Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[davesaz]

I see we're beyond RVS already, which is fine I guess. We have a Christmas dinner for 18 going tomorrow afternoon, so it may be 24 hours before I can really get going on this game. If I get enough time between gifts and the beginning of dinner prep I'll try to get on, but no promises.

Hannibal, did/do you play mafia on CFC?

[davesaz]

VOTE: unvote

Wasn't fond of the 'Here, let me link other people's theories on something that's being asked of

me

...'
But liked that you could follow it up with knowing the first-to-confirms given one of those linked explanations on why you'd think that. Was looking at the same pregame.

Unvotes just after RVS are scummy. It's an unnecessary defensive move that looks like "Hey, I'm doing something" when there's no need to.

VOTE: elle

You've been busted, my friend. Life is tough sometimes. I imagine your parents must be very dissapointed in you. Who are your partners?

Did you get what you wanted from this vote?

[davesaz]

I like for my first vote to be on someone I've played with before.

And why is that not me? I feel so sad.

Well, I can only vote for one person at a time.

Why are you worrying about the Masons and tossing around self-meta? It's more distracting than anything else.

Was there a satisfying answer to this question?

[davesaz]

There is a masons team, composed by two masons. They will recruit another member at any time in the game. Read the setup and Sample Role PMs.

Any thoughts beyond the setup speculation yet?

[davesaz]

Hm.

VOTE: davesaz

Ask less pointless questions.

Patience, grasshopper. The point will be clearer in time.

[davesaz]

If by "point" you mean "the rest of my teammates," then I'm all for patience.

This strikes me as something scum would say, trying to be clever.

Do you really think that?

Do you always jump to conclusions about whether there is a point to a question or not, or only when you're scum?

[davesaz]

@Riddleton:

VOTE: unvote

Wasn't fond of the 'Here, let me link other people's theories on something that's being asked of

me

...'
But liked that you could follow it up with knowing the first-to-confirms given one of those linked explanations on why you'd think that. Was looking at the same pregame.

Unvotes just after RVS are scummy. It's an unnecessary defensive move that looks like "Hey, I'm doing something" when there's no need to.

VOTE: elle

You've been busted, my friend. Life is tough sometimes. I imagine your parents must be very dissapointed in you. Who are your partners?

Did you get what you wanted from this vote?

You voted for elle. Did this post and vote have a purpose, and if there was one did you get anything from it?

[davesaz]

@davesaz: I see a lot of questions from you but you're not really supplying any opinions yourself. What do you think of Grib, riddle, and swag?

I hadn't had enough minutes at the same time to really do anything, at the time I posted those questions, so I didn't have an opinion on anyone.

The way Grib responded to my questions seemed like scum opportunism, since there is nothing alignment indicative in starting with simple questions. But it's only a null-scum at most, town could do that to see if the target feels pressured by the vote. Riddle either missed my question or decided not to answer. (Pedit: Ok, there's an answer now but I haven't had a chance to see how that answer meshes with his later activity)

Still haven't had enough time to really read anyone, other than scan for my name and see if my questions got replies. I did catch two themes that I can respond to in a general way.

Don't remember whose topic the "people who haven't confirmed are making scum plans" thing was. It's a decent conversation starter but should not be used as any kind of real logic, especially at holiday time. There's a pretty good chance that the late confirmers were just traveling or otherwise prevented from being on internet at all. You can't read anything directly into the timing, and even reaction testing off it is chancy given the likelihood that people may be annoyed you're not making allowances for the season.

The setup speculation happens all the time, especially when players haven't experienced this particular setup but also as a form of role fishing in hopes that newbs might not know they can reveal their role inadvertently. It isn't strongly indicative of alignment, but the people who focus on it the most get put in my "watch closely" pile, as do the ones who are present but don't comment on it at all.

Analysis to follow, as I get more time to actually do the research and not just skim.

