Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[copper223]

There are 10 of us alive, unless I see a vig claim after this post I will assume 6 are town, 3 are scum and 1 is an SK.

If we mislynch, tomorrow as a worst case we have a Lylo with 3 townies where the decider is the SK vote, this scenario is basically unwinnable for town, so I think we should massclaim today.

[copper223]

No that's a mistake, 2 scum and 1 SK, I still think we should consider mass claiming.

[copper223]

I also think the Dodgy kill may be related to the scum bus driver.

[copper223]

Because it's by far the most likely scenario given the claims and the kills.

[copper223]

I don't think a unified faction kills both eyestott and dodgy, and if were in a PR rich environment it's more likely a vigilante would have claimed by now.

[copper223]

I also have an idea about how many missing PR's there may be based on how the players are acting and the number of missing PR's needed to enter a 3 scum game is not supported.

[copper223]

My best guess at the moment is Mastin2/Tean/Beast and Heartless.

[copper223]

@Vettrock

In order for there to be two scum and one SK, there would have to be TTTTT. Given that we know that we have at least one I, and one P, that leaves no other power roles. Since copper is claiming vengeful, I'm not sure how he can come to this conclusion unless his claim is fake. Assuming his claim is valid, there has to be three scum and a serial killer: TTT. If there was a vig, that would mean for his claim to be true, it would have to be IPKK?TT. I think the TTT is more likely, so I don't think there is a vig.

TTTTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Serial Killer

TTTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, (Serial Killer*)

TTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Serial Killer

This is the setup on the wiki, I believe with 6T's the serial killer is missing see (*) because it would make little sense otherwise, at the moment it's very likely it's either 7, 6 or 5.

If there are 5T's, then 2 Pr's were killed =7, 3 are scum or SK = 10, there are 3 PR's missing (=13), one of which is me, what are you talking about?

@Mastin
I don't like your wagon, I'll check Tean again when I have time.

@TTH
Tell us when you need to start to physically threatening your partner, you tell me you are not scum because you are both still posting and proceed to conform to your scum meta.

[copper223]

@Vettrock
I did not read the part about how the mod

rolls only 7

letters and fills out the rest, if you look at my post you can see what I'm doing by adding the PR's.

This helps a lot in narrowing it down thought, my guess is we are either:

- TTTTIPK which means 3 scum and no SK

or

- TTTIIPK which means 3 scum and an SK, so if we don't lynch correctly this game is over. I think this is where we are at.

So basically most of you are scum is what this says... no wonder this game doesn't make any sense.

[copper223]

@Vettrock
You are right, I had just figured out how to examine the setup based on what you said about the 7 rolls and did not think about what the double nk meant as far as narrowing it down means, I also already thought we were in the PKIITTT case and added the other one for the rest of you.

@All
I think mass claiming is vital.

[copper223]

Vengeful doesn't seem a great fake-claim for scum to make.

Hmm so you are likely scum too, this makes me happy, BBT/Tean/Mastin and Beast?

Mastin, if you are town examine the game again because you are completely off from where I am standing.

[copper223]

You know I am not fake claiming, that's why you came out with that ridiculous statement about me being unlikely scum because scum would be OP if I could shoot soneone when I die.

[copper223]

In fact:

VOTE: BBT

I see some remote cases where Mastin is not scum, I see very very few where Tean isn't and you have a decent association with both, that slip, when you wanted to lynch me so bad yesterday is pretty decisive.

If you are scum sorry for the abuse, al's fair in that case.

[copper223]

Fuck it, I think it's pretty clear Vettrock is hinting at being 1-shot tracker and that's why he was sure of Eyestott yesterday. That is why I think we are in the PKIITTT setup.

My lack of knowledge is neither scum nor town indicative, it shows I did not put the proper time to evaluate this game, if you know me this should tell you what that likely means for my alignment, but that's speculation, BBT's phrasing is indicative of someone that knows I can only be vengeful and that is why it likely is a slip.

[copper223]

I already told you town should mass claim because it's most likely 6-4, if you or Mastin are town it's more your own fault for scumhunting the likely last PR at mylo otherwise I would not have said anything.

