post 410

re: mala. she didn't hedge so much as she didn't really do anything, which is to be expected given v/la

[Heartless]

Yes, I had reservations about the elle suspicions. That's why I talked to her about my suspicions, and ended up deciding against voting her. Your problem with my play is that I didn't say "hey I have some doubts about my suspicions of you, just a head's up as we go into this conversation"?

There's a balance between being open with the town and sabotaging one's suspicions. I choose not to completely undermine my suspicions.

As for "resolv this doubt," it's there if you want to look for it. Post 573 and Post 574 was the tipping point where my elle suspicions started to deflate. I was much more secure in reading elle as town by Post 659 (was phone posting at night so didn't feel like going into a blow by blow), and I made explicit this development in my elle read in Post 880 back when your other half had a hardon for calling elle scum.

well that leaves us w/ a problem. namely that the only thing that coincides w/ your elle read is the rise and fall of the wagon.

[Heartless]

I don't really know how to respond to your "lack of refined" criticism. Mainly because I disagree with it.

My posts explained who I thought was town, and why, and who I thought was scum, and why. I interacted with players who I thought were scum, and my opinions either shifted (Corpses, elle) or they did not (dave, Ranger). I don't know what this something "else" is that you're faulting me for failing to have done. This is just how I play the game.

Also, dave, Fairies, and NJAC votes all occurred after I started to, or had already, smoothed over my suspicions on elle. (There's a Ranger vote that was made in there, too, that you seem to ignore.) That's why they took priority over elle. She wasn't an interesting lynch when I voted elsewhere, because she was looking increasingly more town.

ooooo yeah, make a big deal out of tth missing yet another low-profile, low-impact vote on a wagon that never got past "vanity" status. all the votes d1 are on marginal cases and you never pumped the gas on any of them. and it's not like you don't know how to, you're cranking up the rhetoric for mala right now.

[Heartless]

Big deal? Hardly. But it is worth noting that, in the process of analyzing my D1 votes, TTH ignores my D1 vote with the biggest back and forth attached to it. This is a weird defensive thing for you to jump on.

it's also worth noting that you're using rhetoric like "ignore" and "weirdly defensive" to make this weird omgusy read that's not really based on anything and doesn't really say anything

[Heartless]

You're defending TTH on something that doesn need defending. That's weird.

She ignored a big D1 vote of mine. I noted it in one sentence. You called that making it a big deal. That's weird and defensive.

Sorry bud.

I just failed to put it in the list of votes because I forgot to. But as Anti said, it was a more of typographical mistake on my part than anything. I didn't ignore it, and that has a pretty inflammatory and accusatory meaning attached to it. You fully well know that.

That's

weird.

[Heartless]

If you're going to OMGUS us Green Crayons go ahead and do so. This caginess is "weird".

[Heartless]

Yes, I had reservations about the elle suspicions. That's why I talked to her about my suspicions, and ended up deciding against voting her. Your problem with my play is that I didn't say "hey I have some doubts about my suspicions of you, just a head's up as we go into this conversation"?

There's a balance between being open with the town and sabotaging one's suspicions. I choose not to completely undermine my suspicions.

As for "resolv this doubt," it's there if you want to look for it. Post 573 and Post 574 was the tipping point where my elle suspicions started to deflate. I was much more secure in reading elle as town by Post 659 (was phone posting at night so didn't feel like going into a blow by blow), and I made explicit this development in my elle read in Post 880 back when your other half had a hardon for calling elle scum.

well that leaves us w/ a problem. namely that the only thing that coincides w/ your elle read is the rise and fall of the wagon.

This is a pretty big bullshit line, so I'll let you rethink it.

Well then prove us wrong.

I'm following the links you're providing which show the history of the read, but reviewing elle's activity I can't figure out what she said that influenced the change of heart. There's a few explanations for what happened. The more charitable one is that you simply neglected to give the specifics at the time for whatever reason be it time constraints or what have you. The less charitable one is that you didn't want to get your hands dirty and vote elle. This one is making more sense given our townread on elle and the lack of any evidence to the contrary.

So let's settle it here and now. What is it that you saw in elle's posting that made you back off?

[Heartless]

Also, your claim of "lack of any evidence to the contrary" of elle's play being suspicious is hyperbole and dishonest.

The "lack of any evidence to the contrary" is referring to lack of any evidence that your evolving read is dependent on the rise and fall of the wagon. And an appeal to popular opinion doesn't really do it for me. What's going on in Anti's head isn't the same thing as what's going on in yours, mine, and everyone else's, I guarantee it. I'm not questioning that you

can

have a changing read, I'm questioning why

you, in this specific instance

had this changing read. I also don't get the curtness or why you have a chip on your shoulder. I'm trying to explore theories where you

aren't

scum, so I don't get this stubbornness. There has to be a reason, just cough it up. It's not a trick question.

[Heartless]

You either believe that I had an active, developing read on elle, or you don't. I can give you the reasons, but then if you still don't want to believe me (be it because of confirmation bias, or simple mistrust, or because of your alignment) you can say I am simply retrofitting justifications for my changed stance.

Oh, well then

I don't

. There, how do you like that?

I'm not asking for shits and giggles or to waste your time. I don't know why you're projecting this stubborn, closed-mindedness you seem to have onto me though. It's rich that you're accusing Anti of being "defensive" when you're crawling in your turtle shell when asked the most basic of things such as "why did your elle read change" which should require a few sentences at most.