[davesaz]

The underlining thing isn't working for me. Could you quote, edit the quote down to the part you're responding to, and then put your response outside the quote? It's not that hard to get it right and you can always hit preview to clean up any tag mistakes.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Whatisswag

fuck
off
asshole

[davesaz]

There is nothing "useless" about the way I'm playing. I get upset when people dismiss my style, and even more so when they accuse me of lying when I'm not. Calling it useless again after I've said it had a purpose is doing exactly that...

[davesaz]

I would say that Grib is town if dave is scum. And by the logic that scum likes to ignore their scum partners (which happens very oftenly), Green and NJAC are both not scum. I would think that one of {Corpses, elle, ILF} is his partner.

It is far too early to be doing this kind of association as town, but I have seen scum go this route many times to give themselves early justification for later mislynches. Scum also like to bring up negative association logic early to show town they're not connected to their partners.

[davesaz]

Yes, the vote had a purpose. As I said in the post you quoted, "Unvotes just after RVS are scummy. It's an unnecessary defensive move that looks like "Hey, I'm doing something" when there's no need to.". It's a serious vote.

What's your read one Elle now? I found it weird that you voted her for something that you say is scummy, did nothing afterwards with regard to her, and sheeped a wagon. But when asked whether the vote had a purpose and if you were satisfied with the result, you said the vote was serious.

[davesaz]

Makes sense.

Right now, I'm actually leaning towards a Riddle lynch. With the way they've interacted, I would not be surprised if both were in cohorts. They don't seem town enough to me to be a Mason team so that leaves a scum team. How I see it, Swagilicious is trying to distance himself from Riddle and Riddle is trying to protect McPimpSwag. However, I'm not so positive on Swaggy distancing himself from Riddle, it's possible SwaggersMcGee just doesn't have much of an opinion on Riddle, which I suppose is understandable because I don't have a strong opinion on EVERYONE yet.

What do you think of Swag's associations post 229?

[davesaz]

@Cheetory6: Have you caught up to the whole game? How did you choose the (roughly 6) people you've interacted with or focused on so far?

[davesaz]

I agree with swag, most of dave's posts have been light-hearted questions that don't spark too much discussion. However, I'm inclined to think it's playstyle as in some people like to start games taking a passive stance and don't get too involved into later on in the game.

Hmm, dave starts out more positively in the prev game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=59151

Why? 1 possible reason I think is still because this is early stages of the game.

@davesaz

hope you contribute with opinions and not questions. That will get my scum read off you.

Comparing early game activity to a replace-in where there were 470 posts to respond to at the time of my first post...
The quality and trajectory of the discussion will have an impact as well.

They are serious questions, and the answers should tell me things about the players who respond. Lack of response will tell me things about those who don't. This is different from how others are approaching it, but different does not imply scummy.

[davesaz]

I like for my first vote to be on someone I've played with before.

And why is that not me? I feel so sad.

Well, I can only vote for one person at a time.

Why are you worrying about the Masons and tossing around self-meta? It's more distracting than anything else.

Seems like Grib does not care about the presence of masons, which makes him look town.

But also, I see the Grib completely ignores elle and Corpses. Possible scum team?

I think this is a bit of a misrepresentation of Grib's post. What Grib said implied nothing about whether he cares about the Masons. What he said was that discussing masons and self-meta is distracting. I happen to agree with that.

I can't help but notice that you're looking for associations pretty much continuously. This setup is one where it's anti-town to do too much association pre-flip. In fact, stating associations and seeing what you get for reactions is one of the scum tactics for dealing with masons. Note: since you went to the effort to find my previous game in this setup you'll note that I got it wrong in that game. I'm a fast learner.

In case you haven't figured it out from my other posting, my vote is not currently an OMGUS. I'm seeing scummy things that have nothing to do with you incorrectly scum reading my playstyle.

[davesaz]

@Riddle:

I'd recruit a null read. Because there's no weak modifier (ie. I don't die if I misrecruit) it basically acts as a 1-shot cop.