Yes that is the quote, scum Copper is not shooting anyone once you lynch him, because scum Copper would not be vengeful, scum Copper also doesn't exist, the only players I can see writing such an awkward sentence are those that already know in the back of their mind that I am vengeful and are making up the rest of the post without realizing the contradiction

[copper223]

It's likely not a question of vogue, it's about who I would shoot if I get lynched.

[copper223]

@Aneninen.

- I disagree that massclaiming is antitown, the situation is we are about to lose, I don't believe we can come back from a 3-3-1 so I value a confirmed, especially if said confirmed is in the lynch pool, over some ability that may not even come into play before we are done here. I was also trying to use my knowledge of Vettrock being 1-shot tracker in case someone claimed that so we could at least confirm 1 mafia. You keep on saying it's anti town, you never explain why, please do tell.

- That is a misrep worthy of a lynch, I said I missed part of the setup where it says only 7 roles are determined and the rest is filled in, I never said I did not read it, I also gave plenty of information about it this game so there is no reason to think I did not.

- I already told you what happened there, I just saw Vettrock's post, wondered what he was going on about and after I noticed the 7 rolls I jumped to the setup page to see if he was saying the truth and I posted my initial thoughts on the setup alone, I did not factor in the night kill and I did not want to give only the setup I believe we were in to cover my assumption of Vettrock being tracker, which you aptly tried to rolefish to death and then tried to picture me scummy for telling you why you should not be scumreading Vettrock. I think a lot of the scumplayers were on Vettrock and they are desperate now, this may be why Aneninen is reacting like this.

- A PR rich environment compared to the 4 I already knew likely existed, even in this case I'd rather have the roles out today and try to get it right, it also would probably lead to scum having to claim which narrows it down to a 50/50.

[copper223]

I've re-read the thread under the assumption that there is no bussing and BBT/Beast/Mastin is the most likely trio.

[copper223]

I'm going to add this in; I have no fucking idea who scum is. I haven't kept up with this game anywhere near as much as I would have liked so I have to apologize for that.

So you randomly vote a PR claim, lynch immediately.

[copper223]

you are dead either way.

[copper223]

100%, if you end up being town you also will get a ban request from me.

[copper223]

For the rest of town, I think you should absolutely lynch Mastin tomorrow.

[copper223]

I am.

[copper223]

If you are town you are explictily playing against your win condition by lynching a vengeful claim at mylo after stating you did not take the time to read this game, that is grounds for a ban according to the rules, you should not be allowed to ruin other people's games. In this case I have to assume you are scum for doing this, if I shoot you and you are town the game is lost for town.

[copper223]

Lol please

[copper223]

If I were just whining and my argument had no merit you would not have switched vote so quickly.

VOTE: Mastin

[copper223]

Back.

I'm responding to Copper now.

First of all, don't take it as a personal offence, but I simply don't believe you. I think your claim is fake, therefore you're scum.
– Massclaiming would help the scums more than the town. The scums would know all the PRs and they could choose the most dangerous PR to Nightkill, turn by turn. This would be especially bad in this particular game because (1) most probably there's an SK and (2) two PRs are already dead. The only advantage for the town would be that we'd be able to confirm some players. (However, see something else about this topic below!) BUT, this would come with two serious disadvantages: (1) some scums could perform a safe-looking fake-claim (and it would be hard to decide which claims are real and which are fake) and (2) if the scums are charismatic enough, they would be able to convince the town to lynch the

real

PR.

I don't take it personally if you are scum or if you are town and did your research (incorrectly), that comment to BBT was just because he openly stated he was basically randomly voting. I am telling you all that doesn't matter if we lynch incorrectly, the most dangerous PR in this setup is a tracker and we are still screwed if he comes out tomorrow with a check because there are an equal number of informed scum that can destroy most claims while the townies look skeptically on. Yes exactly, knowing my role and most likely Vettrock's,

any

other claim is likely fake, so there are no safe fakeclaims, anyone that claimed anything else other than VT I would have lynched. You make the point yourself but ignore it here.

– I'm not misrepresenting you at all. It's possible that I'm misinterpreting you and my scumread on you is wrong. So, instead of voting for you I asked everyone to discuss my reads. I've already expained: if your claim is real and I'm wrong, lynching you can be equal with performing

two

mislynchs.

That is not presenting a case, that is twisting what was said to make it look scummy, I don't like it, I don't understand what you are doing because I have you as more likely town than not but this doesn't align at all.