It's quite irritating and not pro-town at all. What do you want from me? For me to take you at your word? Sorry, but if you're scum you're supposed to be lying to me.

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

You either believe that I had an active, developing read on elle, or you don't. I can give you the reasons, but then if you still don't want to believe me (be it because of confirmation bias, or simple mistrust, or because of your alignment) you can say I am simply retrofitting justifications for my changed stance.

Oh, well then

I don't

. There, how do you like that?

(shrug) Then we skipped to where this was going.

Or, rather, where it already is, and you're seemingly upset that your read of me is what it is, and that it's not going to change just because I tell you some scraps of information. At this point, I'm going to convince you that I'm town by my play and catching scum. And that's about it. That's fine, that's where you and I are at. It doesn't make you stubborn and closeminded. It makes you human who is playing mafia.

We've been interacting for a while now with you getting steadily more suspicious about my play. At this point, continuing a dialog about me is not going to be more productive. I'm not going to pull out a piece of information - truthful, though it will be - that will make you go, "Aha! I see all my suspicions have been assuaged!"

That has never happened to me, on either end of the line of suspicions. Back and forths just go down the rabbit hole if you let the conversation go on for too long. I'm hard pressed to think of a time when that has happened to anyone: just being stopped in the middle of a suspicion-train because just the right piece of thought from the suspectee is divulged to the suspector.

So it's not that I think that you're stubborn or close-minded. I just don't think you're a unique mafia player.

But, hey. Sure. Why not. Maybe this is ~*~ the key ~*~ to seeing that you have been wrong all along. Here you go:

Spoiler: D1 elle read

1.

My first hints of doubt on my elle suspicions actually began before I started questioning her. In Post 491, I noticed that her reads list was quite similar to mine. I put a lot of stock in when other players see the game in the same way I do, so this wasn't a great way to start out into embracing elle suspicions. Regardless, as I noted in that post, elle's read list alone wasn't going to outweigh my suspicions of elle.

2.

My elle suspicions reached their apex in Post 484 and Post 485. There were three suspicions: (1) playing it safe; (2) attempting to manipulate others' reads on her; and (3) defensive interaction with Ranger.

A.

In Post 505 I asked elle to directly respond to my suspicion-observations of her posts. She responded (and then some) in Post 513. My Post 553 reads fairly accurately.

B.

I recall making Post 553 and thinking that my suspicions were still pretty solid, but I wasn't entirely satisfied with my first two suspicions (the top half of Post 553) w/r/t elle playing it safe and attempting to manipulate others' reads on her. I don't know what it was that was making me have some doubts, but looking back on it now I think elle's response is pretty town: It's basically a big (shrug) because what else was she supposed to say? That said, I don't know if that was the actual basis for my semi-doubt, or if I'm projecting onto past-GC.

3.

Simultaneously with the above interaction, based on elle's Post 494, there was an offshoot in Post 507 and Post 514.

A.

This was related to my suspicions relating to elle's interaction with Ranger, and I thought that elle was specifically referring to Ranger being town if elle flipped town. This was weird for me because although I had thought Ranger would be more likely to be scum if elle flipped scum, I would think that elle-town's flip of town would show folks that Ranger's case was bunk - and therefore more likely to come from scum.

B.

This particular line of suspicion got caught in my craw, and I followed up in Post 557 and Post 570. And this is where the cracks really began. elle's Post 571 suggested that I was misunderstanding the things she was conveying, and snarky intro aside in Post 573, I was aping her response to make sure I understood it. And then it clicked two minutes later after rereading her Post 494 a few more times with elle's explanation in mind, with my reluctant eureka moment captured in Post 574.

C.

Post 574 deserves special mention because that is when I decided that my own misunderstanding of the basic communication elle was putting out into the thread was also probably affecting my other problems with elle's play. I wasn't convinced elle was town at this point, but I was convinced that my suspicions were less than adequate. For that reason, I voted for a player I did have suspicions of, and those suspicions had already been addressed but not assuaged: dave, in Post 575.

4.

So Page 26 is when my read really started to turn around.

A.

First there is Post 647, where elle claimed VT. I don't think the VT claim inandof itself says much one way or another, but it was the real sense of resigned frustration that came across. At this point, I was thinking elle could just be good at faking it, but it was a good show.

B.

The clincher for me at that time, however, was Post 656 and Post 658. Those posts come from frustrated town who is tired of being badgered and therefore, while sticking to her suspicions as they develop, thumbs her nose at her suspectors. It's not an angle I would think scum would ever jump to in the circumstances, as it made her look contradictory and preemptively defensive and resigned (as in, "whatever, here, have another reason to lynch me, I don't care").

C.

Post 689 and Post 691 also looked like they came from town, sticking to their-not-actually-good-but-what-do-you-want-its-D1 justification for narrowing a pool of suspects. But this was a minor contribution to the shift in my read.

D.

Post 693, Post 695, and Post 696 - though related to Post 689 and Post 691 in substance - constituted a different reason for me to think elle is town. I'm still unclear what, exactly elle is referring to, and I'm not entirely sure it's something that we can dive into. But the matter-of-factly manner in which the information was conveyed, and how of course that aligned with elle's not great D1 theory, and in any event it's beside the point - all of that just reads town.

And that's the rise and fall of my elle suspicions. Do tell, does this make me town?

Perhaps not immediately, but it's information from the horse's mouth instead of nothing.