How long did it take for you to come up with this response?

Not so long. I've been thinking about this before the game began.

Can you clarify that a little? How far back were you thinking about it?

[davesaz]

@Grib:

Telling masons to be "dropping tells that they're not masons (not enough to be scummy ofc)" has no actual value because that is the obvious, logical play of being a mason. However, it's an action that looks like it has value because Corpses is supporting a play that benefits masons staying alive. So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Okay, so you think it doesn't have any value. That's fair. But if you actually go back and look at the interaction as it occurred, Corpses' post was in response to what he perceived as Masonfishing on Whatisswag's part. It wasn't an unprompted "hey guys Masons should totally

not

act like Masons duh" post.

Yes, I know. I think the context in which this particular action of Corpses's arose is also suspicious. I don't like Corpses's interaction with swag, remember? His fight with swag over the hypoclaim is part of why I'm voting him.

Do you see them as both scummy from that interaction, and you're just voting the more scummy?

[davesaz]

@Riddle:

I know you've seen Fairies' suspicions of you, as you have responded to her about other things. Why shouldn't I understand your avoidance of her suspicions as a scum tactic?

I see that Riddle replied to this, so a couple followups.

Why do you think ignoring / not responding to suspicions, especially isolated ones which are not pursued, would be more likely to come from scum than town?

Is there other behavior regarding suspicions that someone had raised that would reinforce your thinking that ignoring/not responding is scummy? Things that would reduce/offset it?

[davesaz]

I think this is a pretty good line of suspicion. However, what's your theory as to why swag-scum would vocalize this associative analysis if it's being used simply to out the masons?

Scum could try to associate townies to see which ones resist being associated with each other. Of course it probably wouldn't work if the masons are smart about it...

[davesaz]

If not, I'd like you to at least look over Elle and tell me what you think of her play thus far.

219 and 236 look reasonable, but there isn't really enough said to get a full read.

[davesaz]

messed up the quotes, the inner box isn't supposed to be there.

[davesaz]

Is there other behavior regarding suspicions that someone had raised that would reinforce your thinking that ignoring/not responding is scummy? Things that would reduce/offset it?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. If you're asking have I seen scum ignore suspicions directed at them before, I don't recall any specific instance.

Player A says B is suspicious. B ignores / doesn't respond to the suspicion. I think you were also saying that B was interacting with A regarding other topics.
I was asking if there are other things B might do that would increase / decrease whether it's scummy to ignore/not respond.

[davesaz]

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

To be honest, I think either one is possible.

[davesaz]

It is not about providing information. it is about the fact that he was not stating opinions.

Scum already know they can go after anyone. It's even good play to go after their partners.
What would give you the idea that it would be scum play to not give opinions?

[davesaz]

186 Where I explicitly said

I had not had time

to do analysis?
Do you even realize that you couldn't do a better job of making yourself look scummier if you were trying to do that on purpose?

[davesaz]

I dont take real life as an excuse, I am sorry.

Do you have scum reads on the half of the player list who have barely posted anything?

[davesaz]

I probably wouldn't have had much of a problem with your pressure on Whatisswag if it weren't for this. You voted him because he upset you, and now you're going back and suddenly finding reasons for him being scummy. It just seems more convenient/lazy than genuine.

And then you felt the need to explicitly justify it here:

In case you haven't figured it out from my other posting, my vote is not currently an OMGUS. I'm seeing scummy things that have nothing to do with you incorrectly scum reading my playstyle.

when I'm pretty sure nobody accused you of OMGUS'ing.

1. I use an argument technique that I call disarming the opposition. It consists of anticipating things the opposition may use in rebuttal, and preempting them.

2. I put some of the other reasons in the same post, before the portion you quoted.

3. There is an inconsistency between how Whatisswag is treating my posting and several others who have done much less.

[davesaz]

@dave, what makes you think swag is scum making a bad argument as opposed to town making a bad argument? (I do agree this is a bad push, by the way.)