– You wrote that I had been responsible for outing Vettrock. Isn't that a misrepresenting from you? It's pretty obvious that I hadn't noticed Vettrock's hints before he claimed. You could have posted something like "I think I saw a PR-hint from someone" instead of outing Vettrock.
(As for Vettrock, I still need to examine whether his claim is real or not. My intuition says it

is

, but I want to be surer.)

I am not pushing a lynch on you, so if that is misrepping it's vastly less important, I think it's questionable but whatever, to me it was worth outing him so I did, I had no reason to do so as scum unless we are buddies.

– Also, there's something else. If your claim is real and you assume that the setup contains 4 PRs (it's five times more probable than the 6PRs version and because having an SK in the setup is very likely), your gameplay as a townie is very bad. Let me explain: if you're really a Vengeful and if you've spotted Vettrock's hints (and if his claim is real too), it's 80% that there are NO other PRs at all. What does that mean? Most probably NO townie would claim anything. (About all these claims I'll write something else in my next post, because there's something else that suggests me that Copper is faking.)

Clap clap, so lynch the first guy that claims a PR is the strategy, if nobody claims we have 2 confirmed PR's, if somebody claims another role I will try to lynch them, if someone cc's me I will also try to lynch them and if I lose I will shoot them when I die, that is far better than your strategy of lynching the vengeful.

[copper223]

Once again, I want a massclaim.

[copper223]

Popcorn style I propose Mastin as the first.

[copper223]

Massclaim first, discuss the setup later.

[copper223]

@Beast
You are scummy enough I am fine with you claiming second/third, I like Wicked's suggestion to reaction test the replacement and have him claim first.

@Killa
What is the purpose of that question, you don't believe he is 1-shot?

@Mastin
you are so scummy I don't even know, no way that you get to claim later on, it's either straight away or lynch as far as I am concerned.

[copper223]

@Killa
That was the answer I was expexcting, so why did you want to know?

[copper223]

@BBT
Who do you claim to have hidden behind yesterday?

@All
Currently one of the claims is 100% a lie, because we would not be in an SK setup.

[copper223]

Why did you choose Killa?

[copper223]

@BBT
Are you sure you are back in this game?

If both Vettrock, who is obv. town and 1-shot tracker by the way, and I are scum, we would currently be in another setup without the SK.

[copper223]

22.6%

[copper223]

But most of it is in the T=2, T =1 or 0 is only 6.25% and the setup doesn't support T=2.

[copper223]

VOTE: BBT

[copper223]

If Vettrock fake claimed good on him, he had it setup the moment Eyestott claimed, all his reads make sense based on someone that knows Eyestott is town and a tracker, for instance his scumread of me makes perfect sense.

BBT said he was going to go back into hiding after whining about nobody wanting to help him kill Aneninen, but other than that I don't see as much and he fucked up enough in the latter part of today that a 1 for 1 sack if he is lucky may be the best strategy available for him.

If someone else claims I'll think about it, otherwise either lynch me or lynch BBT.

[copper223]

It is true however that % marginally supports BBT over Vettrock, there's a 37% of a hider being part of the game and only a 21% chance of there being a second tracker.

[copper223]

If that's the case, pot meet kettle, mr I am not willing to consider the setup and will just scumread "both" the other PR's.

[copper223]

Again pot meet kettle, if you are town you fucked up today and your claim now is shit because of it, you can't even read your PM properly if that's the case.

[copper223]

I'm tempted to just go off of % since this game my reads mean nothing, I will re-read both ISO before tomorrow, I want to her what Killapen wanted to say about Vettrock, it looked like he was also softing something.

UNVOTE:

[copper223]

is it 5.47%?

Correct.

[copper223]

I would be fine with it if I knew 100% that it is not you.

[copper223]

Sure, just gambling my life as scum on the chance that there is no vig. with 2 or 3 votes on me D1 and while reassessing Dave the main wagon of the day and 1 of those votes was such good scumplay.

[copper223]

Anen, I like your post w.r.t. copper.

That is a misrep worthy of a lynch, I said I missed part of the setup where it says only 7 roles are determined and the rest is filled in, I never said I did not read it,

Really? You seemed to be doing the math correctly on day 1...