[Heartless]

And do you have concerns about the utter lack of info LR is giving ud Heartless?

tth does but i don't really

[Heartless]

I assume it is ok to use posts in MD to our knowledge.

It's legal but it reads desperate as fuck.

desperate for what...?

you seem to want to howl all about content right now, but the amount of sheer non-informative bullshit being trafficked through by gc is just staggering. a few minutes looking at the iso and the whole "red in the inbox" mentality just bleeds through the screen.

hell, you want desperate? look at these gc interactions w/ tth. he's DESPERATELY trying to keep her at arms length by soft OMGUSing while ostensibly giving her a townread b/c she scares the shit out of him. he's perfectly content picking on the half of the hydra he thinks he can get away with but is tiptoeing around the one that can give him a run for his money (see also: the stonewalling on the elle read when there was no reason to then the sarcastic, condescending response that heaps the blame on us if we don't change our read)

[Heartless]

Buzzbuzzbuzzwords.

see this is EXACTLY what i'm talking about

these glib, shitty potshots that don't actually continue a conversation, it's just about shutting the opposition down and keeping the dynamic short and choppy. and it's not just with me. see: gc's analysis of tth's kaboose paragraphs and interactions with swag.

i bet he does it because he thinks it makes him sound authoritative.

it doesn't

it's scummy as fuck

[Heartless]

the ppl on the other side of arguments w/ gc are FAR AND AWAY more town than he is too. there's just a roster of people:

dave
elle
lone ranger
us

he's been pushing bad arguments. all game long.

this.
is.
a.
scum.
agenda.

[Heartless]

Ooooooo, you're a lawyer? Interesting. Good luck with your trial.

[Heartless]

TTH, I know one of your heads really sees GC as scum, but I don't see it. If I can track the train of thought and it doesn't scream fake, I'll hard read the player pretty hard until the end game. That's what I am seeing wiht GC. I don't agree with them a lot (particularly on Kaboose) but we were able to work to see where the difference was. If we can, but just fundamentally disagree, I'm perfectly fine with letting the slot be town since I know my reads are usually pretty controversal. I actually get alarmed if my reads are not.

If you don't see Antihero's points on him, I hope you can at least see that GC is giving both of us the runaround right now: burying Antihero in pointless, condescending hostility and me in tenuous arguments and "maybe I'll suspect you and maybe I won't" posturing.

The davesaz case just isn't there. I've had some experience with dave in previous games (Open 573: C9++ and micro 429: m9++) and I know that his style tends to get scum read for whatever reason. I think it's that he doesn't fully explain himself and he assumes people know what he's talking about more than they really do, but the reason isn't that important. The point is that he tends to catch heat for fairly superficial reasons. In this case it was for asking too many "pointless" questions and denying OMGUS without being accused of it, both of which are circumstantial at best. He actually explained the swag suspicion in Post 259, which Green Crayons acknowledged

and

approved of in Post 267 so I'm not sure why he's suddenly acting like he doesn't understand dave's swag vote

now

. So what's the dave case now? That calling lurkers scum is a "scum cop out"? It only looks bad for dave when removed from the context of town reading most of the key active people.

So is there anything the dave scum read is based on that's not ... air? I don't think there is.

How

about

that Lone Ranger read? I'm looking through his activity right now and it looks like the only thing he's guilty of is scum reading GC. Post 521, Post 522, Post 559, Post 654, and Post 775 are the best summaries there. The best response GC seems to muster is "Slander!" and something about shifting burden of proof. There's a distinct lack of proof of how Ranger is being dishonest and how the argument is bad and everything GC says in response is either a strawman or a short, glib dismissal. A lot like how he's treating Anti, and we already know our alignment. I suspect with similar treatments come similar alignments.

You're asking how Lone Ranger and Green Crayons are different, Titus?

When Lone Ranger tells you to go back and read the thread, there's actually something

there

to read.

Now he's acting like the conversation is over and we should just draw the line in the sand right now and see how it falls out. Oh, good. Let's do that then. I think GC is overconfident in how much he has us baffled with bullshit.

[Heartless]

o.O

Neither.

[Heartless]

I can't tell if you're posting with hubris or if you're just completely convinced everything you say is always right.

lol what?

so is there a purpose for painting tth as a know-it-all or what b/c that's not in there at all

[Heartless]

1. dave's attempt to explain away his "fuck off asshole" swag-vote as not a reactionary vote looks disingenuous (per Grib's 312)

that's a subjective judgment. and i don't know how you go about proving this. the "fuck off asshole" presentation of the vote is indicative of a bad mood and pissyness which is not alignment indicative and he actually coughed up reasons that checked out when asked about it later so i don't know what kind of contradiction/scumminess we're all supposed to be glomming on to here.

this point is speculative at best and can go either way

2. dave's "disarming the opposition" is a great way to explain away dave's sensitivity to how his posts may be received (per Kaboose's 323)

also a subjective judgment and can go either way. no, no one accused him of omgus, but it's such a universal thing around here that saying "no omgus" isn't an unreasonable thing to do especially if frustrated / not expected to get taken seriously like dave is.