At this point the push on me has very little to do with it. Yes, I was annoyed that he was effectively calling me a liar, but it wouldn't be the first time town has acted similarly. There have been several other things that swag has done that are scummier. See the post that Grib partially quoted, for some of them.

I also examined my case for possible conf. bias, and see that others have called swag on the same points -- not necessarily all at the same time, but at various times.

[davesaz]

Give me a read on elle with reasoning, when you get the time. I know you were asked this recently:
She has almost 30 posts. Surely there's something in there that makes you think she's leaning town or scum?

Null leaning scum. At the point in time of my previous answer, she was null-town. Since then the only things she has posted have been to take my side in my push on swag. She even asked if I thought her defending me was town or scum. This doesn't seem very town to me, it's like she wanted to know if it was safe to continue or not.

[davesaz]

2. Yes, I saw them. What I'm questioning is whether you were inspired to start scumreading Whatisswag before or after he insulted you.

There's no real way to prove it either way, so I'm going to drop it

.

Bolded part is town thinking. IMO If more town thought that way there would be a lot fewer TvTs and a lot more scum caught.

A much better question is, would I have seen it if I hadn't felt insulted? I believe I would have, but the timing might have been different. I'm certainly not trying to hide that I hadn't done much proactively before that.

I saw the suggestion on Elle (and am quite capable of reading between the lines to see what you're

really

looking for), but it's time to sleep.

[davesaz]

@Kaboose:

Town gains nothing by lynching town. I play as town with a primary objective of lynching scum and a secondary objective of becoming obvtown (ie not being lynched).

To do so, I try to anticipate how both town and scum might scum read me.
That scum do this too is immaterial, other than to say that doing it is not alignment indicative for me.

[davesaz]

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Someone has found an action scummy in the past. The next time I do it, I anticipate someone will again. I'm not predicting which people will see a given action as scummy, I'm explaining anything I think it's a reasonably high percentage that anyone might think is scummy.

[davesaz]

You might plausibly say it's unnecessary for me to do that as town where as scum I'd think it is necessary, but you'd be wrong.
As I said, I have a secondary personal goal as town to be a town read so that fellow town don't waste their time trying to lynch me.

[davesaz]

@elle: I think you dodged the most telling part of the post of mine that you quoted. It doesn't look like you're doing anything else which isn't followup on the swag read.

[davesaz]

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

Does this go with the post it appears in, or did you perhaps intend to say more between the body of the post and this line?

[davesaz]

Disregard 336, I think I found the reference...
There are 3 of us converging on the same question btw.

[davesaz]

@Mod: You have Hannibal still voting for swag after the replacement voted elle

Unrelated to the correction, swag's more recent posting makes me quite a bit more comfortable about him. Not quite to the point that I'm sold on him being town, but not scummy enough to warrant my vote right now.
UNVOTE:

I'm not bothered by elle defending per se, but the way she's defending adds to the somewhat scummy vibe I got from the way she went about defending me / attacking swag.
VOTE: elleheathen

Mod edit: Good catch! Thanks, fixed

[davesaz]

@elle, point 1 of my 314 is relating to how I post in general, not just to how I scum hunt.

My updated read on you was derived mainly from how you were interacting with other people during a time I was considerably less active. I would only say it's slightly more reliable than gut, or in other words not especially solid.

[davesaz]

I finally feel pretty solid about a scumread and everyone starts getting cold feet q.q

LR and Kaboose

, can you give thoughts on elle's read on dave?

Which scumread are you referring to here?

[davesaz]

Maybe he's reading me from my posting to others but again,

ughhh

.

The majority of why he's leaning scum there is because of what I see as him not even

trying

to read me. So, '

If you're town

, you should at least

try

to read me better' because if he's not, I can see why he's not trying to read me at all.