I did not connect the dots when thinking of the whole setup and I forgot about it, there is no reason for me to write that post about the T's and how there where 13 players so we could be at 5,6 or 7 like I did if it was not an honest mistake, regardless of my alignment, in fact I'm far more likely to go back and check as scum but that's unprovable.

[copper223]

Nope Mastin first.

[copper223]

If you don't want to say anything don't, these kind of innuendos just look scummy. I'd like to no nominate the replacement next.

[copper223]

@copper it seems pretty logical to ask the tracker if he tracked anyone especially as we know at least 2 people performed a kill last night. With all these PR claims it seems a shame someone outted him before he was able to use his track.

It was pretty obvious to me that since he did not tell he did not have something meaningful to report (assuming he could report something).

[copper223]

@Vettrock
That's very disingenuous as you being alive if we both flip town means the game is over, I'm thinking of going on you.

@Beast
Your reads don't make sense, I want you lynched.

@Mastin
Also needs to be lynched, if you are town and Vettrock is a PR you should be embarassed, you would have managed to be the most mafia sided player this game, but it's a pretty sure thing to me you are scum.

If I can't make up my mind I might shoot 1 of these two.

[copper223]

Nope, this and the other point you brought up previously about missing the setup don't make sense because they are not alignment indivative or hint at me being town, you are definitely the same alignment as Vettrock so this makes me want to shoot him more.

I want a poll from each of you about who I should shoot, between the PR's and someone else if you think it would be better (if so add why).

[copper223]

He said he did not use his shot.

[copper223]

Best guess is Beast/BBT/Mastin and Tean as the SK. If I'm wrong on BBT, first of all wtf, you can lynch Vettrock tomorrow and Wicked the day after, the last one is probably Heartless, SK is once again likely to be Tean.

@BBT
Thanks for jumping on that, I was baiting it really hard saying I would shoot Vettrock.

@Heartless
Vote me pls.

[copper223]

[copper223]

you're dead.

[copper223]

Nope, waste of time.

[copper223]

Lol you can join me immediately.

[copper223]

Nope, if you assume I am scum with Tean, then Vettrock is confirmed town.

[copper223]

davesaz (7)

-

Tean Samargo

,

Mastin2

, Heartless,

beastcharizard

, Wickedestjr,

vettrock

,

copper223

copper223 (3)

-

BlueBloodedToffee

,

eyestott

beastcharizard (1)

- killapenwin

Tean Samargo (2)

- Aneninen,

dodgy56

mastin2 (1)

-

davesaz

This makes much more sense both statistically and from how scum usually play games. Remember this if BBT flips as expected and after you lynch Mastin tomorrow.

[copper223]

@Killa
No, lynching in the PR pool unless someone else claims is by far the best move.

@BBT
Read again, I said if you flip as exepected (meaning scum), that means from my pov that Vettrock is confirmed, becauase of the number of PR's needed to be in the setup we are in. What is weak as fuck is your attempt to appear to be back in the game after screwing around and trying to coast before, combined with you telling the rest of the scumteam (Mastin & co) you are sorry for derping.

[copper223]

Should I end the day?

[copper223]

Haha, you know I got this Copper.

You might as well self-vote and get it over with.

I'm also not getting lynched toDay. That's clear as fuck.

Lol this says it all, if I wanted to hardcore 1v1 to say alive I would have done so, but my flip is fine if we get you as well, your alliances are pretty well defined.

[copper223]

Not talking to scum ofc.

[copper223]

@Aneninen

So, Beast, are you MonkeyMan?!!? If so, I'll need to think about this information.

Wicked, your 1414 (about "BBT's ruining the game for town" and things like that) makes sense, I think.

BBT, 1424 – "Copper, in 1189 you were scum-reading Heartless. Here, they are no longer in your scum-reads. How did that happen?" – indeed, thanks for pointing it out! Also, as I said before, his vote for you was weird. If Copper flips scum (and I think he is), Heartless must be scum as well. I also liked your 1435 too.

Penguin, 1441 – you might be right about Beast. He indeed looks scummy but if he's MonkeyMan, I'll need to re-ISO him. I've met MonkeyMan a couple of times, I'm not allowed to talk about most of these games (because they're still on), but I think I have quite a useful amount of MonkeyMan meta...