3. dave's contribution to this game is low and if you're giving dave a pass for his at-the-beginning-of-D2 lead suspect being that way simply because of lurk, as opposed to any other justification that requires putting your neck out and stating some sort of opinion, then you're lolbad because apparently you're giving people town credit just because I'm suspecting them

/meh
(shrug)
in the grand scheme of things is he really the worst there is? i don't think so. not by a long shot.
i don't really get what you're saying w/ this point. are you saying dave was lurker hunting at the start of day 2? because that's just not true. he said something about lurkers being scum in Post 632, but that was way back on day 1, and that was a few posts before your fairy vote so how is going after lurkers scummy there?

clarification needed on this point

Here, I'll throw another two out there:
4. In Post 844 I gave dave grief for having very minimal suspicions by the end of D1. It only took him 30 minutes to respond with a (paraphrase) "shame on you for not letting me have time to develop reads" because (quote) "I don't pull reads out of my ass and throw them on the table." But in his very next post, Post 879, he does pull a read out of his ass and throws it on the table - he votes elle solely on the basis of elle's early D2 posting interaction with Ranger.

It looks like dave denied that he wasn't failing to provide substantive, useful suspicions, but realized that the criticism was valid, and so hurried up and provided some suspicions that were based on the most recent thing he read that could be construed as scummy. Looks like hurried scum.

a likely story. so, why didn't he hurry up a spit out a full reads list? they're not that hard and it's apparently a crowd-pleaser here.
this point is speculative and constructs a house-of-cards narrative that falls over if you blow on it. it takes a hefty dose of "i already think dave is scum" to really buy into it.

5. dave, although his activity is minimal, is obviously keeping an eye on the thread. He's lurking just enough to catch when his name is mentioned, so he can pipe up an respond. And then he slumps back into obscurity. He's done it at least twice already. Active lurking at its finest.

beatlejuicing as a scumtell is so /meh
(shrug)
it's not reliable because it depends on so many things outside of alignment. mood, how the game's going, which alignment you prefer to play, what other games you're playing that's taking your MS time, how good you are at playing either alignment

[Heartless]

b. What I'm saying is that, upon D2 beginning, I reviewed dave in ISO to see what his play had been up to that point. He had suspicions dotted throughout D1, but most of them dwindled or extinguished by the day's end. All that he was left with at the end of D1 was that "scum is probably lurking." Wow, insightful. That's sarcasm. What it is, is that it is super safe play. So I challenged him on it at the beginning of D2.

safe...? maybe. but he was hardly the only one picking on lurkers, and lurker hunting isn't an absolute scumtell.

his opinion makes sense if you take into account the apparent change of heart about elle and swag in the same post. he'd already townread you so at that point he was town reading the most active players of the game. logically, where do you go from there...?

lurkers.

a. Blow on my house of cards. mmmm, yeah. Sexual innuendo aside, seriously: blow. You haven't made a case as to why my hypothesis behind dave's play isn't correct.

i can't. because you haven't established why this is more likely to come from scum than town. the action could come from scum who's a liar and making up shit and town who really is getting off to a slow start and does suspect elle. there's a voting history there for elle, so i don't know how to rule out the latter so quickly. just because you just present the scum side doesn't mean it's the only one that exists. me criticizing the point would be an exercise in throwing spaghetti against a wall because it's a matter of interpretation.

not a good thing to build a case on.

5. Well TTH has played with dave before, so I'm interested in whether, in her past experiences, dave was town or scum and whether dave was providing the same type of active lurking in those games as he is doing here.

the c9++, we were in heartless so i was there too and yes. i'll let tth say if he was the same way in m9++.

[Heartless]

That said, you do know that simply saying "nuh-unh" to a case doesn't make someone obvtown, right? What are your affirmative reasons for reading dave to be obvtown?

because the given reasons ("i'm pissed off and it's clouding my judgment") actually does go really well with what's went on in the thread and there's not as much bending as you seem to say there is. it's all pretty straightforward and there's a clear paper trail for dave's suspicions and he votes accordingly. the entrance makes sense given the elle read progression and the exit from the elle wagon doesn't make sense if he's scum and elle's town.

there's also the fact that he seems to be catching a lot of heat from some questionable corners. it's alignment indicative because on day 1, it doesn't look like there wasn't anyone to shield him which i would expect if he had 2 people floating around with a vested interest in protecting him. just looking at the general flow the game on the first day, it doesn't look like there's anyone who fits that description.

[Heartless]

drinking at 10:30 in the morning...?

gc... everything going ok?

[Heartless]

TTH, when you say something "hasn't been established" you are wrong and demeaning.

lol that was actually me, titus. and "wrong and demeaning" is my fucking middle name.

am i a rude shithead? yeah, maybe.
that doesn't make me wrong though

my point is that good cases don't START from the premise "X is scum, therefore [this action] is scummy because this is how it would play out if X were scum"

[Heartless]

/sigh
it's like i don't even exist to you titus

you break my heart </3

[Heartless]

Also, Page 55 discussion with Heartless has been the most productive part of our interaction from my standpoint.

So, more of that.

we can move on to the lone ranger case whenever

[Heartless]

He already had the MD post on hand back in D1:

By the way, if you guys are wondering, it was a post dave made 4 months ago.

If that was true, he would have posted it then. Not waited. He stalled and put the best fit which was a theory posy.

so when he went back to md to dig up this bogus post, there JUST HAPPENED TO BE a relevant post made 4 MONTHS AGO by dave?

jee, must've been his lucky day

[Heartless]

Unfortunately, my activity is going to be a little thready here for a while. I'm leaving this is the very capable hands of Antihero for a bit. Sorry.