The inside quote was somewhat on target. I do read people by their interactions with others, more than by interacting with them myself. My RL personality is like that too. In technical/leadership situations I drive things in the direction I want them to go in, but in social situations I tend to listen 3-4x as much as I talk. Consequently, at times it's a real challenge to meet the minimum posting level for games.

I'm often told that this kind of revelation is not terribly useful here because it's self meta.

[davesaz]

I think I missed the post where you said why.

[davesaz]

I think it's missing completely. Care to enlighten me?

[davesaz]

OK, we've been over that before. Swag pissed me off. When I looked at him, it turned out he was scummy on top of having pissed me off. Really don't see how that's "manufactured".

I took your post to be a total sheep job based on what is now really old news BTW.

[davesaz]

I finally have enough time to be a bit more definitive.

Green Crayons looks town. I liked 484, 485, 570, 573 for example.

NJAC's time is running out. I think being willing to replace out if availability isn't there is a good move but isn't necessarily alignment indicative.

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:

Let's hold his toes over the coals and see if he talks Grib.

VOTE: NJAC

What's the real reason for this vote? Surely you don't think Grib needs help pushing people, and it's doubtful that a joke vote is going to make NJAC talk. So I'm trying to figure out what else you might want to do.

[davesaz]

In the context of a game of mafia, it isn't fast. Fast would be within one or two pages.

Who do you think is scum on elle's wagon?

dave probably, for the L-2 vote and also because I town read Cheet and Lone ranger and probably you too.

What if corpses is scum? Would that scenario change your perspective on the wagon?

[davesaz]

I expected to make several more posts, but got interrupted.

[davesaz]

Of those 5, which are you most confident of being scum?

Let's explore the cheetory read. I could go back and reread, but could you summarize what makes him scummy?

[davesaz]

From the way you're talking, it sounds like you found something in my town meta which matched this game. While it can sometimes be a good way to get a read, using meta is not 100% reliable. In particular it can be very weak when there is no scum meta to compare to.

[davesaz]

Dave's response to Green's vote irks me. Honestly gives me a bit of an impression that he was actively lurking, saw GC's vote, felt the need to call it out and then made other posts because he was worried that people would give him flak for actively lurking.

This is an accurate interpretation of events, but being worried about taking flak isn't alignment indicative for me. If anything I worry more about it as town than as scum, though I can't suggest checking my scum meta on this site.

[davesaz]

Of those 5, which are you most confident of being scum?

Let's explore the cheetory read. I could go back and reread, but could you summarize what makes him scummy?

What was yours? You never said when asked.
I think it would benefit you more to actually go back and read.

Fair enough. I see Cheetory asking questions to determine alignment, and pointing out things that don't logically make sense in others replies. As scum he could easily have stopped asking questions once he had something scummy enough as evidence to push a mislynch. Instead, he gives allowances that there could be a misunderstanding and looks for clarifications. This shows town motivation. I admit though that I didn't go back through the entire game at this time.

I assume your read on Cheetory is based mainly on how he's digging at your answers to questions? I also found your answers to be somewhat inconsistent -- if you make allowances for people having trouble understanding what you wrote, does that change your impression of their motivation in seeking clarification?

---

It appears likely at least one scum is in the set of people lurking more than I had been, and it's even possible that all of them are in that pool.

I'm beginning to think that swag and elle could both be town, and the faintly scummy things I saw were more playstyle issues.

[davesaz]

elle, comments on my post about Cheetory?

[davesaz]

elle, comments on my post about Cheetory?

Mostly I just find it curious that you're trying to work with me to 'explore my Cheetory read' - when he's your townread and I'm your scumread.

I wasn't going to

bother

commenting as you saying:

I assume your read on Cheetory is based mainly on how he's digging at your answers to questions?

says to me that you didn't

bother

to actually read it if you have to

assume

.