________

Since the empty Tean-slot is the only one which hasn't claimed yet, and because noone considers it too likely that he might claim a PR later, the best lynch seems to be Copper. I don't think Vettrock is scum, BBT's latest posts might have come from a town-mindset. If Copper's a Vengeful (though I doubt it), he can shoot BBT. (I think eg. Vettrock said the same as the safest tactic in 1402.)

VOTE: Copper

This post is retarded if you are town btw, why end the day early instead of waiting for the Tean subsitute to claim by putting me at L-1?

Maybe Aneninen is SK.

[copper223]

I've been re-reading and I don't see Vettrock fakeclaiming like that, he was the only one besides me who mentioned full trackers in his post and who considered a 3rd tracker outing, if it's a setup he earned the win 100 times more than BBT.

Most likely Vettrock dies tonight.

I think the SK should kill Mastin for me, you want to lynch scum buddy if you're trying to win and she is scum.

This leaves {Aneninen, Beast, Heartless, Killapenwen, Tean, Wickedjstr}

My best guess is Beast is the remaining scum there and Tean is the SK.

If these reads are accurate, good luck to scum and the SK, I totally did not enjoy being part of this town.

[copper223]

Am I a retard? Let's see.

@Killa
No, lynching in the PR pool unless someone else claims is by far the best move.

Should I end the day?

Maybe Aneninen is SK.

Oh, really?

According to the first quote my vote is logical. (By the way, if you were town, you wouldn't worry about my vote – accoding to your interaction you'd take BBT with you, since one of you two must be scum.) Also, my vote was not a hammer, I didn't end the Day.
The second quote is very scummy, especially since you wrote this in 1425:

"@Heartless Vote me pls."

(Yet another thing which points towards a Copper/Heartless scumteam. The third one has to be the Tean-slot and I have a damn good reason for thinking so.)
But, the third one, I think that one was a slip. Maybe I'm SK?!!

SK?????

Soooooo, it seems that you

KNOW

that I'm not a Mafia becuase

you know who your partners are!!!

COPPER IS SCUM.

(And for your information: I'm not the SK.)

Yes dumbass, but after getting the massclaim we wanted (which I prompted and which is going to earn you 1 scum you ungraitful piece of shit, assuming you are town).

I asked Heartless to vote becuase he was the most recent non voter online, after BBT's taunting and your derp vote I went back and tried to figure out why scum BBT would be happy with the trade he knows is coming, but I think he is just relieved he didn't get immediately lynched as he should have for that vengeful + scum comment.

I think you could be SK because the scumteam is BBT centric and you don't make sense as a BBT partner, not because I know.

[copper223]

The alternative is your are shit, so I'm paying you a compliment here.

[copper223]

lol the sad thing is this mofa is going to lose it at lylo no matter what.

[copper223]

Above 80%

[copper223]

@Aneninen
Have fun reading that after I flip. At least it means you are likely town, not that that helps much, I will scumread you on purpose from now on. If my teammate the Tean slot fake claims, lynch him tomorrow.

@Killa
I already claimed, Vettrock already softed (at least 3 players saw it) so if he is real he was already dead, you fishing for his role together with genius Aneninen ensured his death if anything, BBT is fake claiming.

So I just gave you 1 scumplayer, now town has to decide who to lynch, if you lynch me because apparently it's the safe play the only ones derping are the town voting here, but it's still ok, I can still give you 1 scum for it.

Your let's lynch Beast play does not guarentee anything of the sort and tonight Vettrock still dies and the SK has a strong incentive to kill me as well, so if we are both wrong about Beast we can pack up here.

[copper223]

I don't disagree, they literally don't make sense because the support does not allow for them, otherwise an SK would not be in the game.

I will give you the benefit of being able to realize those reads are impossible if you genuinenly thought about it as town, hence you presenting that crap makes you likely scum just pulling out some convenient scumreads.

[copper223]

BBT is trying so hard to get me to hammer so you don't change your mind and see how scummy he is it's not even funny.

[copper223]

There isn't much of a difference as far as I can tell but the fact you want it so badly means I probably don't want to help you along.

[copper223]

Nope, I really am vengeful.

[copper223]

Lol cause you suck bro.

[copper223]

I want a poll from each of you about who I should shoot, between the PR's and someone else if you think it would be better (if so add why).

Please do this by the way.