[Heartless]

Also, I agree that the logical next step is this:

Also, Page 55 discussion with Heartless has been the most productive part of our interaction from my standpoint.

So, more of that.

we can move on to the lone ranger case whenever

[Heartless]

You didn't need to do that elle, but it's really not that big of a deal that you did. I've known Picard was the other mason for a while now I suspect Green Crayons did too. It was a relatively simple exercise of "take the player list and eliminate anyone Cheetory ever scumread or expressed legitimate doubts on." It only left Picard's slot.

[Heartless]

LOL

grib+kaboose+gc

jig's up, ya'll. who wants to go first?

[Heartless]

Wow, I sure wish I had the ability to change my mind in light of new, concrete information.

for the Mason fishing + fakeclaim

HAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHHHHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAA

KEEP DIGGIN', SCUM

[Heartless]

grib if you bus gc, we'll let you go last. you can at least preserve some of your dignity

[Heartless]

The new information being the Mason claims.

I shouldn't have to explain this.

fuck yeah, you got some explaining to do.

I will not lynch
Whatisswag

I don't want to lynch
Green Crayons, Heartless, elleheathen

I wouldn't mind lynching
Malakittens, Titus, davesaz, Kaboose, Lone Ranger

I want to lynch
CptPicard

like how swag SUDDENLY leapfrogs
LITERALLY EVERYONE IN THE FUCKING GAME

that's not from the mason claim. the mason claim doesn't account for it.

[Heartless]

I SHIT IN YOUR WHEATIES

TIME TO PAY THE PIPER, SCUMBAGS

[Heartless]

It's a very ugly line that I'd like disbanded immediately.

ARE YOU CALLING ME UGLY
...actually you have a valid point, i am ugly...
oh well

[Heartless]

@Heartless, Any chance Grib is awkwardly bussing Swag?

not likely

what we're seeing now is desperation. with the lynchbait avenues being cut off, dave, elle, swag, picard, the walls of PoE are closing in on them. they're scrambling.

watch the lone ranger wagon catch a second wind in a sec

[Heartless]

waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait

is this meta from one game?

[Heartless]

/fart

meta's already an unreliable way to read someone. add in an absurdly small sample size and you might as well be juggling five pound bags of shit

[Heartless]

kaboose, grib, gc

[Heartless]

tth doesn't feel as good about ranger and mala as i do, but yes the top 3 scumreads are the same

[Heartless]

if i'm wrong on any of those, put titus in

[Heartless]

PHEWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.....

blehheheheeheheheheheh

tth needs to see that lone ranger case
UNVOTE:

[Heartless]

Lone Ranger Case:

1.

Spoiler: Ranger's entry into the game and in attacking elle looks like scum trying to mimic town-replacement confidence. Scum motivation: look like town-replacement.

a. Okay, so town replacing into a game that has substantial history is probably the easiest way to find scum, because you don't have any history with any of the players and so you're looking at things objectively. This typically results in the town-replacement being pretty confident in the town-replacement's reads.

b. Setting aside Ranger being wrong about elle (because being wrong does not make one scum), I think Ranger's elle-push looks more like scum attempting to convey town-replacement confidence rather than being actual town-replacement confidence. (1) Globally, I think this is supported by the fact that Ranger is abrasive and dismissive towards elle in their back and forth, which is a close substitute for confidence. (2) Specifically, I think this is supported by the fact that Ranger really shifts points of conversation to prolong her elle argument on continually winning bases (Cheetory's observations in Post 392, Post 394, Post 397, Post 401, and Post 420 capture what I'm saying).

2.

Spoiler: Ranger's push on me is bad but, what makes it more scummy, is that it appears calculated to get into a lengthy wall war. Scum motivation: look like TvT if I get lynched.

a. Once again, someone being wrong does not make one scum. And suspecting one's suspectors is a classic town blunder. That said, I'm still allowed to call Ranger out on her bullshit case, as scum do need to actually push shit cases to win, so here we go.

b. Ranger's first lays the foundation for her GC hate in Post 521 and Post 522. Ranger's criticism is part ad hom (GC is usually good, but here he's fucking horrible!) and, to the extent she states criticism that is valid in the abstract (shallow arguments, failing to actually engage) she doesn't connect them to the real world of this game. She repeats her same case in Post 654 after nobody really picks up on her GC-beef. Consequentially, these posts are nothing short of throwing chum into the water. They are designed to make me jump at the bait of defending myself, but there's no way I can actually defend against the criticism. It's shady as fuck. (When I finally take the bait, my response is at the bottom of Post 779. Ranger doesn't respond to it.)

c. Ranger throws in another dig in Post 524. Here she actually gives a concrete example of her problem with my play: that I'm not providing new, unique reactions to the Ranger/elle interaction, and that I'm hesitant and wishy-washy. (1) The criticism about no unique reactions is BS, because it's based on the flawed paradigm that town comes up with something new to say about interactions, rather than what is on their mind. (I have also never checked to see whether my reaction to Ranger/elle was truly duplicative of other players - I don't have the time/energy to do so now, but I assume that Ranger wasn't flubbing the line.) (2) The criticism about me being hesitant and wishy-washy is BS, because Ranger is apparently familiar with my previous play and should know that that's just me (I wouldn't use such pejorative terms, however - I'd say cautious and thoughtful).

d. Ranger attacks Grib for telling her to actually support her GC-is-playing-like-shit case in Post 668. The problem with this is self-evident, but I'll state it anyways: Ranger turns the conversation around so that it's not her fault for making the case, but it's Grib's fault for wanting someone to scum hunt in a particular manner. Moreover, Ranger shifts the point of conversation (just as she did with elle), so that it's not that Ranger is failing to provide in-game examples (Grib's point), but whether Ranger should be talking specifically to GC or to the town at large (Ranger's response).

e. Finally, Ranger finds a reason to votes me based on me suspecting something she did in Post 741. I finally take the bait. My explanation of why her initial post was suspicious, and why her reaction to my suspicions was suspicious, are adequately explained in Post 742 and Post 747. I'll further note that I my Post 754 captures Ranger once again shifting the points in conversation in order to make herself look better (creating this distinction between two types of questions, and then arguing based off of this new point of minutia).