And:

I also found your answers to be somewhat inconsistent -- if you make allowances for people having trouble understanding what you wrote, does that change your impression of their motivation in seeking clarification?

You'll have to be more clear if you're expecting a response.
What answers? Inconsistence with what? Specific instance instead of generalization?

Maybe it's time for me to be blunt too.

I read your whole ISO, and I can't find a single post where you come right out and say cheetory is scummy and why. You say he's in your "willing to vote" pile and that's as close as you come.

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:

On hold for replacements.

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:

On hold for replacements.

Why did you feel the need to make this post?

Flip that question, why would it be an issue?

[davesaz]

I mean, I wouldn't have even have accepted this game if I'd gotten a scum role pm - I take it that serious. So it takes me a bit - I hesitate.

This is a bit bothersome. You would have failed to confirm / replaced out if you got a scum PM? You might be honestly relating how you feel, but it's not the type of thing that's going to give you town credibility.

[davesaz]

Wasn't supposed to be in it?

[davesaz]

I know you're tired of empty promises but I think I'll finally have the time to fully catch up during this weekend. I thought of asking to be replaced but seeing all the replacements, and considering that I really want to play this game, I'll play to my best from now on.

Even if you have to do it in sections, anything with content would help.

[davesaz]

The lull in activity due to needing replacements came at a good time for me, as things got extremely busy at work and home.

[davesaz]

If we're going to compromise on an inactive, I see NJAC's prod dodging as scummier than the disappearing act players.
Of the replacement pending players, I saw Corpses as a lot more likely to be scum than Riddleton.
The odds favor at least one scum being in the active players but it's hard to identify which one with the big slowdown.

Town is really going to need a lynch, to at least do VCA/NKA. In this environment a no-lynch is certainly bad and might be disastrous.

[davesaz]

Okay three days off in a row. Tomorrow illbe caught up here and ready to go!

Sadly, this hasn't happened yet.

[davesaz]

@Cheetory: I was making one last attempt to reread and see if anything brilliant developed. And prodding Mala to do the same.

PEdit: @LR, your references to mason targets, and willingness to be recruited, are admirable. But I'm concerned about the role fishing aspect of that kind of discussion, which may not be intentional on your part. An insufficiently cautious mason might respond to it in a way that inadvertently outs themselves. I think we're best off leaving it to their judgment.

Pedit2: I was going to vote NJAC but a couple votes came in. Need to count first, don't want a derphammer without claim.

[davesaz]

By my count there are 5 votes. Kaboose, Cheetory, GC, LR, Grib

VOTE: NJAC

L-1

[davesaz]

Wonder if CptPicard actually picked up the role.

[davesaz]

@dave:

I skimmed your ISO and your biggest active lead as to who may be scum appears to be "maybe someone who is lurking."

How is this not a scum copout? VOTE: dave

Have I posted today? Any VCA, or NKA, anything? No?
How many total posts in the week (or more) prior to end of day, while we were waiting for replacements? Not many, right?

I don't pull reads out of my ass and throw them on the table. It's gonna take a couple pages of D2 plus 5-10 posts from replacements (at least) before I'm ready to get going.

This isn't a D2 RVS. I'll have updated reads when I'm ready, and not a minute before.

[davesaz]

Elle would have a really good reason to know there are two scum on that wagon if she's the third.

Jumping on LR with a "how do you know there are 3 scum" is the type of reaction you could expect from someone who either plays closed setups or didn't read the setup at the beginning. Scum who know how many there are on their team have less incentive to look in the OP and see that this is spelled out in the setup.

Next step: Look to see if elle has made any other wrong assumptions about the setup.

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

VOTE: elleheathen

[davesaz]

EBWOP: day 2

[davesaz]

@dave:

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

I'm not following what you are saying.

It is a VT claim to say you're not recruited. VT claims in a mason game narrow down the range of players who might be mason, and scum need to identify masons to eliminate them before LYLO (assuming the game gets that far). There is no good town motivation to claim, especially this early in the day.