[copper223]

@Heartless
Thanks for the defense TTH and I agree on Beast though he is a hard read because he seems always scummy to me from looking at his games, so I'd prefer for town not to lynch him first tomorrow, but the only thing I want to know is how sure you are Vettrock is not scum.

[copper223]

Fine I trust you guys on this one, it's a bit scary that nobody is pushing on Vettrock now but you are right that Mastin has been shady as fuck this whole game minus the very early RVS where justification for pushes were not needed and I really don't see her scum with Vettrock.

I also fail to understand the scum fakeclaim from BBT because getting a trade with me if his teammates are along the lines of Mastin, Beast and Tean, is actually pretty bad for scum, meh.

[copper223]

@Aneninen
Because if you are town, a read I gave mid day 1, you are so mafia sided here I want you policy lynched so I will just D1 lynch you out of my games, at least that is what I was saying there, which I admit is pretty harsh but the ideas you are coming up with, while they make some sense as a paranoid townie, are pretty crazy if you actually are town. The highlighted means scum would have NK'd him tonight anyway if he actually is 1-shot so what we got from the mass claim is 1 almost sure fake claim and a decent shot at lynching scum today, which (Killa) is absolutely vital if town wants to have a chance.

I never said I was going to follow your suggestions reagarding the poll, that was a probe to find out if someone is still pushing on Vettrock, because other than Mastin and partly you everyone else seems happy to scumread BBT but is finding some reason to vote for me instead, I really dislike Wicked's push for instance, and there is a world where Heartless is just pocketing me so I go ahead and shoot the wrong guy, it's scary to think that if Vettrock is scum we just lose with my shot and his soft is not impossible to do as scum, I would think about it for instance.

It doesn't really matter anymore because the posturing BBT has been doing in this last few pages, especially that comment about him not being the lynch for today so I should self hammer, the gloating about getting me lynched and that massive slip about the vengeful plus the association with Mastin who has been a giant lurksack today other than to quickly jump on me after your "case" means I am likely not changing my mind on him.

[copper223]

Sure

[copper223]

Lol, guilty trip your own self, if I have to shoot you and you are town you earned it 100 times by the way you played and you lost the game before me by giving Vettrock such an easy way to win.

[copper223]

@Aneninen
You are out of your mind if you think I would fakeclaim vengeful as vigilante, maybe even shoot yesterday(????) and not tell you, it is extremely rare for me to fakeclaim as town, I might have done so at lylo in this game but that's about it.

I also hope there isn't a townie hiding behind a VT claim because if they are they really missplayed it, if someone tries to tell you they did this in the future you should lynch them ASAP.

[copper223]

Are you kidding me BBT? If you really are town you think this is the best defence I could give as scum? Aneninen you read my 20+ pages of battle with Acryon in our other game where I got every single townie to lynch him while my partners were afk and bussing, you really think I couldn't do better than this here? The fact I'm not even trying should tell you what my alignment is in a blink.

[copper223]

I know nothing of the sort, I simply am not as retarded as you so I consider the cases where I might be wrong because the other guy is a fucking moron but not scum.

[copper223]

You tempt me, I would happily self hammer just to fuck you in the ass, but I don't want to be selfish.

[copper223]

Lol you are the idiot motherfucker, once again if you are town you should be banned for this so I am happily assuming scum.

[copper223]

w/e if the cunt here is actually town then the scumteam is something like Heartless Vettrock Wicked and you will lose anyway.

[copper223]

I was not the main one who messed up badly in this farce of a game, I already accepted my dues with both the mod and the listmod when I tried to appeal, the insults were over the top and deserving of a warning in my opinion, the mod decided for a ban, he had the authority to do so and it was Jackal's game to run. I'll say I've read far worse and received far worse in other games without the mod even taking notice nor have I ever received a warning let alone a replacement in any other game I played; beyond that the screw up was all his and the game should have been canned once he confirmed my slot, heartless basically claimed scum the post after as well.

It's a shame because scum fully deserve the credit for the win, you could have easily won althogether without a tie in my opinion.

No hard feelings Aneninen, you were scum and played it well, I think you improved a lot from your last scum game.

Teapot, if you are Mollie that post makes me sad.

[copper223]

ok, I have a few names in mind but I won't play the guessing game.

I understand your frustration and am sorry you took the time to try and help and couldn't, as others have already said, thank you for subbing in.