3.

Spoiler: Ranger's "masons should recruit one of us" strategy is classic "scum would never suggest this because it could out scum." Scum motivation: look town by suggesting anti-scum strategy.

a. At the outset, let me say that I never cared who the masons targeted. That was their prerogative, and despite Ranger's baseless digs to the contrary (Post 797), I made that clear from my conversations about what the masons should do (Post 672).

b. I don't think that Ranger's basic suggestion, that the masons should have recruited either Ranger or myself, is in and of itself alignment indicative. It's the fact that she soft-pushes the notion that she isn't scared of being targeted in Post 805, with: "It feels more like you don't want the avenue of discrediting me snatched away from you." That looks like scum wanting to give off the impression that they are perfectly okay with being recruited, without having to to explicitly state that "yo I'm totally not scum please recruit me."

c. Ranger warps my response to her plan. This could come from either alignment (scum or tunneling town), but I'm noting it here to underscore why people shouldn't trust Ranger's bad case on me. Ranger first picks a fight on the basis that I didn't respond to her suggestion (Post 797). I tell her to shove off, and why, and conclude with "Your plan has a lot of holes in it and the masons can do whatever they want." (Post 802). Ranger then twists my response into "pretending that there is a scum benefit and generalizing it as if talking about roles is anti-town (this is not just for you but others)" (Post 804). I never said that there was a scum benefit, and I never said that talking about the roles was anti-town, so Ranger is - once again - shifting the points of conversation to a place where she can win.

d. Ranger goes quiet on D2. I don't know what to make of this. (1) If Ranger is scum, I have hypothesized that it is because she wanted to give off the impression that she was actually recruited without having to say so. Alternatively, she was a major focus of yesterday and didn't know if the masons

did

actually recruit her, and so decided to play it low until if/when the masons made their move, and then just stuck with that level of activity because it hasn't really been hurting her. (2) If Ranger is town, I only see anti-town motivation in suddenly retracting from the game. She has provided absolutely no substantive input for today. She hasn't critically reexamined any of her reads, continues to push her bad case against me based solely on D1 material, and her reaction to D2 game developments is minimal. This presumes that Ranger is purposefully being a bad player, when I think her previous activity shows that she isn't. Between these two scenarios, I think Option 1 is more likely.

^^^^
this
1 in particular. tth said the same things to me re: ranger's elle push

[Heartless]

and.............

so what?

[Heartless]

well.... that's not what elle's doing so..............

no

[Heartless]

anyone have anything else to say tnoight

i've only got about 30 more minutes of sobriety left

[Heartless]

/ughghhghghghghghg

i'm eating these pumpkin cookies they taste like i stuck my finger up a rooster's asshole
BUT I CAN'T STOP EATING THEM

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH ME

[Heartless]

MRMRMRRRRMRRMRPLHPHPHHHPHHHHHPHHHPHHH

my mouth feels like its' full of dirty diapers that got sprayed by 10 skunks

[Heartless]

wante d to at least look at this

but i have to go to bed soon


my cold, lonely bed.

[Heartless]

no

it might be another game where titus is scum though

[Heartless]

Titus is town.

HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAAAHAHAHHAHHAAH

you poor, naive soul

[Heartless]

Make your case or shut up about it. If you are town (still most likely), you are only helping scum set up future mislynches with vague suspicions your other head does not even share.

yeah well tth wasn't there for how do you want to die

[Heartless]

no my case is that, as scum, you make hair-rippingly shitty cases for scummy ppl to be town which is what you're doing w/ kaboose

[Heartless]

actually
VOTE: kaboose

[Heartless]

mason fishing is a shitty case b/c it's incredibly easy to do w/o saying a word and both scum and town should be doing it

[Heartless]

^^^^
this
1 in particular. tth said the same things to me re: ranger's elle push

When you know me, you know me.

My issue with the Kaboose vote is that if Lone Ranger is scum, the chances of Kaboose being scum decreases significantly.

[Heartless]

Aside: Why is everyone calling Lone Ranger "her"? Am I out of the loop on something?

[Heartless]

Funny.

[Heartless]

Also, I will go on record as a wet blanket and say "Fuck the Super Bowl and all the hype associated with it."
That is all.

[Heartless]

Swag and Green, you should put your money and your vote where your mouth is.

[Heartless]

I won't support a Lone Ranger lynch today, but I will support a Kaboose one.

[Heartless]

booooooooooooooooooo

[Heartless]

why the fuck is this kaboose lynch so hard to get?