There are scum reasons for doing it, in particular to fish for mason reactions like "how do you know anyone was recruited". Masons should keep their mouths shut BTW.

Pedit: ok, you got the 1st paragraph, 2nd paragraph is the scum motivation

[davesaz]

Regarding Cheetory as the NK, my thought on that is that scum thought he's the most town, and if masons were going for a confirmed townie they want to kill him off before he can be confirmed. That scenario is exactly what happened in my previous game in this setup. Difference being, in that game the masons recruited the same person that scum killed resulting in a dead recruited mason.

Another tip from that game, speculating on who Cheetory's partner is, and on who (if anyone) was recruited, just helps scum. Town needs to steer totally away from that subject and hunt scum as though the masons are not here at all. You can look for the associations but try to make a case without using them.

[davesaz]

I also noticed a change in elle's posting. She could have twigged to what was causing people to scum read her and adapted. If the posts in the middle look more town but both ends are scummy, it's a strong indicator to me that the underlying play is scum.

[davesaz]

dave, how do you feel about elle's multiple attempts at buddying you? I can't recall if I ever asked.

Not comfortable at all. She even asked me how I felt, to which I replied could be either scum or town. I know that was noncommital, it was intended to draw out more discussion which could either confirm the discomfort or explain it.

I would have sworn I'd replied to this question before, but can't find it. If it was asked I must have missed it.

[davesaz]

Umm, I probably would have missed this without the previous posts, but one way to read 968 is coaching elle to shut up.
Not enough to make a case by itself, but interesting.

[davesaz]

dave, how do you feel about elle's multiple attempts at buddying you? I can't recall if I ever asked.

Not comfortable at all.

She even asked me how I felt, to which I replied could be either scum or town. I know that was noncommital, it was intended to draw out more discussion which could either confirm the discomfort or explain it.

I would have sworn I'd replied to this question before, but can't find it. If it was asked I must have missed it.

Bolded for emphasis. It felt like she was trying a quid pro quo approach, I'll town read you if you'll town read me. Then when I slid towards scum reading her, she was saying it's strange that I would do that instead of working with her so that she could alleviate my concerns. She stopped doing it (IIRC) and then made a few posts that looked town. In retrospect it looks like she changed tactics to stop the slide.

[davesaz]

OK, I skimmed, that, WTF'd and double taked, and skimmed to the end.

No time to take a deep look. Agree mason and possible recruited mason keep their mouths zipped for now.

[davesaz]

I read the last day+ and it added confusion. Must take family to appointments, will have to reread later.

[davesaz]

Gosh, I've gotten really behind on this one.

The elle vote is quite stale and needs to be revisited.
UNVOTE:

[davesaz]

That was me being actually (RL) upset at being called useless, and indirectly called a liar when it was repeated after I said there was a point to my questions.
I can confirm that it has nothing to do with a "scum leading town" tell, and trying to link to that is misguided. Undecided on whether making that link at this time is scummy.
I then said that after getting ticked off I did a slow read through of swag up to that point and it looked scummy independent of the rage that prompted me to look.

@Kaboose -- I think the reference is to "meta data" threads.
@Swag -- It's ok to reference events in completed games.

[davesaz]

Oh, forgot I'd even posted in that forum.

Those are fine too.

[davesaz]

OK, so the reason I've been quiet is I've been trying to figure out why it wasn't obvious to immediately lynch either Swag or Kaboose. Too many people shut down on that and it implied that some other subtext was going on, but I was having no luck identifying it.

[davesaz]

Catchup and VCA to come. My RL spike couldn't have been at a worse time.

[davesaz]

I looked at Kaboose's ISO for interactions. The Kaboose vs Awesome/Mala interaction is interesting.