[Heartless]

So: you're faulting me for not compromising on my least confident scum candidate when my most confident scum candidate is still viable.

we're not compromising on a mala lynch either.

the only reason we're not voting you is b/c tth still has a soft spot for the lone ranger case and thinks that it's likely it came from town

[Heartless]

fuck this
VOTE: green crayons

someone hammer before tth sees this

[Heartless]

VOTE: kaboose

[Heartless]

That's just about the last persons flip I'd want to see right now. Eugh.

WORK WITH US THEN

[Heartless]

Kaboose tends to write walls, but most of the early real estate is taken by pointed swipes at people with no follow up. A good example of what I'm talking about is Post 174. The pointed response to awesomeusername, "What do you want to talk about? Would you like to talk about your slip in this post on GC and how you wanted to toss his name in with town reads mere sentences after a no read?" is especially off since there's no follow up by either party. The points raised on Whatisswag are relatively minor and don't form a core to a well developed read. This type of posting continues with examples such as: Post 194, Post 200, Post 249, Post 323, the list goes on.

The vote itself is very "sticky" and there's not much of an effort to develop the Ethanol read past the vote. There's no direct engagement of Ethanol nor is there any analysis of their posts. There's a forming read on dave in Post 323, but the vote doesn't move nor is there ever a great foundation for the dave scumread in the first place. The next vote on NJAC in Post 585 feels very unnatural and for show because he subverts the point of the vote by stating its purpose. For someone who seems to doubt himself and his own abilities (Post 323: " I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words...", among others) the rebuttals to attacks are quite abrasive. An example of this is the response to awesomeusername I provided earlier, Post 618, and Post 986.

The subsequent interaction with Lone Ranger is Awkward with a capital "A." Post 759 clearly implied either a town or scum read with not much indication that it could go either way. When pressed by Lone Ranger for reasons why it could be scummy, we see an arthritic backpedal with Post 765 and Post 767.

Despite the frequent walls, there's not much of a global outlook on the game and the opinions on slots are limited to only a handful of players. The lethargy in developing reads and pushing wagons stands in contrast to the prickliness that comes out when attacked, which gives a glimpse into the priority system at work: defense and survival. This is much more useful to scum than town.

I think Kaboose is scum.

posting this again because it's good

[Heartless]

BY THE WAY kaboose has been sitting on a failed wagon and active lurking it out with a loser vote on swag

THIS
IS
SCUM
LYNCH
THIS

[Heartless]

SWAG, ELLE, TITUS, GC, LONE RANGER

THIS IS A CALL TO ARMS

[Heartless]

3 more to scum flip

come on people

[Heartless]

SOMEONE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL FUCKS HAMMER

Mod edit: Warning given (For this and previous post), refer to rule 14 (under player activity). Continue to post in constant caps and you may be forcibly replaced.

[Heartless]

Mod edit: Warning given (For this and previous post), refer to rule 14 (under player activity). Continue to post in constant caps and you may be forcibly replaced.

got it, i'll tone it down and not capslock

[Heartless]

it's armageddon's game, his rules

i'm someone who abuses his capslock button b/c this is the only medium i can get away w/ it (i'm an academic by day...believe it or not). now that i know it might get us thrown out i might have tth do the posting. XD

[Heartless]

if kaboose doesn't flip scum, i'm going to rip out my own spleen and make it into a decorative lamp

[Heartless]

what's the purpose of the universe?

[Heartless]

why
do
i feel
so
e m p t y
then?

[Heartless]

please give your opinion on this picture of an orange cat i drew:

Spoiler:

[Heartless]

VOTE: Titus

You're being silly, Jingle.

[Heartless]

Why yes it is!

Hello. ^_^/~

[Heartless]

Jingle, what did elle have to say in the PT last night?

[Heartless]

The Kaboose paper trail goes right back to Titus; the associative tells are emanations of events occurring from the fallout of Post 996 and Post 1073.

The reads evolution on Kaboose throughout the game makes less sense as a natural progression and more sense as putting up the Phalanx once the serious attacks loomed. The first thing Titus posts about Kaboose is found in Post 1002 when she notes how Kaboose wasn't voting even though he was scum reading elle. From then on, though, she grabbed onto Post 1051 and never let go even though the reaction wasn't particularly town. For funsies, we even get a little revisionist history in Post 1074 when we hear Kaboose's ISO is "dripping with town motivation to crack the game," doubling down on a read that had evidence of showing cracks in the foundation.

She then has the incredibly strained angle in Post 1104 in the wake of Swag's obviously fake claim. Even if you

didn't

think the claim was obviously fake, the argument about how the mason claim should be lynched before the claimed guilty is terrible and doesn't hold up to even the mildest application of logic. We've been getting pushback from Titus every step of the way on the Kaboose read. I can just rattle off posts: Post 1053, Post 1074, Post 1180, Post 1521, Post 1603, and Post 1612. There's also the last moment move to try to get us to rejoin the Green Crayons wagon in Post 1689 by taking this strained "GC is scum if Kaboose is scum... or not" angle.

It's also apparent from how she talks about Anti that she's playing to his apparent meta experience with her. Anti will listen to me, though, so she's out of luck there.

[Heartless]

The only thing that pauses me on Titus-town atm is GC v Titus because I know Titus-scum and played with her a few games to know that she's a mastermind diabolica scum and this whole dance reminds me of a recent off-site game. So I wouldn't put it past titus to go after her partner in order to win off of a type of bus like this.~

There's no evidence to suggest Titus wasn't bussing. Titus only voted after elle and Grib switched. With Antihero in full strong arm mode at that point, Kaboose's grave was just waiting to be filled.