Awesome was the player who responded to Kaboose's "wah nobody voted me in RVS" in 155.
In 520 and 565, Kaboose is defending awesome.
In 735, Kaboose questions a fast town read on Mala.
In 759 Kaboose posts about LR's reads and notes that awesome as scum was erased by 5 Mala posts.
In 767 and 768 the interaction with LR makes me think LR could also be on the team but this is weaker.
In 945, Kaboose is prompting Heartless that LR townread Mala.

When I looked through awesome and Mala I don't see a whole lot of town there.

VOTE: Malakittens

[davesaz]

I call 'em like I see 'em, though I'm open to discussion on whether it is accurate or not. I see pretty clear evidence of Kaboose trying hard to ensure the slot is townread.

I'm also willing to look at swag's observations. I didn't notice it, whatever it is, as clearly as I noticed awesome/Mala. If you don't want to spoil my independent observation, feel free to hold off explaining what to look for.

[davesaz]

I think it's just two approaches, you can either post the reasons and look for comments like I did, or be mysterious. When being mysterious it's less subject to unintended confbias if we find it independently. At some point we'll have to just ignore that issue, or it won't be possible to make progress. OTOH going the mysterious route can also plant seeds for others to find and then the instigator can say "yep, that's it". So this sword is pretty double sided.

[davesaz]

Just search Kaboose's ISO and Ctrl+f "gc" or "green". You will see why they are partners.

Just search Kaboose's ISO and Ctrl+f "gc" or "green". You will see why they are partners.

just did this and i see what you're saying

Spoiler:

swag already made his GC-is-scum-because-of-Kaboose-interactions in Post 1061.

I responded in Post 1064.

Heartless, Swag: The posts that GC pointed to look like misdirection to me. I looked at things Kaboose said about GC. In particular, I looked at the progression of 323 (K hasn't noticed GC), 447 (no opinion), 756 (defends), 763 (K defends GC, over Mala).

Also we have GC not wanting to be recruited in 802/807, and in 1711 seems to be voting Kaboose against his will, possible bus. Then we have the deflection in 1842 posted above.

Are these the same observations? Please post pointers to the things you're seeing.

I also see plenty where GC could be distancing from Mala.

[davesaz]

I find out by Green's ISO, that he is actually rather consistent with his reads. VOTE: Malakittens

Were the things I posted at all related to the reason you said "just read his ISO"?

Would also like to see if Heartless found the same things or not.

[davesaz]

wrt = with respect to / with regard to

[davesaz]

@heartless: already found the Mala stuff, didn't look at Riddle/Titus.

[davesaz]

Also Dave hasn't spoken to me either.

I'm fairly certain that I have, though I'd have to ISO dive to confirm.

[davesaz]

Hmm, it's more than zero but not much more.

[davesaz]

So I don't have to go back and find it, can you post a Titus case please?

[davesaz]

Heartless, Swag: I think I'm still waiting for an answer on the GC vs Kaboose interactions. Did I pick out the same things that you were talking about, or not?

Titus: I actually do put some weight on the blizzard, but I also know pretty well when the impact started and ended given part of my work team lives in that area. Not all of Mala's inactive time corresponds with weather events.

It's actually kinda funny that you're talking about not being in a hurry to lynch Mala. Unless I missed an unvote, you're sitting at L-1.

[davesaz]

Just search Kaboose's ISO and Ctrl+f "gc" or "green". You will see why they are partners.

just did this and i see what you're saying

I'm looking for you to say exactly what you meant by this.

[davesaz]

Thanks. It wasn't clear if you were downplaying the stuff I was seeing, or confirming that it was the same stuff and downplaying it.
Sometimes that kind of thing is all there is to go on.

Moving along, I posted some stuff on Mala. I presume that you find it weaker than the Titus case? Beyond Titus who would be your next scum reads?

[davesaz]

Hi.

Still really want to lynch Mala.

Care to explain why?

What's your read on Titus and GC?

[davesaz]

Aww, I saw the thread opened and almost voted right then, but was on the way out the door for some shopping.

GG!