[Heartless]

Usually, schmusually.

Unless the player has

that

rigid of a play I don't put much stock into those kinds of arguments.

[Heartless]

When I ask Antihero to back up this meta, will he?

[Heartless]

Mala's pride in defending Titus makes me think Mala is town if Titus is scum. I agree that Titus did go to extraordinary lengths to protect Kaboose.

The fact Kaboose had such a strong negative reaction to you calling Mala town makes me think Mala is in fact town, though I don't know how valid that logic is.

[Heartless]

And someone whisper sweet nothings into my ear about Grib.

The interactions between Kaboose and Grib are quite extensive for them to be scum together. Kaboose is pretty conciliatory in his dealings with Grib. That, coupled with Grib's key vote in securing the Kaboose lynch, leads me to the conclusion that he's town.

Now I'd like to hear some whispers from you. ^_^

Just in general, how good of a scum player would you say Malakittens is, Jingle?

[Heartless]

You're bad at this whole "whisper sweet nothings" thing Jingle.
Such a turn off. V_V

[Heartless]

Depends on which games he's gonna meta. Her meta has changed recently. When you play scum with her and you watch how she evolved that game there's things that she does, but yes she'll bus early if she knows her partner is in trouble or sometimes she'll try and lynch someone who isn't a scum partner. It depends on the size of the team and how many are alive. It's about the cred, all about the cred~

i agree w/ this

i also don't understand mala's argument or her titus read. mala, could you flesh it out a bit more w/r/t what's going on in this game w/ titus and kaboose?

[Heartless]

So I repeat the same manuever...hoping for a different result?

yeah...

i mean.... scum protect their scumbuddies and lynch town. that's what they're supposed to do. just b/c it went badly that time in the execution doesn't mean that's not what scum should do.

also, the game is about 9 months old so...meh. past the expiration date of meta invoking.

[Heartless]

no my case is that, as scum, you make hair-rippingly shitty cases for scummy ppl to be town which is what you're doing w/ kaboose

How am I scummy?

I don't see why Kaboose is scum?

I had Swag who is obvious scum to me...and he fakeclaims a guilty on his buddy...that is Titus level scumfuckery. Most do not do that.

Wait you don't see how I'm scum, but Swag is scum and he fakeclaimed a guilty on his buddy, and in that case that buddy was me... So you do think I'm scum? or you don't? Because your 1603 is confusing.

i don't know tth, this doesn't look like a scum-scum-scum series of posts...

[Heartless]

Just mislynch me now then.

Seriously if you are so dense to consider me that stupid as scum, nothing I say will convince you when it's 2 v 1. Three if you include the dumb townie that inevitably pushes.

/shrug

it wouldn't have been a bad move as scum. you would've just gotten unlucky that the flashwagon on kaboose actually went through. there really wasn't an indication that it was going to.

this is hard.... gc's pointedness doesn't really feel townish to me

[Heartless]

Just mislynch me now then.

Seriously if you are so dense to consider me that stupid as scum, nothing I say will convince you when it's 2 v 1. Three if you include the dumb townie that inevitably pushes.

Heh. Didn't waste any time going straight for Anti's soft spot did you?

Nice try, but I'm working on getting him inoculated to bullshit like this.

[Heartless]

Jingle, if you let Titus' AtE get to you I'm going to lose all respect for you and kick you in the nuts.

[Heartless]

Same for Anti.

[Heartless]

Oh you fucking try me, cute boy.

Titus is preying on your insecurity. She's doing it so that you won't lynch her. But she's scum.

[Heartless]

Also, I'm really not gonna let Titus's 'ATE get to me'.

That implies I was scumreading her in the first place for her to manipulate me with ATE.

I genuinely think at the moment that this is towntitus. I'm not nearly read up enough to say I'm not wrong, but she's not pinging my scumdar. The only towntitus tell I haven't seen is a strangely compelling case on someone that makes absolutely 0 sense to me but still makes me want to lynch them.

Mrph...

Well I don't know what's going on in that pretty head of yours, Mister. But I know how Anti's reacting right now and how it's the same as how he always acts. Anyone drops a little bit of AtE and he stops in his tracks (especially if that person has two X chromosomes ).

[Heartless]

What's the urgency coming from, T? I like to take things slow sometimes.

*sigh*

JINGLEY, I'm trying to be annoyed with you, but you're making it

very

difficult for me.

[Heartless]

Jingle, if you let Titus' AtE get to you I'm going to lose all respect for you and kick you in the nuts.

No you won't.

Oh you fucking try me, cute boy.

What's the urgency coming from, T? I like to take things slow sometimes.

*sigh*

JINGLEY, I'm trying to be annoyed with you, but you're making it

very

difficult for me.

If it helps I can sing some really dirty songs loudly and off key.

(And I told you you weren't gonna kick me in the balls. )

oh for fucks sake get a room

SOMEONE
COME RESCUE ME FROM WHATEVER..... THIS IS.

[Heartless]

And Anti, we've been meaning to have a conversation with you for a while...

hold on let me see if i can find an appropriate image for this

[Heartless]

[Heartless]

oh for fucks sake get a room

*ahem*

Excuse me, Mister Antihero. But I've sat through enough verbal dry humpings between you and ETL to where I think I deserve a

little

bit of latitude from you, bro.